Successful TPU-ECD replication !

[Jeff B]

@marco,

I DO REALISE there are many methods of construction,
My Magnet comment was with regard to the MDC theory/practice, nothing more.
I still think there may be some validity in it, for some builds.
That was my statement.

Re: Dirty SS devices:  I really do think this was a silly statement.
Tell me What ISN'T dirty.
(Yes,Of course the valve amp will amplify dirty signals - Any amp will.)
In a perfect world, there is No distortion anywhere... Pity we aren't living in a perfect world.
Your statement reads that there are no clean devices except tubes, and that without tubes, we cannot get the perfect frequency.

Your whole statement revolves around the SS frequency generator giving Dirty signals.
But To What tolerance ?
We can't easily produce a perfect sine wave, by any means.

What percentage of sinewave distortion is acceptable ? 0.1%
What percentage of linearity distortion does the Valve amp have?  <2% ?   (Have a look at the Transfer characteristics of the 12AX7 Valve, or similar)
What percentage of drift is acceptable in the oscillator ?
Can you build a valve oscillator with NO DRIFT ?
What tolerance capacitors can you buy ?  The Coils ?
Temperature stability of the Resistors ?

Try designing in the X, Y AND Z axis (Real & Imaginary [Polar]) - Whole different kettle of fish !

You would be a Genius if you built a (simple) valve oscillator & amplifier with Zero drift, Zero sinewave distortion, and Zero linearity distortion in the valve amp (or any simple amp).
What about power supply cross-coupling onto the output signal ?
Power supply limitations leading to linearity distortions ?

How accurate is your coil building - mechanical & electrical ?
Did you tune the length of coil wire to 0% tolerance ?
Did you mount the coils exactly 44.0000000mm apart ?
Outside interferences ?
Stray capacitance & Inductances ?
What is the Q factor of the coils ? --> Everything has a Q factor.

How accurate does the final frequency have to be, and with what allowable distortion ?
Less than 0.1% ?

When I worked at RAKON (NZ Xtal manufacturer), I tuned a Special (stabilised & 50 ohm output) Xtal oscillator module to 10MHZ +/- 0.05Hz for my own Freq counter.
--> SHIT of a job !
It finally came down to distorting the xtal can to be able to get the resolution change ness', and waiting a day between each change.
Probably won't stay like that for a long time, but I just thought it was a good starting point at the time.

Anyway - I'm NOT trying to insult you or anything.
I'm just saying there are practical tolerances with any piece of equipment - Valve or otherwise - that you can't escape from.

My PREVIOUS statement to Otto, was simply that I thought it would save him time to use the SS freq gen, put through his Valve amp.
I though that this approach would simply speed up his search for finding the required frequencies.
ONCE HE FOUND THEM, then he could do as much as he liked to use his valves as the oscillator, and refine their stability to see how much change/extra gain he could find from the TPU/ECD.

Oh yes - and you said (about a TV yoke) "i do know that on the yoke the magnets are used to set up a carefully balanced magnetic field which helps to drive the electron beam."
Incorrect. Not Driving anything.
On a 3 beam (colour) TV tube, the electron guns have a physical offsett.
The magnets do set up a carefully balanced magnetic field, but just to slightly deflect the 3 individual beams, so they converge at the same point on the front of the screen (on their respective colour phosphors).
This is probably what you meant, but just phrased it wrongly.

@BEP

I accept your statement about charged particles, but I would have thought that the Driving Valve Amp would have supplied this.
Would it change anything if the frequency source connected to its gate Wasn't a valve ?

====================================================================

I'm sorry guys -
I don't mind criticism, but I simply wrote down a few comments previously, and I got my head bitten off for doing so.
It felt like the Spanish Inquisition  - Anything said against Valves, and it's Off to the Guillotine !

I have nothing against them at all.
In fact, I started my training on military Valve driven Direction Finding equipment (FH5), & still quite fond of Valves today.
I was just trying to balance speed & versatility with "time to get a result".

Have a nice evening, but try to take it easy on the next guy,
Jeff.

[turbo]

@marco,

Re: Dirty SS devices:  I really do think this was a silly statement.

Wanna see a silly statement?
Here:

Use SS it will save you time.

Your statement reads that there are no clean devices except tubes, and that without tubes, we

cannot get the perfect frequency.

Wrong, my statement does not read that there are no clean devices except tubes.
My statement is simply based on the fact that it was discovered with tubes.
The guy who did this actually told us that if it was not for the tubes he'd would have never even
discovered it...

