Need Help With My New Concept & Idea, Working Cell

[leftwings22]

I created a new concept for a cell, and it actually works too!  I am requesting some help on the electronics side.  I have already ordered a PWM, Lawton style, from www.pwmpower.com.

Also, other material I can use for the perf board (bakelite), instead of the Radio Shack project boards.  I realize there is a pleathera of material out there, but I need the holes already made in it, and cannot be conductive.  I am thinking Lexan, or ceramic.  Any ideas?

Here are my vids at youtube...

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Leftwings22

I appreciate all the help I can get.  I plan on making a bigger one, once I get a material that can stand being submerged in water 24/7.  Once you see my video, you will understand more of what I mean, as the perfboard becomes quite fragile over time in the water.

Please bear with me here folks, I am a newbie here!

[The Eskimo Quinn]

Good to see some good old fashion hydrogen burning at home (quite right a touch dangerous but fun) Ok I don't see the problem you are having, the material can just be polycarbonate, not brittle and super strong, there is no heat factor here as far as amps goes, or your a dead man anyway, so that for material is fine.

As for the holes, simply make up a pattern on a computer and print it out to size and take your squares to someone who has a good drill press, side box two sides to keep square and drill them all at once, it would probably cost you 20 bux to pay someone to do this. i wouldn't be too concerned with prototypes at this level, mass production of a good invention is a different story anyway. hey if you can scratch up about 250 dollars you could go about 3 times bigger using 2 mm silver wire, the best conductor of all.

your only real concern here is the flash point exposure you are creating at the top, as the wires get closer together the arc distance gets more attainable and as the amps rise, arcing between the rods in a high gas region will end up fatal especially as the device size and output increases sufficiently to kill you, oh, it won't be some huge blast, just one big enough to tear off a piece of that rod and fire it in your direction "keep your device submerged at all times without a flange and gas extraction unit.

Last thing, the reason you are gaining more gas as you raise the end, is that you are lowering you primary conductors into the water so they can just send the current directly to each other not through the rods only, yes it is a tough build that point at each end, you tube is the correct answer and so is horizontal position so as not to have the level lower at one end than the other.

[leftwings22]

WOW! Thanks for the tips Eskimo Quinn!

I have a drill press, and know how to use it properly, but to get all those tiny holes (11 per inch) to drill exactly right, well I was thinking more in the line of a CNC type thing, or if somebody knows of something already on the market, but better than the perf board.

I never thought of silver wire, and the first I have heard of it in producing HHO.  99% of all I have read is SS at different grades.  Will the Silver Wire work better?  I limited the size to what it was, just to test it out.  Its a difficult and time consuming project to put that together, and I was not certain it would work!  The square size also is what will fit into a 4" PVC pipe.  I plan on making the nest one with 3x the wire, but with a better material than the perf board, that will last the test of time. 

I realize polycarbonate is the way to go, just have to find someone or something that has what I need, or can modify to work with.

I was even thinking of using 1/8" SS welding rod (I know a few boilermakers around, so I can get plenty!), but the SS mig wire seems to be working quite well, so I will shelf that idea until another time.

Another concern now is the electronics side.  I ordered a PWM, and have to learn just HOW to use it.

After some comments I recieved, I realize I may have not made it clear...  The + side and - side are totally seperate, as they are not touching each other at ANY point (short), except in the water itself.  I just wanted to make that clear to all.

My ULTIMATE goal is to make enough HHO to run a Chevy 350 I have laying around that I can use as a test motor, in a shop, on an engine stand...  Then go from there.  But FIRST, heat my shop!  LOL!  I dont wanna be using firewood while playing with HHO!

Until then, I will continue to learn, tinker and tweek!

I also think I will have to re-think the PVC pipe idea, as a horizontal set-up seems to be what would work best.  This way, I could also put in 2, 3, 4 + cells like this to get up to the HHO production level to actually be able to do something with.

Sorry for rambling, just so many ideas.  Since getting interested in HHO production, its always on my mind now, and its even hard to sleep!  LOL!

I appreciate all the help and ideas that I can get!  Thanks folks!

