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[exnihiloest]

Please study this idea and the movies.

Yucca's experiment with the capacitor rotating on top and with the magnet showed no current was produced when the magnet, conductor, and external circuit rotates together.  I may have found a way around this dilemma!
...

There is no dilemna!
In the Lorentz force formula F=q*V^B, V in not the speed of charges relative to the magnetic field (no sens, a magnetic field cannot be a referential frame), it is not the speed relative to the magnetic field source (there is current in the Fraraday disc with a rotating magnet in spite no relative motion), it is the speed ///relative to the observer///.
Here the capacitor plays the role of the observer. From the referential frame of the capacitor, the "rotating" conductor is at rest, then the charges are viewed at rest, the Lorentz force is null and no current can be expected.
It is a very conventional setup.
In order to get a current, you must always have a circuit in 2 parts, one seeing the other moving in the magnetic field.

[gravityblock]

There is no dilemna!
In the Lorentz force formula F=q*V^B, V in not the speed of charges relative to the magnetic field (no sens, a magnetic field cannot be a referential frame), it is not the speed relative to the magnetic field source (there is current in the Fraraday disc with a rotating magnet in spite no relative motion), it is the speed ///relative to the observer///.
Here the capacitor plays the role of the observer. From the referential frame of the capacitor, the "rotating" conductor is at rest, then the charges are viewed at rest, the Lorentz force is null and no current can be expected.
It is a very conventional setup.
In order to get a current, you must always have a circuit in 2 parts, one seeing the other moving in the magnetic field.

You're missing the point.  The inverted magnetic field where the blank area of the magnet is, may allow there to be relative motion when the disc, magnet, and external circuit rotate together.  There may be relative motion between them, because the magnetic field may be rotating counter to the others.  I am not talking about a conventional setup.  I used Yucca's conventional experiment with the capacitor as a foundation for an unconventional setup.

Experiments suggests that the magnetic field does not rotate with the magnet.  I believe the movie I posted earlier, http://www.andrijar.com/homavi/motor.wmv , shows the magnetic field is rotating counter to the disc and magnet due to the inverted magnetic field.  This is easily seen when the needle does not drag the disc over the notched area, but instead causes the disc to rotate in the opposite direction from what is expected.

There are 2 ways to control the polarity of the current (from the axis to rim or from rim to axis).  1) A change in the poles. 2) A change in the direction of rotation.  By removing a small portion of the magnet, the poles get inverted over the blank area of the magnet, which causes the current to reverse direction over this blank area, assuming the blank area where the magnetic material was removed is replaced by a non-magnetic conducting material such as copper.  This acts similar to a return path of an external circuit. 

Let's assume the current flows from the axis to the rim of the disc, except for where the inverted magnetic field is located.  The current will then flow from the rim to the axis of the disc to form a complete circuit, since the poles are reversed over this small blank area of magnetic material.  The conductive disc or conductive magnet will be a return path for the current also where the inverted magnetic field is located.

I believe a N/N or S/S configuration with slip rings on both sides of the axis to extract the current, also provides a return path by using the other side of the disc or magnet.  The final solution is to use a S/S configuration with an inverted magnetic field in a small area of the magnet with slip rings.  This would allow the rim to be connected in series to boost the voltage.

Think about this.  In a S/S configuration, the current will flow from the axis to rim on one side, then will flow from the rim to the axis on the other side to form a complete circuit with a return path.  If the current is flowing around the rim, then one side of the rim will be negative and the other side will be positive.  Now, what happens when you connect a negative to a positive?  This is connecting them in series, and this should increase the voltage at the rims.

I'm using this thread as a place holder for my thoughts on this subject until I have the resources to do these experiments on my own.


Thanks,

GB 

[Judges]

I apologize for being off topic here,as i hope one of you can help me.
I want to buy 10 pounds of bismuth as pure as possibl,as I've acquired a VERY old forge,really very well built,,and would also ask where one would buy tools,,second thought i have torch (acl+oxy)  and stick welder.
It's really the several un-answered post's requesting to purchase the ore.That I currently need help with.
Thanx for ANY help.
Good Health to all!
joe in texas

[exnihiloest]

You're missing the point.  The inverted magnetic field where the blank area of the magnet is, may allow there to be relative motion when the disc, magnet, and external circuit rotate together.  There may be relative motion between them, because the magnetic field may be rotating counter to the others...