Your whole statement revolves around the SS frequency generator giving Dirty signals.
But To What tolerance ?
We can't easily produce a perfect sine wave, by any means.

Correct, But Solid state devices use about a million percent of feed-back to get a clean signal output.
One thing is an absolute fact, and that is that the electron transit time of tubes is very-very fast
compared to transistors.
The feedback for frequency output correction needs to be FAST.
Solid state is DIRTY AND SLOW.
You need three precice or pure frequencies.
Not three which are larger then the hundreds of others in the soup.

Anyway - I'm NOT trying to insult you or anything.
I'm just saying there are practical tolerances with any piece of equipment - Valve or

otherwise - that you can't escape from.

Correct, but we can try to keep those as limited as possible.
In fact we need to.
You can try to insult me as much as you want, it doesn't even bother me at all.

My PREVIOUS statement to Otto, was simply that I thought it would save him time to use the SS

freq gen, put through his Valve amp.
I though that this approach would simply speed up his search for finding the required frequencies.
ONCE HE FOUND THEM, then he could do as much as he liked to use his valves as the oscillator, and

refine their stability to see how much change/extra gain he could find from the TPU/ECD.

I believe Otto already realizes he needs the Tubes.
He is using solid state for over a year now....
I also believe it was the way around, find the frequency's with Tubes first and then switch to SS stuff.
If you had read the complete document you would have known this....
Now you are acting like i stepped onto your toes.
I did not, i just disagreed with the use of SS parts, no big deal.

Oh yes - and you said (about a TV yoke) "i do know that on the yoke the magnets are used to set up

a carefully balanced magnetic field which helps to drive the electron beam."
Incorrect. Not Driving anything.
On a 3 beam (colour) TV tube, the electron guns have a physical offsett.
The magnets do set up a carefully balanced magnetic field, but just to slightly deflect the 3 individual

beams, so they converge at the same point on the front of the screen (on their respective colour

phosphors).
This is probably what you meant, but just phrased it wrongly.

You seem to understand what i meant, i did phrase that wrongly....
What do you think will happen IF those little magnets start to help drive the electrons at an
incredible rate along the wires of the yoke and especially the short circuited core?

I'm sorry guys -
I don't mind criticism, but I simply wrote down a few comments previously, and I got my head bitten

off for doing so.

I was just trying to balance speed & versatility with "time to get a result".

Have a nice evening, but try to take it easy on the next guy,
Jeff.

Head bitten off? balance speed & versatility??
You just took it the wrong way, again no big deal.
It is important we help each other to stay on the right track.
I was so happy to see Otto stepped onto TUBE ROAD.
Then you walked in like you were going to pull him back onto SOLID STATE ROAD.
Is it that bad that i responded like this?
if so, i am sorry, my goal was only to remind Otto that it was discovered with Tubes.....

Marco.

[BEP]

@BEP

I accept your statement about charged particles, but I would have thought that the Driving Valve Amp would have supplied this.
Would it change anything if the frequency source connected to its gate Wasn't a valve ?

I'm sure your thought would be correct. As far as particles go - the presence of the valve (live) should be all that is required. IMO the source is not important as long as the other things mentioned are in account. I suppose I'm lucky there as I find it easier to design using tubes and I don't have to wait weeks for some new part number to arrive.

As far a head biting - I just wish mine would grow back differently each time. I hoped I would look better after regrowth but it hasn't happened yet!

I'll keep trying 

[Jeff B]

Now worries.
As I said - Originally I just made the comment to Otto thinking that it might be a time saver for him.
I don't mind.
And - as it happened, Otto said he had plenty of time to do both anyway, so not a problem there either.

Cheers Guys.
Jeff.

[nickc44]

Hi All

@ Otto

You talk about vibration and getting it to work with wave in
I have been playing with Bedini school girl setup and stumbled on
Something that may help in this case.
I used a 6? Spool with a 2 inch core I ran 500 ? magnetic wire
Filled it with welding rods and ran the wheel worked OK but not as good as
The smaller Spools  I added 2 12v batteries in series and making it stronger 24v
Not much better
One day the magnets slipped off and the wheel stuck to the Spool by the magnets
And the spool started to vibrate it was working with out the wheel moving and still is

I think what is happening is the magnetic field in the welding rods and or the mass of wire kicks on the one wire going to the transistor and turns it on.

I always wondered if it was that ease to get this to work are we getting to complicated,
In the design.
the TPU is very much like the school girl project

By the way when SM worked with SS he said the trick was in the Board he used and the
Height of the IC?s off that board

Nick