Power ratio over one

[handyguy1]

Hay wattsup:
You are very observant.  The copper colored coil is the driver coil (15-gauge), the green coils are output or generator coils 29-gauge. There are micro switches, and they change the polarity of power going into the driver coil. Both units are being run from the same battery and switch assembly.  I am using the four micro switches so I only have to use one battery. A diode has a negative effect on the input power.

There is a lot of interest and confusion on the device (my fault), so I?ll post the same details as I posted on ou_builders. It will take me a little bit, but I post pictures here to.

There is a lot of confusion about the waveforms and associated math, so what I?ll do is, anyone who wants it I?ll send them in an e-mail attachment. If you don?t want your e-mail made public, send me your e-mail address via my e-mail listed below. The program to open the file is free at http://www.dataq.com/?source=googledq

The program is Windaq waveform browser. If you ?save as? check box #5 for spreadsheet. Opening it in excel you will get moment-by-moment readings. Line 1 is input voltage across a .05-ohm precision current sense resistor (for input amps). Line 2 is voltage input at the driver coil terminals. Line 3 is the output voltage across a .05-ohm precision current sense resistor (for output amps). Line 4 is voltage output measured at the output coils terminals.

This was taken with an almost dead battery. I calculate one cycle starting at a zero voltage on line four. Zero to zero is one-half cycle. I don?t know why I didn?t think of this earlier. It should help clear things up. If you want to see how I do the math, I can send a second attachment with my calculations.

Thanks for your interest.
David Middleton
handyguy1@verizon.net

[handyguy1]

Hay Group:
The following is not one hundred percent complete, however it is a good start. Please feel free to ask any questions you may have. There are two videos on you tube, under the heading, power ratio over one!

PS: Here are the links to the videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HHQzWyLTBI  and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzUcmYiHF5E
David Middleton?s Power Ratio Over One
Proof of concept apparatus
Material List:
1.   Base; the base is a ?? thick x 8?wide  x 28? long, pine board
1-B. Base support ? scrap ?? boards
2.   Axle support; 4 wood block supports measuring, 5? long, 1? wide, 1.5?high
3.   Axle 1/8? x 30?
3-A- 4? axle overhang
4.   Teeter engaging lever (1) hard wood, 5.5? long, 1? wide, 1/8? thick
5.   Fender washers (10) 1/8? x 1?
6.   Hex Nuts (40) 6x32
7.   Washers  (20) 1/8? x 13/16?
8.   Axle alignment eye hook, (4) #
9.   Plastic tubing ?? x 12?
10.   Screws (4) 1.25?
11.   NdFeB grade N40,Neodymium magnets, (6) ?? thick 4? long 1? wide(magnet4less.com)
12.   Micro switch (4) Cherry ? E51
13.   Bolt, (6) 1/8? x 3?
14.   Copper nails (2) 1.5?
15.   Driver coil, single strand,  magnet wire 15 gauge, inside opening  4-5/8? long, 1-5/8? wide, ?? thick, weight
15a, ?? thick lauan
16.   Output coil, double strand, 29 gauge, ?? thick, opening same as driver coil, approx. 3+-LBS
17.   Output coil, double strand, 29 gauge, ?? thick, opening same as driver coil, approx. 4+-LBS
18.   Switch base, ?? x 8? x 16?
19.   Teeter board, hard wood, 5.5? long, ?? wide, ?? thick
20.   Teeter ell bracket support, ?? wide, 1-1/2 x 1-1/2? cut to fit
21.   Switch support block, ?? thick, 1-1/2? long, 1? tall
22.   Cell holder
23.   Power in terminals, Copper nails (2) 1-1/2?
24.   Output attachment terminals, copper nails (2) 1-1/4?
Additionally: Scrap ?? boards

