PM idea

[jandell254]

I was wondering if this idea for creating energy would work (just in principle):

Method 1:
Imagine a ton of water (1000 litres) lying in a well-insulated bag on a flat plain, at sea level.  If the water is heated to steam the bags volume will increase and it will rise in the air like a balloon.  At a height of 1km the bag will have 1000 x 9.8 x 1000 = 9.8 megajoules of potential energy.  If the heat energy stored in the bag is now taken out (and stored for re-use), the bag will fall, releasing this potential energy.  When it hits the ground the process can be repeated.

Method 2:
The same setup (1 ton of water in a bag on a plain).  The water is electrolyzed into hydrogen and oxygen by passing a current through it, and so it rises.  At 1 km up it has 9.8 MJ of potential energy.  The H/O mixture is ignited, releasing energy, and falls to the ground, releasing even more energy.

What I'm wondering is if either of the methods above would produce more energy than they use, in principle.  I'll try and get around to the maths sometime, but I don't know much about chemical reactions.

[exnihiloest]

I was wondering if this idea for creating energy would work (just in principle):

Method 1:
Imagine a ton of water (1000 litres) lying in a well-insulated bag on a flat plain, at sea level.  If the water is heated to steam the bags volume will increase and it will rise in the air like a balloon.  At a height of 1km the bag will have 1000 x 9.8 x 1000 = 9.8 megajoules of potential energy.  If the heat energy stored in the bag is now taken out (and stored for re-use), the bag will fall, releasing this potential energy.  When it hits the ground the process can be repeated.

Method 2:
The same setup (1 ton of water in a bag on a plain).  The water is electrolyzed into hydrogen and oxygen by passing a current through it, and so it rises.  At 1 km up it has 9.8 MJ of potential energy.  The H/O mixture is ignited, releasing energy, and falls to the ground, releasing even more energy.

What I'm wondering is if either of the methods above would produce more energy than they use, in principle.  I'll try and get around to the maths sometime, but I don't know much about chemical reactions.

It doesn't work. When you heat water to stream or electrolyse water, you need additional energy to do it against the atmospheric pressure (it is well known that electrolysing or boiling in weaker atmospheric pressure needs less energy). 
If you attempt to recover the energy at high altitude by reverse operation, you will not recover the initial energy but only the initial energy less the potential energy of the mass due to the heigh, which corresponds to the additional energy you needed in electrolysing or heating at see level.

[Creativity]

It doesn't work. When you heat water to stream or electrolyse water, you need additional energy to do it against the atmospheric pressure (it is well known that electrolysing or boiling in weaker atmospheric pressure needs less energy). 
If you attempt to recover the energy at high altitude by reverse operation, you will not recover the initial energy but only the initial energy less the potential energy of the mass due to the high, which corresponds to the additional energy you needed in electrolysing or heating at see level.

i think he meant a balloon at atmospheric pressure,so the one filled out with steam at pressure the same as outside of the balloon.In that case i disagree with ur arguments.Unfortunately steam is not lighter than air,so balloon won't fly by itself up.This reminds me of a topic here about producing steam bubbles under water and use their buoyancy force.

Second idea is already better one IMO.U can capture hydrogen only,because oxygen is everywhere so u can use the one high in the sky Of course electrolysis is expensive,but u get ur energy back when u burn hydrogen.What jandell propose is just to use the water potential energy (u create water high in sky and let it run down a waterturbine or so).
Further this topic (produce hydrogen under the earth surface,let it go up by a pipe,burn it on the surface and return water to the electrolyser,but to pass it through the watermill)was explored on this forum durnig this summer.I think it was in the gravity wheels subforum,or other buoyancy things.Will try to find a link to it.

I think second idea is not only theoretically possible but it's also doable in reality.I just think building high structures(ur design) is more difficult than making a hole in the ground and drooping some cables and electrodes down there

[jandell254]

It doesn't work. When you heat water to stream or electrolyse water, you need additional energy to do it against the atmospheric pressure (it is well known that electrolysing or boiling in weaker atmospheric pressure needs less energy). 
If you attempt to recover the energy at high altitude by reverse operation, you will not recover the initial energy but only the initial energy less the potential energy of the mass due to the heigh, which corresponds to the additional energy you needed in electrolysing or heating at see level.

I also doubt it would work, I don't think simple laws of physics can be broken so easily if at all...  I was still hoping someone who knows their chemistry could do the calculations though, but I'll get around to that sometime, it shouldn't be too hard for a simple case like this.

What jandell propose is just to use the water potential energy (u create water high in sky and let it run down a waterturbine or so

I was thinking about this a bit more, and instead of using the atmosphere to float the bag up, the water could be electrolyzed in a piston chamber, with the expansion of the gas pushing the piston up, and the igniting of the gas allowing the piston to fall back down again, converting its potential energy into kinetic energy.  This would be much simpler than building really tall structures to gather the energy.

[brian334]

Jandel,

At my website http://bsandler.com there is a machine designed to convert gravity to

mechanical energy. There are some similarities between your machine and mine.

When you get to my website click on the tab at the top of the page marked

GRAVITY MACHINE # 2