Joule Thief

[Koen1]

Okay IST, you say you don't have to prove a thing but I do...
Well, I'm trying to, but I'm getting zip.

It might help if you could describe exactly what I should do to make this work then...

You say "tune it". Ok.
How? Tell me, instead of telling me I need to relieve the symptoms but not telling me how?
Obviously if I knew how to fix it I would have tried to do so already.
Like I said before, this may all be clear to you but I don't have magic xray vision
so I can't see what is or is not tuned, I only see LEDs lighting up and my meter
showing a measurement.
So yeah, I understand that tuning is probably required to get this to work, but I
have no clue how to go about it. Sure, the type of core material must play a role there,
and so does the type and diameter of wire, and the voltage and amperage of the input
current, and the duration of the pulse, and then there is resonance tuning, and inductive
tuning, and circuit tuning, all of those things can be tuned. But how do I go about that?
Some of the things I can work out a little, but a little is not enough to tune anything properly.

Also, yes I understand that you are convinced that everything you're getting from
your secondaries is "cold current" or "radiant energy".
But can you tell me HOW you can be so sure? It's not the fact that you are sure
that it's RE that I question, my question there is HOW do you know for sure?

But that's all secondary to the main matter here.
So I'll just say it again for clarities sake:
I want to build a working JT-based setup that produces excess output like yours.
I want to try and use that to charge batteries.
I have been trying to get the same results using a JT with additional secondaries,
and so far I have not been able to get anything that looks like your output.
PLEASE give me some clear advice, possibly shcematic even, on how to
build and tune it so that I can get these results?

Clearly just telling me that the trick is in the kick and the tuning is not
enough, I don't know how that helps me to fix my circuit. I need some
more detailed descriptions to imitate what you are doing there.

Sorry for the questions, I know you're more of the building type than
the explaining type, but I'm starting to get really frustrated here...
... you keep posting exciting stuff and I can't seem to even get anything
of the sort going over here...

kind regards,
Koen

[jeanna]

Hi Koen1,

I will study the rest of your post, but when I got to the place where you said you had connected the secondary to the base resistor I could no longer concentrate.

The secondary is NOT connected to anything.

Even with the MK1, you just do the same jtc.

those 2 secondary wires are to be connected only to the led array.

I went through my january posts for a friend's convenience yesterday. I will post these as annotated links now. They are just so you can see the reference to the lights I got to shining from secondary wires which are otherwise unconnected to the circuit. Sometimes the pics help.

here is the list The pages are specific posts :

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.590

tube lit with camera ckt NO secondary here - obviously
----------
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.955

1st report of one turn secondary just words no pic
-------
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.959

3 turns on 2dary 6 leds
------
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.965

10 turns on secondary

15 leds
---------
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.1233

30 leds lit

jeanna

EDIT
Oh how annoying. It used to be that my browser took me to the exact place on the page if I had it in the URL. No longer. Anyway, If you look at the last number of the URL, you will know the number of the post, so scroll down to get there. eesh, sorry.

[innovation_station]

ok

im sorry to make anyone angry no a goal of mine ...

i recomend a black toroide cuz i have always had secucess with them ... all diffrent shaps n sizes ... jt or mk1 style ... secondary  it does not matter with the black ones i have seen any ways.... 

yellow suck!! lol but there diffrent yellows aswell .. 

stick to black it has worked for me ...

now wind a mk2 on it ....   i used 14 turn secondaries....  7 each way x4 wires....   they are inter twined .... and close to the core ....

now you must tune it for your core .... ALL CORES ARE DIFFRENT ...

so you want to be able to get out of your coil what you desire ... when i did mine i went for voltage CUZ I WANTED TO CHARGE CAPS ....

i dont care bout the amprage .... it DOES NOT MATTER... SURE MORE THE BETTER BUT ... I DONT HAVE TO HAVE AMPRAGE ... WELL MUCH ANY WAYS    FOR THIS STYLE UNIT ...


to tune it you will wind your secondaries...   I DID THIS WITH 1 SET TO FIND THE BEST WINDING CONFIG FOR MY CORE...

if you notice on my mk2 nano you see how i tuned it ...   2 output coils ...  plus i work with how much space i have on the ring ...

my nano had  3 turns secondaries each putting out 15vdc  plus the jt flyback ...  so 3 outputs...  1 input ..  my jt coils also had 3 turns...

this is what i found simple  for out put for the hula hoops...  to power 20 leds.. or more if i wanted ...  i would simply wind another bifillar pickup coil ...  then im up to  5 outputs   @15vdc...

and if i used FINER WIRE ... WELL    you get the idea.... 

so  on my mk2 6pac coils... i used 7x7 and 5 turn jt as  i ballanced it to gain more cuz im CHARGEING CAPS...  THOSE PUT OUT 110VDC - 90VDC   

THIS AINT EVEN THE CORRECT WAY....................................

but it will do for now....   

ist!   

it will get you where you want to be......

