free energy via electronic means

[Walter Hofmann]

Hi swing,
what voltage you are working with 120 or 240V?
something seeems to be wrong generally because if you got no extra load on it the charger should level out but only after a few hours ( between 4 und 8 hr) I would take the used batterie out because this could be one reason too, it could be as the total voltage was not increased anymore that the use batterie took to much due to the increased internal resistence.
I started with two brandnew batteries like I sayd they have 850CC Amps and trolling kind for marine application.
I could not make real sence of the spredsheat, just take the data every hour.
Let the charger run longer usually if you charge from the grid it takes up to 20 hr with a charger like you got. Try to charge a batterie with htis charger from the grid and look how long it takes and what the endresult on voltage is. If the charger cuts off the charge because the voltage is set to low you got a probleme. the other part could be the inverter if you use 220V I got no idea how this works out because I only work with 120V. My setup start with the big batteries then I got a 1.000W inverter and the charger is without the circuit just the transformer and the rectifier nothing else because the circuit did cut off to early and with this charger I checkt it and it brought up to 18A. it makes a big difference if you got big batteries and a big inverter for the charging because in my case the charger takes allready 240 W ( 120V/2A) now if your inverter takes only 2 A at 220V you allready over the inverter if it takes 2A at 120V then you are allready on critical because this inverters tend to go in a nonlinear curve with the current pulled from the batteries. This means up to about 50% output the drawn current follows a linear path but over this it gets extremly up in my case I did see a jump from 30A by 500W to a wopping 65A at 750W and at the max of 1.000W it did go up to 110A.
Maybe this helps to understand more how this works.
greetings
walt

@walt
You mean, that whenever the voltage goes low, you can build up the voltage by just letting the charger feed the battery, without any "extra" load?
If that's true, you could make sure to have a working system, if you can make the charger build up the voltage on the battery bank.


I have now connected 4 batteries in parallel, and allraedy have som testresults. It doesn't look to promising. 

Test log is attached.

I have some dificulties figuring out how the best and fastest way of testing the setup. If walt's statment are correct, then it's easy. If the carger alone can build up the battery bank, then we are home free, but I don't know if I understood him correctly.

[wattsup]

Hey you guys, I have tried a new way.

I am using 6 x 12vdc batteries, 5 x 7a and 1 x 4a in series. I'm charging on the right side and supplying the re-charge inverter on the left side. No wire inversions. I am also using another small demand supply inverter running off battery #4 (from the right). I plugged a 110vac fan on fastest turn setting. Measured voltage across all the batteries it is stable at 81.8 volts.

I am using a 600 watts inverter on left side, a 2 - 10 - 50 amp selectable charger set on the 10 amp setting on the right side, and a 175 watt inverter off the battery #4.

I've included a photo and diagram.

RI = Recharge Inverter DI = Demand Inverter BC=Battery Charger
The number after the letter is the battery number.

RI6 - DI4 - BC1
14:21 - 81.3
14:22 - 81.4
14.24 - 81.5
14:26 - 81.6
14.28 - 81.7
14.30 - 81.8
14.35 - 81.8
14:41 - 81.8 (sometimes flickers to 81.9 then stays at 81.
Left it running and forgot to take voltage readings.
14:50 - Alarms on both inverters.
14:50 - Switched to other batteries on the bank. RI5 - DI3
15:01 - 82.3
15:03 - 82.3
15:05 - 82.2
15:08 - 82.1
15:11 - 82.0
15:13 - 81.9
15:16 - 81.8
15:18 - 81.7
15:20 - 81.6
15:22 - 81.5
15:24 - 81.4
Alarm on DI3 - switched to DI2.
15:25 - 81.5
15:26 - 81.6
15:27 - 81.7
15:31 - 81.7 flickers to 81.8
15:38 - 81.6
15:40 - 81.5
15:42 - 81.4
15:43 Alarm on RI5.

The charger inverter went on alarm and I have been trying to figure out why. I thought it was because the voltage on that battery #5 went to low, but here are the voltages per battery.

