Thane Heins Perepiteia.

[aether22]

...please do explain what you mean by (external efficiency) if it's not covered by input power taking a dive as generator losses (outputs), inductive and magnetic increase (as shown in the first vid and hence almost surely present in the 2nd unless the motor dramatically reduces losses in the generator also).

In all seriousness you simply don't want to find that this thing works, you are grasping at straws.

What I mean by external efficiency is simply power out divided by power in. Measure those with Thane's device completely out of action (ie make sure it's exerting no drag on the system, either mechanical or electrical: preferably, remove it altogether). Let's say you measure 80W out for 100W in. That means your motor's efficiency is 80%.

Now, connect Thane's device to the system and connect/disconnect any coils you like in any combination. One of three things can happen:

1. That same 100W in gets you 85W out - then this is a valuable invention because you've increased the efficiency to 85%.

2. But if you only get 75W out, then the efficiency has dropped to 75% so it's a bust.

3. If you get 101W out, then you're dreaming.

I'm not sure why you think this is grasping at straws - which part of this suggestion do you find to be unreasonable or illogical?

Um, no, again.

You have correctly recognized that motors output less torque energy than electrical in.
But you have failed in the above example to load the motor so the test without the generator will show very little in and nothing out. (and the efficiency of an unloaded motor is different to the efficiency of a loaded one, also if you are not going to have any drag, then you have no output, can't measure something that does not exist)

You would need to load it mechanically so that it is at the same speed and draws the same amps (has the same drag) as with the generator active with the full path to motor.
But you should find the gen less efficient probably because Thanes generator like any generator has losses compared to the torque input, in fact it has been built to have extra losses to slow it down. (say electricity to torque is a 35% loss (his motor ain't efficient) so you have 65% efficiency, but useful electrical output might be only 50% efficient as eddy and hysteresis losses in the core are so great so 32.5% efficiency or 32.5w from 100w in, meaning even if the amps to the motor halved with the same output you'd still show it as less successful than straight torque)

A better comparison would be to have a known equal drag on the motor, say a shorted generator, hey let's use Thanes! And then try it again with an uninterrupted path to the motor, we know that in each case the generator hasn't changed (unless you propose that the motor sends something to the generator) and is providing the same drag, we can therefore see that the generator's emf/aether output is effecting the motor.

Since the drag in vid one must be present in vid 2 we can count it as output without needing to see if it's still there (if it isn't an even larger miracle has occurred), so now shorted coils, and heating from eddy currents and hysteresis are automatically counted as output.

In short Thane has already done (the sane and possible version of) your test and the result is positive.
Your test is quite simply impossible and nonsensical and even if 'fixed' Thanes current generator is too inefficient to have too much chance of passing it unless you get into calorimetry and measure the heat outputs.

Because you can't possibly explain the effect you are just suggesting very poor experiments to do away with it while ignoring the anomaly.

Edit:

[/color]

Polar, one more thing.
I already suggested the most practical corrected version of the experiment you suggest, which is to run Thanes generator via a belt leaving the shaft free to output flux (though it's possible it would work just find at either end of the axle currently) into another motor (which again should maybe be belt) powering a conventional generator with set load.

Since Thanes generator is not passing any recognized form of energy to the other conventional motor generator system you can simply see if it improves the efficiency to recognize if the effect is valid, though we already know it is.

[OilBarren]

Thane;

Thanks for responding.  I think I'll keep my nose out of all this discussion that is going on!   In the mean time I have taken your suggestions and have begun to make the changes.  I have included a variable speed control into the system and now when I turn it on to the minimum speed that it will run at with no output coils shorted it produces about 1 volt AC per coil and turns fairly slowly.  When I start shorting the coils it now starts to decelerate and will come to a stop with all coils connected and no added power to the motor.  I think you were asking if it would do that and now it does.  You are right in that my coil mounts are ferromagnetic (STEEL) and are probably bleeding the flux away.  I will mount the coils on a plastic ring in the next day or so and try again.
Thanks Vince

GOOD VINCE, YOU JUST ESTABLISHED LENZ'S LAW WORKS FOR YOUR SYSTEM.
CAN YOU PLEASE VERIFY THAT YOUR MOTOR IS NOT A SHADED POLE MOTOR?
GROUNDLOOP ALREADY PROVED THAT THIS TYPE OF MOTOR DOES NOT WORK - ACCELERATION WISE.

