The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....

[tinman]

I was going to save this in case there is a rebuttal to my reply to brad..  But I just cant contain it any longer     See I do this stuff, like leaving out the balast resistor functions of basically cutting the battery voltage in half for the primary, not commenting on this what I present below of the part of brads post I didnt cover in my reply, so that when the discussion goes on, I have ultimate ammo for my later posts and destroy the target. Ive been doing that for years here and it works very well..   Its not unfair that I do so. Its smart.  If others like Mh and in this case brad, wants to do technical knowledge battle on this field, then I will use this strategy and their own words to beat them..  Truly i dont wish for these battles. But they do occur for many of us.. So take that as a piece of advice when you are arguing something you really know about and someone disputes it. If they do have it all wrong, you will win the battle with these 2 strategical technical battle methods every time.

Notice i didnt say anything to this in brads post....

"Ok,regarding the topic at hand.

The condenser serves many purposes,and here is one to think about.

We all know that if we remove the condenser ,we get very erratic engine running--back firing through the carby-and all sorts.
But how could the timing be that advanced that it would backfire through the carby?.."


This is the reason for the question that is in the end of brads post.....

"What roll dose the condenser play here in this one example?"

What he is trying to imply is that there would be a spark when the points close.  Again,  "What roll dose the condenser play here in this one example?

This has MH all over it to make up a fantasy reason for the cap to say it does something other than help give resonance to the system just like Mh did in his first post!!  Exactly the same motive!! MH splattered all over it. Follow me hear....

The statement was  "We all know that if we remove the condenser ,we get very erratic engine running--back firing through the carby-and all sorts.
But how could the 'timing' be that advanced that it would backfire through the carby?.."

All to suggest that there would be a spark when the points close for the reasons brad described later in the post. He is saying specifically about the timing advance as if the spark did occur when the switch closed, it would be sparking way before the compression stroke completes.. Well then, how does the cap solve that issue if the cap is shorted by the closed points switch? ??  That is what the questions answer is suppose to conclude, that the cap helps in some way to prevent this spark when the contacts close and the secondary 'supposedly' gives a spark!!!!..    Huge fail and MH has his twisting little finger prints all over it and still cant get it right trying to do so just like in his first post here that I approved for discussion.  And then I destroyed him. lol

Those in the know of this circuit should agree 110%. 

Brad, the only way out of this mess is to admit that MH came up with the whole thing and you posted it as your own thoughts.  I know that you 'should' know better than this..      So here is your chance at an out here..  How do I know that MH came up with that twisted concoction?  Ive been here for 10 years and had a 'Lot' of experience dealing with him twisting things so badly that I just tear it up with his own words just like I did with your post and with his post.  It has his "the cap cannot oscillate with the primary no way no how" all over it just like his earlier description...By way of misdirection. By way of diversion tactics.... I would bet my membership here on this..

But brad, if your sticking to your post as is, then Ill be waiting for your reply to explain it some how some way to make it right without changing anything.  Been here for what few hours now, rereading and rereading it all including my reply to be absolutely positive on this..  I got it right and you simply do not know what your talking about period. And that is sad if it is so..

Mags

Well Mag's,it looks like your ammo backfired this time,as the running voltages and explanation of the ballast resistors operation in the circuit is correct.

Im really not sure what has happened to you,but you are way of the mark with !all! your accusations toward me-like teaming up with MH-->really


Brad

[tinman]

And Brad, if you delete any of these posts before WE discuss it with Stefan in order to let him be the judge if need be, I will show stefan my page saves as full evidence that this crap is going on.
I promise you that.

Mags

As i said--i have not approved or deleted any posts in this thread--nor will i do so.

[tinman]

Im not gettig where you think Im part wrong. I do not agree with anything of brads explanation except the 100:1 ratios, and some are different. But that 100:1 will work here


Wikipedia is not a source that I trust on all things

If resonance gives a gain as i claim, then why are these 2 guys coming up with circuits to dispute that resonance even exists, and the circuits they use to do so are so flawed that they wont work as they say it does, and I have proved that for both to the T.  So why cant they explain why the resonance doesnt exist with an actual circuit explanation that ACTUALLY WORKS?? Think man!   Mh will use anything and everything to instill into the readers minds that resonance does not even exist in the circuit let alone that there is a gain to be had.  Why?  Because this is his job. He is the disinformation man. OU does not exist.  And he is trying to discredit my claim with everything in the book to try and ensure that the readers do not take what i say seriously.  He is the Monsanto of free energy. Monsanto is trying to rid the world of organic God made foods and say their gmo is better, when it its not. It has major porblems. If you dont know what Im talking about then i suggest you dig into the subject for the safety of you and yours. Mh is the same for any claims of free energy and the components there of that could get us free energy, like resonance and the gains I claim it gives for one..

