URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE

[jibbguy]

Well Mr. Krupa does have independent data to back him (as well as a lifetime of experience in the automotive industry). If you were using regular "weak" spark, you may be right about the 30:1 but when plasma is used to ignite the gasoline it is a new ball game; and you can throw all those old theories and stats about fuel-air ratio out the window. Remember that he said that the exhaust temp went down 100 degrees.

The "1 Joule" of energy needed figure for plasma spark was interesting, we hadn't heard that one in earlier interviews i think.

[allcanadian]

@bumfuzzled

I will have to disagree with Mr Krupa on the air fuel ratio, if you run an engine at a 30:1 AFR with just gasoline that motor will be toast in no time. It's just fact, it will melt the pistons and eventually seize.

I would agree, however your statement in itself gives us a clue as to the direction we should be heading. A lean AFR will "melt the pistons", as the expansion ratio(pressure) thus power developed is based on a rise in temperature in the cylinder how is it that a lean mixture can produce more heat?. In another thread I recalled how 20 years ago I was running a 1600cc VW engine on 80% methanol and had 8" blue flames coming out my 10" zoomy pipes(short exhaust pipes on each cylinder). I was running super lean and as you say super HOT, the issue was easily solved with proportional water injection and I retained all if not more power in the process of running a very lean methanol AFR. In truth most ICE's add extra fuel to "cool" the cylinder which makes no sense what so ever from the stand point of efficiency when you could easily add water to accomplish the same cooling.
What is not common knowledge is that the lean AFR follows a bell curve, that is as the AFR is leaned out the cylinder temperatures gets hotter and hotter then------starts to cool down as there is not enough fuel to produce the excess temperatures. This presents new problems as we are now in an area of combustion called "detonation" combustion. 10 years ago I built a few valveless pulsejet and pulse-detonation engines to explore this area further and I will tell you the transition from a conventional burn to detonation is beyond what we consider extreme. A good quality detonation in a conventional ICE would probably throw your cylinder heads through your roof in record time. In my pulse detonation engine I used schedule 160 pressure pipe that should tell you something of the dangers involved, however if you could produced produce peak temperatures at the top of the bell curve and introduce a "moderator" such as water vapor to control the burn I think this could work. Stan Meyers used exhaust gas recirculation as a moderator(atmospheric nitrogen) to control the combustion speed in his HHO injectors as can be seen in his patents.
I know this may seem a little off topic but if we are dealing with efficient "combustion" it helps to know the facts you are not going to read in the textbooks.

[bumfuzzled]

You can't really compare alcohol fuels to regular gasoline, they are nowhere near the same. Methanol burns very cool and very slow compared to gasoline. That's why you were seeing flames shoot out the exhaust, same reason you see them shooting out of the top fuel dragsters, that fuel burns slow too, it's still burning as it comes out the exhaust. Ever seen them spray the throttle blades just before they launch off the line? That's to keep them from freezing, that's how cold it gets. The superchargers will actually ice up on the outside too. Ethanol burns slower and cooler too. I can run ethanol in the hot rod and actually see condensation form on the supercharger because it's cooling so much and could probably lean it out a lil and be ok but that's not a chance I'm willing to take. I've got a few drag racing buddies that have to put a high temp thermostat in the motor when they run alcohol because at the end of the track the engines have cooled so much that they won't hardly run.

I can't comment on if introducing a plasma ignition system will allow you to lean it out to a 30:1 AFR because I've never done that but I'm highly skeptical of it. Ever heard of a lean misfire?? At 30:1 I don't think you'd have enough fuel to even get the engine to idle much less run down the road.

You are exactly right, the extra fuel is to help keep the combustion chamber cool, same reason for a richer mixture at wide open throttle. That's why I say these guys running HHO generators can lean the motor out so much and still be ok because when it turns back to water it's the same as water injection. Trust me I've seen it happen time and time again, you run an engine lean without any "outside" help and it will burn itself up.

As far as detonation in an ICE, might as well just throw a grenade in one cylinder, it would be about the same end. The pressure spike from detonation is tremendous and will pound rod bearings and piston tops to death. Yes water injection will help stave this off by keeping things cool (as will alcohol fuels), I have that on the hot rod,  it allows more ignition timing also but you better hope yer pump doesn't go out or yer injector doesn't get clogged up.

I'm wondering if a plasma ignition would help with detonation. Wonder if it creates a faster burn therefore not giving the fuel enough time to detonate. Same as the "fast burn" heads you can buy. Same reason in a hot rod motor you want a very small squish area, to keep gases from "hiding out" and causing detonation.

Who wants to be the first to put plasma on their car and lean it out that far to see if it's possible? I might have to pull the AFR gauge off the hot rod and hook it up to a small engine and just see what happens the leaner it gets.


Also forgot to mention that when detonation occurs you will actually see exhaust temps drop but engine temp will go up. Don't know exactly why because it's been awhile since I read up on that.

[allcanadian]

@bumfuzzled
It's good to see a person who knows his stuff  I got similar results leaning out gasoline as well as methanol, on gas my pipes where smokin hot.

I can't comment on if introducing a plasma ignition system will allow you to lean it out to a 30:1 AFR because I've never done that but I'm highly skeptical of it. Ever heard of a lean misfire?? At 30:1 I don't think you'd have enough fuel to even get the engine to idle much less run down the road.

Actually a stronger ignition is a requirement for burning natural gas in larger engines like the waukasha stationary engines used in gas compressors having massive combustion chambers. This high voltage ignition is to prevent the "lean misfire" you have mentioned, most gas turbines I have seen also use high intensity plasma igniters for starting, when I first saw the large discharge from my replication of Gotoluc's circuit a lean burn engine is the first thing that crossed my mind. I think this is the perfect application for it while working towards a "water" engine.

I'm wondering if a plasma ignition would help with detonation. Wonder if it creates a faster burn therefore not giving the fuel enough time to detonate. Same as the "fast burn" heads you can buy. Same reason in a hot rod motor you want a very small squish area, to keep gases from "hiding out" and causing detonation.

From my pulse-detonation engine I learned that true detonation is not a "burn" it is a hopefully a controlled "explosion" as all the fuel combusts instantly at the same time, there is no flame front or fast burn, a pressure wave ignites all fuel explosively instantly----think of a 6sq/in chamber producing a noise like a freaking howitser and knocking all kinds of heavy shit off your garage walls, I got it working perfect every time then put it on a shelf to collect dust for my own safety. A person named Somender Sing if I have his name right has done remarkable work with squish bands and minimizing detonation, he is light years ahead of the auto engineers.

Also forgot to mention that when detonation occurs you will actually see exhaust temps drop but engine temp will go up. Don't know exactly why because it's been awhile since I read up on that.

It would make sense that detonation would produce spot heating in the combustion chamber while producing a more complete burn leading to more pressure being present in the cylinder when the exhaust valves open, This may produce a greater expansion ratio across the exhaust valves when first opening thus a cooling effect----my best guess

[gotoluc]

@Shiver, bumfuzzled, allcanadian, jibbguy & plasmastudent77,

thanks for the information and your ideas posted. I do agree!... if this circuit could be used to help a lean the mixture of a ICE without a meltdown I think that would be a good start also, so lets work on that and share the findings.

Ever since this circuit was discovered I always had GEET at the back of my mind. With the GEET system you can bring the water ratio up to around 70% but anything higher than that would not work. However as far as I know I don't think they ever worked on the spark to see if that would help to increase the water ratio.

What do you all think of that? please let me know your thoughts.

Luc