Electromagnet power transfer question.

[spinner]

Good thread and discussions!

Please, consider this:

The only energy transfer/exchange mechanism in magnetics  is a rate of change of mag. flux (dFIux/dt) which enables the induction (and all the consecutive effects...).

"Static" magnetic fields (like PM) cannot "transfer/exchange energy", unless there's another (external) energy source introduced, e.g. a mechanical energy (motion!), which is (so far) still a CoE dependable process...

So if you include permanent magnets in your's EM circuit (like MEG transformers, etc), the end result is just a magnetically "biased" inductive coupling... Which still means you cannot get out more than you put in originally despite the PM's "FE" involvement....

Anyway, such experiments are rather easily reproducible (coil(s), different cores and types of PMs & bacic measuring equipment (scope!))... Do not forget about correct measurement methods...
According to physics definitions, an alleged "OU" self-induced (closed system) EM circuit (like transformer) should work if output is feed back to input with a possibility to "drain" out the surplus of energy....
That would be nice, eh?

[nwman]

Spinner, thanks for your input. What does '"FE" involvement' mean?

What are your thoughts on the video posted at the beginning of this thread? Does the increase of around 2 times the attraction force not lend itself to conclude that with the same power input [as an EM that should be 95%+ efficient] you get 2 and possibly 4 times the magnetic attraction [field density]?

The test I want to run at some point would go something like this.

I would start off with a primary cap. that is empty. I would charge it to a level of 1 unit [generically speaking]. Then discharge that cap into the coil on the c-core EM [primary]. This should produce one pulse which would cause the PM/EMs field to jump through the alternate path which is wrapped with a induction coil [secondary]. The field density at the secondary coil should be equal to 2-4 times the density of the primary coil? Thus you should be able to pull off 2-4 times the voltage as the initial pulse? Then some how capture that charge into a few caps. Then with 2-4 units of energy stored you should be able to transfer 1 unit of energy back to the primary cap and recharge it thus setting it up for another discharge while having additional power in the secondary caps left over?

Sorry for the bad terminology, its late. I know its a gross generalisation.

Again from the video it seems you should be able to achieve one full pulse with an increase of flux density greater then what should be expected?

good night,

Tim

[spinner]

Spinner, thanks for your input. What does '"FE" involvement' mean?

Thanks! ... Ah, never mind... I was just trying to point out one of the more "popular misconceptions" about magnetics (PM), namely, that PM's are a source of 'Free Energy'.... So far(!), they're still just a source of a magnetic Force.... Like gravity,... A Potential (!!!) Energy.
A permanent magnet, if observed as a "thermodynamic system" from the "outside", has a ZERO sum of ALL the (vector) potentials. No energy without changing other parameters like a movement (NEWTONIAN! mechanics))....

What are your thoughts on the video posted at the beginning of this thread? Does the increase of around 2 times the attraction force not lend itself to conclude that with the same power input [as an EM that should be 95%+ efficient] you get 2 and possibly 4 times the magnetic attraction [field density]?

An EM can be >95% efficient. But that's (so far) all about it... You should not mix "OU" with a "field concentrating" mechanisms like a geometry & substance dependable ones (core types, etc).
If you look, for instance, at the parabolic antennas, they're not the "OU".. They can practicly concentrate an  EM field/energy, still, no OU....
In the same way you can look at the magnetic flux concentracing methods (cores with a higher ur than that of the the empty space, the geometry implementations (toroids), etc,,etc...)

The test I want to run at some point would go something like this.
I would start off with a primary cap. that is empty. I would charge it to a level of 1 unit [generically speaking]. Then discharge that cap into the coil on the c-core EM [primary].

The cost of charging a cap is a well known, a "CoE" process. You can charge it (store the energy) to the nominal values, but there are always some losses involved....
By definition, you loose some (parts of ) percent(s) to charge a cap to a nominal value. (Ohmic & many other (dynamic) losses like EM/radiation, electro-chemistry,..)...
Discaharging a Cap to the coils bring another (CoE obedient) process... After all, the real LC circuits (in any situation) have never been recognised as a source of possible OU.... Which implies that active el. components (diodes, transistors,..) are even worst when it comes to this....

This should produce one pulse which would cause the PM/EMs field to jump through the alternate path which is wrapped with a induction coil [secondary]. The field density at the secondary coil should be equal to 2-4 times the density of the primary coil? Thus you should be able to pull off 2-4 times the voltage as the initial pulse? Then some how capture that charge into a few caps. Then with 2-4 units of energy stored you should be able to transfer 1 unit of energy back to the primary cap and recharge it thus setting it up for another discharge while having additional power in the secondary caps left over?
Sorry for the bad terminology, its late. I know its a gross generalisation.
Again from the video it seems you should be able to achieve one full pulse with an increase of flux density greater then what should be expected? ... good night,
Tim

The "jumping of an EM field"... is related to a Natural Law which is tending to acchieve the "path of a least resistance"  (this is a centuries old state of the fact when observing the Nature and IMHO, one of the most important ones), a Natural law to achieve minimal potential (energy) state... ... The releasing of a lightning, the wind/pressure../humidity../temperature... differences... They all tends to the state of a minimal potential energy possible .... Entropy is another mechanism to describe this.  Nature allways finds a way to "release" or relaxes itself in some way..

The balance (or even increase) of an energy in such mechanisms is... well... not easily defendable (it goes against classical understanding of Nature/physics...

At the end, if someone would introduce a concept which would successfully broke a current understanding of a CoE principle, then....

How about producing a working model? I mean, theories are good for our tinkering/mental training, yet....

What is wrong with a Bearden claims? His theory is indeed intriguing, but (you may have noticed), there's actually not a single MEG which would work as claimed...
Anyone who can indisputably show a "FE" working device (IN PRACTICE), would win...

Cheers!

[nwman]

If anyone is still reading this thread I had another question. How does the size of a transformer core effect the energy transfer? In the graphic below you see a funny looking transformer. Two coils A and B. Both A and B have the same number of turns of wire however the core within B is larger. How would this affect the transfer if A is the primary and B is the secondary coil? Would this make any difference?

Another random question: Do the cores of transformers operate at, below, or near the saturation point of their core material?

Thanks

Tim

[nwman]

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5425.msg123290#msg123290

Sorry it’s taken me so long to post these findings. In regard to Steven’s thoughts quoted above I have tested this concept and found that this configuration does indeed work. I don’t know if you can pull power off of it, but it does act the way I thought. Below is a graphic of the configuration.  Also I have attached a video showing this action.

Sorry Steven, I was mistaken about being wrong in my e-mail. At first I tried to connect the valve to another core that had the notch cut out where the coil goes. It didn’t attract as strong as a solid core. But then I realize that I should have had the magnets and connecting bar on it to simulate the actual configuration. This provided enough material for the flux to travel through. Not only does it attract as hard but it seems to even attract harder because the magnets on the other core are opposite polarity so when the valve turns on all the magnets attract.

Plus in the below configuration as one valve turns on it should send an opposite polarity through the other core which would help keep the cores from becoming polarized [not having enough time to lose there polarity].

If you put secondary coils at points C and D [connected] then I would think you should be able to pullout an AC current. That’s the idea anyways.

Video: http://www.abcwag.com/PC020029.MOV [9.4MB] It takes a while to down load and will play in your browser.