MPR>1 Assembly
By far the most challenging part of this reproduction will be spinning the coils. Several internet sites explain the process quite well. A few pointers starting with the driver coil; I used 15-gauge wire. I suspect that using a heaver gauge wire with fewer turns would have a beneficial effect. The windings have to be as tight as possible. As shown in the photos, the coil is wrapped in tape in an attempt to keep the coil as tight as possible. Still, when the device is running if I push down on the coils I can clearly hear the speed pick up. The placement of the axle supports (#2) and the magnets (#11) depends on the size of the coils, so the coils will have to be made first. That said:
1.   On the base (#1), measure and draw a line lengthwise down the center from end to end.
2.   On each axle support (#2), measure for the center, draw a line across the center and down each side. The purpose being, the lines on the axle support (#2)will line up with the center  line on the base (#1) to keep the axle (#3) straight, and the line on top of the axle support block (#2) will be where the eye hook (#8) is screwed in.
3.   Screw in the eyehook (#8) into the axle support blocks (#2) on the top centerline. Leave about (1/8?) of the shaft exposed.
4.   Place one of the axle support blocks (#2) at one end of the base (#1) aligning the centerlines. From under the base, screw one stainless steel screw (#10) up into the axle support, anywhere along the length.
5.   Cut a piece of lauan slightly larger than the driver coil (#15). Use hot glue to glue the driver coil (#15) to the lauan. Place the glued down driver coil (#15) against the axle support (#2) that was secured in place in step (4).
6.   Screw a nut (#13) onto the axle (#3) approximately 4-1/4? from one end of the axle (#3). Slide two fender washers (#5) on to the axle (#3) followed by another nut (#13). Leave approximately 4-1/2? between the nuts (#13). Leave approximately 3? of the axle (#3) overhanging the first axle support (#2) to (Later) attach the Teeter engaging lever (#4).
7.   Place the second axle support block (#2) a distance of a ?? away from the driver coil (#15) and use a stainless steel screw (#10) to secure the second axle support from underneath, be sure to align the center lines.
8.   Cut a piece of tubing (#9) approximately 3-1/4? long. Slide the tubing (#9) from the long end of the axle (#3) through the eyehook (#8).
9.   From the long end of the axle (#3) screw a nut (#13)followed by two fender washers (#5)and another nut (#13) approximately 13? from the shorter end.
10.   Place the first output coil (#16) on the base (#1) approximately ?? from the second axle support (#2).
11.   Slide the third axle supports (#2) eye          hook (#8) down the axle (#3) to approximately ?? away from the output coil (#16).
12.   Cut a piece of tubing (#9) approximately 3-1/4? long. Slide the tubing (#9) from the long end of the axle (#3) through the eyehook (#8).
13.   From the long end of the axle (#3) screw a nut (#13)followed by two fender washers (#5)and another nut (#13)
14.   Place the second output coil (#17) on the base (#1) approximately ?? from the third axle support (#2).
15.   Slide the forth axle supports (#2) eye          hook (#8) down the axle (#3) to approximately ?? away from the output coil (#16).
16.   Place the second axle support block (#2) a distance of a ?? away from the driver coil (#15) and use a stainless steel screw (#10) to secure the second axle support from underneath, be sure to align the center lines.
17.   Cut a piece of tubing (#9) approximately 3-1/4? long. Slide the tubing (#9) from the long end of the axle (#3) through the eyehook (#8).
18.   Installing the permanent magnets (#11) over the  coils (#15,16,17)
Space the hex nuts (#13) and fender washers (#5) at least 4-1/2? apart. Tape the fender washers (#5) to the axle(#3).  Place one of the magnets (#11) between the fender washers (#5). The axle (#3) should be in the middle of the magnet (#11). If you value your digests wear leather work gloves to set the second magnet (#11) in line with the first. Use 4 nuts (#13) as spacers, two above and two below the axle (#3). Un tape the fender washers (#5). Adjust the magnets (#11) to the centers of the coils (#15, 16, and 17). Do the driver coil (#15) first, then the other two. Snug the hex nuts (#13) up with your fingers. This is where it gets tricky! I use a 3? crescent wrench, but an open-end wrench will do. The trick is to approach the nuts (#13) longitudinally along the axle (#3). If you do not, the magnet will snatch the wrench, and it is quite the struggle to get it off! Whichever pole is facing you, make sure the others match. Use a compass.
19.   On the 3? axle (#3) overhang, Install the teeter engaging lever (#4) with a nut (#13) and fender washer (#5) on each side, tighten.

