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Is The Iron-Core Of An Electromagnet Overunity ?

Started by guest1289, February 22, 2017, 02:02:36 PM

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guest1289

February 22, 2017, 02:02:36 PM
    I had to correct the title of this thread, and also clarify/correct some errors I made when I posted the previous one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnet
QuoteA core can increase the magnetic field to thousands of times the strength of the field of the coil alone

   The quote above from wikipedia  seems to indicate it is overunity.

   But I remember seeing this subject discussed on another thread here( I can't find that thread at the moment ) in very recent months,    and they mentioned that the  'iron-core'  'concentrates' the field of the electric-coil,  they described a particular  electromagnet as having no range at all,  in other words it would only attract something to it, if the object to be attracted was actually  already touching the  electromagnet,  but I think the other main factor is how much surface area needs to already be touching between the electromagnet  and the object it is trying to attract,  before it will effectively attract it

      However, I thought that the  iron-cores in electromagnets actually function by having all their atoms/electrons  lined up in one  particular-direction by the field of the electric-coil,  so that if it is true to say that   "A core can increase the magnetic field to thousands of times the strength of the field of the coil alone"  then that may be the  best,  or  only( I don't know )  example of energy-amplification  via  geometric means,  that I know of.
     (  so there  must  reach a stage in the  iron-core,  where sufficient atoms/electrons have been lined up in one-particular  direction,   that there is then sufficient atoms/electrons lined up in  that-particular direction to force all the rest of the atoms/electrons in the  iron-core  to line up in  that-particular  direction  )

   Also
   -  What actually happens if you run a wire-loop from one side of the "iron-core" of the electromagnet to the other side of the "iron-core" ,  surely there is no impressive current produced.
         
  Also
   -  This also made me wonder about people's attempted overunity designs consisting of coils( air-cores ) inducing current in other coils( air-cores ), to make overunity-generators, 
        Is it possible that the coils( air-cores, secondary-coils ) being induced,  are functioning like  the    'iron-cores'  of  electromagnets "A core can increase the magnetic field to thousands of times the strength of the field of the coil alone" ,  that because of the  'correct' specifications'  of these  Secondary-Coils/Induced-Coils( wire-thickness, diameters, I don't know ),  that they are able to achieve a greater output than the input of the  primary-coils( air-cores ).
          (  And yes, I realize that often in these designs,  they are often going for the resonance-effect,  but who knows if the resonance effect could be connected( or mistaken for ) to the iron-core effect and how,  you could probably come up with 10 different theories )

       This is a subject I know nothing about.

forest

#1
February 23, 2017, 11:28:48 AM
Congratulations ! You have found it! The overunity is magnetic field, because magnetic field is the source of energy. If you concentrate or enlarge or magnify magnetic field by any way , you find overunity (no, not so easy, you have to know how to tap it)

guest1289

#2
March 05, 2017, 12:04:11 PM
Regardless of  electromagnets( with iron-cores ) powered by very-small batteries,  that can attract surprisingly very heavy weights.

I am not totally sure if  electromagnets( with iron-cores ), actually produce overunty  ?
-  They need input-current
-  Everything I read and common sense says that the strength of an electromagnet( with an iron-core ) seems directly proportional to the  input-current.
   Maybe if you unraveled the wire making up the electric-coil of an  electromagnet,  and then use some sort of viewer to measure all of the  magnetic-field/electromagnetic-field-? of that wire,  in order to determine if just the  electric-wire  by itself could  theoretically  produce  a  magnetic-field/electromagnetic-field-?  just as strong as the one it induces in an  'iron-core'.

However, 
- I have also read that the  coil  of an electromagnet( with an iron-core ) has to be supplied with  'enough'  input power to overcome the  'resistance' of the  'iron-core' ,  before that  'iron-core'  will emit any  magnetic-field. 
       The stage at which it reaches overunity ?
       ( I assume anyone attempting to build a free-energy generator,  should never supply the coil  with more power than it needs to overcome the  'resistance' of the  'iron-core',  otherwise  'inefficiency' could be a factor )
  __________________

If An  Electromagnet  Produces  Overunity,   Then,   Can  A  Temporary-Magnet( made of an Iron-Core being induced by a  Permanent-Magnet/non-electric magnet),   Also  Produce  Overunity ?

