Back EMF vs Collapsed Spikes.....

[z_p_e]

I am looking for a more basic and fundamental answer to what is happening in a coil.

1) Why is the voltage potential already far far ahead in a coil, what is the voltage potential anyway in a coil?

2) what is the voltage potential (or wave) doing to electrons? as it passes them?

3) what does current do to to the electrons? and how does it effect them during transfer.

4) if voltage is ahead in a coil by 90deg, does it build a magnetic field or is this strictly a combination of current and voltage or just current?


These are the fundamental questions which no one seems to be answering?

I thank you for any responses you can provide!

Fred

Fred,

I'm sure I'll get torn apart here like usual, but here goes anyway. I'll try to answer some of your questions:

1) Think in terms of a STEP input to the coil...what happens? Well, the voltage has to go up instantly to the steady-state value of the step input right? Keep in mind that voltage is measured across the coil's terminals. But what of the coil current? Well, we know that the fundamental characteristic of an inductor (coil) is that its current can not change instantaneously, it resists change in current. So this means that the current must "charge" up similar to how voltage charges up on a capacitor. This is what causes the current to "LAG" the voltage in an inductor.

2) Voltage placed across a coil will cause electron flow via attraction. Electrons migrate towards the positive terminal.

3) Electron flow is the current. The electrons drift slowly towards the positive terminal, but crudely, as in the billiard ball effect, the "signal" is transfered to the other end almost instantaneously. Due to inductance however (whether it be a straight piece of wire or a coil), the current does not reach it's peak or maximum instantaneously, it takes time to get there, and the time is proportional to the inductance.

4) Refer to answers 1) and 2).

[libra_spirit]

Fred,

I can offer some alternate models and views to the text answers that Mark has pointed to. My answers are often not the classic ones at all, as spin has not been dealt with in electronics theory at all.

4) if voltage is ahead in a coil by 90deg, does it build a magnetic field or is this strictly a combination of current and voltage or just current?

The magnetic field is a function of the current and does not appear until after current is flowing in the coil. The formula is based on only turns and current. So we see here a c velocity E field moving with no magnetic field component on its leading edge.

3) what does current do to to the electrons? and how does it effect them during transfer.

It rips them off there valence orbit in the copper atoms where they are orbiting at almost c velocity. This drops their energy during the hop between atoms where they move very slowly, [ 1 coloumb] and gives rise to heat losses in the wire. The exit causes a vibration on the shells in the heat frequency range. In electronics we call it wire resistance. As the electrons are ripped off and travel slowly down the wire hopping atoms, there is a third force generated by the atom pushing at 90 degrees to the B field and 90 degrees to the E field. This third force is only present during a change of current, and as the current comes up to a static level as with DC, the 90 degree motion producing force stops. All AC motors use this method to propell the coils. They are called induction motors.

2) what is the voltage potential (or wave) doing to electrons? as it passes them?

If you view the E field as photons, [classic quantum physics], it is energizing the electron shells outer orbital shell. The shells absorb photons at a quantum level of energy referenced by planks constant. See NMR theory.

1) Why is the voltage potential already far far ahead in a coil, what is the voltage potential anyway in a coil?

Photons? Needles to say theoretically the E field can move down a wire and cause it to explode before current has started to flow. HV is some nasty stuff. How the classic theory people get photons flowing in a magnetic field is even harder for me to grasp as they must curve around the magnet in the air.

I have yet to see a good explination of how photons flow down the wire without shooting off it. But you can see there are two velocities for the energy, and what Bearden states is true, we can get energy through a wire without current.

1 - If the frequency is high enough there is no time for the electrons to hop. [Microwave waveguides]
2 - Photon flows, from either the electron shell or the Proton shell at c velocity, if the current is held by other means, such as spin alignment.

A capacitor has the strange ability to resist those photon flows! And delays the voltage from rising until 90 degrees after the current flows.
I would choose to explaine this with spin forces and how they align in the capacitor plates. The nuclear isotope line always links along the longest dimension of the copper. This prealigns the spin forces to interact differently with the conductor connected to it and alters its interaction with the photon flow.