Mags

First up mag's,i have never said that you are incorrect about resonance--we leave that till later.

I said that the condenser has many roles to play,and asked about just one of those rolls.

What i have said has been correct--
The voltage of a vehicles  electrical system is around 14.4 volt's
And the ballast resistors roll is to lower the L/R time constant,to allow for higher operational frequencies-->higher RPM.

I guess it's time to throw together a points ignition system,and see what we have--Yea?.


Brad

[Magluvin]

author=Magluvin link=topic=17482.msg512317#msg512317 date=1509155591]



Not sure if your having a bad day,or have had to much whacky weed Mag's,but i have not approved or removed any ones posts in this thread--i have done nothing but read,and make the comments i made--thats it.

No wacky weed.  But I just looked at the moderation log and Stefan approved them apparently. Didnt know I could see who 'else' did.  I bases it on your posting just a couple hours after they we approved. So sorry on that. It wasnt me, I only approved the posts before that. Wasnt grum as he and i have be conversing lately. Also didnt know us 3 were not the only ones to moderate here.

First up--!some! ignition systems use a ballast resistor--every seen one on a motorcycle that has points ignition?. Most high performance points ignition systems have no ballast resistor,nor do a lot of coils require a ballast resistor.

Second--a resistor reduces current flow-not voltage.
The voltage will appear across the coil,regardless of the resistor or not.
The ballast resistor is to reduce the time constant(the rate at which current rises in the coil)--the larger the series resistance,the shorter the time constant.
This allows your ignition coil to operate at a higher frequency--higher RPM.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bzz7P3qNHcE




I think you missed the whole question Mags,which was--why do you think the engine runs rough and back fires when there is no condenser ?
I basically answered this for you,and you missed it.


I am.
https://itstillruns.com/output-voltage-gm-alternators-7754415.html

I do 

Well Mag's--you are having a bad day.

Seems like one of us know the operating voltage of a vehicles electrical system.

What part did you expose exactly ?.

As i said,i basically answered the question for you.
What ever happened to people using there own smarts ?.

But you did not put me in my place Mag's,as all that i quoted was correct,from the purpose of the ballast resistor,and the average operating voltage of a vehicles electrical system.

As far as the RT go's--that is best left dead and buried.


Brad

"Not sure if your having a bad day,or have had to much whacky weed Mag's,but i have not approved or removed any ones posts in this thread--i have done nothing but read,and make the comments i made--thats it"

No wacky weed.  But I just looked at the moderation log and Stefan approved them apparently. Didnt know I could see who 'else' did.  I bases it on your posting just a couple hours after they we approved. So sorry on that. It wasnt me, I only approved the posts before that. Wasnt grum as he and i have be conversing lately. Also didnt know us 3 were not the only ones to moderate here.

"First up--!some! ignition systems use a ballast resistor--every seen one on a motorcycle that has points ignition?. Most high performance points ignition systems have no ballast resistor,nor do a lot of coils require a ballast resistor.



Second--a resistor reduces current flow-not voltage.
The voltage will appear across the coil,regardless of the resistor or not.
The ballast resistor is to reduce the time constant(the rate at which current rises in the coil)--the larger the series resistance,the shorter the time constant.
This allows your ignition coil to operate at a higher frequency--higher RPM."

The ballast resistor is commonly 1ohm like the primary. With it in series with the coil during closed points time, the amount of current flowing is only as much as the total resistance. It becomes a voltage divider. 12v becomes 6v across each. Simple I=v/r  When the points are open there is no voltage across the coil with just the ign sw on. Only the cap has 12v.  just using 12v here. 14.4 would be 7.2v each. Dealt with this with one of the guys at my previous work as they didnt understand why there wasnt anything near 12 on the col primary and was searching for why. So I showed him why with the meter just like I said it above.

"I think you missed the whole question Mags,which was--why do you think the engine runs rough and back fires when there is no condenser ?
I basically answered this for you,and you missed it."

Well if the plug is firing sometimes and a weak spark even if it does spark every time without the cap, there will not always be a burn in the cycle and the cyl can get a little loaded with fuel, more than would be in a single cycle. This can cause backfire just like a bad plug, wire, whichever. Out of time can definitely cause backfire but it is more typical with retard. Just like a too rich mixture can cause backfire the same can happen when a cyl doesnt get a burn for a cycle or more due to a weak spark.  Like what you are saying is the advanced spark time that you speak of is ways off of when it should spark. Your talkin intake valve open right? For the the flames to come out of the carb that is way off timing. When it is suppose to spark is just before complete compression. You are sayin that the closure of the points for the spark you are talking about would be somewhere between intake valve just opening and when it closes just before compression begins. Id say that is not a point where the distributor rotor is even close enough to the particular plug wire terminal for the very weak spark to even jump let alone with the series opening of the plug gap.
Look up  What causes backfire and too rich will come up every time. If a cyl is not firing well and periodic burns, then the too rich deal would occur when it does happen to get a decent spark.  I did a search just now and see nothing that you describe in your post,  I had to do the search just to add to my argument that there cannot be a spark by way of when the switch closes, even if you have 20v in. Try it.  There will only be a spark when the switch opens due to the field collapse.

