Dissociation of the Water Molecule

[jibbguy]

Nice find, Newbie.

Its always funny to see, and we've seen it several times, when they say: "... Next week they meet with the government and military to discuss the technology"... And then, of course, SILENCE . You probably can't find an article or video published after that meeting (except for the Obituaries on Dr. Kanzius, or ones on the cancer research). Even Dr. Rustin Roy's personal website has very little on it (essentially just the Paper).  This all points to it getting "secretized" or corporate shelved (probably a combination of both; like with the Meyer technology).

We saw the same thing with the local Columbus, OH TV coverage of Meyer's dune buggy, it said: "... Next week Stanley Meyer meets with the Army..."   Lol then no more TV coverage.

Imo, of all the techs they fear most, that they jealously guard the hardest.... It is probably Hydroxy on demand. We can build it ourselves en masse, produce endless fuel ourselves, and it can be retrofitted to existing vehicles... in essence it could virtually END the use of oil as a fuel in a couple of years. No wonder they killed Stanley Meyer.... And no wonder you guys can't find the info on it that we would all like to see.

But the difference there is, to me that is an important "tell" that the technology really is valid; and not a point against it. If there was "free" access and study, we would see more papers, possibly even ones debunking it, who knows. But we don't see that at all.

[newbie123]

Nice find, Newbie.

Its always funny to see, and we've seen it several times, when they say: "... Next week they meet with the government and military to discuss the technology"... And then, of course, SILENCE . You probably can't find an article or video published after that meeting (except for the Obituaries on Dr. Kanzius, or ones on the cancer research). Even Dr. Rustin Roy's personal website has very little on it (essentially just the Paper).  This all points to it getting "secretized" or corporate shelved (probably a combination of both; like with the Meyer technology).

I don't know why you would jump to conclusions about the technology being "secretized" by the government..    After all, going by conspiracy theory, they usually try to "secretize"  over unity claims, and inventions...   So,  I don't see your logic there, since Kanzius never claimed OU.

We saw the same thing with the local Columbus, OH TV coverage of Meyer's dune buggy, it said: "... Next week Stanley Meyer meets with the Army..."   Lol then no more TV coverage.

The news media is pretty irresponsible and naive when it comes to claims Meyers and Kanzius though..  Just to grab your attention, they'll say "car runs on water" or "Imagine, never having to pay for gas, etc"   when referring to Kanzius tech..   They are all exaggerations at best.

[newbie123]

Actually, newbie  (You really aren't, anymore, by the way.)  ANY HHO production method that could run a vehicle in an on-demand mode would mean a complete destruction of the current monetary and energy cartels.

True, "Free fuel" would cost the government TONS of money if they didn't  tax people for something else... Such as "fuel grade water" (or whatever a new energy source might be)... But I don't think the public would have a problem with this, to get rid of fossil fuel.

If you were making 300 billion/YR  (Gross flow, but I digress.), how much would you spend to continue that income?  I'm not saying that such things actually occur, but I can easily imagine the possibility, and to discount it is worse than sticking my head in the sand, as it were.

Is there anyone who would honestly attempt to say that the original "Tesla MT" was invalid?  It's been demo'd in many collages by people trying to wake up the general population for at least 20 years now, but everyone I have actually talked to IRL says "Science Fiction!"

There has been a lot more social programming done than most will ever admit.  I can't even call it a conspriacy, as people are aware, and really don't care.  (Sorry.  I think I"ve seen too much in my life, and the little guy, trying to help mankind, instead of him/herself, always seems to get the worst of it.  IT gets to me at times and I apologise.)

Maybe.

[Farrah Day]

Loner

I don't think that there is or ever has been anything wrong with Faraday's Laws - the guy was obviously extremely intelligent and knew what he was talking about.

Neither do I think that any of his laws of electrolysis are ever being violated. It's just that they depend on ionisation and electron exchanges that can be measured, so if ion charges are somehow being exchanged independently of our power source, we do not account for them. Hence we get what we might be perceived as over-Faraday results

As you say, it is a lot easier to get fairly accurate and predicted results from straight dc electrolysis, but once we start playing with any type of AC, the predicted results are much harder to achieve.

Not only this, but other elements might well be coming into play that give misleading results.  For example the Kanzius discovery. How can this relate to Faraday's Laws of electrolysis when no electron source is provided?  Yet combustible gas/es are still being evolved.