THRESHOLD SPEED

IN MY SYSTEM THERE IS A THRESHOLD SPEED - BELOW THIS SPEED THE SYSTEM ACTS AS A CONVENTIONAL GENERATOR AND SLOWS DOWN UNDER LOAD.

ABOVE THE THRESHOLD SPEED ACCELERATION RESULTS BECAUSE THE COIL MMF's ARE LARGE ENOUGH TO OVERCOME THE ROTOR + ROTOR DRIVESHAFT RELUCTANCE AND MAKE IT INTO THE MOTOR RATHER THAN REMAINING IN THE AIR GAP (AND CAUSING TROUBLE) BETWEEN THE COIL AND MAGNETS ON THE ROTOR AND CAUSING HYSTERESIS BRAKING EFFECT ASSOCIATED WITH LENZ'S LAW.

YOU MAY WANT TO INCREASE YOUR SPEED SLIGHTLY (ABOVE THE THRESHOLD) - ALSO MAKE A SMALL AIR COIL WHICH YOU CAN PLACE NEAR THE ROTOR TO MEASURE mVOLTS - WHICH REPRESENTS A MAKE SHIFT "TACHOMETER" IF YOU DON'T HAVE A LASER TACH LYING AROUND.

YOU MAY ALSO REQUIRE LARGER COILS THAT PRODUCE 50 - 75 - 100 VOLTS AS WELL.

Thane

[polarbreeze]

Um, no, again.

You have correctly recognized that motors output less torque energy than electrical in.

...

You would need to load it mechanically so that it is at the same speed and draws the same amps (has the same drag) as with the generator active with the full path to motor.

But you should find the gen less efficient probably because Thanes generator like any generator has losses compared to the torque input, in fact it has been built to have extra losses to slow it down.
...

In short Thane has already done (the sane and possible version of) your test and the result is positive.
...

Your test is quite simply impossible and nonsensical and even if 'fixed' Thanes current generator is too inefficient to have too much chance of passing it unless you get into calorimetry and measure the heat outputs.
...

Because you can't possibly explain the effect you are just suggesting very poor experiments to do away with it while ignoring the anomaly.

1. "Torque energy" is a meaningless term. Torque is torque; energy is energy.
2. "Load it mechanically" - yes, of course, that's what I'm suggesting! A motor is no good unless it can provide mechanical output so the only proper way to test it is with a mechanical load.
3. "built with extra losses to slow it down" - so what on earth benefit is that? Loss means wasted energy.
4. Thane's test is NOT anywhere close to what I'm proposing because he does not provide an external mechanical load on which to measure the power output.

[ramset]

PolarBreeze ,just for clarity what do you mean by dreaming ,Chet

[vince]

Hi Thane;

I'm not sure what a shaded pole motor is, But I have taken the name plate data to see if you recognize this type of motor.

Robbins and Myers     Ont. Canada
HP 1/25
V 110
CY 60 PH 1
RPM 1550
A 1.5         FR L842
TP T1-AVS1              SER  T J2820
Temp Rise 50 deg 

I have mounted the coils on a plastic ring. I gave it a quick test.  I don't know for sure but  I was measuring  .5 volts on one open coil with 5 shorted coils and it did not do anything.  I increased the speed so that it started making 1 volt on that coil and guess what! it took off and started to speed up and went to 3 volts, with no added power.  This is just preliminary.  May be I'm seeing things .  Going to have to test this further. Was this the threshold speed you talk about?

Vince