Joule Thief 101

[Pirate88179]

OK

About the wine glass.  There are still a lot of variables unaccounted for.

For example:

Is the woman holding the wine glass pretty?  Is she married or available?  Is she of average weight or packing "a few extra pounds"?
What is her hair color?  Is that her natural color?  Is that actually her hair?

Now for the wine:

Is this a red or white wine?
Is it vintage?  Or did it come out of a box?  Was it dry or sweet?  Is it a blended wine?

Now for the environment:

Was it raining outside?  What was the humidity?  Dew point?  Barometer reading?  Was it hot?  Or freezing cold?


Now for the stimulus to break the wine glass:

Was it Ella Fitzgerald?  Was it a Memorex tape?  If you could not tell the difference, would you buy a Memorex tape?

MH's question about the wine glass is no where as simple as people might think.  We have not even discussed the composition of the glass...
was it crystal? Or just cheap lead glass?  Had this glass ever received any impacts to its surface that might compromise its structural integrity? ( ie was it ever dropped or scratched?)

Anyway, I am not sure why we are discussing wine glasses when the topic of the day is JT resonance...is it possible?  Is it desirable?  If so...why?

Bill

[Magluvin]

OK

About the wine glass.  There are still a lot of variables unaccounted for.

For example:

Is the woman holding the wine glass pretty?  Is she married or available?  Is she of average weight or packing "a few extra pounds"?
What is her hair color?  Is that her natural color?  Is that actually her hair?

Now for the wine:

Is this a red or white wine?
Is it vintage?  Or did it come out of a box?  Was it dry or sweet?  Is it a blended wine?

Now for the environment:

Was it raining outside?  What was the humidity?  Dew point?  Barometer reading?  Was it hot?  Or freezing cold?


Now for the stimulus to break the wine glass:

Was it Ella Fitzgerald?  Was it a Memorex tape?  If you could not tell the difference, would you buy a Memorex tape?

MH's question about the wine glass is no where as simple as people might think.  We have not even discussed the composition of the glass...
was it crystal? Or just cheap lead glass?  Had this glass ever received any impacts to its surface that might compromise its structural integrity? ( ie was it ever dropped or scratched?)

Anyway, I am not sure why we are discussing wine glasses when the topic of the day is JT resonance...is it possible?  Is it desirable?  If so...why?

Bill

"Anyway, I am not sure why we are discussing wine glasses when the topic of the day is JT resonance...is it possible?  Is it desirable?  If so...why?"

Well Im hoping to find out what resonance here will do.  What Im imagining is when we turn the resistor down, below the point of the led being lit at all, that as we see the trace on the scope becoming less and less, down to the point of it being a sine wave, as Smoky claimed and I have reached so far, that if we hit the resonant freq of the winding/transformer, its ring at the resonant freq will be much stronger than we see on the trace above or below the resonant freq.

Like if we put a small speaker say an inch above a guitar strings and drive the speaker at the freq of one of the strings, that string will vibrate. Change the freq to another string and that string will vibrate. So what we will look for is getting the JT circuit to try and run at a freq the transformer/winding/core likes to ring at and hopefully it is enough to run the led at the cost of lower input compared to ho the JT works as we know it now.

Like a standard wall transformer 120v to 12v. It doesnt operate at a resonant freq. But if it was run at resonant freq, would there be a difference in efficiency if we used that transformer at its resonant freq, of which will always be some freq above 60hz, and more like way above 60hz. But a standard transformer has too many losses, especially at high freq with the laminated cores.

Anyway, back to work. 

Mags

[Magluvin]

Something ive been thinking about for some time.  It fits the topic because it is involved with the transformer function.


If we have a rod core, with say the primary on one end and a secondary on the other, where the pri and sec are not overlapped, when we put an ac input to the primary, loading the secondary should have the secondary producing an opposing field to the primary. No?

So with a toroid core, with primary on one side of the core and the secondary on the other side, when the primary induces the loaded secondary, and the secondary produces an opposing field, there is no longer a loop of field in the core as there should be both windings having their N pole fields facing each other in the core, and likewise the S pole fields opposing at the other end of the core in the open face of the core between the ends of the primary and secondary windings.

So it wouldnt be that the core is just saturated by increasing continuous loop of field in the core, it is sort of separating the core field holdings and we should be able to see field leakage N at one side of the core between the 2 windings ans S at the other during a half phase of operation, and the opposite happens at the open spaces of the core between the 2 windings.

Maybe im just tired. If it is so, it would seem we didnt know that before?

Mags

[Pirate88179]

Well, I appreciate your research efforts.

