Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment

[itsu]

Since this is my circuit being discussed I will answer the question regarding measurement error with this specific configuration by saying  "is there any error"?  TK may have been tongue-in-cheek but was he?

The potential measurement error with this type of circuit (a reactive to real power converter) comes from two sources.  First, the high ratio of reactive to real power and second, the requirement of the scope used to discern "minutes" of phase angle measurements.  This requires extreme care when deskewing the probes used (particularly the current measurement) plus probe connections and layout.

Are these converters capable of producing more energy out than in, yes they are but with a caveat in determining if they are or not.  The input sinewave is the point of reference for the input power.  However, in the test TK shows and in nearly all others I've done, this sinewave was generated by some outside means such as a signal generator for low levels or a pulse generator driving a resonant L/C circuit.  The former is usually produced by Direct Digital Synthesis which may or may not require more energy than is produced at the output, but the later always requires more energy.

Herein lies the problem to be solved IMO!

Pm

I made a quick replication of Partzman his bifilar transformer (PBT) as being presented by Tinselkoala in his video
here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNzbc-N-e9c

Using almost the same setup and the same measurement techniques according to the below diagram.

My values are slightly different, but the measurement points are the same:

R1= 2x10 Ohm 1% inductionfree in series = 20 Ohm
R2= 1 Ohm 1% inductionfree
Frequency= 1.44Mhz sine wave
FG isolated via isolation transformer plus running from a battery
CH1 (yellow) 1.9V Cycrms
CH2 (Blue) 47mA Cycrms
CH3 (purple) 969mV Cycrms
Math (red) CH1 x CH2 = 43mW
Phase difference CH1 => CH2 = 61°  (blue = current = leading)

As my scope only can present 4 measurements at a time, see the below 2 screenshots for the 5 important measurements.

Scope Math (red) calulates the input to be 43mW
Manual calculation for input shows Vrms x Irms  x Cos (phi)   = P ave
                                                     1.9  x 0.047 x Cos (-61) = 43mW       (same as scope instantaneous calc's)

Pout = U²/R
        = 0.969²/21
        = 44mW

So my setup and calculations comes to a COP=1

Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuGGHpAmdK4

Regards Itsu

[ayeaye]

I made a quick replication of Partzman his bifilar transformer (PBT)

Thank you, very important.

One thing though, the output power is (ch3 - ch2) ^ 2 / R1 + ch2 ^ 2 / R2 (root mean square average voltages of ch3 and ch2), you calculated ch3 ^ 2 / R1, but this makes output only less and COP less.

[F6FLT]

...
So my setup and calculations comes to a COP=1

Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuGGHpAmdK4

Regards Itsu

Hi Itsu,

Thank you for presenting us your experiment, which was obviously carried out with care. I'm not really surprised about the COP.
So now the COP difference is due either to a measurement error on the TK side or perhaps, last chance, to a particular difference between your setups, to be identified.

[itsu]

Thank you, very important.

One thing though, the output power is (ch3 - ch2) ^ 2 / R1 + ch2 ^ 2 / R2 (root mean square average voltages of ch3 and ch2), you calculated ch3 ^ 2 / R1, but this makes output only less and COP less.

well,  thats how TK did it (ouput power is across the both resistors (18.8 + 1 = 19.8 Ohm), so thats why i did it too.

By the way, i could not light up a led on a second bifilar (in series) pancake coil (i do not have a monofilar pancake
coil), so could not show the increase in current when led was disconnected.
But when coupling this 2th bifilar coil (in series) with led to the first bifilar coil, i could not see any significant
changes in the values.


Itsu 

[ayeaye]

Ah you calculated ch3 ^ 2 / (R1 + R2), yes that should be right.

COP exactly 1 is very weird though, that a circuit is that efficient. That looks like an anomaly, worth to research more. In COP 2.9 i don't much believe though, i think if overunity would be found, it would be small, the capacitance is small, etc.