Joule Thief 101

[tinman]

MileHigh

Sure, let's take the swing as an example but let's get real about it and also talk about a real output.  Without having a real output you are just spinning your wheels and going nowhere.For starters, resonance is simply a method for storing energy.  So you have to put energy into the resonant system, and by definition take energy out of the resonant system if you are going to accomplish something.
What you can't do is not keep your eye on the energy ball, and I don't think either of you are doing that properly.

I dont think you grasp the reasoning behind resonance. The reasoning being much the same to that of having the timing correct in an ICE engine-done for best performance.

The child is at rest on the swing.  You give him regular pushes of 20 joules.  The swinging gets higher.  The child's swing energy goes something like 20 joules, 40 joules, 60, 80... 180, and then finally there is 200 joules of energy stored in the swinging.  Energy that you put there by pushing on the child.  So far the output is zero.

Now that the child is swinging high, let's factor in the air resistance.  Let's say the child loses 5 joules per swing.  So that means you only have to push with 5 joules of energy per swing to maintain the high swinging, and the output is still zero.

So, now let's talk about an output - you have to have an output.  So let's say that next to the swing there is a hanging rope that loops down and the child is wearing a leather work glove in one hand and he grabs the rope during each down swing to slow himself down and burn off some energy.  Let's say he burns off 30 joules every time he grabs the rope.

So, you push on the child with 5 joules, and he is one the way down with 200 joules of energy in the swing.  But this time he grabs the rope and when he comes back to you on the reverse swing there is only 165 joules in the swing.  So that means that this time you can't get away with pushing with 5 joules because of "swing resonance magic," you will have to push back with 35 joules of energy to maintain the swinging.
Where is the "resonance magic" there?
When the child is swinging to output 30 joules you have to input 35 joules.
If there is no swinging and you just grab the rope and pull on it, to output 30 joules you have to input 30 joules.
Exactly the same thing will happen in an LC resonant circuit.  The friction looses when swinging will be substituted for the i-squared-R losses in the wires.
So forget about your trampolines and your resonant frequency stuff, it means nothing.  Look at the energy and you will find nothing special.  It's just another wild goose chase down a garden path.

What has all this got to do with increasing the electrical efficiency of a JT type circuit by way of resonance?. I have not once mentioned that resonance will enable us to draw more out of such a system than we put in. You last lot of junk paragraphs seem to indicate that i was saying such a thing. There are a few types of resonance MH,and you seem to be stuck on one of them. JT switching is force MH,it is not resonant switching.


Brad

[tinman]

this is always a possibility, with certain types of capacitors in certain situations.
Tantalum capacitors can be exploited in this manner.
I have not had a chance to play with these new "supercaps"
but it is indeed possible that they may under the right circumstances, display this phenomenon.
Some electrolytic capacitors are designed NOT to do this, for stability purposes.

Well if it is the cap that is some how self charging at this rate,then we had better look further into it,as the circuit has been cycling for two days now,without any meters or the scope hooked up to it-->to eliminate any chance that either may have been charging the cap. But as the cap dose not charge up with the circuit disconnected,then it's a sure thing it is not the cap that is self charging.

I connected a 10 meter length of wire as an antenna,and it made no difference at all to the charging rate???.


Brad

[MileHigh]

Brad:

I dont think you grasp the reasoning behind resonance. The reasoning being much the same to that of having the timing correct in an ICE engine-done for best performance.

You have got to be kidding.  For starters you are not explaining the "reasoning," you are just throwing the word around like spaghetti hoping it will stick to the wall.  It's meaningless to say "reasoning" and then not actually state any reasoning.

Adjusting the timing of an ICE has absolutely nothing to do with resonance and there is no connection at all.

What has all this got to do with increasing the electrical efficiency of a JT type circuit by way of resonance?

That is a meaningless statement based on blind belief with no substance.  You can't even define "resonance" for a Joule Thief.  If you claim that you can, then go ahead and define and explain it.  Go ahead and define and explain the alleged increased electrical efficiency.

You last lot of junk paragraphs seem to indicate that i was saying such a thing. There are a few types of resonance MH,and you seem to be stuck on one of them. JT switching is force MH,it is not resonant switching.

The paragraphs were not "junk," they clearly show that resonance has to actually mean something with respect to energy.  You can't just throw the term around without it meaning anything.  I made no reference to you whatsoever in my breakdown of a swing in resonance, it was purely a generic analysis.

Please go ahead and define the "few types of resonance" and state which "type" applies to a Joule Thief.  How and why is it beneficial?

MileHigh

[tinman]

 author=MileHigh link=topic=8341.msg475892#msg475892 date=1456756824]
Brad:




MileHigh

You have got to be kidding.  For starters you are not explaining the "reasoning," you are just throwing the word around like spaghetti hoping it will stick to the wall.  It's meaningless to say "reasoning" and then not actually state any reasoning.

Not spoon feeding you any more MH.

