3 HP motor works with 116 V and 0.42 Amp. (But don't have enough power)

[wattsup]

@Hum

I knew knocking you off this board was a mistake, but after reading your post.....

take a deep breath first....think zen.....

I'm convinced I was right. Good job.

Here are some questions.

Example on my 5 hp RV PM set-up with the alternator is connected to the shaft but not excited, so no load or minimal load.

1) When I measure the input to the Prime Mover, I measure the voltage of 114 vac and current of 0.7 amps.

2) Now when I excite the alternator my PM amperage shoots up (even after the best capacitor regulation) to 5.3 amps but the alternator is only producing 13.65 volts DC at 9.3 amps. This is a 108 amp alternator. I tried by increasing the load on the alternator but no way to bring it up above 10.3 amps before the PM start to really slow down and stop. Also, the PM gets very hot.

3) Question, is the DC power from the alternator real or VAR, or is VAR only applicable to AC generators that are capped to the hilt.

4) Question. If instead of my alternator, I used an AC single phase generator without any other components, caps, or other. Is the power comming from the generator real power or reactive power.

5) Question. In essence, in laymans terms, what you are saying is as soon as the generator has capacitors connected to its output, the power is not real but VAR and the measurement taken off the generator, although they may show good numbers for amperage and voltage = watts, the true value is zero. So this still needs some more explaining.

6) Question. Are you intested in buying an RV set-up. I have one for sale. lol

Here's your report card for your POST.

Logic: 99% (only I get 100%) lol
Content: 85% (try to use some pictures, people love pictures)
Diplomacy: 65% (I know you're trying hard. I can sense you're holding back)
Harshness: 65% (We all have our limits, I know.)

Report Card Comment: Try a bring up the diplomacy and bring down the harshness but all in all, good job. Now wait till Hector responds as what you have pointed out is pivotal to the RV effort.

Boy, we should have all new OU proposals to pass the Humbugger test.

[gyulasun]

...
<<Hey Rich, what is this "10 amp shunt" ? I never heard the term before.
Mem|>>

Hello Mehmet,

A '10 amp shunt' is a robust precision resistor designed for passing 10 amper current safely (not heating up significantly and burning out) and you can measure the voltage drop across its two terminals: this voltage drop is propotional to the current and no need for a separate 10A current meter.

See this link out of many explanations: http://www.rc-electronics-usa.com/current-shunt.html

Regards
Gyula

[Humbugger]

@Hum

I knew knocking you off this board was a mistake, but after reading your post.....

take a deep breath first....think zen.....

I'm convinced I was right. Good job.  Thank you

Here are some questions.

Example on my 5 hp RV PM set-up with the alternator is connected to the shaft but not excited, so no load or minimal load.

1) When I measure the input to the Prime Mover, I measure the voltage of 114 vac and current of 0.7 amps.

2) Now when I excite the alternator my PM amperage shoots up (even after the best capacitor regulation) to 5.3 amps but the alternator is only producing 13.65 volts DC at 9.3 amps. This is a 108 amp alternator. I tried by increasing the load on the alternator but no way to bring it up above 10.3 amps before the PM start to really slow down and stop. Also, the PM gets very hot.

3) Question, is the DC power from the alternator real or VAR, or is VAR only applicable to AC generators that are capped to the hilt.   VAR or reactive power is a time-phase related phenomena and does not apply to true, steady-state ripple-free DC measurements.  It applies any time AC or cyclic time-varying "DC" is fed into a load that contains non-resistive (reactive, energy-storing) elements.  It is most prevalent (in ratio to real power) when reactance dominates resistance in any load, whether a motor, transducer, tuned RF circuit, transformer or just a big capacitor or inductor.  In most of these loads, we find maximum reactance when the coupling or loading is above or below the nominal design maximum values.  This is generally done by design to present the most resistive looking load at the maximum power level allowed by the continuous rating.

