Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment

[ayeaye]

I cannot think of what the cause is for the low (61°) phase angle in my present coil.

I don't know, one thing i can think of, is that your coil is too well made. Too regular. When the capacitance between the windings is everywhere the same, then it might well be that there is no current in the coils at all, all moves only by capacitance. No current moving through the coil means no inductance, all the bifilar coil might be in effect just a capacitor. But there need to be both, capacitance and inductance.

[tinman]

You're right, ayeaye. The measurement method is wrong, not only Pout but also Pin.

The output power is not equal to CH3²/(R1+R2) but is equal to Pout = (CH3-CH2)²/R1 + CH2²/R2 as you stated.
And the input current is not given by CH2 because current from R1 is added so Pin is wrong too.

(As I may be wrong too, please guys explain your method with Pout=CH3²/(R1+R2) while it's not the same current in R1 and R2).

For me, if you want use the voltage at R2 terminals to know the input current and have Pout=CH3²/R1 + CH2²/R2 and Pin=CH1*(CH2/R2) then you have to connect the probes this way:

As below

[itsu]

I used my 2th similar bifilar pancake coil to check my measurements.

The first used bifi measured 133.8uH and 131.2uH with a Q=50 @ 100Khz (using my Agilent U1733C LCR meter)
The second now used bifi measures 125.5uH and 122.4uH with a Q=50 @ 100Khz.

Still using the TK measurement procedure i get (still @ 1.44MHz):

CH1 (yellow) 1.99V Cycrms
CH2 (Blue) 45.06mA Cycrms
CH3 (purple) 921.7mV Cycrms
Math (red) CH1 x CH2 = 41.88mW
Phase difference CH1 => CH2 = 62.25°  (blue = current = leading)

As my scope only can present 4 measurements at a time, see the below 2 screenshots for the 5 important measurements.

Scope Math (red) calulates the input to be 41.88mW
Manual calculation for input shows Vrms x Irms  x Cos (phi)   = P ave
                                                    1.99  x 0.04506 x Cos (-62.25) = 41.75mW       (same as scope instantaneous calc's)

Pout = CH3²/(R1+R2)
        = 0.921.7²/21
        = 40,45mW

COP = 40.45 / 41.75 = 0.968

So results are almost the same using 2 different bifilar pancake coils.

Now doing the measurement the F6FLT way......


Itsu

[tinman]

I used my 2th similar bifilar pancake coil to check my measurements.

The first used bifi measured 133.8uH and 131.2uH with a Q=50 @ 100Khz (using my Agilent U1733C LCR meter)
The second now used bifi measures 125.5uH and 122.4uH with a Q=50 @ 100Khz.

Still using the TK measurement procedure i get (still @ 1.44MHz):

CH1 (yellow) 1.99V Cycrms
CH2 (Blue) 45.06mA Cycrms
CH3 (purple) 921.7mV Cycrms
Math (red) CH1 x CH2 = 41.88mW
Phase difference CH1 => CH2 = 62.25°  (blue = current = leading)

As my scope only can present 4 measurements at a time, see the below 2 screenshots for the 5 important measurements.

Scope Math (red) calulates the input to be 41.88mW
Manual calculation for input shows Vrms x Irms  x Cos (phi)   = P ave
                                                    1.99  x 0.04506 x Cos (-62.25) = 41.75mW       (same as scope instantaneous calc's)

Pout = CH3²/(R1+R2)
        = 0.921.7²/21
        = 40,45mW

COP = 40.45 / 41.75 = 0.968

So results are almost the same using 2 different bifilar pancake coils.

Now doing the measurement the F6FLT way......


Itsu

The fact that current leads voltage at these high frequencies,using a BIFI coil,is nothing out of the ordinary. The bifi coil is simply more capacitive than inductive at these high frequencies.

When you lower the frequency,you will see that the voltage will start to lead current.


Brad

[F6FLT]

The transformer is only used to isolate the FG from the circuit. We only want to measure the circuit so CH1 must be taken on L1.
The statement "The power calculations of the circuit attached to your pole cannot be calculated using a common grounded oscilloscope" is not based on any engineering rules. I confirm that power measurements can be done perfectly well in accordance with what I have indicated:
https://overunity.com/17861/bifilar-pancake-coil-overunity-experiment/dlattach/attach/170845/image//