Joule Thief

[TheNOP]

this i dont understand, there is the "old rule" electronics and the "new rule" electronics, the old rule is that electricity flows from + to -, the new rule is just the opposite. the reason for this is that atoms have electrons that travel down a wire and a electron has a - charge. well thats fine but how does a cap with a + charge do any work then? does it obsorb a - charge from the vacume? and why does it draw power from a battery to put that + charge on the cap when the + charge of a cap symbolizes the absence of charge?  the more i hear EE's talk about electronics the more i think the industry has no F*'n clue!  if someone has a explenation for this and wants to try to educate me please feel free.

sometime things have to be putted in the right context to understand the why of something.
this is what i remember of it.

the old "rules" was using electrons and holes to simplify how things where working at the electrons level.
hole saying: "electrons goes in reverse direction of the holes."
(the holes direction is equivalent to what you call "new rules".)
it is not really a new thing, see below.

the thing is that those holes does not exist.
we were warned that it was not the real thing.
it was a simpification of the how the electrons could posibly travel in a wire/semi-conductors/etc...

it was though that this simplification was "ok" for simple techniciens as they do not need to know exactly how it happen.
the thing they need to know is the direction.
the holes direction was telling it.

note that at the same time, physic classes and advance electronic classes were teaching the "complet thing.
also note the the electrons movements are a side effect of a flowing current not the reverse.




about capacitors.
the charges are relative to the power supply feeding it.
the supply create the charges imballance.
to my knowledge, a charges imbalance is not an electrons imballance.

while the created imballance is at it's max between the supply poles, there might/will also exist an imballance vs the capacitor environment to a more or lesser degree.
when you are creating a positive charges imballance in a cap, it does not mean the negative plate also get negative charges on the other plate.
it does not mean you don't get some either.
all is relative to the supply, how/where the cap is connected in your circuit and your circuit environment in general(wires can also acte as capacitor plates and the air as the dielectric.).

an other way to see xee2 example is this:
let say a cap is 2 buckets and when charges are ballanced those 2 buckets are half filled.
-if you pump(that is your power supply) the water from one bucket to the other you are creating a weith imballance.

-if you pump the water from one bucket to a third bucket, or empty it to the ground, you are also creating a weith imballance.

-you can also use not pump and just let one of the bucket drain
-also while you pump water from somewhere else in the other.

-etc...

as you can see, the imballance does not mean something appear from nowhere.

[nievesoliveras]

@jesus

Where you see failure i see progress , blowing a inductor from a dead battery , humm

Also spiritually , you didn't get the lion out this time , you are not in it for your pride but all humanity , lets the divine inspiration speak , lets it speak louder ...

Don't worry even if you cry wolf to many times , people will still watch but will be more prudent in there reply .

Maybe the battery is wrong for this look into nickel iron battery.

mark

Thank you @mk1 !

What I think happen is that the voltage is amplified and fedded back and reamplified till the coil cannot resist anymore and grayed after getting too hot.

I will mark one of the wires of the bar ferrite coil and I will unwind it in order to find which wire is at fault (The base or the collector wire).

After I find the wire, I will wind it triple turns.  If it burns worst, then I learn that it was less turns instead of more turns.

Last time what was blown were the 1n4148 diodes. I changed them for 1n4001 and this time it blew the coil.

If the lord so desires I will find the balance of this circuit. Or maybe one of the other members found it already buy has kept it quiet.

@stprue
Wow you are a great toroid winder. Maybe the correct one when you get it will not work as good as the one you first did. So dont wory too much if it is not perfect.

Best wishes!

Jesus

[xee2]

@ jeanna

Last, I remade the 20 turns into a mk1 style 2^o.

At first the volts were down about the same amount as the hazens style, but there were more of them. Still very hard to see or stop the scope and look while on hold, though.

at 200r:
197v, 205v, 198v, 218v, 17v, 54v,

then I began to tune the resistor. I turned it down. I didn't check this one but it suddenly got very loud and changed pitch.
volts I saw were,
126v, 494v, 353v, 492v, 19v, 122v,

I wondered how much more so...

at 33.8r I got the top reading of 648v !!
Needless to say, I am being very careful with my scope.

Yes, please be careful with scope. As I recall the max input voltage is 300 volts without the probe set to divide by ten.

So, is this correct? >>> You are using a 3.38" toroid with 2 base coil turns, 10 collector coil turns, and a 20 turn MK1 pickup coil with a 33.8 ohm base resistor and you are getting spikes with 648 volt peaks and when the output of the pickup coil is connected to a fluorescent tube the tube lights with no problems.

If so, that is great.  CONGRATULATIONS 

[jeanna]

So, is this correct? >>> You are using a 3.38" toroid with 2 base coil turns, 10 collector coil turns, and a 20 turn MK1 pickup coil with a 33.8 ohm base resistor and you are getting spikes with 648 volt peaks and when the output of the pickup coil is connected to a fluorescent tube the tube lights with no problems.

If so, that is great.  CONGRATULATIONS 

Everything but the tube.
I can light a neon.
I think this is the reason I talk about the quality of the wave???

And it is also why I would like it if you would also make this 20 turn MK1 style pickup.
Before the resistor adjustment the voltage was not anything like that and it went up quickly as I reduced the resistor vaue, then suddenly it started to scream and jumped up in 2 steps to 648.
It is still there. But the spikes are very infrequent as things go.

like this
_____________|__________________________|_________
I am trying to give a proportional example.
The frequency is 555hertz.
Most spikes are about the same height. I am sure you will get this 648v in a diode cap arrangement.

I probably need a cap arrangement to light a fluoro tube as these seem always needed, and I didn't do that.

I am considering changing the primary of the other one (biggo in the breadbasket) that does light a fluorotube. I just must be sure I have answered all my questions about it before I do a thing like take it apart. I would change it to 2T,10T like this one.

Tell me, would you expect a 20 turn pickup to light a fluoro?

jeanna

[xee2]

@ jeanna

Thanks. Here is a simple test we can do.

With the neon circuit (last circuit I posted) if I use a 500 ohm base resistor the neon will light. But if I use a 1K base resistor the neon will not light. That is with my 20 turn sloppy solenoid pickup coil. Can you check to see if a 20 turn MK1 pickup coil will light the neon with a 1K base resistor in the same circuit? I think this is what you have except for the 1K resistor.