4) Question. If instead of my alternator, I used an AC single phase generator without any other components, caps, or other. Is the power comming from the generator real power or reactive power.    That depends on the load and the output impedance of the generator.  Even if the external load is virtually pure resistive (heater, incandescent lamp, resistor, well tuned RF load, etc) any reactive portion of the output impedance of the source (generator) will add reactive, imaginary portion to the power transferred.  That is why, in RF circuits tuned for maximum forward power transfer, we add compensating reactive elements between source and load to make a "conjugate match".  The output impedance of the generator is reverse-mirrored by tailoring the load to look equally reactive but in the opposite direction.  Add a series inductance to resonate away to zero a series capacitive reactance in the output source, for instance.
   
5) Question. In essence, in laymans terms, what you are saying is as soon as the generator has capacitors connected to its output, the power is not real but VAR and the measurement taken off the generator, although they may show good numbers for amperage and voltage = watts, the true value is zero. So this still needs some more explaining.   In real life, no load is ever 100% reactive or resistive.  AC loads all contain some reactance and some resistance.  My point to Ashwent, above, is that it is definitely cheating to measure forward energy flow for purposes of proving high efficiency while using a nearly pure reactive load, since it does not actually accept any energy.  In practical real world power transfers, there is always a ratio of real power and imaginery power.  At 0 degrees phase shift, it's purely real watts...resistive.  At 45 degrees its half and half and at 90 its pure reactive power.  If current leads voltage, the mismatch is capacitive; if voltage leads current, it's inductive.  At 50/60/400Hz AC line power frequencies, we refer to the ratio between real watts and VAR as power phase angle or sometimes it is called power factor (although that can refer to sine distortions in amplitude as well).  At RF, the ratio of reactive and real power is called VSWR for Voltage Standing Wave Ratio (ratio of reflected reactive power over forward real power) or just "mismatch".

6) Question. Are you intested in buying an RV set-up. I have one for sale. lol Nope...too much stuff already!

Here's your report card for your POST.

Logic: 99% (only I get 100%) lol
Content: 85% (try to use some pictures, people love pictures)
Diplomacy: 65% (I know you're trying hard. I can sense you're holding back)
Harshness: 65% (We all have our limits, I know.)

Report Card Comment: Try a bring up the diplomacy and bring down the harshness but all in all, good job. Now wait till Hector responds as what you have pointed out is pivotal to the RV effort. I know, I'm bad, especially if I think someone is purposely trying to mislead for their own benefit or to hide the truth from others because they don't want to face it themselves. 

Boy, we should have all new OU proposals to pass the Humbugger test.  No no no...all I want is for people to learn to do and discuss measurements of energy right and proper.  That alone will eliminate huge amounts of goose chasing, misunderstanding and frustration.

There...all hard to read and reddish glowing.  About pictures.  I have AutoCad, SolidWorks, Orcad Schematic Capture, some analog simulators, etc.  Like getting on the workbench and firing up the soldering iron and scopes, drawing pretty pictures is something I reserve for when I'm really motivated and usually getting paid well or thinking I am onto a big important idea.  These days, it's fairly rare, sad to say.  Anyway, I'm not sure what pictures I would have drawn so far for any of my rants.

Thanks for your constructive comments, criticisms and really good questions.  I hope some of it made sense and that I have not managed to dull your enthusiasm. It really is more fun and more productive to play the game if you know most of the rules and all of the language...even when busting out of the rules and adding to the language is the goal!

Humbugger

Afterthought:  Keep this in mind:  Elements that are termed "resistive" take in electrical energy and convert all of it to heat, light, sound, motion, EM waves or some other form of energy.  Pure "reactive" elements generally do not; they merely store and return or "circulate" the energy they take in.  A pure capacitor gives back all of the charge you store in it, delivering none out in other forms.  Same with an inductance if it is not magnetically coupled to other circuits with resistive loads in them.  A magnetic field is built up, but then collapses back on itself and reverses, over and over again.

So, it follows that when a source of power and potential work (the output of an energy delivering machine or source of any kind) finds only a reflecting reactive load made of pure L or C or a combination of the two but with no element that can absorb and convert electrical input energy to another form, the can be no forward power delivered to it on a continuing basis.  This is all standard textbook stuff and I'm not ashamed to say that I believe in it and have found no exceptions to it nor heard any credible evidence that refutes any of it.