Adjusting the timing of an ICE has absolutely nothing to do with resonance and there is no connection at all.

Bullshit-it's the very same.
If the timing is out on either,then in both cases you turn your fuel(energy)into heat,in sted of doing what it should be doing in each case.

That is a meaningless statement based on blind belief with no substance.  You can't even define "resonance" for a Joule Thief.  If you claim that you can, then go ahead and define and explain it.  Go ahead and define and explain the alleged increased electrical efficiency.

About time you did some thinking of your own MH,but that seems to be fading fast for you.

The paragraphs were not "junk," they clearly show that resonance has to actually mean something with respect to energy.  You can't just throw the term around without it meaning anything.  I made no reference to you whatsoever in my breakdown of a swing in resonance, it was purely a generic analysis.

The paragraphs were not "junk," they clearly show that resonance has to actually mean something with respect to energy.  You can't just throw the term around without it meaning anything.  I made no reference to you whatsoever in my breakdown of a swing in resonance, it was purely a generic analysis.

Like i said,you just dont get it MH.
When will the wine glass break using sound waves to break it?
Oh thats right,when the wine glass vibrates at resonance with the sound waves-->but will not break either side of said resonant frequency.
If this dose not explain the importance and increase of efficiency due to resonance MH,then your a lost cause.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BE827gwnnk4


Brad

[MileHigh]

Brad:

Not spoon feeding you any more MH.

Don't even try to play a silly game like that.  You like to talk the talk with a lot of meaningless statements that are cliches but apparently you can't walk the walk.

I asked you to explain the "reasoning behind resonance," which was your statement.  So I said this:  For starters you are not explaining the "reasoning," you are just throwing the word around like spaghetti hoping it will stick to the wall.  It's meaningless to say "reasoning" and then not actually state any reasoning.

If you refuse to answer and state the "reasoning" in the "reasoning behind resonance" then you are just bluffing and have nothing to say.  This statement from you to me, "I don't think you grasp the reasoning behind resonance" with respect to a Joule Thief is complete and total BS unless you explain the reasoning.  Put up or admit that you can't back up your statement.

Bullshit-it's the very same.
If the timing is out on either,then in both cases you turn your fuel(energy)into heat,in sted of doing what it should be doing in each case.

No, an ICE doesn't resonate in any way, shape or form whatsoever.  It's not "the very same" there is no relation at all.  If you talk about proper timing, then there is more of a connection between an ICE and a Joule Thief in normal operation.  i.e.; the valves close at the right time just like the Joule Thief switches at the "right time."

About time you did some thinking of your own MH,but that seems to be fading fast for you.

That's anther poor attempt as distraction and deflection.  Another attempt to feign that I am the one that doesn't know what I an talking about instead of you backing yourself up and talking real substance about your silly claims.

I will repeat what I said:  That is a meaningless statement based on blind belief with no substance.  You can't even define "resonance" for a Joule Thief.  If you claim that you can, then go ahead and define and explain it.  Go ahead and define and explain the alleged increased electrical efficiency.

So go ahead and define "resonance for a Joule Thief."  I don't think you can at all.  Instead it's all bluster and blarney and BS.  You are back to holding your breath and turning blue.  So put up or say nothing and FAIL.

Like i said,you just dont get it MH.
When will the wine glass break using sound waves to break it?
Oh thats right,when the wine glass vibrates at resonance with the sound waves-->but will not break either side of said resonant frequency.
If this dose not explain the importance and increase of efficiency due to resonance MH,then your a lost cause.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BE827gwnnk4

I get it perfectly and so far you can't say a single thing to back up your statements.  You are playing the same BS game that a typical "free energy magnet motor" guy plays.

Oh thats right,when the wine glass vibrates at resonance with the sound waves-->but will not break either side of said resonant frequency.
If this dose not explain the importance and increase of efficiency due to resonance MH,then your a lost cause.

Big deal that the wine glass breaks at the resonant frequency.  That has zero to do with a Joule Thief.  What "increased efficiency" are you talking about?  Define it please and relate it to a wine glass and a Joule Thief.  If you can't do that then your statement is more BS.  So far you are the lost cause because all you can say are meaningless cliches, nothing more than a word salad with no substance to it at all.

The wine glass in resonance has nothing to do with your meaningless statements (unless you change that) about a "Joule Thief in resonance."

Since you are playing the "MileHigh you just don't get it" game, let's see your smarts with respect to the clip.  Please Describe the resonance process in simple terms for the wine glass and describe how the resonant frequency is determined for the wine glass in a generic sense.  In other words, how and why is the wine glass resonating, and you should not talk about the external speaker at all in your discussion.  I am not interested in the external speaker at all, I am just asking you how the wine glass resonates.  If you flick your finger at a wine glass it will resonate, what is happening?

So, we will see if your talk about a "resonant Joule Thief" has any substance to it at all, or if it is all just meaningless bluff and useless cliches.

MileHigh