The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....

[Magluvin]

"When the swicth first opens there is a certain amount of magentic energy in the core that has to go somewhere.  One more time, the very high voltage secondary initiates a plasma spark just like for the simpler circuit. " 

Ok, I can ride with that part, except for.....

You say the magnetic field has to go somewhere when the switch is opened...  Here you are neglecting that the collapsing field can induce the primary also. The secondary is not the only coil in the container and the battery with the switch open is no longer in opposition to collapse current flow from the primary as it will have a much higher voltage from the collapse than the battery voltage.  This is where the cap gets charged to a higher voltage than 12v. The cap can be  rated at up to 630v AC.  HMM why is that I wonder??    630v vs 12v?  AC?  Strange isnt it?   Seems like a strange rating for a cap that would only encounter max voltage provided by the battery as MH says in his explanation......    If there is only the dc currents and no ac or any resonant oscillations, except the little ringing artifacts in the secondary as Mh claims, then why the need for a cap with such ratings?..  Doesnt look good here at all dude, Doesnt look good..  I tell you time and again the I will beat you with your own words. And here you provide a lot of material for me to do so.  In the least it shows you do not understand the circuit, the operations of inductance and the operations of the cap per its value and its ratings. In the worst case you do know how it works and try to discredit me and my claims at any cost with inmaginary fake news explanations. And finally you completely neglect the LC circuit that forms when the switch opens. You made big fun of Tesla and insulted his intelligence in Pm and in other threads in the past. You need to go back and let his writings teach you some things.


Mags

[Magluvin]

"When the swicth first opens there is a certain amount of magentic energy in the core that has to go somewhere.  One more time, the very high voltage secondary initiates a plasma spark just like for the simpler circuit. " 

Ok, I can ride with that part, except for.....

You say the magnetic field has to go somewhere when the switch is opened...  Here you are neglecting that the collapsing field can induce the primary also. The secondary is not the only coil in the container and the battery with the switch open is no longer in opposition to collapse current flow from the primary as it will have a much higher voltage from the collapse than the battery voltage.  This is where the cap gets charged to a higher voltage than 12v. The cap can be  rated at up to 630v AC.  HMM why is that I wonder??    630v vs 12v?  AC?  Strange isnt it?   Seems like a strange rating for a cap that would only encounter max voltage provided by the battery as MH says in his explanation......    If there is only the dc currents and no ac or any resonant oscillations, except the little ringing artifacts in the secondary as Mh claims, then why the need for a cap with such ratings?..  Doesnt look good here at all dude, Doesnt look good..  I tell you time and again the I will beat you with your own words. And here you provide a lot of material for me to do so.  In the least it shows you do not understand the circuit, the operations of inductance and the operations of the cap per its value and its ratings. In the worst case you do know how it works and try to discredit me and my claims at any cost with inmaginary fake news explanations. And finally you completely neglect the LC circuit that forms when the switch opens. You made big fun of Tesla and insulted his intelligence in Pm and in other threads in the past. You need to go back and let his writings teach you some things.


Mags

Now, when the primary collapse currents charge the cap to a high voltage(in the hundreds of volts), what will happen then? It will then discharge back into the primary and build the field again with a more robust field build due to the much higher voltage than the battery can provide, and then the field collapses again and charges the cap, then again the cap discharges into the coil, etc etc till the oscillation dies off. That is the effect of the resonant action that keeps the spark going longer and stronger. It is a gain by way of resonance compared to the circuit without the cap.

Bing. Finished. bada boom and bada bing. and bada boom then bada bing.  Ringy ding ding.  lol

Mags

[MileHigh]

Now, when the primary collapse currents charge the cap to a high voltage(in the hundreds of volts), what will happen then? It will then discharge back into the primary and build the field again with a more robust field build due to the much higher voltage than the battery can provide, and then the field collapses again and charges the cap, then again the cap discharges into the coil, etc etc till the oscillation dies off. That is the effect of the resonant action that keeps the spark going longer and stronger. It is a gain by way of resonance compared to the circuit without the cap.

Bing. Finished. bada boom and bada bing. and bada boom then bada bing.  Ringy ding ding.  lol

Mags

Nobody should count their chickens before they're hatched, don't you think?  I drew up my explanation for how the ignition circuit works without doing a single Google search.  It's simply fun to try to work things out in your head without relying on your computer.

