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Overunity Machines Forum



Why is an Acoustic Guitar so much LOUDER than an Electric Guitar?

Started by The Observer, July 22, 2009, 11:43:41 AM

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The Observer

#50
September 16, 2009, 04:24:37 PM
Mondrasek,

Without ever mentioning Resonance, Helmholtz or even Resonant Chamber,
                                                I highly doubt you know how an acoustic guitar works to amplify sound.

You assert that the nodes of the string Vibrate... Hello !?!?  Noooo...
                                                                                                                            It's the Antinodes that Vibrate silly.
If the nodes moved the string would not vibrate.

Finally, you say an electric string vibrates longer in the presence of a powered amp....
                 
         You bet it will.. but you don't realize that you set up a feedback loop.

            To spell it out
               When the string vibrates at it's natural frequency...
                     and the amplifier amplifies it...
                         The string then absorbs the amplified natural frequency energy from the amplifier
                              and vibrates longer.

The real question is ...
                                       does an acoustic guitar string vibrate for less time than an unplugged electric ?
                                           Because a louder sound is produced by the acoustic
                                               which would mean the same energy is used up faster.

The answer is...
                          An acoustic string/chamber vibrates LONGER and LOUDER... and unexpected result to a Newtonian physicist.

                    The reason why is the aforementioned feedback loop.. cept the resonant chamber is the amplifier.

I have tested this... and it is true.
                                                          I invite you to test it for yourself.

Then we can let the experimental data speak for itself and we can observe without judgement.

Regards,
               The Observer

mondrasek

#51
September 16, 2009, 04:55:23 PM
Well Observer, if you want to be an asshole, that is your prerogative...

I said nothing about nodes.

I also did NOT mean the electric would ring longer if in feedback with the amp.

I have played and built guitars for over 25 years.  I wrote my explanation based on that experience as well as that of the various engineering classes and real life situation that I have encountered dealing with vibration and acoustics.

I suggest YOU try this experiment.  String an acoustic and an electric with the same gauge string (only one is necessary).  Mic the acoustic through a regular microphone, and run the electric through an amp (in a different room if you want).  Record each.  Set the volume of each so they are the same.  Record a single pluck.  Your acoustic will ring for a shorter time.  Why?  Because it is dissipating the energy of the pluck directly to the air and other acoustic elements of the guitar body faster than that of the electric.

An acoustic guitar is in fact louder by design.  It transmits the energy of the plucked string to sound directly.  However, an electric guitar string rings for longer.  It does NOT transmit the energy of the plucked string to sound directly, but instead tries to maintain it within the string as long as possible, at a lower amplitude.

Same energy is release by both.  And it is the same amount of energy introduced by plucking.

An acoustic guitar is designed to transfer the energy of a plucked string directly into sound.  The electric guitar is designed to transfer the energy of a plucked string to an electrical pickup: a permanent magnetic field that is wrapped by a wire coil.  When the commonly grounded electric guitar string vibrates in this magnetic field, a similar electric current is produced in the coil.  That is the method of energy transfer in the electric: string energy becomes electric current.  Only when that electric current is amplified and introduced to a speaker do you get the sound it was designed to make.

So to put it in terms you might find familiar:  An electric guitar produces 100% more current than an acoustic guitar!  Holy shit!

Go figure.

M.

The Observer

#52
September 16, 2009, 05:46:47 PM
Hey Mon,

I agree.. I am kind of an asshole.
   I also appreciate the sarcastic tone of your reply.
     Makes a debate more interesting.
        Thank you.

QuoteThe second, and often overlooked, way that energy is dissipated from the string is by energy transfer
from the vibrating string through the bridge, directly to the sounding board of the acoustic chamber

This is where you say the node vibrates the bridge.
     As a guitar maker you should know the bridge does not and can not move.
        Technically, it is fixed and reflects the wave on the string.

In any of those classes did they mention Resonant Chambers?
   And how they work?
      I ask this because you need to realize that air inside the chamber is a spring
          that vibrates dependent on the size of the chamber and the volume of the hole.

   In other words... the Chamber is a Helmholtz Resonator.

I appreciate your experiment... but I'll give you some energy by not tapping into the coils.

      In this case I have tried it... and the acoustic string vibrates LONGER and the resultant sound is LOUDER.

     In fact I discovered that when the Low E and A are allowed to vibrate with the high E... it's even LOUDER and LONGER.

Let's get to the basics... The real question is...

   Do two tuning forks (same natural frequency) ring louder than one when 1 is struck?

I have found they are Louder &  ring Longer as well !!!!

                                       The Observer

P.S. Check earlier posts for a college text book proof that the waves emitted from the acoustic chamber
          are 1000 times larger than the waves from just the string.

              Do you know how tall you would be if you were 1000 times larger?



Paul-R

#54
September 17, 2009, 09:14:27 AM
I think mondrasek has it. Would it be true to say that the vibrating
string sends out its energy in two ways?:
1. vibrating the air and causing sound
2. vibrating the wood of the instrument.

In an electric solid bodied instrument, this latter energy ends up as a tiny
amount of heat whereas acoustic along with Dobro/National type
instruments send much of this energy back to the strings.
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