WHY WON'T IT WORK!

[Charlie_V]

Peter,

I have an interesting thought experiment.  Take your magnet and coil (air core) and place a piece of iron between them (not too thick).  The coil is in close proximity to the iron.  When the magnet moves into the field of the iron, it induces a flux that the coil sees.  The coil will try to oppose this flux.  Now assuming that the induction from the iron is loosely coupled, (meaning the pole generated in the iron by the magnet is not that strong).  The coil will be able to push the flux away. 

I believe that under the proper parameters (spacing, iron thickness, etc.) the coil will basically neutralize the flux within the iron as the magnet approaches.  This means the magnet will not feel a lenz force as it approaches the iron/coil setup.  The attraction the magnet would normally see as it is brought near the iron will go away.  However, if the magnet leaves the iron, the coil will see a decreasing north field from the iron.  The coil will generate a south field, the south field will induce through the iron and cause the magnet to want to come back.  Therefore, as the magnet leaves the piece of iron, it will have to fight the pull of the iron on top of the south field induction from the coil.  So in other words, the force it takes to move the magnet past the iron will be double. 

The magnet won't be attracted to the iron as it approaches, but it will be doubly attracted as it leaves.  A diode placed on the coil to stop current from flowing as the magnet leaves will help.  But there is still the problem of getting the magnet past of the iron.  It appears there's no way to balance this system. 

[petersone]

Thanks for all your comments guys.
Here is another one for your knowledgeable people to ponder,I think I can explain with out a picture.
A coil with a magnet as a core,a piece of iron approaches,with the coil shorted,being pulled by the pm.and the induced coil,when level,disconnect the coil,just the pm.to hold it back,so,2 mags.pulling in,1 mag.holding back,plus some juice!!
I haven't tried it,but I will.
peter

[Charlie_V]

I'll have to think about which way the flux will induce in that situation.  A real experiment is always best. 

I will say that these types of thought experiments are the right way to go.  I have a patent application I'm defending this Tuesday that involves something close to these lines (well, the development came from the same type of thought train - the actual setup is different though.)  Until it gets accepted, I can't really talk about it.  I'm still not sure its Lenzless but if I ever get more time to work on it I'll find out - either way its an interesting setup worth patenting. 

In the mean while, let me know how your experiment goes.  Make sure you determine how the flux sets up in the coil - that will be important. 

Charlie

[lumen]

Build you own over-unity generator.

[Charlie_V]

Peter,

I thought some more on the idea you had with the PM as the coil's core.  I'm pretty sure as the iron approaches the PM core, the coil sets up a flux to oppose the polarity of the PM.  So the iron is not as attracted to the PM as it approaches (assuming the coil is shorted of course).  As the iron is moved away, the coil will induce a flux that matches the PM (increasing the intensity).  So like you said, if you put a diode on the coil, so it can't produce flux as the iron moves away, all you have to do is pull the iron away from the magnet.  But remember your losing the attraction force that you would normally get as the iron approaches.  Please test it though.  The other option is that the iron is doubly attracted as it approaches and then reduced as it moves away (which would be too good to be true!)


Lumen,

When your magnet approaches the coil as you have it drawn, the coil will oppose the flux by generating a field against the magnet.  The Lenz effect will definitely take hold.  It may be easier to remove the magnet from the iron when the coil is energized (through induction), but the coil will definitely make it harder to move the magnet across the iron bar. 



Man I wish I could post my idea but I guess I'll just have to be patient.  You guys are hitting all around it though.  Hmmmm, maybe I can talk a little bit about the operation without getting in trouble ?   Again, I'm not sure that what I have is over unity (probably not), but it doubles the frequency of the waveform - which is worth merit in my book.  And it appears that my coil is reacting to a secondary effect that the prime mover sets up (instead of reacting directly to the prime mover).  I believe this because it doesn't matter which pole is approaching, they both yield the same half period wave form.  Likewise, when the pole moves away, either pole, it produces the inverse half period wave form.  This is different from the classic coil/magnet setup where a south pole approaching/leaving generates a different half period wave form than a north pole approaching - in my setup they produce the same. 

Another reason I'm pretty sure its a secondary effect is that in the geometry of the setup, there is no way my prime mover could induce a voltage in the coil.  I've verified this by removing key components and the effect did not appear.  Then I gradually added those components back and the effect returned.  I think my original test produced ~1.5V peak to peak at about 1-2Hz.  It generated current too when I shorted the coil, but the setup was too tiny to verify if Lenz was at work. 

The disadvantage is that the waveforms generated are not as strong as when the coil reacts directly to the prime mover (as in the conventional case).  I think this can be improved but I doubt it will ever be as strong as a direct reaction.  So in that sense, when all is said and done, an optimized system may be just shy of Over Unity.  But still, after 200 years, this goes to show that there is still stuff overlooked in basic electromagnetics!