However, if it does come down to the behaviour of ions, and somehow the ions in the saltwater solution are exchanging charges between themselves to become atoms, then Faradays Laws still apply.

Great stuff, isn't it!

Incidentally Newbie, I agree with you about the news reports. They will always play the water fuel card to create a dramatic headline, which of course then opens the way for the critics and skeptics to debunk things before the science is fully examined, and often without a second thought. Let's face it they only care about selling stories!

[Farrah Day]

Here is that Dr Rhodes paper.

I don't believe that I'm breaking any copyright laws as I'm sure it was once in the public domain.


    -=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-
    William A. Rhodes, Ph.D.       COMMON DUCT ATOMIC OXYHYDROGEN
    Discovery & development.      All laboratory data are presented. 
    -=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-

    (This paragraph is historic.)
    Readers may wonder why I waited three decades before regaining
    interest to probe several unanswered questions of this system. A
    friend on the Internet discovered the second patent number under
    my name and notified me that another party had patented a new
    version of this concept and was claiming discovery of a new
    gas.  Inspection of his patent showed his claim as discoverer
    was not valid, since my first patent predated his by eleven
    years. I was not about to allow him that recognition.  After
    all, I reasoned, should the second man on the moon logically
    claim the distinction of being the first?  And so, research
    began resulting in this document.  The answers here are by no
    means conclusive, but lead to a better understanding of a very
    complicated reaction. If references are found proving priority
    over mine, then I will yield.  The name of the culprit was Yull
    Brown of Australia, now deceased who "invented" Brown's Gas. 
    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    COMMON DUCT ATOMIC ELECTROLYTIC OXYHYDROGEN
    Parameters & Variables by
    William A. Rhodes, Physicist

    CONCEPT DISCOVERY
    This concept was discovered in 1961 by request from a
    manufacturer for a new and novel means for producing torch flame
    temperatures beyond those of that era.  Such system was
    conceived and de- veloped involving electrolytic production of
    mixed hydrogen and oxygen.  Prior to that time, literature on
    the subject focussed exclusively on separation of such gas and
    conducting them out of the electrolyzer for tank storage. 

    Using hydrogen and oxygen immediately when generated through a
    common duct was not found in the literature and it appeared to
    be a new technology.  The first patent (Apparatus For The
    Electrolytic Production of Hydrogen And Oxygen For The Safe
    Consumption patent # 3,262,872 issued July 26, 1966.) dealt with
    intermixing the gases in an electrolyzer, issuing through a
    common duct for instant use in a torch.  9 claims in the patent
    read on; "an outlet for said generator to conduct a mixture of
    hydrogen and oxygen gases therefrom," as opposed to other
    electrolyzers using separate ducts for each gas. 

    The patent contains the financing party as co-inventor.  His
    contribution was limited to an additional small alcohol booster 
    tank, entraining the vapor for a reducing flame.  The patent
    appears to establish my precedence in the art.  Starting in
    1962, the Henes Mfg., Company of Phoenix sold many thousands of
    their trademarked 'Water Welder' in several sizes, presently
    continuing under another name. 

    Immediately after launching the Henes venture, I began research
    on a large electrolyzer patented in March 1967 under the title,
    MULTICELL OXYHYDROGEN GENERATOR (U.S Patent 3,310,483). 
    It contained 60 iron plates, nickel plated on the oxygen
    generating side and iron on the hydrogen side.  This patent
    claims use of loosely fitting grooves for holding the plates in
    tank 8"x8"x16"x3/4" Plexiglas.  I previously discovered that
    current could not bypass such plates loosely fitting in grooves
    of proper design. The torch flame from that unit was 20 inches
    long, melting everything into blue-white puddles, including
    firebrick, ceramics and carbon (in argon atmosphere). 

    REFERENCE PROBLEMS
    Of all elements, hydrogen and oxygen should hold no secrets. 
    Yet, in this example they do and have been troublesome.  Many
    experts in such gases contributed important knowledge hoping
    such would answer our questions.  Their offerings were accurate
    for tank gases, but these were not tank gases and three major
    obsta- cles remained.  1. flame propagation rate (burning
    velocity) was unusually high. 2. Flame temperature is far
    greater than tank gases.   3. Allowing the gases to mix at the
    moment of genera- tion, and delivered in a common duct for
    immediate consumption should contain both molecular and atomic
    components.  Until these were examined through experiment and
    observation, conjecture and theories were invalid. 