[Koen1]

Hi Koen1,

I will study the rest of your post, but when I got to the place where you said you had connected the secondary to the base resistor I could no longer concentrate.

The secondary is NOT connected to anything.

Hmm okay now you're having the same confusion as I had a while ago
when you guys refer to a secondary, you're talking about any additional coil that is wrapped around the basic JT.
But the JT itself consists of two coils around a core, of which only one coil is fed the input pulse.
This is basically a transformer with the primary being fed the input pulse and the secondary only
playing along in the output phase, an auto-transformer. When I say "the resistor connected to the
secondary of the JT" I am talking about this second coil that is always part of the basic JT and
always connected to the resistor on one side and the primary coil on the other.
So the JT's second coil, the secondary, is always connected otherwise the basic concept of
turning the input pulse into double its voltage would never happen.

It is the second "secondary", actually a third coil and not a second at all, that is wrapped around the first two and not
connected to them.

If we consider the JT to be a single primary coil, then this non-connected coil would be the secondary.
But I can't help but see the JT as a two coil setup and that makes the "secondary" the third coil
in my mind.

I hope that cleared up the confusion?

So yes I understand that the ouput part connected to the LEDs is not connected to the
basic JT circuit and that the "secondaries" are wrapped around the basic JT.

And I have done so, and I do get output when I wind it very basically with the basic JT
and one "secondary" (or third coil if you will) and when the secondary has all the LEDs
on it. That works, no problem.
But it is also very clear that when I do this, the original LED on the basic JT circuit,
the one that is in parallel with the transistor, that becomes quite a bit less bright.
That seems to indicate power drop in the JT while the secondary is obviously getting power,
and that seems to be exactly what you'd expect from a transformer.
So that's what's causing the confusion on the subject of output power: I don't see anything
out of the ordinary besides inductive coupling which is the basis of "wireless power",
but IST and MK1 (and others?) have been reporting huge voltages and accordingly large
DC output from their secondaries...

Thanks for the pointers to your experiences with secondaries!

Kind regards,
Koen

[Koen1]

@IST: Thank you for the advice and tips.
I shall ponder them and see if I can work it out a bit better now.

**edit**
My cores are dark grey ferrite, almost black. None of those bound
iron powder things, no funny colours, just the colour of ferrite.
I have a few types of wire, just ran out of one so now I mostly have
like 0.5mm switching wire and 0.1mm fine enameled wire left.

Okay so you tune the thing with the secondaries by... doing what??

to tune it you will wind your secondaries...

Still not getting it...
What must I look for, when is the secondary "tuned" to the core,
and how do I determine that?

if you notice on my mk2 nano you see how i tuned it ...   2 output coils ...  plus i work with how much space i have on the ring ...

Yes, I see that you used two output coils, and I see that you say that it is tuned.
I do not see how you determine that it is tuned, I do not follow what exactly I must do with the coils and the space on the core
to get it tuned. Tuned to what? Usually "tuning" refers to resonant phenomena, as in that the input signal is in phase with
a secondary signal or something like that... but I don't follow how I can do this. It has something to do with the secondaries,
ok, good, but what, and how do I see when it is tuned or when I need to add or remove another winding, and what do I do with the
spacing, and all that...??

and if i used FINER WIRE ... WELL    you get the idea.... 

Ehm... No? If you use finer wire, it will not conduct actual amps as well due to higher resistance,
but voltages will be fine... But does it add anything, really?
Or do you just mean to say that with finer wire we can wrap a lot more secondaries? Yeah, ok,
I follow that.
**edit**

Don't get me wrong here; I am not angry with you at all.
I am just a bit frustrated with this setup that I can't get to do
what you seem to be getting it to do and I don't follow why
it doesn't want to.
I appreciate your input and advice a lot. Please don't think I do not.


Regards,
Koen