And since my description involved a simple pulse circuit with a "one shot" mode, I could get away with describing the operation in text and have it such that a reader could follow along.  You, on the other hand, have done no such thing.  You haven't defined the full operation of the circuit, and in your case it really requires a timing diagram.  It also requires a description of the start of the "resonance" the voltages and currents, when the plasma burns take place, and so on and so forth.  You have done nothing like that and you are no place to claim anything.  If you want to be serious, then you have to up your game.  Compare my description of the circuit operation with your description which is nothing more than something like sports colour commentary.  And your "explanation" is arguably for a circuit operation which is more complicated than mine.

After reading your comments, especially about the high-voltage spec for the condenser, I knew right away my explanation could not be correct.  So I finally decided to do some searching.  Ordinary searches on ignition circuits yielded nothing.  So I searched on "role of the condenser in an ignition system" and I found this:

http://www.austin7club.org/Ignition%20Condensors.htm

<<<  This information was taken from a Delco Remy electrical equipment book.  >>

<<<
Technical Talk – Ignition Condensors

Basically the function of a condenser in a coil ignition circuit is to reduce the spark at the contact points as they open in the distributor and thus minimise burning and pitting of the points. Arcing is caused by the effect of self induction in the coil as the points interrupt the flow of current. The resultant collapse of the magnetic field produces a high voltage to be generated in the primary winding which then tends to flow across the points, thus causing burning or pitting. This current flows into the condenser and charges it as the points open the rapid collapse of the magnetic field produces this high voltage in the primary windings, which can be as high as 250 volts. This further charges the condenser and the consequent collapse of the field causes a high voltage to be induced in every turn of both primary and secondary windings. As the secondary winding has about 100 times the number of turns of the primary, the voltage can reach as high as 25000 volts. Normally this voltage is not reached as it is limited by various factors such as point gap, compression, engine revs. Etc. so only sufficient voltage is produced to produce a spark at the plug. As the spark is produced at the plug gap the energy in the coil, stored in the form of magnetic flux, begins to drain from the coil through the secondary circuit thus sustaining the spark for a fraction of a second or several degrees of crankshaft revolution. During this interval the condenser discharges back through the primary winding producing an oscillation of the current flow in the primary circuit for the brief interval that is required for the primary circuit to return to a state of equilibrium. The condenser DOES NOT DISCHARGE UNTIL AFTER the spark has occurred at the spark plug.  >>>

So here are my thoughts:

1.  Clearly, when the secondary starts to discharge into the plasma, the voltage on the primary goes up and the voltage is not clamped by the battery and the capacitor like I stated.

2.  The primary generates a good jolt of EMF during the plasma burn that could charge the capacitor in the area of 250 volts.  This means some of the magnetic energy in the core does not get burned off in the plasma, it also charges the capacitor.  So if there is even less available energy in the core, how does the spark get stronger?

3.  Note that the battery and the strong EMF from the primary are still working together - the voltages add and both the battery and the primary want to induce current to flow in the same direction.

4.  With the battery and the primary working together to charge the capacitor, the principles of superposition with respect to what is taking place will happen.  With the battery and the primary working together, while the plasma burn takes place in the secondary, the battery is still pumping power into the primary and that power is making the spark more robust.  And with higher current flowing in the loop because of the EMF assist from the primary, presumably it means the battery can pump even more power into the primary.

5.  This is the Magluvin party-pooper part of the quote, "The condenser DOES NOT DISCHARGE UNTIL AFTER the spark has occurred at the spark plug."  So it would appear that any observed LC resonance is only takes place after the burn is over and it has nothing to do with the burn.  It's just a boring old ring-down after all the action has taken place to burn off the unused waste energy in the circuit.

6.  I believe the fundamental principle of the "direct battery-plasma reaction" still applies, but it is too low-level nitty-gritty technical even for the information quoted in the link.  The increased energy in spark has to come from the battery.

Anyway, this was just one link, although it seems credible.  More research could always be done.

[Magluvin]

Nobody should count their chickens before they're hatched, don't you think?  I drew up my explanation for how the ignition circuit works without doing a single Google search.  It's simply fun to try to work things out in your head without relying on your computer.

And since my description involved a simple pulse circuit with a "one shot" mode, I could get away with describing the operation in text and have it such that a reader could follow along.  You, on the other hand, have done no such thing.  You haven't defined the full operation of the circuit, and in your case it really requires a timing diagram.  It also requires a description of the start of the "resonance" the voltages and currents, when the plasma burns take place, and so on and so forth.  You have done nothing like that and you are no place to claim anything.  If you want to be serious, then you have to up your game.  Compare my description of the circuit operation with your description which is nothing more than something like sports colour commentary.  And your "explanation" is arguably for a circuit operation which is more complicated than mine.