    FLAME PROPAGATION RATE DETERMINATION
    SETUP: A phototransistor cell was attached to a Plexiglas base
    containing a groove to locate the start and finish marks on a
    known length of transparent plastic tubing.  An ignition chamber
    with sparkplug was attached to a 2500 v transformer controlled
    with a button switch.  The electrolyzer was attached to the
    input end of the spark chamber, a 22 ft length of tubing was
    attached to the output side of the chamber.  The first marked
    tubing position was placed in the phototransistor groove, and
    the 20 ft mark was placed on top of the first tubing mark. 
    Recording equipment included a dual pen strip-chart recorder
    with parallel connection to a memo-scope and audio tape
    recorder.  NIST WWV clock ticks were coupled to all.  With this
    setup we hoped to capture precision measurements of flame front
    velocity plus rise and fall time. 

    TESTS: Electrolyzer gas purged the tubing, and since the flame
    is in the UV, the electrolyzer was allowed to run until a trace
    of KOH allowed visual spectra to produce a slight pink-white. 
    Stripchart, memoscope and recorder running and standardized. 
    Spark initiated. 

    SIX SEQUENCES: Recorded timing for 10 feet of tubing was
    consist- ently 1.225 milliseconds = 10,000 ft in 1.226 seconds,
    or 8160 ft/sec div 1088 ft/sec (speed of sound not compensated
    for our 1150 ft above sea level) was mach 7.5.  Rise and fall
    pulse duration via memo-scope was .5 millisecond with a total
    baseline to baseline duration of .6 millisecond.  With exception
    of the small error between sea level and 1150 ft above sea
    level, re- sults of these tests appear reliable.  This
    combination has MAXIMUM INSTABILITY.  Any electrostatic
    discharge can trigger a very mild explosion compared with tank
    H2 & O2.  The "ashes" from burning are of course pure water.

    LUMPED FLAME RATE CONFIRMATION
    The previous rate was resolved from pip spacings.  These tests
    were made with the plastic tubing wound into a small donut with
    phototransistor mounted on the focal plane of a camera lens. 
    A flat-black background behind the donut and floodlight illumina-
    tion allowed the donut image to be adjusted to cover the active
    area of the phototransistor.  The tubing beyond the measured
    marks were covered to prevent errors from their exposure. 

    Instrumentation and standardization was identical to the
    previous test.  Recorded data of the previous were pips, marking
    the beginning and ending of the flash.  This time, burn
    illumination produced a slightly rounded flat area with a
    baseline to baseline rise and fall of .6 milliseconds as
    before.  (Previous test shots allowed strip chart recorder gain
    adjustment for approximately 3 cm reading.  The flat tracing
    showed gradual rise and fall of  about 2 mm from beginning to
    end of a sequence.)

    Time measurements of six sequences were identical to the previ-
    ous.  The last test was made with the tubing exit clamped off,
    and gave readings identical with the others.  No tubing rupture
    occurred and explosion sound was muffled.  These should provide
    sufficient evidence of the flame propagation rate of such mixed
    gases. 

    FLAME TEMPERATURE
    Flame tests in an argon atmosphere directed on several layers of
    carbon fiber fabric with its micron size filaments (Used on the
    stealth fighter & bomber.) melted carbon filaments into
    brilliant globules.  This means carbon's melting temperature
    3550C/6422F is exceeded, but its boiling point 4827C/8720F is
    not attained.  Past that point no reference exists.   

    LIFTING POWER OF ELECTROLYZED MIXED GASES
    First, be aware we are dealing with common-ducted gases, data
    being absent from NIST and the literature.  There is also theory
    vs experimental evidence to contend with.  From the CRC
    handbook: "Lifting power of 1 cu/ft hydrogen is about 0.075 lb
    at 760 mm pressure." 

    SETUP: Our test volume chosen was 1 liter single duct electro-
    lyzed gases.  An igloo from a plastic pop bottle was cut to
    provide exactly 1000 ml volume between the flat igloo door top, 
    and the upper dome.  (1000 ml was from a standard 1000 ml flask,
    transferred to the pop bottle, marking the door top, and extend-
    ing the igloo another 2", where it was lathe cut and the doorway
    snipped out.  It was located inverted on the pan of our Mettler
    milligram balance.  An L shaped tube on lab stand extended
    through the doorway and bent upward ending near the dome top,
    leaving the balance completely free of interference.  (A standard
    refrigeration dryer capsule was inserted between the electrolyzer
    and balance for eliminating water vapor entrainment.)