As far as resonance goes...what will resonate?  The toroid?  the coil windings on the toroid?  The entire JT circuit?


I do not pretend to know the answer.  I have now learned that when I was tuning my simple JT circuits, it was not to resonance, but to a sweet spot, which evidently is different.  What I really think is going to happen is....just like the 2 stroke motor hitting resonance using a tuned exhaust pipe, we might see that the JT circuit hits resonance with a small part of the circuit just as the exhaust is only a small part of the gas engine.

As far as a tank circuit goes, we have made JT circuits (Thanks to Gadgetmall) with a cap at the base of the transistor.  Would this make a "tank" circuit then?  (I really do not know, I am asking)  I just watched a good video last night done by Colin's Lab  (From Adafruit) where he showed how energy was stored in an inductor...like in a capacitor so, does that mean that when using an inductor that we now have capacitance and therefore, resonance might play a part in efficiency?  I do not think that anyone here is claiming O.U. from resonance in a JT circuit...however...I can feel MH's pain as you do not have to go very far on Youtube to see resonance listed as a KEY to OVERUNITY.

I think, and I am not speaking for him, this is my opinion, that MH is a bit sensitive to the resonance claims because, most of the time, the are linked to overunity, and he knows better.  The arguments going on here now are a bit different but, I will say that the word "resonance" has been abused here on this forum, on Youtube, Peswiki, and many other forums that you could name.

I do not think that Tinman, Smokey, or anyone else here has claimed that resonance is the key to overunity...just added efficiency. (Which I agree with)  So, it does not matter if it is a wine glass, ICE, toroid, or something else, we just need to move on and discuss things that might help us move forward.

Am I saying wineglass schmimglass?

Yes, I guess I am.

Bill

[Magluvin]

Well, I appreciate your research efforts.

As far as resonance goes...what will resonate?  The toroid?  the coil windings on the toroid?  The entire JT circuit?


I do not pretend to know the answer.  I have now learned that when I was tuning my simple JT circuits, it was not to resonance, but to a sweet spot, which evidently is different.  What I really think is going to happen is....just like the 2 stroke motor hitting resonance using a tuned exhaust pipe, we might see that the JT circuit hits resonance with a small part of the circuit just as the exhaust is only a small part of the gas engine.

As far as a tank circuit goes, we have made JT circuits (Thanks to Gadgetmall) with a cap at the base of the transistor.  Would this make a "tank" circuit then?  (I really do not know, I am asking)  I just watched a good video last night done by Colin's Lab  (From Adafruit) where he showed how energy was stored in an inductor...like in a capacitor so, does that mean that when using an inductor that we now have capacitance and therefore, resonance might play a part in efficiency?  I do not think that anyone here is claiming O.U. from resonance in a JT circuit...however...I can feel MH's pain as you do not have to go very far on Youtube to see resonance listed as a KEY to OVERUNITY.

I think, and I am not speaking for him, this is my opinion, that MH is a bit sensitive to the resonance claims because, most of the time, the are linked to overunity, and he knows better.  The arguments going on here now are a bit different but, I will say that the word "resonance" has been abused here on this forum, on Youtube, Peswiki, and many other forums that you could name.

I do not think that Tinman, Smokey, or anyone else here has claimed that resonance is the key to overunity...just added efficiency. (Which I agree with)  So, it does not matter if it is a wine glass, ICE, toroid, or something else, we just need to move on and discuss things that might help us move forward.

Am I saying wineglass schmimglass?

Yes, I guess I am.

Bill

From what I got from this is that possibly hitting the resonance of the windings, what ever their inductance, and their capacitance, which can ring and have a resonant freq that is determined by those values. These freq are up there in the mhz. And possibly get the core to resonate of which is a much higher freq.

So I believe we aim for those goals to see what we see.

What I was getting at with the guitar was if the speaker is at a freq of the first string, the others will remain relatively still in comparison to the first string. So all that sound energy from the speaker will move the other strings, but no where near their tuned freq. So if we play the speaker at C note and we have 1 string on the guitar and it is tuned at A, there would be a lot of wasted energy from the speaker if our objective is to move the string with the speaker. But if we play the speaker at the strings tuned freq, then our objective is achieved in a big way with the same input power.

Now we look at the transformer. If we hit the primary up with 60hz, and the secondary has a 1mhz resonant freq, then we must be wasting lots of power trying to get the secondary to provide output. Where if we were to input the resonant freq of the secondary, there should be more activity in the secondary than at 60hz.  Seems to make sense. No?    Im just getting a grip on it more recently.

Mags