THE SWITCHES

1.   The switch (#12) base (#18) has two slots. From an edge, one slot is 1? from the edge and the second is 4-1/4? from the edge. A saw blade width is acceptable. The slots should extend about 5? from the back end of the base (#18)
2.   Set the switch support block(#21) on a flat surface. Set a switch (#12) in front of the Support block (#21). Using a finish nail or equivalent push the nail through each aperture to make a divot.
3.   Drill 1/8? holes through the switch support blocks (#21) using the divots as a guide.
4.   Drill a 1/8? hole down centered through the top of the switch support block
5.   Insert two bolts (#13) through the two apertures on the front of the switches (#12), followed by hex nuts (#6).
6.   Screw on another hex nut (#6) on each bolt (#13) approximately ?? from the first hex nut (#6)
7.   Slide the second switch onto the bolt (#13) up to hex nut (#6), followed by the switch support block (#21), followed by another nut (#6)
8.   Insert a bolt (#13) through the slot, up from the bottom of the switch base (#18) followed by a washer (#7) and another hex nut (#6).
9.   Screw yet another hex nut (#6) on the upright bolt (#13) approx 1? from the preceding hex nut (#6)followed by a washer (#7)
10.   Slide the switch support block (#21) down onto the upright bolt (#13) followed by a washer (#7) and another nut
11.   Position the switches (#12-A and 12AA) levers, so that line up, this should automatically align switch levers (#12-B and 12-BB)
12.   The distance between switch levers (#12-A and 12-B) is approximately 1?.
13.   Half way between the switch levers is the teeter  support and board (#19 and 20)
14.   The teeter support (#20) is a standard ell bracket. Starting in the center at each end, a grove is cut longitudinally, wide enough to accompany an 1/8? bolt (#13). One end is secured to the switch base (# 18) with a bolt and nut assembly through the middle slot. In the vertical portion of the ell bracket (#20) a bolt (#13), nut (# 6) and washers (#7)are fastened.
15.   The teeterboard (#19) is slid onto the horizontal bolt and loosely secured with a washer and nut assembly.
The wiring
1.   Switch (#12-A) common terminal to terminal (#23-A)
2.   Switch (#12-A) NO (center) terminal to terminal (#22-A)
3.   Switch (#12-AA) common terminal to terminal (#23-B)
4.   Switch (#12-AA) NO (center) terminal to terminal (#22-B)
5.   Switch (#12-B) common terminal to terminal (#22-A)
6.   Switch (#12-B) NO (center) terminal to terminal (#23-B)
7.   Switch (#12-BB) common terminal to terminal (#23-A)
8.   Switch (#12-BB) NO (center) terminal to terminal (#22-B)

Power in
1.   Positive to terminal (#22-A)
2.   Negative to terminal (#22-B)

Adjustments
The coils:
1.   At the 3? axle, overhang end, Position the driver coil under the permanent magnets. Insert a second and third piece of lauan under the coil. Looking down on the coil, rock the magnets back and forth make sure the coils center is centered on the magnets, and there is no danger of the magnets hitting the coil. Drill down through the lauan into the base, in front of and behind the magnets. Insert a nail or screw through the holes.
2.    Output coils: Position the output coil under the permanent magnets. Place  a scrap ?? board under the coils l. Looking down on the coil  Rock the magnets back and forth make sure the coils center is centered on the magnets, and there is no danger of the magnets hitting the coil. No need to anchor the output coils down.
The switches
There are several options for the switch adjustments. My first choice was to use a diode; however, they had a noticeable negative effect. My second choice was to use two switches and two power sources (batteries), however, the possibility of getting a bleed over between the batteries was a possibility.  Using four switches and one battery, the possibility of incorrect readings is greatly reduced.
1.   With the teeter board holding down switch levers 12-B and 12-BB:
a.   Using a pencil with an eraser; push down the lever of switch 12-B. If you hear a click, an adjustment is needed, by adjusting the height of the teeterboard or the switch itself.
b.   With the teeterboard, depressing switch levers 12-B and BB, switches 12-A and AA should both click when depressed.

[hartiberlin]

Here are the pictures from David from the ou_builders yahoogroup:

[hartiberlin]

I think,
this infofrom David was not yet posted:

