Induction motors and capacitors lowers amps "consumption"

[Kyoat]

Twice the torque, would also indicate more HP.

The simple version is this, if you are making more usable power with less electrical power, yes that is a good thing. But proving it is a more important thing.

The killawatt meter will probably suffice, between that a volt meter, and a clamp amp meter you can find true amps, reactive amps, percent power factor, etc. It is just easier to do with a power factor meter since it does all that in one unit.

Plug you motor into the killawatt meter, write down that reading, write down the reading from the volt meter, and amp meter. Then compare the voltsXamps and what the killawatt meter says. If they say the same thing, then the killawatt meter is not a true watt meter, if there is a substancial difference between them (around Killawatt/(ampXvolts)=.70) then it should be accuarate enough. True watts/apparent watt = power factor. apparent watts= true watts+reactive watts.

The point of what I am saying is not to disagree with anyone, but simply to point out some of the properties involved with inductive loads and some of the common misconceptions.

You could be over correcting the capacitive balance and singing the reactive amperage from inductive to capacitive.

There is a simple way to do all of this, couple the motor to a generator (motor) turn the motor on, and have a load attached to the generator (500watt halogen light works well its a pure resistive load, and stays constant), record all of the metered data for both the motor and the generator loads. Make your changes (capacitors) and then do the same.

If the motor draws less, but maintains the light voltage and amps, then you can prove your point to almost anyone.

a motor with caps will run cooler, and yes its because the potential created when the field collapses has a capacitor to go into instead of back into the line voltage.

There are formulas on how to calc the capacitance needed for a given motor inductance, but most motors don't list the inductance and so then you need to have a meter for it, or be able to do the reactive amperage to capacitance calcs, all of it is on the net if you do a search you can find it. If you really really really need me to explain it I can go dig out my notes from when I was studying power factor.

Please go and check out this site:  
     
http://www.forgotten-genius.com/documents/pg__2_2.html

Not only does he explain the whole Capacitance - Induction proccess in english for the layman, but maybe you might understand more fully what is going on here.

Pay attention to his last words.  About using less current.  If you have read our entire tread, you will have noticed that when the Amps-in are low, that the amps "present" at the capacitors are very high, 9 amps or more. 

I know what you are saying about over capacitance, I spent alot of time keeping deligent data records to find the best capacitance for this motor, any less, any more and the results were not the same.  Surley the capacitance and Induction are in resonance with one another, evidenced by our drastic reduction in power consumption, while at the same time, twice the torque, all while there were alot of "amps present" between the capacitance and the inductance.

If you have read our tread, you will see all the data, from the kill-a-watt meter readings.

I hope this doesn't come over too strong, as that is not my intentions.

Research the use of capacitance and induction motors and you will find that in Canada, very large industrial companys are haveing capacitors installed on their Induction motors to lower their power "consumption" bill. Do you think they would go to the expense if it were not to their gain?

Your testing method, to say the least is interesting.  I just wonder if a 60 Lb flywheel would not also be considered a "resistive" load, if not a full resistive load for a 1 Hp induction motor.  When I get the chance I shall try that. 

But, honestly I see no difference in these loads other than the fact that you can also get harmonics between an Induction motor and the coupling of a generator in very close proxcimities.  We once coupled two 1 Hp induction motors by V-belt, with a slight gear-up-ratio so as to spin the "generator" Induction motor just a little above it's stated Rpm's so that it would generate power.  It would not, even attemps to "charge" the stator with 120 volts failed. Nothing Until I placed a 1/2" plate aluminum barrier between the two motors did the static discharge go away, and then it began charging immediatley!

The harmonics from the drive motor wouldn't allow the other to become a generator.  Although a strange event was occouring durring the no-charge attempts.  The "generator" was discharging a static spark of about 1/2" or less to the nearest source of a ground.  The shield stopped this.

Kyoat

[d3adp00l]

The first reason for me posting was just to point out to some of the readers about power factor, and to point it out.

But in regards to your data. I have some questions
How are you obtaining VAR
How are you obtaining PF

I am sure I will have more as I look further into this so I can understand better what you are reporting.