Can you show me a source link that covers just what you say is happening here? One that says there can be a spark when the points close if the condenser is removed?
If you can I will cut my toe off. Only if they can explain how the shorted cap when the switch is closed prevents this mystery spark.

I dont buy it. Gotta show something other than just your opinion on that, of which it just may be an opinion and you are not stating it as a fact. Thats fine either way, but if you claim it is fact, does anyone else out there on the net agree with that?

The cyl is rich due to intermittent burns because of intermittent weak sparks because the cap is not there to help with making the spark stronger, thus back firings occur. Thats my story


here is the big issue. How does the cap affect this premature when the switch closes spark you speak of?   Ok so you say there is this spark that happens when the points switch closes, right? Well how would having the cap across the points switch help to prevent that spark you claim happens?  At this point if the spark you say can occur when the switch closes, the cap is now shorted when the switch closes. What is the caps function, while it is shorted across the closed switch that prevents this spark you are claiming happens when the switch closes??



Here is the question at the end of your post  "What roll dose the condenser play here in this one example?."  Well the answer is it plays no roll. it is dead shorted at the time of the switch closure... So is that a correct answer to that last question?  Because if it is, then the whole, spark when the switch closes when the cap is removed form the circuit, is all a farce. Because with the cap or without the cap this spark should occur and give you the same backfires with or without the cap!! Get it?

Right there shows it is definitely not as you say.      Can you agree that there is not this 'when points closed spark' whether the cap is there or not???

I mean you did say  "We all know that if we remove the condenser ,we get very erratic engine......"  Well?     If you agree that the spark you speak of does not occur period now, then why did you make it all up as if it is the way it is brad?

Mags

[Magluvin]

Im glad you dont disagree with the resonance Brad.  Do you agree we attain a gain in eff of in and out with this resonance? Pin should not really change cap or no cap. But with the cap we definitely get more out thus an efficiency gain.

That is my whole point. I really could care less if the points burn in 7 switchings or remains clean forever, or whether the piston has a hole in it. The gain is had by way of resonance.  My setup was direct battery just as shown in the 2 circuit examples MH posted, so I did it that way, and the results just by viewing the spark are apparent right away. We can say more with the cap. But MH refuses the resonance claim. Resonance is what this topic is all about and if he wants to show that resonance is not there, I will let him do that till he runs out of ideas before i show him the scope shots, mostly because Im tired of him sayin I dont know anything and he knows it all. Well I let him screw up time after time to show his so called circuit analysis skills are really bunk and we should know this if he is going to pretend to be what he is not. If someone tell you the wrong stuff all the time would you not want someone to tell you about it if you didnt really know for yourself? there are a lot of people here that just take things for what is said. It is discouraging. Im here for the real ou search. Im here to tell my end of it and not just keep it to myself. MHs posts are a LOT of what cant be done more than what can be done. I have issue with that because just here in this thread it shows and is bad in a way that he makes up stuff, and his analysis is bad. I cant let the readers fall for that. just as I cant let the readers believe in this spark brad speaks of as truth, because it isnt.

I was a bit caught up with the timing of your post brad and the timing of MHs posts being approved within a couple hours of your post, And then your post of the cap removed lets this switch on spark being wrong, unless you can explain it further the 'caps roll" thing better, I have to say that spark does not happen cap or not. It all had me thinking collisions with MH was there. So yeah I freaked out.  But I have to still say your post is not correct if the assumption is that there is a spark when the switch closes, cap or no cap.

Felt ganged up on a bit. Im dead serious on the resonance gain and if MH keeps trying to derail the resonance gain is false then I have to put out as much that it is and he puts out that it isnt.  Otherwise I may as well just go home or do other things than come here, put it out there and just let him make it all disappear just like that.


So Id like to see brads setup produce that switch on spark without the cap and goes away when the cap is present. That is the only way I would believe it. Ille set up right along side of him and try for myself. Thing is, the regular collapse spark is sooo weak, I cannot see the swiitch closure spark happening. And when I say cant see it, I mean I really I didnt see it.    1mm gap, .5mm gap, .2mm gap.  No switch on spark occurs......

mags