"100% of the shots you dont take wont go in!" - Wayne Gretzky

[The Eskimo Quinn]

I'm more of a physics man myself and have made a few hydrogen burners in the past, but always a separation field setup, producing the hydrogen and oxygen into separate flasks, the browns gas or HHO depending on your take is usually a chemical flaw between the water types and the metal, producing both gases simultaneously in a separated form due to the gas anomalies that rectify very quickly in many cases, carbon is the better conductor for hydrogen alone for cost and manipulation, silver is simply the best electrical conductor for most purposes, some forms of the device are actually producing chlorine gas due to water content and salt saturation levels.

Try the different metal variants, and remember that the field created by having the lines so close together and cutting each other is part of something else overlooked by many, however there is also a point where this shuts down. like dropping a lit cigarette into a bucket of petrol usually does nothing, but drop it into a bucket with a puddle of fuel with a lot of fumes and its a whole different board game.

One thing you will not read in many if any posts on any site is an overlooked basic is physics pertaining to electricity, close fields cause choke, it is how you make inverters and transformers by winding the wire against itself choking the current, the correct distance between the rods may be the key to a perfect invention of your chosen type, maximum amp usage with minimum field distance. one of the key components in heating is frequency, most people don't know this, they use volt amps x watt density over time, where frequency is perfection. Microwaves use this principal, in your case the closest I've see to zero heat frequency oscillation is the pond fog oscillator, you can get them for about ten bux at most irrigation places for ponds, you know the devices that make the fog float on top of the water? Frequency to produce cold vapor. This may help you in your quest.

Hope I have not added too much confusion to the issue, Me? I would take you device and cut it in half leaving the middle section as is (like half a salami) and use each half in a separation chamber to produce h and o apart, it is actually a very clever design making use of better surface area per kilo of conductor, a new invention in itself.

[leftwings22]

Thanks for your input again Eskimo Quinn!

Well, for the time being, I will stick with the SS as a metal of choice, as I already have a supply of it, and have a source for it (free in most cases for small amounts). 

Is it possible to get carbon wire?  How durable is it?  Where would I begin to locate carbon rods? 

As for chlorine gas, I am using just well water here, I live in a rural area, and our well has been tested, no salt in the water, but I will still change to using just Distilled water from now on, just as a precaution.

I have been thinking of the SS welding rods as a design, because easier to work with, and for drilling holes, making final connection assembly, etc.  I can also weld those rods on the ends for a final connection to the + side and - side with my mig.  But it seems that the small .030 wire really works well here!  I will create a bigger cell first with more SS wire.

I wouldnt know how to begin making separation chambers for the H & O.  Perhaps if I get enough HHO production to warrant the effort, you would be interested in assisting in that endevour?  Just a thought... 

I understand your point about pond foggers, but how would I go about applying that into my cell?  Have maybe a deeper container, as a "well" for the water supply, so the fogger has a continuous supply?  Would this then be changing to a vertical design if still using the PVC pipe?  I had thought of running a cars wiper washer motor or a fish tank pump, kind of manifolded, to get more water flow through the cell, but the fogger may be the way to go, if I understand it more for the physical application...

Chokes, inverters and transformers...  Thats where I get lost.  I really want to keep my cell submerged in water, and I really dont want to blow myself or my shop up to smitherines.  That would be what I consider a bad thing!  LOL!  So, creating an arc in a HHO cell is something I would prefer to avoid at this time!!  I like my body like it is, my shop could stand for some improvements, but this is definitely NOT the way to achieve that result!
I think the PWM I ordered will help in a lot of ways...  And that arcing is another reason I want to find a better product to use other than the Radio Shack perf board.

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of the fogger.  This could really be something that again makes my cell stand apart from the others, other than design itself. Like the quote...  "If you always do what you (and everybody else) has done, then you will always get what you (& they) have always got".  The plate and tubes are what everyone else is working on, so I wanted to expand the field of HHO production, and go into a completely new idea and design, but using the same principles.

Again, thanks a lot for your input Eskimo Quinn, the fogger idea really has me thinking now, I have to find some on the Internet to see how I can use it, and perhaps re-think the cell design itself, to incorporate it appropriately.

"100% of the shots you dont take wont go in" - Wayne Gretzky