The "relative motion" of what relative to what ?
I do not know what you mean.

What I explained is why in "Yucca's experiment with the capacitor rotating on top and with the magnet showed no current was produced when the magnet, conductor, and external circuit rotates together" and why there is no dilemna.

It doesn't depend on the topology of the magnetic field. If an observer (or the capacitor) is seeing a conductor moving in a not time varying B field, then he is seeing a force acting onto the charges (the Lorentz force). Thus if the circuit is looped in the reference frame of the observer, a current will flow.

When the observer is attached to the referential frame of the charges (i.e at rest relative to a conductor), the speed of the charges is null from the view point of the observer, then F=q*VxB = 0 because V=0:  there is no Lorentz force, there is no current.

When you say that "the magnetic field does not rotate with the magnet", you are right but you forgot the conditions. The magnetic field does not rotate with the magnet only when the magnet rotates about its axle of magnetic symmetry, because in this case the B field in any point of space does not depend on the angular position of the magnet. All is going on as if the magnet was not rotating. It is the case when you are using an ordinary cylindrical speaker magnet due to the coincidence of its axle of magnetic symmetry with the axle of geometrical symmetry.
It is very different with a cylindrical magnet having a missing part. The field in space will depend on its angular position. If it is rotating the field is also rotating. Nevertheless for any observer and conductor linked together, no matter the topology of the B field if it remains independant of time from the viewpoint of the observer: the charges are viewed at rest so no current can be expected because the Lorentz force is null.
Of course a capacitor (= observer) linked to a conductor and both moving in the not constant field of a speaker magnet with a missing part, will see a time varying B field. It is another problem.

[gravityblock]

@ exnihiloest:  I know why there was no current produced in Yucca's experiment with the capacitor.  You haven't said anything that I don't already know.

We use the external circuit to extract current off the disc.  The external circuit has a more important role in the conventional setups, and that is to provide a return path to allow current to flow.  If the current is flowing from the axis to the rim on the disc and is also flowing in the same direction from the axis to the rim in the external circuit, then there is no net current produced.  The external circuit isn't providing a return path for the electrons in this setup, which would have the same affect as having no external circuit at all.  This is the real reason for the capacitor not having a charge in Yucca's experiment, because they canceled each other out similar to winding the wire in a coil in opposite directions.

If the current is flowing from the axis to the rim on the disc and is flowing from the rim to the axis in the external circuit, then there will be a net current produced.

The inverted magnetic field will provide a return path if the notched out area is electrically connected with a conductive material from the axis to the rim.  This will provide a return path similar to the external circuit in a conventional setup.  Also, since the magnetic field is inverted over the notched out area, it will cause the current to flow in the opposite direction of the rest of the disc, thus providing a return path to complete the circuit with current flowing through it, unlike Yucca's experiment.

In the setup with the inverted magnetic field, the external circuit is not providing the return path for current to flow, but is only required to extract current from the disc. As long as the current is flowing in the disc in one direction, and is flowing in the opposite direction where the inverted magnetic field is located, there will be a current produced that can be extracted with an external circuit.

The current must flow over the inverted magnetic field opposite to the rest of the disc due to the electrons seeing a different pole over that region of the disc, thus it will take a different path of travel.

The N/N or S/S configuration also provides a return path, which is on the other side of the disc and may allow the rim to be connected in series to boost the voltage.  Once we understand that the external circuit is providing a return path for the electrons to flow, then we will realize the return path is the important factor in it's mode of operation instead of the external circuit.  Provide a return path for the electrons where the return path is not dependent on the external circuit, then the external circuit has no role or factor in it's mode of operation except to extract current from the disc.

Like I said before, this is a place holder for my thoughts on this subject until I can do my own real world experiments.  I am not posting these ideas to convince you or any other person that it is correct.  If you or anyone else has the equipment to perform these experiments, then please feel free to test these ideas and let me know the results. 

I don't expect this to happen, because you or anyone else must first believe it has a possibility in working before it is even considered to be tested.  Testing is the only thing that can convince me at this moment that I am wrong.  There is nothing you or anyone can say to convince me otherwise.


Thanks,

GB