Re: Power ratio over one

Test Procedures
Electromagnetic driver coil (Motor)
The driver coil is powered by a typical 1.2-volt rechargeable
battery. There are four mechanical micro switches controlling the
movement of the permanent magnet rotor (axle). Each switch
represents one pole of the battery. Each set of switches represents
one direction of the permanent magnets. Input measurements are taken
on the downstream side of the switches. In this analysis, the power
requirements etc. for the mechanical micro switches are not accounted
for. The data recorder test leads, attach directly to the driver coil
terminals, recording the input voltage. By placing a .05-Ohm 1%
precision current sense resistor, between one driver coil terminal
and a switch post, the voltage across the resistor is measured, and
divided by .05.
Output coil, (Generator)
The output coil's permanent magnets attach to the same rotor (axle)
as the driver coil permanent magnets. The voltage is taken at the
output coils terminals. A .05-Ohm precision current sense resistor
attaches to one terminal and the load, which is a 100K ohm resistor.
The voltage across the precision resistor is divided by .05. (Also,
See scienceshareware.com)
Channel settings
Channel 1 represents input volts across a .05 Ohm 1% precision
current sense resistor. (Gain=256) (3600Hz)
Channel 2 represents input volts measured at the driver coil
terminals. (Gain=32) (3600Hz)
Channel 3 represents (output) volts across a .05Ohm 1% precision
current sense resistor. (Gain=512) (3600Hz)
Channel 4 represents (output) volts at the output coil terminals.
(Gain=1) (3600Hz)
Run test-RMS Mode:
Export moment by moment results to Excel.
Column A, is input voltage across the .05 Ohm resistor. ---Insert
column---
Column B, is column A divided by .05, giving input amperage.
Column C, is input voltage. ?insert two columns
Column D, is column B (Amps) times column C (Volts) = VA=Apparent
power input).
Column E is blank
Column F is output voltage across a .05 Ohm 1% resistor. ?insert
column?
Column G is column F divided by .05, for output amperage.
Column H is output voltage.
Column I is column G (Amps) * column H (Volts)= VA=Apparent power
output.
Finding RMS values for amperage and voltage from moment to moment
readings in the RMS mode.
In Excel, =sqrt(sumsq(B1:B10)/counta(B1:B10)) RMS=VA or Apparent
Power.
Finding True Average power =AVERAGE(B1:B10)
Using a spreadsheet compute the product of the voltage and current
for each sample. These values are the instantaneous power. Sum the
instantaneous power values. Then divide this sum by the number of
samples in the cycle. This value is the true average power.


Power Factor Computation.
The power factor is the average power divided by the apparent power.
The apparent power is Vrms * Irms.

PF*Avg. volts*Avg. Amps= TRUE Average POWER
Power Ratio= True output Power / True Input Power
Cycle= starting at zero volts output , through a positive and
negative cycle, first half, second half and complete cycle totals are
calculated.

--- In ou-builders@yahoogroups.com, "David Middleton" <handyguy1@...> wrote:
>
> Test Procedures
> ....Output coil, (Generator)
> The output coil's permanent magnets attach to the same rotor (axle)
> as the driver coil permanent magnets. The voltage is taken at the
> output coils terminals. A .05-Ohm precision current sense resistor
> attaches to one terminal and the load, which is a 100K ohm resistor.
> ...Channel 3 represents (output) volts across a .05Ohm 1% precision
> current sense resistor. (Gain=512) (3600Hz)

Hi Dave,

You have made a very interesting setup indeed.  (I have just seen the 2 videos too.)

At overunity.com you wrote:  "The device is powered by a 1.2-volt 500mAh AA battery. ....  The input is peak 1+amps, and .9 volts.  The output is peak .1+ amps and up to 60 volts, and operates at 2-10Hz as an approximation range."

And now I see you wrote using a 100K Ohm resistor as a load, of course you can but I would rather use 5 or 10  or 20 Ohm resistor as a load simply because these values approach practical useful loads like a lamp or LED array etc.  Is the 100K Ohm a misprint?  (It would mean only 0.5mA peak current at 50V peak output voltage. )   Because you use a Gain of 512 setting on Channel 3, I am afraid it is not a misprint.   If you load your output coil(s) with a 10 Ohm resistor for instance, do you notice backdrag  and some heat in the resistor already?

I am still interested in how you eliminated back emf as you wrote at overunity.com?  Also what is the effect of Lenz law in your setup?

Probably you have thought of reducing the noise your device producing?  I would suggest using elastic bumpers made from repel pole magnets.  You could attach one-one magnet at the ends of the arm #4 and one-one magnet on the surface of the base where the arm normally knocks at.  There would not be any knocking noise any more because the repel poles would never clap together.  And due to the big flux change at the area between the two surfaces of the approaching repel magnets, you could use this as a means of getting extra induced output power in flat coils placed there.  What do you think?

Regards,   Gyula


Hay Gyula:
Very good questions! You are actually way ahead of me. The first law
of thermodynamics clearly states that I cannot get more out than what
was put in. "My primary goal" is to prove that is not true, verses
making a device to power a load. I am at the stage of just being
born, your thoughts are grown up and running. Does that make any
sense to you? Faraday made the first motor in 1821. The motor was
not useful until 1875. You clearly show that you practice critical
thinking, and have the ability to follow in Gramme and Siemens
footsteps. I strongly urge you to pursue that goal.

