Thane Heins Perepiteia.

[Mr.Entropy]

I think I would. I have in mind, for example, the two curves in figure 12 (page 9) of this paper: AC Induction Motor Fundamentals

Remember that the shorted coil has to act like a brake.  Comparing the two load curves on page 9 in that paper, you can see that the unstable load requires less torque than the stable load at some speeds.  This is inconsistent with the application of a brake.

[OilBarren]

"Remember that the shorted coil has to act like a brake". 

I HAVE JUST COMPLETED A SERIES OF TESTS WITH THE 2 GOLD COILS AND THE GREEN COIL.

IT TURNS OUT THAT:

THE HIGH CURRENT GOLD COIL HC1 ALSO PRODUCES ACCELERATION WHEN ITS CORE IS COUPLED TO ANOTHER CORE COMPLETING THE MAGNETIC CIRCUIT. (as shown in the photos) THE HIGH VOLTAGE COIL HV2 PRODUCES THE MOST ACCELERATION - DUE TO THE FACT THAT ITS INDUCED VOLTAGE IS HIGHER - 100V vs 16V @ 686 RPM (just installed laser tach).

LUC AND I OBSERVED DECELERATION WITH THE HIGH CURRENT GOLD COIL HC1 WHEN IT WAS INSTALLED AS A "STAND ALONE" COIL..

Thane

[JustMe]

Thanks for the new info.  If you have time to expand on it, I'd like to learn more. How are the cores coupled? Are they still individually shorted, and if so how does the coupling affect that if at all? How does the coupled acceleration compare to the acceleration of it's lower current partner when that partner is accelerating the motor alone?  You indicate that the higher acceleration follows from the higher voltage - can you briefly explain why? In general, what is emerging as the biggest factor at play at this point? Is it still back-emf in your view?

With my own quite limited knowledge of this particular science (though I know tons more than when I first read the Star article!) it's getting harder to follow the magnetic and physical properties of this device.  I bet there's lots more novice lurkers who aren't chatty like me who would like to be able to keep up, so if you do have some time for Perepetia 101 on occasion I bet it would be more than me who would very much appreciate it.

[OilBarren]

Thanks for the new info.  If you have time to expand on it, I'd like to learn more. How are the cores coupled?

THEY ARE MAGNETICALLY COUPLED TOGETHER WITH SOME BACK IRON.

Are they still individually shorted, and if so how does the coupling affect that if at all?

YES INDIVIDUALLY SHORTED.
THE COUPLING CREATES A PERMANENT MAGNET FLUX PATH OFF OF A NORTH POLE MAGNET ON THE ROTOR THROUGH THE TWO CORES AND BACK TO A SOUTH POLE MAGNET ON THE ROTOR. THIS IS JUST SIMPLY A MUCH BETTER AND MORE EFFICIENT WAY TO PULL AS MUCH FLUX THROUGH THE COIL/CORE AS POSSIBLE - RATHER THAN HAVING ONE SINGLE COIL SITTING THERE.

How does the coupled acceleration compare to the acceleration of it's lower current partner when that partner is accelerating the motor alone? 

THEY SEEM TO PRETTY MUCH IGNORE ONE ANOTHER AND PROVIDE ABOUT THE SAME INDIVIDUAL RESULT IN TANDEM OR INDIVIDUALLY SHORTED. I THINK THE LOWER CURRENT COIL WHEN OPERATING IN "STAND ALONE MODE" WAS NOT PRODUCING ENOUGH MMF TO MAKE IT INTO THE MOTOR AND WAS OPERATING BELOW THE "THRESHOLD" SO ITS FIELD STAYED IN THE AIR GAP BETWEEN THE COIL AND ROTOR MAGNET CAUSING DECELERATION.

You indicate that the higher acceleration follows from the higher voltage - can you briefly explain why?

A HIGHER INDUCED EMF(VOLTAGE) IN THE COIL WILL PRODUCE A HIGHER MMF (CURRENT) WHEN SHORTED AND A STRONGER MAGNETIC FIELD IN THE AIR GAP. LUC AND I WILL WANT TO PAY ATTENTION TO THIS AND DESIGN OUR DUNE BUGGY GENERATOR TO PROVIDE HIGH VOLTAGE AT LOW RPM.

In general, what is emerging as the biggest factor at play at this point? Is it still back-emf in your view?

I ONLY KNOW ABOUT GENERATOR COILS PRODUCING EMF'S AND MMF'S (THERE MAY BE AETHER AS WELL OR RADIANT ENERGY OR ZPE OR SOMETHING ELSE OCCURING ) I JUST DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THAT STUFF SO I ASSUME IT'S BACK EMF BECAUSE I SEEM TO HAVE THE ABILITY TO MANIPULATE IT.

With my own quite limited knowledge of this particular science (though I know tons more than when I first read the Star article!) it's getting harder to follow the magnetic and physical properties of this device.  I bet there's lots more novice lurkers who aren't chatty like me who would like to be able to keep up, so if you do have some time for Perepetia 101 on occasion I bet it would be more than me who would very much appreciate it.

MAYBE I'LL BE MORE INCLINED TO TELL YOU MORE WHEN "YOUR SENS" GET INTO THE PLAYOFFS??? NOW I'M PISSED JUST THINKING ABOUT IT AND I AM AFRAID TORONTO IS GOING TO HAVE THE LAST LAUGH.

Thane

[OilBarren]

I AM POSTING THIS PM FROM PB BECAUSE MAYBE HE (OR SHE) FINALLY HAS SOMETHING REALLY WORTHWHILE TO CONTRIBUTE...

Re: EVERYTHING SEEMS TO BE ABOUT BALANCE AND FINDING THE RIGHT BALANCE AGAIN AND AGAIN AFTER WE CHANGE SOMETHING...

Thane, yes, that's exactly what it's about - from your reactions it seems you think I'm trying to trash what you're doing or trick you or something but, trust me, if you really want to progress this thing you need to dig into the theory in the directions I'm pointing. Each time you change something you have to adjust to find a new metastable point where the system can be pushed into instability by a small perturbation. That's what's behind your observation about "balance".

You're calling it balance; I'm calling it stability/instability. Same thing. Once you have a handle on the torque-speed characteristics of the load and of the motor, then you won't have to do so much guessing because you'll be able to apply what you've learned already to each new variant. Even if you're finding out new stuff, no reason not to benefit from the theory that's already out there. I think that's throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

PB

FUNNY THING AS MUCH AS I ENJOY TRASH TALKING PB - THERE MAY BE SOME MERIT TO THIS - AFTER ALL LUC WAS JUST TALKING ABOUT BUILDING A PONY BRAKE THIS AFTERNOON.

BACK TO THE THEORY - AND TO BE BLUNT - RIGHT NOW WE ARE SIMPLY LOOKING FOR A QUICK LAY. PROOF OF CONCEPT AND EXCITING VISUAL DEMO'S LIKE THE DUNE BUGGY AND THE TRANSFORMER.

THEORY AND OPTIMIZATION CAN ALL HAPPEN LATER ON WHEN OUR TROOPS ARE SAFE AT HOME AND OIL WARS ARE NO LONGER TOLERATED OR REQUIRED.

Thane