Magnetic Permeability ... I can't find anyone talking about this !!!!!

[nul-points]

hi Observer

interesting thread you've got going here!

i'm glad to see that you've continued in the face of initial lack of positive response

it seems to have eased into an open-minded consideration of various properties of EM with a lot of informed input in good nature and many interesting challenges posed to  conventional 'received wisdom'

i'm interested in the recent comparison of the properties of inductance and capacitance - i'm trying to picture the possibly-anomalous behavior of capacitance in my own  switched-charge experiment and i believe i'm seeing a parallel kind of 'inertia' in caps

inductors show a current-like inertia: slow to build up their field & then attempt to maintain it after applied current ceases

as a by-product of results (now measuring as OU!) with switched-charging of large-valued caps, i'm also seeing significant self-recharge after discharge of the input & output caps - there is a very inertia-like feel to it

i believe caps are 'slow' to establish their particular field (in fact, i believe it's been proved that it occurs in finite steps of charge 'quanta') and they appear to try and maintain their voltage

[polite note to other interested readers: please do not bother to mention again that this is a well-known effect seen in Electrolytic & other types of polarised caps - i fully agree, but i have only ever heard that fact - a well-known observation is not an explanation!]

i believe these inertia-like properties we're seeing in EM (and possibly also mechanical) systems are all linked to a fundamental background-property of space - a vacuum medium of quantum energy

not my theory, of course, but it appears to be gaining increasing credence with some scientists and engineers who are comfortable with the maths and open-minded enough to investigate anomalies

i'm seeing both charge and energy imbalance anomalies in my experiment - and that's before observing this so-called 'well-known' cap-recharge effect which is putting approx 230mWsec of additional energy back into the circuit immediately after tests consuming only about 2200mWsec of input energy with already OU results - ie. i'm seeing useful energy quotients > 1.2 in tests and then an additional 10% energy input after the test when the caps recharge!

i should mention that there is (ferrite-cored) inductance in my test circuit, too, so i can't rule out some of the issues you're raising, Observer, as possible contributory factors

my thread, if you happen to be at all interested in what could be a parallel sort of inquiry, is titled 'OU/COP >1 switched cap PS circuit...' in the Tesla technologies forum

i look forward to following your progress on this thread, and hope you get an opportunity to put some of the ideas and claims to the test

all the best
sandy

Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site:  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc

[The Observer]

Sandy,

Many thanks for your input.

  a well-known observation is not an explanation!

                        So, so, so so true.

Of course observation without judgment leads to explanations, but I agree 100%.
  Let me elaborate where it is pertinent here.
 
     If you believe Newtonian Physics applies everywhere, (conservation of energy), then you will not see anything else.
          Even when other phenomena have been right in front of your nose the whole time !

Only when one knows HOW & WHY something works... do they become a true master of subject.


I was wondering what you are experimenting with.
Is it an RLC resonant circuit?

If so, I ponder the energy to charge an inductor with a suitable core and the energy available during 'discharge.'

   This is why.
  The atom dipoles of a ferromagnetic material should not line up.
They should act like mini compasses too close together.
   But there is an 'energy' that makes them wanna line up with the neighbor when no external magnetic field is present.
  Only when the microscopic effect of the organization of magnetic fields gets big enough, do we see the 'compasses to close together effect.'
    I really think this is the reason why domains look and behave the way they do.

   Refer here for some pics...    http://www.physics.brown.edu/physics/demopages/Demo/em/demo/5g2020.htm

I really haven't found 1 source talking about the effect of the dipoles collapsing to their original domain orientations after the pulse.

The inductance is directly relational to the MAGNETIC PERMEABILITY (so they say).
   I will say it again, sorry about the redundancy.
      This means that whatever the inductance is without a core... that same coil has 1000's !!! of times more inductance with a core.
        Perhaps 1,000,000 !
                                                                    This is what this thread is all about.
                                       When something is that different from the norm, something extraordinary is going on.

Now, I almost believe the part about the apparent ENERGY STORED being 1000's of times greater (this is fantastic though)

But 1000's of times more energy to counter a 1000's times more back emf to charge the thing?
    Why in God's Name would anyone do this.  It's like robbing Peter to pay Paul.
     
  Perhaps, just perhaps it doesn't take 1000's of times the energy to charge the same coil with a core.
    Maybe the Energy stored is that... but 1000's of times more energy to charge... WHY DO THIS?
       Makes no sense.

I think the answer to this lies in understanding Coercive Force and the Quantum Effect of dipoles in close proximity lining up when they shouldn't.
   Coercive Force, as I interpret it, relates to how easily the dipoles turn.
    How sticky they are when it comes to turning, is another way of saying it.

Some can turn easily... and do.
 
When I put a piece of iron next to one of my neo magnets, there is only instant attraction.
   I can't see how the magnet got drained from the dipoles of the iron lining up, which is all they want to do anyways.
    If a few dipoles line up, then the neighboring dipoles will start to feel the quantum effect mentioned earlier.
      So the available energy to line up becomes  External Field energy +   Quantum Effect Energy.