Starting with loading the coils with a 10-ohm resistor. Yes there is
a back drag. It actually stops the device. Using lamps stops the
device. LEDs will stop the device if I don't use enough of them,
However, if the voltage of the LEDs match the coils output, there is
no back drag whatsoever. I have no idea on why Lenz law does not
apply, it's beyond me.

I don't see using the device to directly power a load. Charging a
cap, then drawing off that keeps the device running as if there is no
load. In the video, the loads on the 3# coil (center coil) are 28
LEDs (14 forward, 14 reverse) in series. There are 18 LEDS (8 forward
8 reverse) in parallel, hooked in series with the 28 LEDs. The
voltages of the LEDs are 3.0 to 3.8 volts and the amperage
requirement is 25mA. Using 10mA's as a low requirement to power the
LEDs, that's 90mA's in total.

Using a 100k ohm resistor in series with a .05-ohm resistor, I can't
find any heat. Both resistors "feel" cold. Straight out, resistance
is a mystery to me.

As far as the noise is concerned, I decided to remove the cushions
under the teeterboard, to show the intensity of the movement. Yes,
there are several ways to reduce the noise. Your idea is one, another
is to put a piezoelectric type device under the teeterboard and
harvest more power that way.

--- In ou-builders@yahoogroups.com, "David Middleton" <handyguy1@...>
wrote:

> ... Starting with loading the coils with a 10-ohm resistor. Yes there
is
> a back drag. It actually stops the device. Using lamps stops the
> device. LEDs will stop the device if I don't use enough of them,
> However, if the voltage of the LEDs match the coils output, there is
> no back drag whatsoever. I have no idea on why Lenz law does not
> apply, it's beyond me.


Hi Dave, thanks for your kind words. I am sorry to hear that using a
10 Ohm load or similar stops your device. I think it shows you have
not defeted Lenz law in this setup.


> I don't see using the device to directly power a load. Charging a
> cap, then drawing off that keeps the device running as if there is no
> load. In the video, the loads on the 3# coil (center coil) are 28
> LEDs (14 forward, 14 reverse) in series. There are 18 LEDS (8 forward
> 8 reverse) in parallel, hooked in series with the 28 LEDs. The
> voltages of the LEDs are 3.0 to 3.8 volts and the amperage
> requirement is 25mA. Using 10mA's as a low requirement to power the
> LEDs, that's 90mA's in total.


Well, this means you load your output separately with respect to the
half waves, in one full cycle you load say the positive half wave only
at a time and then the negative half wave, never both at the same time.
While this is a clever thing to do you have to be very careful to
estimate the true load on the output.


> Using a 100k ohm resistor in series with a .05-ohm resistor, I can't
> find any heat. Both resistors "feel" cold. Straight out, resistance
> is a mystery to me.


But this is not a mistery now that we know you have had 100K Ohm as a
load because the current allowed to flow in it is under one microAmper,
hence its heating effect is barely noticable by us.


> As far as the noise is concerned, I decided to remove the cushions
> under the teeterboard, to show the intensity of the movement. Yes,
> there are several ways to reduce the noise. Your idea is one, another
> is to put a piezoelectric type device under the teeterboard and
> harvest more power that way.


Yes, piezoelectric devices are good but one has to find efficient ways
to convert their HV output into useful power (maybe with transformers).

I hope other members here would also comment their understandings on
your device.

Thanks, Gyula

[hartiberlin]

Hi David,
One interesting thing I see in your
setup is, that you use low current and high voltage
at your LEDs to drive all the LEDs in series
for the output and that this is not dragging down
your magnet inside your coils.
Maybe this is the only way to overcome
Lenz?s law ?

As one could get the same power out from a
low turn coil for instance from 10 Volts and 1 Amp = 10 Watts
or from 1000 Volts and 10 milliamps = 10 Watts.
But if you load the second generator coils at 1000 Volts
just only with 10 milliamps, you might not get the
same drag onto the driving magnet
as in the first example, where you would have to extract
1 Amp ?

Normally it should be the same,
but maybe it is not with bigger coils.

Surely if you use pulsed output, so if you
chop up your output voltage and also use the BackEMF
from it you can get lots more power out without more drag.
That is one trick I learned from the Newman setups.

Just use a mechanically controlled toggle switch to shortout your
output coils each about repetive several 5 milliseconds ON / 5 ms OFF for each rotation
and use the BackEMF voltage from the coil
to power your series LED chain.

Good luck.

Regards, Stefan.