A few points, I am an electrical contractor, not that means a huge amount, but in 15 years I have never seen any motor with a power factor below .5, normally they are around .7

All motors can be corrected to a power factor of 1.0 with the proper cap, but it is advised to target .95 to protect the equipment.

The cap banks you mention are not there to save power, its a power line conditioner to prevent damage to other electrical devices. True Kilowatt meters do not record var or apparent amperage, they only record true wattage consumed. I have taken a motor a standard residential power meter, my power factor meter, my clamp type amp meter, and volt meter and have tested this. The power factor meter and power meter measured correct true wattage, the clamp meter and voltage meter reported true + reactive amperage.

I did this test many times with different household meters and loads, I was looking into it as a possible business opportunity.

Those claiming that a cap on a motor can reduce power bills either dont understand power factor, or are purposely deceiving someone for money.

I am not saying your data falls into this in any way shape or fashion, but what I am saying is in regard to the cap banks on large buildings.

I havent seen much data from your killawatt device. I will be looking for it.

[Kyoat]

The first reason for me posting was just to point out to some of the readers about power factor, and to point it out.

But in regards to your data. I have some questions
How are you obtaining VAR
How are you obtaining PF

I am sure I will have more as I look further into this so I can understand better what you are reporting.

A few points, I am an electrical contractor, not that means a huge amount, but in 15 years I have never seen any motor with a power factor below .5, normally they are around .7

All motors can be corrected to a power factor of 1.0 with the proper cap, but it is advised to target .95 to protect the equipment.

The cap banks you mention are not there to save power, its a power line conditioner to prevent damage to other electrical devices. True Kilowatt meters do not record var or apparent amperage, they only record true wattage consumed. I have taken a motor a standard residential power meter, my power factor meter, my clamp type amp meter, and volt meter and have tested this. The power factor meter and power meter measured correct true wattage, the clamp meter and voltage meter reported true + reactive amperage.

I did this test many times with different household meters and loads, I was looking into it as a possible business opportunity.

Those claiming that a cap on a motor can reduce power bills either dont understand power factor, or are purposely deceiving someone for money.

I am not saying your data falls into this in any way shape or fashion, but what I am saying is in regard to the cap banks on large buildings.

I havent seen much data from your killawatt device. I will be looking for it.

Our VAR readings are with a Kill-a-watt meter, model P-4400
Our PF readings are with a Kill-a-watt meter, model P-4400

Are you familiar with this meter?  It displays the following:

    1) Volts (true RMS Voltage)
    2) Amps (true RMS output current)
    3) Watts
    4) VA
    5) Hz
    6) PF (W/Vrms Arms)
    7) Kwh
    hour

No where in our posting's have we anywhere laid claim to "cap banks on large buildings"  All of our reference has been to capacitance on individual induction motors.

As far as deceiving others for money, we have made no claim for the Over Unity prize posted on this site (not that we wouldn't in the near future), nor are we trying to charge anyone anything.  We simply are trying to improve an already "heavily commercialized" system that in our opinion is taking us all to the cleaners if you know what I mean.

Nor are we asking money for any information that we may have. (not that some day we might, If we had a 100% fool proof system that would work to one's advantage monetarily)

You might be right about one thing though.  Maybe we don't fully understand about power Factor as you claim. 

So why don't you explain it in full detail for one and all, all aspects of PF.  Explain to us how it is that one wouldn't save on his electric bill with a reduced "consumption" of power from 9.58 amps down to 1.86 Amps.

Kyoat

[d3adp00l]

whoaa Kyoat, I did not mean for it to sound like I was implicating you in the "power factor" scammers out there, That was in no way directed towards you, I apologize for the misunderstanding. I was referencing people like this
http://www.power2savings.com/
http://www.powerfactorsavings.com/index.php

As for the large building comment: it stemmed from this
"Research the use of capacitance and induction motors and you will find that in Canada, very large industrial companys are haveing capacitors installed on their Induction motors to lower their power "consumption" bill. Do you think they would go to the expense if it were not to their gain?"

