no infinity

[Dingus Mungus]

I would have to disagree with your assumption of the finite universe. A little knowledge of quantum mechanics and virtual particle theory would tell you that the things holding reality together are infinite as far as science can determine. Virtual particles pop in and out of existence on demand to perform most of what consider work or energy. This is mostly theory, but we must look at our past and see that we're never 100% right, just on the right track. Most of our fact is estimation, as in not exact and only applies to that which we have physically confirmed.

To not believe in infinity is quite paradoxical when considering existence at all. It's much like the chicken and the egg. If the big bang came from _____, then how long was ____ there? What came before _____? When everything in the "finite" universe slows down and gets cold due to entropy, then what happens to it? How long will it all just sit there? Will it ever go away? Doesn't it require a lot of energy to destroy or remove all of reality? How do you destroy the left over energy when all mass is converted to energy? How long will that energy exist for? Finite thinking is understandable but not scientific... Infinity is a concept that can't be properly explained with words or numbers. You see the function of infinity all around you everyday, I know you do, but we will never physically see it or understand it.

An interesting debate, but much like a god, infinity can not really be proved one way or the other at this point in the human existence.

~Dingus Mungus

[hansvonlieven]

G'day all,

At the risk of sounding like a complete idiot, doesn't the whole confusion arise because we have been taught to treat zero and infinity as numbers, which they are not.

Now I don't deny the usefulness of this approach, calculus wouldn't work otherwise. In terms of function this approach makes sense.

We say that any integer divided by zero equals infinity. But does it??

If we think of zero as what it really is, namely nothing, and if we substitute the word nothing for zero in the equation it is no longer logical because any integer divided by nothing leaves the integer intact.

If you turn the equation 500 divided by zero equals infinity around it should become infinity multiplied by zero equals 500.

Does it?

I don't think so. Any multiple of nothing, even an infinity of them, is still nothing.

This makes only sense if you use 42 as the integer, in which case the answer yields the key to Life, the Universe and Everything.

Source: Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Universe. :-)

Worth thinking about??

Hans von Lieven

[sky]

The reason why

5/0=0
3/0=0
0=5
3=0
5=3

appears to be false or contradictory is because of the frame of reference you are applying to the value zero

Hans states correctly  "If we think of zero as what it really is, namely nothing,"

however this statement does not impart the full meaning of zero.

Math deals with all subjects in an absolute sense. The absolute value of zero is actually the absence of anything, the absence of everything.
It is the exact opposite of all that is. If you can imagine the distance between nothing and everything then you have clearly failed to space them far enough apart. The inverse is also true, you have failed to recognize that there can be no space between something that does not exist and something that does.

When examined from this perspective, the value of 0 is infinitely less than the value of 1 or any qauntity. It is not simply 1 unit less because that would leave something to be examined. 0 nullifies the existence of any number.

Carried further 0 is also infinitely greater than everything that is. "Nothing" is the proverbial +1 ad infinitum. If nothing is discovered it becomes part of everything, proving that it was something.  

In this same sense the value of 1 and of any number is infinitely greater than the value of 0.

Math amazingly recongnizes this relationship. And when asked a question about everythings relationship to nothing it gives the following reply:

IF 5/0= 0
IF 3/0= 0
THEN   5=3 , 5=0

By interacting "everything" with "nothing" math shows clearly the relationship between the 2.

5 is = to 3  from 0's perspective because both numbers are equally greater/lesser than the existence of nothing.

5 is = to 0 from maths perspective because they are equally probable.

Mathematics does not acknowledge its own existence as definitive proof that it does not exist. It should however be noted that it gives "nothing" very few comments seeing as how it only mentions 0 once but talks about everything forever. 12344567891011121314151617181920212223242526272829......

For anyone that doubts my analysis please review the following proof of infinity:

IF 5/0 = 0
IF 3/0 = 0
THEN 5=0 , 3=0 , 5=3

"Proper use of Mathematics doesn't lie. Its just the way people interpret the answers math provides that mucks things up."
Sky

I think that there has to be an infinity because dividing any number by zero yields an infinite value.

x/y=z

As y approaches zero, z approaches infinity

That is interesting. However, if let us examine the truth of the statement by demonstrative logical example:

If true then 5/0 = infinity
If true then 3/0 = infinity
If true then 5 = 0 * infinity
If true then 3 = 0 * infinity

Therefore we start to see a problem, as both statements cannot be true. Which is the truth then 0 * infinity = 5, or 0 * infinity = 3?

Or are you stating that it is an equivalency thing..... which would yield 5 = 3, since 0 * infinity is equivalent to 0 * infinity ........

ALL division problems are falsifiable through built in mathematical functions.