        In summary, does charging a coil (getting current to flow at max) take 1000's of times longer with a core as apposed to not?
        Or does it take a voltage 1000's of times greater to  charge the coil in the same time it would without the core?


Last night, I took my Voltmeter and tested the resistance of a coil with a ferro core. 1/2 of a transformer.

In theory, I had thought that the resistance would be high when I first connected the leads, then would go down as more current passed through.
  It was opposite to this... 200 - 300 ohms initially.. then to 790 ohms in less than a second.

  Dad ( happy fathers day !) said, just a few minutes ago,  that is because the digital ohm-meter uses constant current, not constant voltage to test resistance.

I guess I  would need an oscilloscope to see if this is true, or perhaps just another Voltmeter.

Well, these are my thoughts.

My quote for the day...
   
                                 'a well-known observation is not an explanation'    (thanks sandy)
   
  The Observer

[nul-points]

hi Observer

i agree, observation is vital to the real scientific process - and i think we're both also saying: but it's not a substitute for explanation

i emphasise 'real' because i feel that to claim something is impossible, based on rules that are ultimately founded on observation (ok, possibly via much intervening math modelling), is not REAL science

you can state with certainty that something exists (based on evidence, of course) - but if you claim that something doesn't exist you need to add the proviso: 'as far as we know'

three-legged ducks don't exist until you see one!

...(yes i've seen one)

...(no, you can't have any of what i was drinking at the time!)

i would feel happier to settle for statements such as 'perpetual motion' machines are probably impossible- this at least would be a more honest approach than the sorry state of affairs we experience at the moment!

i do believe that the prevailing attitude of the 'scientific establishment' (such as the people who belittled & cold-shouldered folks like Laithwaite and Catt) is that they are arrogant (hopefully, not stupid) enough to believe they can omit the 'as far as we know' clause

the general public will usually take their lead from the 'scientific establishment'

i think it's ironic that, hundreds of years ago, dogmatists in the church told Galileo he was wrong - now we have the situation where dogmatists in science are telling independent 'researchers' they are wrong

that's an apt paradox: 'history teaches us that history teaches us nothing!'


my experiment does contain R,L & C elements - but so far, i haven't investigated any possible resonance contribution to the effects i'm seeing (i don't discount them)

it is possible that there is some interaction in the energy transfer between L & C (& therefore, tuning for resonance may improve the results)

some nagging doubt still worries me that we have only discovered the tip of the iceberg when we start to talk about the electromagnetic behaviour & characteristics of L & C components - that we're still dealing with the effects, not the fundamental cause

Oliver Crane had some interesting things to say about magnetics - if you haven't already discovered him & you have time sometime, try Googling him & 'Space Quanta' - he's apparently made some useful predictions about possible EM behaviour based on his 'theories'

have a trawl through Aspden's papers & reports too, if you haven't already - he has a lot of first-hand experience of things electromag - discovered the 'Aspden effect' (atheric inertia?) - approaches anomalies honestly & with open-mind

i like the magnetic domain pics you reference - reminds me of a vid (from Stanford? or MIT?) showing magnetic 'paste' or dye (i think?!?) responding to an extreme magnetic field, can't remember if there was a frequency element to the experiment - as power was increased, the magnetic material started to form an enfolded spiral-based configuration related to the patterns shown in your ref.

Aspden talks about the rotational & spin-effects that fields impose on the crystal-lattice structure of the aether/space-medium and, whilst i was looking at the shape evolving in the vid, i could imagine that i was actually looking at an emergent feature of the fabric of the universe - very sobering  (& it takes a lot to sober me up!)

i don't have much experience of working with inductance - but what i have noticed in my experiment is that i can make significant improvement to the charge transfer efficiency by piling additional ferrite material around my inductor

i know that the 'received' explanantion for this is that the Q-factor of the inductor is being increased - BUT - i feel we're back in the 'Twilight Zone' of observations being offered in place of explanations again!


i agree with your Dad about using a DMM to measure inductors, and there's so much more to see in the time domain - so, yes, use a scope!  vital when dealing with things which have time-dimension characteristics

all the best - good hunting!
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc

[LDVAN]

Observer -- I think you are getting way out ahead of yourself in your efforts to try to understand magnetic field / inductance thing. The first thing I'll say is that I'm a piss poor teacher, but when I get some free time (day or two, sorry) I'll attempt to clear some of the muddied water for you. Although my father (passed on now) was a college professor in the field of electricity, my knowledge was acquired by a life time of playing with 'trons', bending them, folding them, making them jump through hoops or generally getting the shit shocked out of myself while learning about what can be done with them. Give me a couple of days to catch up on my other work and I'll give this a shot.

Best Regards

LDVAN

[The Observer]

LD,

Thanks for your reply.

I look forward to seeing your take on some of these important concepts.

Interesting, that your dad, a prof of electricity... my dad a physics prof who specialized in electronics.

Gotta go to work, but I'll be back.
   
                                                The Observer