    The gas generator was purged of air 15 minutes.  The balance was
    tare arbitrarily adjusted for 30 grams +- 1 mg.  The igloo was
    filled with pipe smoke; -6 mg deflection noted due to warmer
    air.  The gas tube was attached and maximum weight reduction of
    0.510 grams was attained, rounded off to the nearest mg.  Gas
    input was allowed to flow for 30 minutes for accuracy.  5
    minutes after gas cutoff, the balance returned to the pre-gas
    reading caused by rapid diffusion of electrolyzed gases into
    atmosphere.  Comparing H2 lifting power, 1 liter mixed gases
    multiplied to 1 cu/ft provided lifting power of 0.0311 lb.  Or
    41% that of H2. 

    Here we must consider single atoms of hydrogen 1 and oxygen 16
    for lifting power against atmosphere (29+).  Of course, if a
    stoichiometric mix of H2 & O2 were present, O2 alone would have
    a molecular weight of 32, and such gases introduced in the igloo
    would show a slight weight increase as the combination spilled
    *downward* through the doorway. 
   
    TESTS FOR STATIC GAS CHANGES
    Over the years many suggested if such gases were collected and
    remained unused, several kinds of recombinations would spontane-
    ously occur regardless of temperature.  Determining volumetric
    changes of stored electrolyzed gases was done with a calibrated
    100 ml domed bell of 1/4" thick Plexiglas open at the bottom and
    sliding inside a closely fitting Plexiglas container, with an L
    shaped gas entry tube extending upward under the bell.  The bell
    was held in place to prevent upward movement.  500 viscosity
    silicone oil was poured into the outer cylinder as air inside
    the bell was slowly exhausted, causing the oil to fill the bell
    completely, continuing to flow slowly into the plastic vacuum
    tubing, to eliminate all air.  A cock on the metal L tube was
    turned off, and the plastic tube pulled from the L and cleared
    of oil. 

    Room temperature was adjusted for 80 F.  When the temperature of
    the oil over the bell read 75 F, gas electrolysis began,
    allowing the plastic line to be purged of air, then connected to
    the cock which was turned on.  Gas filled the bell from top
    downward below the 100 ml mark.  The cock was turned off, gas
    line pulled, and generator switched off.  The cock was cracked
    to bleed gas down to the 100 ml level and turned off.  At the
    end of 6 months, room temperature again increased oil
    temperature to 75F. Volume change was not measurable.  The gas
    was then allowed to fill the in- verted bell on the gram
    balance.  Calculations gave the same answer as previous,
    comparing lifting ability as being 41% that of H2. (Plus or
    minus 2% error.)  To prevent any light activity, the system was
    covered with black polyethylene. 

    ADDITIONAL CONDITIONS
    The only purpose of KOH is to create the lowest possible resist-
    ance eg, highest electrical conductivity.  Being slowly depleted
    by mist generated during electrolysis, specific gravity must
    occasionally be corrected by addition of KOH. 

    It is noted that any sharp metallic whisker in the storage
    atmos- phere could cause an explosion, similar to the dangers of
    storing high percentage hydrogen peroxide, where the entire
    contents can burst into high pressure steam with disastrous
    results, just because somewhere in the interior someone forgot
    to round off a sharp edge.  On the other hand, these mixed gases
    were ignited repeatedly in a 4 liter container of 16 gage iron
    with flat ends and sparkplug.  The only evidence of ignition was
    a sharp click, with no damage to the vessel. 

    A recent report revealed one experimenter was wounded with
    shrap- nel from such explosion.  The only way this might happen
    is from accumulation in an unusually thin container, or one made
    from an easily fractured plastic.  However, a duplication of the
    original multicell unit was constructed of 3/4" Plexiglas with
    an interior volume of 8 liters.  Half of this was filled with
    electrolyte leaving 4 liters for foam and gas accumulation,
    (Identical to the volume of the iron container.  The multicell
    had a 2.5" diameter rupturable diaphragm of food grade Saran
    wrap.  The unit was set on a stand in the open and ignited.  The
    resultant pop splintered the case into many pieces which were
    all deposited within a radius of 5 feet around the stand.  The
    diaphragm remained in- tact.  Such indicated the sonic wave
    front was responsible in- stead of pressure which would have
    ruptured the diaphragm. 