For instance, multiplication can be falsified with addition

3 * 2 = 5 (falsifiable statement)
2 + 2 + 2 = 6 (equivalent function demonstrating first statement false. In this case addition.)

You notice that 2 added to 2 a total of 3 times, is to state the multiplication of 2 * 3. It is a different means of stating the SAME thing, but in long hand. It is solved by linear computation.

2 + 2 = 4
4 + 2 = 6

Let us examine this relationship to 5 = 0 * infinity

0 + 0 = 0
0 + 0 = 0
0 + 0 = 0
(do I need to go on? Even an infinite number of additions of 0 to 0 will ever reach anything but 0 .....)

Now, what is 0 * 5? Why it is 0!
What is 0 * 3? Again, it is 0!
What is -5 * 0? Yes 0!
what is .5 * 0? AGAIN 0!

NOW WHAT IS 0 * infinity? ....... 0 .......

Therefore, 5 = 0 * infinity states that 5 = 0 ..... Is that a balanced equation??

What it demonstrates is that infinity cannot correspond to any real number, since all built in mathematical falsification techniques merely do not matter to the adherents of the concept. The concept is prettier than the truth.

Truly, I challenge anyone to mathematically PROVE the mathematical concept of infinity mathematically, as I will state again "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof".......... (All other truthfull mathematical concepts can do such.)

I can prove why x/y=z, can you? It will be an interesting debate at the very least for all!

Paul Andrulis

[Koen1]

Funny...

so "infinity" should not exist because we count in finite numbers, that's what it boils down to?

Did nobody explain to you that the entire idea of finite numbers is equally problematic?
After all, we can simply assume that there are finite numbers, like 1, 2, 3 etc...
But if we think about it, where exactly does 1 end and 2 begin? Is these something like a "zone" in which the value is 1, and the next "zone" where the value is 2? Generally it is agreed that we van use decimals to indicate sub-values. That's how we get 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, etc. Ok, so the "end" of 1 is at 1.9, and the "start" of 2 is at 2.0? Or is the "end" of 1 at 2.0 and the "start" of 2 at 2.1? Generally it is agreed that 2 "starts" at 2.0, but who can say that is actually, absolutely, the case?
And where exactly is the "end" of 1 then? Is it at 1.9, or at 1.99, or at 1.999? Think about it: there is NO "end" to 1. The "start" of 2 lies right after 1.9999999999999999999(-> to infinity).
So in fact our finite number system that works well when we are counting numbers of apples and cows and large tangiable worldly things like that, seems to fall apart upon close scrutiny. The nice and exact finite numbers turn out to be an illusion.

It is not a matter of infinity not existing. It is a matter of finity not existing, combined with the cognitive dissonance created by our inability to conclusively and directly observe inifinity in our everyday experiences.

Similarly, the value "zero" does not actually exist. Zero is actually the absence of something. It is in fact the symbol invented to signify the absence of a certain presumed value in a certain context. So in a way it is the expression of the logical concept of "not existing" in a way that can be used in calculations.
But in reality we cannot count something that does not exist. It either is, and then can have quantity, or it does not, in which case quantity is meaningless.
In fact, if we return to the process of attempting to determine where an exact numerical value "starts" and "stops" like seen above, we will quickly learn that we can keep counting down from 1 forever without actually ever reaching zero. The farther we count down, the smaller the quantity becomes, to infinity.

Again, it seems infinity is real, and our exact numeric system of natural numbers is not.
Clearly we must admit that the collection of numbers in existance is certainly not N, the collection of all Natural numbers, but at least it is R, the collection of all Real numbers. Which is infinitely large, as I have tried to show.

In fact, I believe this automatically gives rise to the collection of all imaginary numbers as well.
Which means "infinity" and things like pi, phi, the square root of -1, etc, are just as real as any other number, even though we cannot count them in exact numbers of apples.

[timmy1729]

Hello all!
I am really only trying to help here, so please do not take this as me being a jerk.

I’m a mathematics major in school(just a few more classes, woohoo!) and I can tell you there is nothing wrong with our number system. Did you know there is more than one infinity and that some are larger than others? Sure, we use different symbols for different infinities that aren’t 0123456789. There are an infinite number of infinities between 0 and 1. Trust me, finite minds can understand infinities. Sure, it’s a horrible mindf**k at first, but we eventually do. If you want to understand infinities, study the work of Georg Cantor. Study some Real Analysis, Set Theory and Number Theory too. If you can understand a basic derivative in Calculus 1, you understand infinity using our number system.

As for Pi, it is not an integer. It is an irrational real number. Its decimal representation is infinite. It is a simple ratio of a circle’s circumference to its diameter.

Don’t get too philosophical with this stuff guys. It really isn’t anything to philosophize about.