Why is an Acoustic Guitar so much LOUDER than an Electric Guitar?

[Bob Smith]

I haven't followed this thread for awhile, so please forgive me if what I say is redundant with what's already been posted.

Among guitar builders, there's the recognition that one can easily overdrive an acoustic guitar made from inferior tone woods.  That is, the guitar's volume will not increase past a certain point as the force of a strum increases.  The resonance of a plywood and/or poorly braced top breaks down at a certain strumming force.  Conversely, a sitka spruce top that has 12 or more quarter-sawn (straight) grain lines per inch that is well-braced (e.g. on a good Martin - even a 000 model, Larrivee, Gibson or Lowden) will project an unbelieveable volume of sound the harder you strum.  This sound has an amazing ability to cut thru the noise of a crowded pub during a performance - think about Robert Johnson playing his acoustic blues in noisy crowded bars and actually being heard: pre-plywood guitar days, probably a handmade instrument.

Here's the connection to this thread (I hope):
Mondrasek notes that:

This is the case with the acoustic guitar as well.  Each note actually builds in volume from the initial pluck as the resonant "echos" reinforce it.

The way I see it, The Observer's "aha" about Lee-Tseung's forced resonance has its important merits that tie in here as well, allowing us to observe the functioning of a guitar to show us the way to what some call overunity.

I'd like to take this a step further in noting Dr. Stiffler's insistence that "pinging" electricial impulses off the spatial energy lattice will allow additional energy to be "cohered" from the energy sea in which we live.  In fact, frequency is key in many inventions drawing on the ambient energy in all things and around us.  Think about Keely vibrating a circle of set frequency tuning forks around a plate of water, which is made to release a tremendous amount of energy as frequencies build thru "resonant echoes," "forced resonance." 

As a related side note, it is interesting that some recording studios like to have an Ovation guitar on hand.  The fiberglass body cuts out a lot of harmonics, producing a more pure tone for the recording engineer who's struggling with too many harmonics in an acoustic signal.  But might the ovation's "purer" sound reduce the energetically exciting quality of a guitar's sound?  This is one reason why altho' digital recording might be more tonally precise, it will never match the warmth of the old analog recording on vinyl and analog tape.  But I digress...

Understanding the mechanics of a well-built guitar can help us better understand the pathway to overunity, I believe.  A high-end guitar will have Sitka Spruce bracing - very light and very strong (strong enough for airplanes - remember Howard Hughes' "spruce goose") to support the top that moves with resonant echoes from the back and sides.  It would be interesting to see whether crystalline resins within the top's wood cell structures release electrical impulses in piezoelectric fashion in an acoustic guitar that has reached the proper frequency for doing so.  Can an acoustic guitar vibrating at the proper frequency release electrity? Does it not just figuratively, but literally electrify the air?  Is it an accident that European violin maker Antonio Stradivari might have ground up obsidian and put it into his varnishes to make his instruments sound better?  Is there a piezoelectric effect in better acoustic instruments that makes their sound richer, fuller and brighter?

Anyway, I leave a few points to ponder, hoping to build on those already posted -

resonant echoes
forced resonance
frequency and pinging
piezoelectricity

Might all these converge to help point us more accurately toward what some would call "overunity?"

I hope that something I've said might help move the ball a few inches down the field.

B

[spoondini]

Hey Mon.

1. Forget about the Acoustic only experiment...

     This is a true statement...
     
     Same string...Same Strum... Acoustic String vibrates longer than Electric String.

                                          I have tested this.

2.   The point is when they state unamplified... logic dictates that it is being compared to an amplified guitar.

       Why this makes no sense is that they state an acoustic guitar is unamplified.

Observer,
  I'm a professional guitar player, you're statement is untrue.  You need to amplify both and listen.  The accoustic will stop ringing well before the electric because the body is absorbing the energy.  Your ears are deceiving you as you cannot hear the continued sustain of the electric guitar when unamplified - but it's still there and carries on for much - much - much - much longer.  It's not even close.

This is why when you play an accoustic, you can use much more percussive like strumming action and the sound is very stacato (volume spikes).  If you play an electric guitar the same way it's a wall of noise and difficult to identify the individual strums because the sustain is just so much greater.

The amplifier attached to the electric guitar cannot make the sustain itself, it's only picking up the vibrations of the string over the pickup.  The continued sustain you hear when amplified is the continued sustain of the string vibration itself.  The accoustic when amplified does not have any noteable increase in sustain (basically sounds the same as when unamplified).