This leads to the alternate view that if we flow E field down a wire inside a magnet with a prexisting magnetic field runing parallel with it, it will meet almost no resistance and electrons will avalanch without the delay. TPU is setup this way. The magnetic field preconditions the photon state of the shell and also aligns the spin to a zero resistance angle, and increases the NMR frequency as well. If we keep pulses short enough the spin will never turn from this angle, and presto zingo super conduction.

Unfortunatly photons want to move through the atom at 90 degrees to the electron flows spin angle, so it has to tilt back and forth moving between E field and B field sine type pulses both out of phase. If we restrict it to only a 90 degree tilt rather then a full 360 for sine waves then the velocity can be increased. Other options lock it into a 45 degree tilt with a forced precession, or a combination of frequencies and get a happy medium.

Dave L

No offense taken here. Where all just trying to learn. Thank you for your kind statement. I have read Rogers book many many years ago.. forgot about that...

I am looking for a more basic and fundamental answer to what is happening in a coil.

1) Why is the voltage potential already far far ahead in a coil, what is the voltage potential anyway in a coil?

2) what is the voltage potential (or wave) doing to electrons? as it passes them?

3) what does current do to to the electrons? and how does it effect them during transfer.

4) if voltage is ahead in a coil by 90deg, does it build a magnetic field or is this strictly a combination of current and voltage or just current?


These are the fundamental questions which no one seems to be answering?

I thank you for any responses you can provide!

Fred

[MarkSnoswell]

I am looking for a more basic and fundamental answer to what is happening in a coil.

1) Why is the voltage potential already far far ahead in a coil, what is the voltage potential anyway in a coil?

2) what is the voltage potential (or wave) doing to electrons? as it passes them?

3) what does current do to to the electrons? and how does it effect them during transfer.

4) if voltage is ahead in a coil by 90deg, does it build a magnetic field or is this strictly a combination of current and voltage or just current?

These are the fundamental questions which no one seems to be answering?

Good -- keep asking the hard questions.

I asked the same questions -- and many more fundamental ones before grasping exactly what is going on. Before you can get deeper answers to what is happening you have to move past the formalism and simplifications used to describe what is happening. Here is a incomplete and grossly simplified list that may assist you in seeing how things work at a deeper level:

1. Fields do not exist -- they are just mathematical constructs used to simplify calculations.
2. Everything is waves.
3. Electrons, protons and neutrons are spin waves -- these are 3+1 dimensional things.
4. Although you can talk about the components of spinors they are really single 3+1 dimensional things.
5. Stable waves (spinors) a resonant solutions that are referred to as particles - a very misleading term.
6. Electrons do not orbit the nucleus -- the nucleus sits within the electron spinner.
7. Charge is spin of space and mass is compression of space.
7. Magnetism is just a relativistic view of the motion of a spinner.
8. Photons don't exist as a separate entity - a photon is just a formalism for describing the exchange of energy via resonant intereaction of two resonant waves.

now the really tough ones:
Potential (voltage) is a reduction of entropy -- it arises from a separation of positive and negative spinors which forces a greater degree of interaction and order. The consequence of this is that there is a statistical pressure for the separates spinors to flow towards equilibrium -- this is what current is.

How you view things depends on the problem you are trying to solve. Sometimes classical views are most usefull. At other times a more fundamental view is easier.

As to why things like current and voltage are at right angles in harmonic oscillators goes to the deepest level of the structure of a functioning universe -- the fundamental question is why do kinetic and potential energy combine in a single thing that preserves the energy as an endless oscillation where the energy appears to be all kinetic (current) at some times and all potential (voltage) at other times. You will understand the fundamental answer only when you see that the energy in a harmonic oscillator is at all times just a single thing... at and given time a snapshot of the energy will reveal the kinetic and potential aspects.