Battery voltages
Bat # - voltage
6 - 13.55 Left side
5 - 13.73
4 - 13.59
3 - 13.63
2 - 13.83
1 - 14.71 Right Side

Total calculated voltage accross the bank 83.04 vdc
Actual measured voltage accross the bank 84.7 vdc.

I think the problem is the voltage went too high and the inverter is cutting off. I put a dc bulb onto battery #6 to bring down the voltage. When it gets down to 12 volts. I will try to continue the test. Otherwise I may have to find another inverter.

Here is what I have noticed. Eventually although the voltage accross the battery bank has not decreased dramatically, the battery voltage of the batteries connected to the inverters falls to an alarm level and stops the inverter. I just plug the inverter to another battery on the bank and the total voltage is still around the 81.8 level and the system continues to work.

Maybe a voltage sensing and switching system should be used to switch the loads onto alternating series batteries in order to share the load. This makes certain batteries at low voltage that can sweep in the charging 10 amps.

Ideally I'd have to use several voltage meters and amp meters to check what is going on but it is not normal. I was expecting the batteries to be very low, but on the contrary, they are all at full charge.

If you have an extra inverter and three or more batteries, see if this way will work better.

Also, it is important to match the Recharging Inverter to the charger demand.

Also, under the parallel system there is no difference if you plug the charger on opposing terinals since the batteries are in parallel.

[Walter Hofmann]

Hi swing,
this link is dangerous as I click the link it stript my screen from everythings and did not come back , I had to restart my machine and this twice.
I thought I tell you before something worth is happening.
greetings
walt

I'm having some problems postin.
I'll post some updates when I get it solved.

Check out my webcam: http://hvaal.himselfandco.dk:8181

Sorry for the poor quality.

[IronHead]

Hi swing,
this link is dangerous as I click the link it stript my screen from everythings and did not come back , I had to restart my machine and this twice.
I thought I tell you before something worth is happening.
greetings
walt

[/quote]

Walter , Update your Java console .

[SwinG]

Hi walt,
Thanks for your comments, and details.
I'm using 220VAC (sometimes called 230VAC or 240VAC).
Would you recommend to use an old "boat anchor" charger instead of an electronic one?
If you don't use a charger with overcharge cut off, woulden't you overcharge the batteries? My current charger is a constant voltage charger. It charges up to 14.1V, and the current drops all the way from 12 to 14.1V. So it takes a long time to charge the batteries, as you also said.
About the loss in the invert. It says in the specs. for the inverter that the loss is <10%. That clearly isn't the case with your inverter. But, I don't know if the specs are correct.
Yes, it is a bit of a problem, that we don't really know if this concept is doable on a 220VAC system. Hopefully time will show.

Sorry about the link. I'm not aware of the problem. I don't  really know what to do about it at the moment. I'm thinking to just stream pictures to a webserver instead, so it won't kill my bandwidth. That would also take care of your problem.

Hi wattsup,
Thank's for your interesting post. Nice to see some messing around with the concept. 
I don't really see the smart thing in the setup. When the batteries are connected in series, the charge won't level out between the batteries, as far as I know. You are charging one battery, and loading two others, and then you switch the load between the batteries. The batteries doesn't work together the same way when connected in series.
This small rise in voltage in some tests is probably because the cells takes some time to adjust when they are applied load. I have had the same effect, but as in your tests, the voltages starts to drop again after some minutes.
Could you try to measure the voltage on the DI and RI when the alarm goes off before you turn it off and switch to another battery (if you can stand the freaking noise)?
How much power does the fan consume? If it's around 20W, then one battery would run for more than 3 hours, before it surrenders. Your whole experiment have run for total of 1h 22m. That's not enough to even drain one battery alone.
And your charger. Is it an electronic type, or an old trafo type.


I have attached a scope shot one of my friends did. He is using the same charge as I do. Don't know if andybody can get something out of it.
I'm still charging my batteries. I'll try a setup without the used battery next, to see if that makes any difference.