Hope this helps bring some clarity.

[The Observer]

Spoondini,

Thankyou for you interest in this.

If you do amplify the Electric... that sound from the amp cannot reach the string...
           otherwise you will cause a feedback loop which will force the string to ring longer.
           Like when a rock star holds the guitar close to the speaker to make a note ring longer.

My guess is this is the situation you are talking about.
           The electric guitar must be unplugged, or unconnected to an amplified output.

           Now I say the Acoustic Chamber does Amplify the string's wave, hense a feedback loop is created.
           This is why the Acoustic rings longer. ;o)

Seriously.... Haven't you ever picked up an unplugged Electric Guitar at a party and wanted to show off?
                         And found there isn't a chance anyone is going to hear you?

My question to you is How does the Resonant Chamber of an Acoustic Guitar work to produce a louder sound?

Regards,
              The Observer

[spoondini]

Observer,
    Of course I recognize that an unplugged electric guitar is quieter than an accoustic guitar.  Where I disagree is that the string vibrates for a shorter amount of time(it's actually much longer, I just compared - but both instruments were plugged in to make a direct comparison).

What you need to recognize about hearing is that it's much like vision.  When you watch tv, you see one continuous moving picture and not the individual frames.  Sounds are also in 'frames' determined by the wavelength (frequency) and the amplitude (height of wave) is volume.  Visualize tha sound as a wave... You only hear anything at the highpoints and there essentially silence at the low points.  You don't perceive the silent moments because middle A is 440 cycles/second, just like you don't see the individual frames when you watch a cartoon. 

If I take wave and bounce it off something which is an even mutiple of it's wavelength (makes the wave come back directly on top of itself) you get resonance.  The amplitude of the wave doubles so you hear it at twice the volume, but remember the periods of silence are identical in each direction, but you only perceive the increased volume.  Another wave bounced off a target which is not an even multiple of the wavelength does not superimpose upon itself does not double in amplitude (or resonate) but it has less silent time (half as much) but this is not perceived by the ear, just quieter.

In this simplistic example, both waves can carry the same amount of energy, one is just perceived as louder but with non perceivable longer periods of silence.

This is what the body of an accoustic guitar does for the exact same strings. The sound bounces around inside the body to resonate but if you could perceive it, there are longer periods of silence, no additional energy is created.  The sound is just organized differently.  And this effect does 'suck' the vibration out of the strings and into the body of the guitar making the string stop vibration much quicker.

Does this help?

[WilbyInebriated]

Observer,
    Of course I recognize that an unplugged electric guitar is quieter than an accoustic guitar.  Where I disagree is that the string vibrates for a shorter amount of time(it's actually much longer, I just compared - but both instruments were plugged in to make a direct comparison).

What you need to recognize about hearing is that it's much like vision.  When you watch tv, you see one continuous moving picture and not the individual frames.  Sounds are also in 'frames' determined by the wavelength (frequency) and the amplitude (height of wave) is volume.  Visualize tha sound as a wave... You only hear anything at the highpoints and there essentially silence at the low points.  You don't perceive the silent moments because middle A is 440 cycles/second, just like you don't see the individual frames when you watch a cartoon. 

If I take wave and bounce it off something which is an even mutiple of it's wavelength (makes the wave come back directly on top of itself) you get resonance.  The amplitude of the wave doubles so you hear it at twice the volume, but remember the periods of silence are identical in each direction, but you only perceive the increased volume.  Another wave bounced off a target which is not an even multiple of the wavelength does not superimpose upon itself does not double in amplitude (or resonate) but it has less silent time (half as much) but this is not perceived by the ear, just quieter.

In this simplistic example, both waves can carry the same amount of energy, one is just perceived as louder but with non perceivable longer periods of silence.

This is what the body of an accoustic guitar does for the exact same strings. The sound bounces around inside the body to resonate but if you could perceive it, there are longer periods of silence, no additional energy is created.  The sound is just organized differently.  And this effect does 'suck' the vibration out of the strings and into the body of the guitar making the string stop vibration much quicker.

Does this help?

it "sucks" it out... LOL
how do you plug in an acoustic guitar? if you plug it in, it is not acoustic anymore, but electric...
to make a direct comparision of what? apples to oranges?