After reading your comments, especially about the high-voltage spec for the condenser, I knew right away my explanation could not be correct.  So I finally decided to do some searching.  Ordinary searches on ignition circuits yielded nothing.  So I searched on "role of the condenser in an ignition system" and I found this:

http://www.austin7club.org/Ignition%20Condensors.htm

<<<  This information was taken from a Delco Remy electrical equipment book.  >>

<<<
Technical Talk – Ignition Condensors

Basically the function of a condenser in a coil ignition circuit is to reduce the spark at the contact points as they open in the distributor and thus minimise burning and pitting of the points. Arcing is caused by the effect of self induction in the coil as the points interrupt the flow of current. The resultant collapse of the magnetic field produces a high voltage to be generated in the primary winding which then tends to flow across the points, thus causing burning or pitting. This current flows into the condenser and charges it as the points open the rapid collapse of the magnetic field produces this high voltage in the primary windings, which can be as high as 250 volts. This further charges the condenser and the consequent collapse of the field causes a high voltage to be induced in every turn of both primary and secondary windings. As the secondary winding has about 100 times the number of turns of the primary, the voltage can reach as high as 25000 volts. Normally this voltage is not reached as it is limited by various factors such as point gap, compression, engine revs. Etc. so only sufficient voltage is produced to produce a spark at the plug. As the spark is produced at the plug gap the energy in the coil, stored in the form of magnetic flux, begins to drain from the coil through the secondary circuit thus sustaining the spark for a fraction of a second or several degrees of crankshaft revolution. During this interval the condenser discharges back through the primary winding producing an oscillation of the current flow in the primary circuit for the brief interval that is required for the primary circuit to return to a state of equilibrium. The condenser DOES NOT DISCHARGE UNTIL AFTER the spark has occurred at the spark plug.  >>>

So here are my thoughts:

1.  Clearly, when the secondary starts to discharge into the plasma, the voltage on the primary goes up and the voltage is not clamped by the battery and the capacitor like I stated.

2.  The primary generates a good jolt of EMF during the plasma burn that could charge the capacitor in the area of 250 volts.  This means some of the magnetic energy in the core does not get burned off in the plasma, it also charges the capacitor.  So if there is even less available energy in the core, how does the spark get stronger?

3.  Note that the battery and the strong EMF from the primary are still working together - the voltages add and both the battery and the primary want to induce current to flow in the same direction.

4.  With the battery and the primary working together to charge the capacitor, the principles of superposition with respect to what is taking place will happen.  With the battery and the primary working together, while the plasma burn takes place in the secondary, the battery is still pumping power into the primary and that power is making the spark more robust.  And with higher current flowing in the loop because of the EMF assist from the primary, presumably it means the battery can pump even more power into the primary.

5.  This is the Magluvin party-pooper part of the quote, "The condenser DOES NOT DISCHARGE UNTIL AFTER the spark has occurred at the spark plug."  So it would appear that any observed LC resonance is only takes place after the burn is over and it has nothing to do with the burn.  It's just a boring old ring-down after all the action has taken place to burn off the unused waste energy in the circuit.

6.  I believe the fundamental principle of the "direct battery-plasma reaction" still applies, but it is too low-level nitty-gritty technical even for the information quoted in the link.  The increased energy in spark has to come from the battery.

Anyway, this was just one link, although it seems credible.  More research could always be done.

"The 0.22 microfarad 600 volt capacitor, if good, will be a good replacement although, as a rule, just about any magneto or point-type "condenser" will work.  From checking some of them, the capacitance ranges from about 0.15 to 0.47 microfarad at around 600 volts.

The oscillation of the coil/condenser circuit when the points open is called a "damped oscillation" or "ringing oscillation".  Many years ago, what were called spark transmitters used ringing oscillators tuned to relatively high frequencies to transmit Morse code.

"Ignition noise" is caused by this oscillation as ignition systems act like little transmitters.

Now, do you feel fully informed??  For myself, I feel much better having gotten that off my chest."


https://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=86615



I said they can be up to 600v.

Mags

[Magluvin]

Nobody should count their chickens before they're hatched, don't you think?  I drew up my explanation for how the ignition circuit works without doing a single Google search.  It's simply fun to try to work things out in your head without relying on your computer.