An  Electric-Coil  Can Turn An  Iron-Core  Into A  'Temporary-Magnet',  And,  A  Permanent-Magnet  Can Also Turn An  Iron-Core  Into A  'Temporary-Magnet',  But  Is There A  Difference.

The  'electromagnetic-field'  emitted by the wire which makes up the coil  of an Electromagnet,  is actually rotating,  it is not a  static  magnetic-field  like that of a  Permanent-Magnet. 
     The  'electromagnetic-field'  emitted by the coil of  the  Electromagnet   contains an  'Electric-Field' which  'may'  or may not be rotating,    and that  'Electric-Field'  'may'  or may not be rotating along a different,  or identical axis,  to that of the  magnetic-field  being emitted.
     ( Can / should,    that  'Electric-Field' be viewed  completely separately to the  Magnetic-Field/Electromagnetic-field?  being emitted  ?  )
     This  rotating  'electromagnetic-field'  is  precisely the reason why  Faraday's first electric-motor worked,  and why that motor can not function just by using  permanent-magnets  alone. 

  So,  is  the 'Electric-field'  which  'may'  or may not be rotating,  causing/generating a magnetic-field in the  iron-core,  or rather,  an  'additional'  magnetic-field  in the  iron-core ?

   
QuoteI have read that the  coil  of an electromagnet( with an iron-core ) has to be supplied with  'enough'  input power to overcome the  'resistance' of the  'iron-core' ,  before that  'iron-core'  will emit any  magnetic-field.
The  Temporary-Magnet( made of an Iron-Core )  Being Induced By A   Permanent-Magnet( Non-Electric )  'Equivalent' of  "has to be supplied with  'enough'  input power to overcome the  'resistance' of the  'iron-core"  ,   would be to slowly push a  'Permanent-Magnet' toward an 'Iron-Core' and see at what distance it can turn the  'Iron-Core' into a  Temporary-Magnet.
  __________________

  The Following Is An Alternate Theory I Made,  Which I Assume Has No Validity.

  Although This Theory Can Relate To Electromagnets Being Powered By Smooth / Steady Current Like That From Chemical-Batteries,  admittedly,  it more strongly relates to the emission of electromagnetic-fields  from  electrical-conductors,  and to electrical-resistance.

    That theory is that  the  'electromagnetic-field'  emitted by electric-wires,  and what we call electrical-resistance ( the heat from  electric-heating-elements in stoves, and light from old light-bulb-filaments ),  is  actually generated  by  electromagnetic-eddies  occurring inside of the  electric-wire/conductors,   'BECAUSE',   all the power sources we use,   including  'Chemical-Batteries,   are actually producing power at a   frequency which is not  smooth-enough/steady-enough  to  prevent that  power  from  causing  microscopic electromagnetic-eddies  inside of the  electric-wire/conductors.

   The main reason I came up with this  theory  is because I  can not find 'anywhere',  any mention of what is the  'Frequency' of the power given by  'Chemical-Batteries',  in other words,   where on those  charts/diagrams of the electromagnetic-spectrum( which go from radio-waves to light-waves and higher etc ),  is the 'Frequency' of the power given by  'Chemical-Batteries'.
   (  Of course I would assume that 'Chemical-Batteries' have no frequency, that it is just completely  smooth/steady  power,   but is that actually true,  what if you had a battery containing such a  small amount of liquid( say 50 or 100 atoms of battery fluid ),  then could you start detecting a frequency            )

   (  So this could mean that  electromagnetic-eddies  are  generated in the 'iron-core' of an electromagnet,  which may make it a  stronger  'Temporary-Magnet'  than a   'Temporary-Magnet' which is just being induced by a  permanent-magnet( non-electric).
       However,  what if even  permanent-magnets  have a frequency,   For-Example,  a  permanent-magnet  made of only  5-atoms,  but even in that example,  I cannot see why it would have any type of frequency,  but of course thats something I know nothing about. )

dieter

#3
March 05, 2017, 12:40:41 PM
The iron core is passive and only helps to focus the field of the coil. It does that by offering high permeability to the surroundings. In AC induction this helps to guide a polarity flip and its flux change trough the entire space between core and the theoretical coreless field. It reduces stray fields and increases efficiency.


In a dc magnet utilizing Leedskalnins PMH there are more aspects to it, but I yet don't see any overunity features.
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