Muller Dynamo

[mondrasek]

We have to think a little bit out of the box for sure. In this picture I am showing the voltage output (red) and current (yellow) of one pair-coil. I have only two pair coil running.

Where are you taking readings?  Before the FWBRs or after?  Please be as specific as you can so no one makes incorrect assumptions that result in unintentional misinformation.

I am getting in very little rotation about 60ma (don't care about the voltage) output on the lamp.

Sorry, I didn't understand that.  Can you elaborate?

Noticed that there is a point where the voltage on that coil-pair is not in phase at all with the current on the output.

Interesting.  At what "point" do you see this phenom?

Also very interested if you have matched the o/p V of your coils exactly?  Also, are they wound with the exact same length of wire so you are sure the resistance is matched?  If not, check the o/p of each single coil in a pair on your scope and make sure the o/p V is exactly the same.  Adjust the gap between the coils and rotor until they are.  Then check the second pair for the same condition and maybe make sure they have the same ptp o/p as the first pair.

I am very interested in your results.  Please let us know what you learn.

M.

[mondrasek]

@neptune (et al)

I think I have solved the strange metering problems I have had recently.  I noticed that the L/C (Inductance and Capacitance) test button on my DMM was ON.  As I understand it, that would generate a low level ~60Hz (or maybe other frequency) signal on the probes for testing inductors and capacitors?  I would think that low level AC signal would not be turned on even if that button was pressed unless the meter was set to read H or C, but I think my meter does not have that fail safe setup.  I believe my weird readings were due to that low level AC signal that was introduced when I touched the + probe to my drive and/or output V.

Chalk another simple electrical measurement mistake up for this ME.

Readings are rock stable again with the L/C button OFF.

M.

[plengo]

Ok guys. Do not complicate this really. I am not trying to mislead anyone.

I am today playing with my motor. It is a beautiful day out there and I have the chance of some free time.

My logic goes like this. Romero said this motor is a very efficient motor. The bias magnets are very important. Coils are not that powerful. They are very low inductance, resistance and very small. They are not really capable of running a 2 amp load. They will simply burn. I can already smell my driving coils burning (2 of them) with only less than one amp flowing.

Romero also said he took a long time tuning. What tuning can he possibly do with coils glued to the rotor  and the whole assembly built?? can only be a few things.
- Biasing magnets on top and bottom of rotor.
- Load type , specifically resistance.
- Distance of stator/coils to magnets on the rotor.

With this very little info I built the motor to my best. Coils are around 3 to 4 ohms built on same exact length. Irrelevant how much wire. Just go and fill that little bobbin to its full and repeat the process 19 times. No secret here. No need for bifilar or any secret thingy. One can off course play with it but start with baby steps.

Once all is put together, go slow, start with one one generator coil. Do not focus on the input side of it. Romero IS NOT using bias caps or resonance. I could not see any of the that on the videos. Only one cap after ALL the FWBR connected together. So all coils are connected together at the output after the bridge. If resonance is at play I bet it is just a coincidence and he did not know it (forgive me for judging you Romero).

Put the load and run the beast. Now take all the magnets you have in your hand start putting them on the stator. One magnet at a time. Watch the output current. Use a one ohm resistor in series with the load. Put the probes cross that resistor and watch is wave (current). The other probe put cross the output coil anywhere you want. It does not matter. The whole dynamic is what is important. If the motor start running faster and current goes up, you are probably on the right path, otherwise start again. Take your time to put the magnets. At least 5 minutes each. Listen to the motor sound, watch the speed and the output wave. Let your BRAIN tell you what your intuition is telling you.

Forget about all the math now, it will not help at all. Once the motor is built it is too late for math here. Math is good only before building everything. I past that phase. If you go to crazy about the math you may fall for "analysis paralysis". Just build and play with it.

Your mind will be a better empirical instrument than you could ever imagine. Victorians were right. Today's concept of only quantitative is missing the importance of the qualitative that only our mind/body can measure. A meter will be as good as I can see the differential on the output, not if the math is matching. Every time I see my current meter showing 1 or 2ma more (I don't care the absolute) and can clearly see that moving my magnet by hand only 1/2 of millimeter is doing the right thing. How can one measure that with instruments the correct way?

I am playing the magnets position on the stator and the changes ARE DRAMATIC. Load is brighter, RPM is not that fast and sometimes slow is better. Just playing with for a few hours I already noticed that the motor works in harmonics of its rpm (or kind like of it).

One you have a certain speed and output a little bit of change (with a tiny magnet on the stator using your hand) you will see the motor just jump in speed, passes the barrier and start running faster until it hits another barrier with a speed that is pretty obvious to my ears, eyes and sound. Leave that magnet there. Get another one and start again. You will be surprise how much you can improve just doing that.

Watch the wave of the current versus the voltage dynamics. There are points where you will see spikes and the current gets out of phase of the voltage pretty quick and the RPM increases and so the load.

Whatever you have with your build just follow my steps above. There is no way you will not have an improvement in performance.

I don't have an OU motor yet. But if this is indeed true I will find it just by playing with it.

Fausto

[neptune]

@Plengo . "When  I am getting close to a good output , the motor starts to sound like it`s flying apart ." I have said it before and I will say it again . Remember Romero saying he had to turn off the machine after 5 hours in case the noise upset the neighbours ? I think there is a massive clue here . That noise is one of the parameters to listen for when tuning .What might be handy is a short video demonstrating that sound please ?

[lumen]

I agree, Romero did not use caps or resonance to achieve OU. Everyone forgets when he said it was too difficult to wind the coils. I think this is the real clue. I think he may have integrated into his coils something like a few turns in the opposite direction near one end of the coil facing the stator magnet, or possibly the first layer along the core was reversed.
Just a few windings in the opposite direction is known to raise the coils capacitance and possibly result in some of the same effects some have shown by using capacitors but yet further increasing the inductance.
It seems that some type of non symmetrical coil winding might be considered.
If the coil could reject any of the stator magnets forces using energy gained from the rotor magnet passing, then this already would show OU since the Lenz forces would have changed!