Once you understand what is happening in the simple case of a harmonic oscillation then the next challenge is truly understandsing what spin is and how something can only return to it's original form after rotating 2n times. -- a key here is to understand that spin is a 3+ dimensional thing while rotation is a 2 dimensional concept. In out universe it's actually spin that is a real thing and rotation that is a virtual thing -- just like a field.

The renders and animations I posted in this thread may help you understand spin http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2764.0.html

cheers

mark.

[Liberty]

I am looking for a more basic and fundamental answer to what is happening in a coil.

1) Why is the voltage potential already far far ahead in a coil, what is the voltage potential anyway in a coil?

2) what is the voltage potential (or wave) doing to electrons? as it passes them?

3) what does current do to to the electrons? and how does it effect them during transfer.

4) if voltage is ahead in a coil by 90deg, does it build a magnetic field or is this strictly a combination of current and voltage or just current?

These are the fundamental questions which no one seems to be answering?

Good -- keep asking the hard questions.

I asked the same questions -- and many more fundamental ones before grasping exactly what is going on. Before you can get deeper answers to what is happening you have to move past the formalism and simplifications used to describe what is happening. Here is a incomplete and grossly simplified list that may assist you in seeing how things work at a deeper level:

1. Fields do not exist -- they are just mathematical constructs used to simplify calculations.
2. Everything is waves.
3. Electrons, protons and neutrons are spin waves -- these are 3+1 dimensional things.
4. Although you can talk about the components of spinors they are really single 3+1 dimensional things.
5. Stable waves (spinors) a resonant solutions that are referred to as particles - a very misleading term.
6. Electrons do not orbit the nucleus -- the nucleus sits within the electron spinner.
7. Charge is spin of space and mass is compression of space.
7. Magnetism is just a relativistic view of the motion of a spinner.
8. Photons don't exist as a separate entity - a photon is just a formalism for describing the exchange of energy via resonant intereaction of two resonant waves.

now the really tough ones:
Potential (voltage) is a reduction of entropy -- it arises from a separation of positive and negative spinors which forces a greater degree of interaction and order. The consequence of this is that there is a statistical pressure for the separates spinors to flow towards equilibrium -- this is what current is.

How you view things depends on the problem you are trying to solve. Sometimes classical views are most usefull. At other times a more fundamental view is easier.

As to why things like current and voltage are at right angles in harmonic oscillators goes to the deepest level of the structure of a functioning universe -- the fundamental question is why do kinetic and potential energy combine in a single thing that preserves the energy as an endless oscillation where the energy appears to be all kinetic (current) at some times and all potential (voltage) at other times. You will understand the fundamental answer only when you see that the energy in a harmonic oscillator is at all times just a single thing... at and given time a snapshot of the energy will reveal the kinetic and potential aspects.

Once you understand what is happening in the simple case of a harmonic oscillation then the next challenge is truly understandsing what spin is and how something can only return to it's original form after rotating 2n times. -- a key here is to understand that spin is a 3+ dimensional thing while rotation is a 2 dimensional concept. In out universe it's actually spin that is a real thing and rotation that is a virtual thing -- just like a field.

The renders and animations I posted in this thread may help you understand spin http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2764.0.html

cheers

mark.

"6. Electrons do not orbit the nucleus -- the nucleus sits within the electron spinner.
7. Charge is spin of space and mass is compression of space.
7. Magnetism is just a relativistic view of the motion of a spinner."

I have questions about these statements.  Do you have a picture diagram of number 6?

Also, since "charge is spin of space and mass is compression of space", if this is the case; what causes spin to occur and what causes compression of space to occur?

Can you explain why magnetism is just a relativistic view of the motion of a spinner?  Do spinners produce charges that strike each other when two magnets are in repel to one another?  What is it that we feel when we put two magnets in repulsion to one another?

Thanks for your thoughts.

[z_p_e]

I am looking for a more basic and fundamental answer to what is happening in a coil.

I was under the impression Fred was asking for a simplified explanation, not a thesis or PhD-level discourse.

Oh well, perhaps I was mistaken.