Most large facilities will put the conditioning caps in a single location at the main switchgear, with a computer controlled adjustment to correct the PF on the fly as the load changes (motors get turned on).

exerpt from a utility doc:
Why should we be concerned with Power Factor?
Low power factor means lower operating efficiency which results in a need for larger conductors
(wires), increased equipment capacity, more electrical losses and lower voltages. This could
mean higher capital investment, higher expenses, and diminished performance.

for just about everything on why large consumers put power factor correction on their equipment, look up Mike holt.
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=110653&highlight=power+factor+correction

In the case that you gave 9 amps to 1 amps, I would need more data to fully understand the readings and what they mean.

If the difference was just a power factor correction, then they would in fact save nothing, since the kwhr meter does not read reactive amperage but just real amperage. To say it reads amperage is not really a correct statement, it reads wattage, but it reacts to amperage.

I find your reported PF of less than .5 odd, and would be interested if you could measure it again. But trying to fully understand your setup with still pictures and text would be very difficult. Do you put anything on youtube?

Other than that kyoat, I am just commenting on what the odd points of what I have seen of your data. I haven't been on board since the begining, and am trying to catch up.

Again I am not saying that you are not recording what you say you are, I am just contrasting it with what I have seen. If you are showing a PF that low and amperage drops like that then you are, I am not standing there so I really don't know. I am just saying to double check it because it is out of the realms of normal by a long shot, which could very well be a good thing, or just something simple.

[Kyoat]

whoaa Kyoat, I did not mean for it to sound like I was implicating you in the "power factor" scammers out there, That was in no way directed towards you, I apologize for the misunderstanding. I was referencing people like this
http://www.power2savings.com/
http://www.powerfactorsavings.com/index.php

As for the large building comment: it stemmed from this
"Research the use of capacitance and induction motors and you will find that in Canada, very large industrial companys are haveing capacitors installed on their Induction motors to lower their power "consumption" bill. Do you think they would go to the expense if it were not to their gain?"

Most large facilities will put the conditioning caps in a single location at the main switchgear, with a computer controlled adjustment to correct the PF on the fly as the load changes (motors get turned on).

exerpt from a utility doc:
Why should we be concerned with Power Factor?
Low power factor means lower operating efficiency which results in a need for larger conductors
(wires), increased equipment capacity, more electrical losses and lower voltages. This could
mean higher capital investment, higher expenses, and diminished performance.

for just about everything on why large consumers put power factor correction on their equipment, look up Mike holt.
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=110653&highlight=power+factor+correction

In the case that you gave 9 amps to 1 amps, I would need more data to fully understand the readings and what they mean.

If the difference was just a power factor correction, then they would in fact save nothing, since the kwhr meter does not read reactive amperage but just real amperage. To say it reads amperage is not really a correct statement, it reads wattage, but it reacts to amperage.

I find your reported PF of less than .5 odd, and would be interested if you could measure it again. But trying to fully understand your setup with still pictures and text would be very difficult. Do you put anything on youtube?

Other than that kyoat, I am just commenting on what the odd points of what I have seen of your data. I haven't been on board since the begining, and am trying to catch up.

Again I am not saying that you are not recording what you say you are, I am just contrasting it with what I have seen. If you are showing a PF that low and amperage drops like that then you are, I am not standing there so I really don't know. I am just saying to double check it because it is out of the realms of normal by a long shot, which could very well be a good thing, or just something simple.

Apology accepted.  Although I was just trying to make a point.  And the point being, that we are not trying to scam anyone.  We might make mistakes, as our thread has shown, we have made mistakes, and will probably continue to do so, but that is how we ALL learn, by our mistakes.

May I make a recommendation D3adP00l? 

Please, get yourself a 1 hp Induction motor.  (set to 115 V)
Add Capacitance (we used 370 Volt caps) to it until you get the best results. (we did this by expermintation, 1 uf at a time, and did not rely upon math calculations)
Then run all the tests that you can think of.  PF, watts, Amps etc.

If your results are the same as ours, then we will both be in agreeance.
If not, and you disagree, please, by all means let us know why.  And we will listen.

This will be the best way for both of us on this issue.  Better than taking stabs at each other.  Either we are right, or were wrong.  Simple as that.  But from everything we know and have seen, believe fully that what we are reporting is 100% correct and true!

I'm unable to do any experimentation, as my proffessional line of work has now taken me to the North Slope of Alaska, and I'll be unable to do so for probably another two months. 

Good luck, Kyoat