Thane Heins Perepiteia.

[JustMe]

Thanks Vince...I always look forward to your posts.   Anxious to hear what the analysis on this will be...

[LarryC]

Hi guys;

MORE FUEL FOR THE FIRE !

I while back I posted a drawing of a possible way to measure the torque of the motor while it was running.  I modified my motor to this design and have done several tests to try and determine if there was an increase in torque.  My motor stator  is mounted on bearings and it is free to rotate opposite to the shaft rotation with an arm mounted at one end .  The arm contact point is 6" radius from the centerline of the shaft. When the shaft turns the stator turns in the opposite direction to counter the force required and is resisted by a scale. Unfortunately I do not have a digital scale and it is not that accurate. It does show differences in force and that is the important part for now.

Here is my setup.
http://picasaweb.google.com/vincemormile/TorqueTest?authkey=w_64OCgYnxI

Here is my findings albeit not that scientific.
Maximum force exerted at 6" radius with the motor stalled is 6 grams  2.4 amps draw 120 volt
Force with the motor running at no load no rotor (stabilized) 1.5 grams  1.5 amps 120volt

Introduce the 8 small coils and rotor,no connection,  minimum speed setting, 1.5 grams, 1.5 amps 120volts
Short all 8 coils minimum speed setting > 1.5 grams, 1.5 amps 120volts

Introduce 1 large coil and rotor, no connection, minimum speed setting 1.7 grams 1.6 amps 120 volts
Short  output of single coil,speed accelerates, 2.7 grams,1.6 amps 120 volts

In every test I have done the motor counterforce (which can be calculated into torque) increases with the coil shorted.
My meters have not shown any corresponding increase in amps drawn from the line or voltage spikes.
In all my attempts at this it is showing a slight increase in torque with no increase in current draw.
I know the increase in force is small but keep in mind that the the motor only makes 6 grams at full stall so 1 gram is significant.

Regards
Vince

Bravo Vince, great testing. Your 37% (based on the final value) or 59% (based on the original value) increase in relative torque is certainly not insignificant for the same current level. It is very interesting that the large core and coil is required for the best results. What arrangements of magnets are you using, alternating poles or the same poles?

Thanks,
Larry

[JustMe]

Would there be any value in trying this at higher motor speeds where I believe there has been reduced (or no) acceleration with the shorted coil(s), or would an increase in torque always be expected to be accompanied by an increase in speed?

[aether22]

Hi guys;

MORE FUEL FOR THE FIRE !

While that was a foregone conclusion for most, it is nice to have evidence to beat skeptics over the head with.

JustMe: If the motor is running at minimal slip it seems near impossible for speed that is in effect already maximum to increase notably. (the motor can not exceed the sych speed unless something besides the motor is having a motor action)


The real question (despite the aether .vs magnetic field question being dearer to me) that needs to be answered most is how can a motors torque and speed increase while the input current drops.

There seems to be a limited number of possibilities.

One is that reduction of losses such as hysteresis (reduction of eddy currents would seem unlikely due to the fact that's how the motor operates) is meaning more of the input power is being turned into torque.
I could see it reducing wasted energy input but I am unclear if this would lead to torque increase or only a drop in input power.
But let's say it does.

Another would be an increase in permeability, that should work to increase torque.

Another would be that of pulling the stator field into the rotor more strongly and unidirectionally. (kind of like a one sided increase of permeability) Please note that while I believe this has been demonstrated in various FE and similar devices this is deeply impossible conventionally speaking, but it does have implications as it is the only way the device may be made OU.

Finally while increased induction into the rotor could increase torque, how this could occur without any of the above occurring though is unclear, maybe a drop in resistance of the rotor would allow greater current flow but resistance likely is not a limiting factor (likely the field strength and slip are to a much greater degree), this also work against increased functioning of a universal motor, it can be reasonably disregarded.

I can not think of any other ways this could work, though I am open to sensible suggestions I do not believe there are any other ways.

I can not imagine any way that a magnetic field conveyed to the motor could have any of these effects, although to be perfectly honest I can only imagine it of the aether because it is so unknown and fuzzy, I know for a fact that it exists and that it can do some of these things but the details are out of reach both due to it's nature and due to the fact that very little is solidly known as opposed to magnetism.

[polarbreeze]

To solve the riddle of which one the best test may be the one where the generator coils feed an external coil which feeds flux into a (the?) motor, you could even maybe place a magnet for it to react against if you like (it may be needful) and then try energizing it with a conventionally produced current instead to see if the effect only occurs or is larger with the generator current than an electrically identical current provided from more normal means.

The problem, Aether, is that you keep trying to change the configuration of the system. All that does is introduce new unknowns that add to the complexity of analysis. There is ALREADY a defined configuration of the system which displays this effect. Several people have duplicated it. It's known. It's stable. So don't keep trying to mess with it. The first priority should be to measure, study, analyse that system as it stands right now. IMHO.

PB