    These tests allowed us to design electrolyzer tanks of materials
    and thicknesses that could contain flashbacks.  Viewing the
    permanent Plexiglas multicell in operation, electrolyte foam
    rises upward, but at maximum elevation allows sufficient gas
    space above.  Therefore no purpose is served with designs
    containing more gas than necessary for conduction out of the
    reservoir.  Extrapolation of chart curves indicate a possible
    diesel type explosion as pres- sure approaches 400 psi. 
    However, this is not conclusive.  Generation of such single
    ducted gases appears to be an event not found in nature, unless
    lightening produces them.

    FLASHBACK ARRESTERS
    There are two types of arrester.  For small units of one or two
    liters total tank capacity, two aquarium aerator stones are
    adequate.  Over time they tend to clog with KOH vapor, but can
    be easily cleared by backflushing with 50% phosphoric acid.  For
    larger units a water filled U-tube is service free and best,
    since its inertia disallows flame movement through the water. An
    alternate to the U-tube is two tubes of different diameters.
    [INCOMPLETE]

    FLAME PROPAGATION RATES OF SEVERAL GASES 
    Flame propagation rates refer to complete combustion mixtures to
    fill a measured length of tubing and after ignition, combustion
    speed is measured against standard time pulses from WWV
    transmis- sions from the National Institute of Standards and
    Technology. From the literature, the Butane rate is 60 ft/sec.
    Acetylene 330 ft/sec. Tank Hydrogen (H2) 680 ft/sec.  Since no
    literature could be found for mixed atomic gas, burning velocity
    was precision measured in our lab. 

    ENERGY CONVERSION LIMITATIONS
    Be aware of this: If a current i flows for a time t and reacts
    with water whose electrochemical equivalent is e, mass of the
    gases released is: m=eit.  This means present chemistry is
    forev- er restricted by this equation.  Direct current wave
    shapes, frequencies, half-waves, full-waves, nothing will allow
    gas delivery approaching unity.  Some claim that under certain
    elec- trical manipulations, cells run cooler, or may produce
    more gas than before.  Yet, if precision measurement instruments
    are avail- able, they will always show results exactly following
    this equa- tion.  Amperage readings made of rectified direct
    current by some hang-on ammeters produce enormous errors,
    leading the observer to believe cell efficiency has improved. 
    This requires special attention to exhibit trustworthy data. 

    ELECTROLYSIS FUNDAMENTALS
    Potassium Hydroxide (KOH) was chosen because it has the lowest
    electrical resistance attainable.  I also does not cause boiling
    when mixed with water.  Even then, it is best to use half wave
    rectification of electrical energy to allow the system to
    operate for longer periods without boiling.  After long periods
    of shut down, atmospheric CO2 is absorbed, causing carbonates to
    accumulate. In turn, they reduce output efficiency, and the
    electrolyte must be dumped and new supplied. 

    Much of that can be prevented with Vanadium Pentoxide powder, 1
    gram per liter or half liter.  This is a permanent additive,
    increasing cell efficiency by lowering cell resistance, reducing
    heating.  The ideal half wave voltage across the electrolyzer is
    1.98 volts.  But don't let this fool you. 2 volts works just as
    well.  Engineers are prone to quibble forever over fractions,
    but they just waste time. The 120 V.AC transformer must supply 3
    volts ac before being half wave rectified with a 12 volt silicon
    rectifier which should be capable of 50 amps but only uses about
    half that and its positive flexible lead going directly to the +
    nickel or stainless steel anode.  That way, the system runs
    relatively cool. 

    Since gas demands vary widely, this provides data for the
    original unit which can be scaled up as required.  The
    electrolyte is pure water with 28% Potassium Hydroxide (KOH) by
    weight. It could have been more, but would not leave space for
    periodic water addition. The Cathode is iron sheet or a tank of
    iron pipe,  It produces the hydrogen gas.  The oxygen Anode is
    the positive electrode and can be made with either pure Nickel,
    nickel plated iron or stainless steel.  If a tank is used, it is
    a split cylinder welded to the tank top which has a deep groove
    machined in its top rim.  That is were an O-ring is placed to
    separate the Anode from the Cathode. There is not much more to
    it, but the arrangement can be seen in my U. S. Patent: Jul 
    l966 ----- 3,262,872 ----- Single Cell Oxyhydrogen Generator

    The additional sub-units shown are unnecessary, and were placed
    there without my permission by my patent attorney.  A flashback
    arrester is needed as mentioned previously, and the torch tip is
    a #22 hypodermic needle, just the right size for the one pint of
    electrolyte in a 1 quart chamber.