A transformer will "look" like an inductance primarily, until a resistive load is hooked to the other side of it; then the primary looks mostly resistive, too.  A typical motor will appear mostly reactive once the free-wheeling shaft and armature attains speed and until the shaft is loaded down and input energy is then being converted to shaft work rather than just being stored as kinetic inertia.  Then it typically starts looking more resistive at the power input leads. 

Of course, adding external reactances will change the operating points around and, for certain situations, that can lead to higher efficiency at a given set of load and power transfer conditions.  So, there can definitely be merit in tuning your motor or other load for highest performance and efficiency if the conditions of operation are known and fixed.

Designers of standard off-the shelf general duty motors often can't optimize for any set of conditions except nameplate rated RPM and HP, leading to less-than-optimized performance at lower speeds and torques.  Engineering is said to be a game of compromises and optimizations given limited ranges of required performance i.e. "design specifications".  I find that to be very much true.

[Humbugger]

Here is a very good basic tutorial about power factor, complete with graphics and simple math.  It probably does a better job explaining and teaching about AC reactive power than I do in a few paragraphs of words.

The basic idea I'm trying to get across here is that loads that only reflect power back to their sources do not provide power for external work.  Therefore, it is not realistic, fair or honest to use reactive loads in demonstrations of a machine's electrical efficiency.  High apparent power output may impress the gullible, but it does not heat your home or turn the shaft of your motors or run your appliances.

For an essentially pure reactive load such as a capacitor bank, the output port of the machine being tested is also being used as an input port!  Only the tiny losses of the interconnecting wiring and dissipation factors of the capacitors comprise the net output forward power.  All other measured power is reactive and returned immediately to the source.

Link:http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/electricCircuits/AC/AC_11.html

The only correction I would make to this otherwise excellent basic tutorial is this:

"REVIEW:

In a purely resistive circuit, all circuit power is dissipated by the resistor(s). Voltage and current are in phase with each other.

In a purely reactive circuit, no circuit power is dissipated by the load(s). Rather, power is alternately absorbed from and returned to the AC source. Voltage and current are 90o out of phase with each other.

In a circuit consisting of resistance and reactance mixed, there will be more power dissipated by the load(s) than returned, but some power will definitely be dissipated and some will merely be absorbed and returned. Voltage and current in such a circuit will be out of phase by a value somewhere between 0o and 90o."

The reason for my correction being that the struck-out text is only true if the resistive portion is greater than the reactive portion.  Another way to correct the statement would be to change the lined-out word "dissipated" to "taken in" or "accepted".  "Dissipated" implies permanent conversion and dispersal, as in turning it into heat, light, vibration, radiated forms, rotary motion, etc.


Humbugger - promoting honesty in measurements and clarity in communications

[ashtweth_nihilisti]

Hi Hum and all,

Okay, the simple answer is, Hector and David Kou have used/extracted (not as conventional engineering would) your "VAR" or reactive power, as WATTS in a real load. And that is the justification of me stating what is stated based on that report. We are ATM replicating David Kous circuit to prove this.

Hector did it with the nodes lighting up light bulbs (again a watts load). David Kou did it on the run cap resonance with his neon switching circuit to charge a secondary battery with no reflection.

So what i said still stands Im afraid, if you use try to TAP the 'reactive power' CONVENTIONALLY, then what you say stands, we do not load it that way.

119.8 x .8 = 95.84W INPUT
203 x 5.1 * 1.732 = 1793W virtual reactive power OUTPUT
COP = 18.7

This can be tapped and has been by two engineers, you can dis prove them and replicate their findings if you wish.

Here is how we explain it
http://panacea-bocaf.org/files/RE-OU-v6_1.pdf

So i think although i could fine tune it for YOUR better understanding, if you read the RE-OU ebook you will see that this 'reactive'  power' is EXTRACTED in a different way.There is no Scam here, just open sourced circuits, and reports of it it being done and replications.