And since my description involved a simple pulse circuit with a "one shot" mode, I could get away with describing the operation in text and have it such that a reader could follow along.  You, on the other hand, have done no such thing.  You haven't defined the full operation of the circuit, and in your case it really requires a timing diagram.  It also requires a description of the start of the "resonance" the voltages and currents, when the plasma burns take place, and so on and so forth.  You have done nothing like that and you are no place to claim anything.  If you want to be serious, then you have to up your game.  Compare my description of the circuit operation with your description which is nothing more than something like sports colour commentary.  And your "explanation" is arguably for a circuit operation which is more complicated than mine.

After reading your comments, especially about the high-voltage spec for the condenser, I knew right away my explanation could not be correct.  So I finally decided to do some searching.  Ordinary searches on ignition circuits yielded nothing.  So I searched on "role of the condenser in an ignition system" and I found this:

http://www.austin7club.org/Ignition%20Condensors.htm

<<<  This information was taken from a Delco Remy electrical equipment book.  >>

<<<
Technical Talk – Ignition Condensors

Basically the function of a condenser in a coil ignition circuit is to reduce the spark at the contact points as they open in the distributor and thus minimise burning and pitting of the points. Arcing is caused by the effect of self induction in the coil as the points interrupt the flow of current. The resultant collapse of the magnetic field produces a high voltage to be generated in the primary winding which then tends to flow across the points, thus causing burning or pitting. This current flows into the condenser and charges it as the points open the rapid collapse of the magnetic field produces this high voltage in the primary windings, which can be as high as 250 volts. This further charges the condenser and the consequent collapse of the field causes a high voltage to be induced in every turn of both primary and secondary windings. As the secondary winding has about 100 times the number of turns of the primary, the voltage can reach as high as 25000 volts. Normally this voltage is not reached as it is limited by various factors such as point gap, compression, engine revs. Etc. so only sufficient voltage is produced to produce a spark at the plug. As the spark is produced at the plug gap the energy in the coil, stored in the form of magnetic flux, begins to drain from the coil through the secondary circuit thus sustaining the spark for a fraction of a second or several degrees of crankshaft revolution. During this interval the condenser discharges back through the primary winding producing an oscillation of the current flow in the primary circuit for the brief interval that is required for the primary circuit to return to a state of equilibrium. The condenser DOES NOT DISCHARGE UNTIL AFTER the spark has occurred at the spark plug.  >>>

So here are my thoughts:

1.  Clearly, when the secondary starts to discharge into the plasma, the voltage on the primary goes up and the voltage is not clamped by the battery and the capacitor like I stated.

2.  The primary generates a good jolt of EMF during the plasma burn that could charge the capacitor in the area of 250 volts.  This means some of the magnetic energy in the core does not get burned off in the plasma, it also charges the capacitor.  So if there is even less available energy in the core, how does the spark get stronger?

3.  Note that the battery and the strong EMF from the primary are still working together - the voltages add and both the battery and the primary want to induce current to flow in the same direction.

4.  With the battery and the primary working together to charge the capacitor, the principles of superposition with respect to what is taking place will happen.  With the battery and the primary working together, while the plasma burn takes place in the secondary, the battery is still pumping power into the primary and that power is making the spark more robust.  And with higher current flowing in the loop because of the EMF assist from the primary, presumably it means the battery can pump even more power into the primary.

5.  This is the Magluvin party-pooper part of the quote, "The condenser DOES NOT DISCHARGE UNTIL AFTER the spark has occurred at the spark plug."  So it would appear that any observed LC resonance is only takes place after the burn is over and it has nothing to do with the burn.  It's just a boring old ring-down after all the action has taken place to burn off the unused waste energy in the circuit.

6.  I believe the fundamental principle of the "direct battery-plasma reaction" still applies, but it is too low-level nitty-gritty technical even for the information quoted in the link.  The increased energy in spark has to come from the battery.

Anyway, this was just one link, although it seems credible.  More research could always be done.

" 5.  This is the Magluvin party-pooper part of the quote, "The condenser DOES NOT DISCHARGE UNTIL AFTER the spark has occurred at the spark plug."  So it would appear that any observed LC resonance is only takes place after the burn is over and it has nothing to do with the burn.  It's just a boring old ring-down after all the action has taken place to burn off the unused waste energy in the circuit.

Well that 'quote' is not correct in the least..  Firstly you dont know the circuit as you have shown in your explanation and then you think you can party poop me with some dumb quote?  That cap and primary charge and discharge with each other during the entire spark time. Gees you just dont quit.  And you sure dont get it,

You lost bud.  Its the way I have been presenting it for a long time now.  lol you think that pooper will save you?

mags