Ultracaps tested for excess energy

[Mk1]

@MH

So how do you like , being played , i can play that game just as good as you .

@gadget

You need snow ? If you pay the shipping i can get you a boat load...

[MileHigh]

Albert:

So what is the ultimate Joule Thief?  How can you really get more efficiency?

The answer is to abandon the whole Joule thief concept and do it with a microcontroller or a pair of CMOS 555 timer chips.

What is a Joule Thief really?  Did you ever pose that question to yourself?

A Joule thief is nothing more than an inductor connected to your voltage source on one side, and a switch that connects to ground on the other side.  The end of the inductor that connects to the switch also connects to a diode to collect the energy spikes and pump them into a load or into a capacitor.

When you reduce it to its basic form, a Joule Thief is a pulsing inductor that gets its energy from a voltage source, typically a battery.  The pulsing inductor discharges it's energy into a load, typically an LED.

A timing source controls the switching of the Joule Thief.  You pay a price in power consumption and have limited control over the timing source when you make a standard Joule Thief circuit.

Therefore the solution is to switch over to a more intelligent timing source and get rid of the Joule Thief circuit altogether.

The more intelligent timing source could be a microcontroller.  All microcontrollers have built-in hardware timer registers that can control the frequency and duty cycle of a square wave on an output pin.  This gives you the ability to have software control over the timing signal generated by the hardware that is built into the microcontroller.   You could write a simple program that reads some of the I/O bits that are configured as inputs.  You could have switches that control frequency up and down and duty-cycle up and down so that you could adjust your frequency and duty cycle of your timing source "live" while the microcontroller runs.  The microcontroller would consume a small fraction of the power that the Joule Thief consumes in overhead to do the timing function.

Another option would be to use two CMOS 555 timers.  One 555 runs at a variable frequency and connects to a second 555.  This gives you the running frequency. The second 555 runs in "one-shot" mode and gives you an adjustable pulse width to turn on the switch.  This setup would consume a small fraction of the power compared to the JT also.

There you have two options for a rock-steady, reliable, and flexible timing source for switching the inductor current on and off.  Both of them would consume almost no power.

Then, it would be up to you to pick the switching transistor and inductor/toroid setup.  You would have the ultimate flexibility here, pick your transistor, pick your toroid, decide how many turns of wire.  There is nothing stopping you now.  You know that you have a reliable and flexible timing source, and you can mix and match any coil configuration you want.  You could probably fire Xenon flash tubes from disposable cameras, neons, as many LEDs as you want, charge any capacitor at any rate that you want, control exactly how much energy you put into the coil before it discharges, the sky is the limit.

For example, if you want to light a CFL, then you could lower the switching frequency to 70 Hz, just above the human eye's ability to perceive flickering.  Then you could chose your coil/toroid, and then play with the "on" pulse width to put the exact amount of energy that you want into the CFL  for every "burn."  Like I said, the sky is the limit.

Time to "think outside of the box" Albert, and break yourself free of the chains of the Joule Thief circuit.  By using a microcontroller or a dual CMOS 555 timer setup, an astable multivibrator triggering a monostable multivibrator, then you have complete control over efficiency and power consumption.  For every load there is an optimal configuration of inductance and switching time to give you the best performance.

One serious option is to go air core.  Why go air core?  Because all toroid cores burn off energy, they are "lossy."  If you use an air core inductor, then there are no energy losses associated with a ferrite core because there is no ferrite core anymore.

What I described above is the next logical step in experimenting with Joule Thieves - move past them and do a completely new design that does away with the constraining Joule Thief "transfomer" and switch over to a computer-controlled or programmable-555-timer-controlled switching function that drives your choice of transistor and coil.

Are you listening Ist?   The sky is the limit!!!

MileHigh

[MileHigh]

Bonus round just for fun on the mircocontroller.

The desire is to have a microconrtoller that generates a rock-solid timing source for turning on and off your choice of transistor switch that is connected to your choice of inductor.  It would be great if you could adjust the frequency and duty cycle of the timing source "live" while the microcontroller is running.

Let's assume that you have eight programmable I/O bits to work with, and you configure them all as inputs.  Thee is a separate "programmable timer out" pin on the microcontroller that connects to the switching transistor.

So here is an example of what you could do with the eight input bits:  (Remember the code running on the microcontroler is in a loop reading these bits "live" and that is how you control the frequency and duty cycle)

Let's assume that the microcontroler has some "e-squared" non-volatile memory where you can store some bytes.  We are going to use this e-squared memory.

Bit 0 - "frequency slew up" - when you push on this button the frequency slowly increases

Bit 1 - "frequency slew down" - when you push on this button the frequency slowly decreases

Bit 2 - "pulse width increase" - when you push on this button the pulse width slowly increases

Bit 3 - "pulse width decrease" - when you push on this button the pulse width slowly decreases

Bits 4 and 5 - "waveform store selection A, B, C, D"  - these are two switches that define which of the four waveform storage registers you are currently using

Bit 6 - Store waveform - push on this button to save waveform A, B, C, or D into the e-squared memory

Bit 7 - Load waveform - - push on this button to load waveform A, B, C, or D from the e-squared memory

Now wouldn't that be cool?  A little microcontroller-based timing waveform generator that lets you save or load up to four waveform presets, all operating "live" with separate controls that allow you to adjust the frequency and pulse width (a.k.a. duty cycle) of your timing waveform in real time.

Think outside the box jay-tee gang!

MileHigh

[gyulasun]

....
I have tested this circuit and can confirm that when the switch is closed then the light bulb light up. What I can't understand is how the power can be transferred to the output when no magnetic lines is crossing the output coil windings because all magnetic lines is inside the Ferrite core. The same goes for the center winding, all magnetic lines is inside the first core, so how can the power be transferred to the second core if no magnetic lines is crossing the wire?

Alex.

Hi Alex,

May I tell you my understanding on your question as I see it. I do not claim I can fully explain it from A to Z but may shed some light on it from different angle.

Induction takes place also when the flux changes in a ferromagnetic core (that is able to guide magnetic flux) AND this core is placed inside of an (previously air cored) coil like a solenoid or a multilayer, multiturn coil.
No need for flux line crossings, the periodic movement of the flux INSIDE the core is enough to induce voltage in the coil. No matter what makes the periodic movement of the flux, be it a sine wave or another core that mechanically opens or closes the magnetic path of the first core with coil around it.
So the core serves as a flux guide, keeps the flux inside its own volume and whenever the flux changes inside the core's body voltage is induced in the coil wound around the core.
Or you do not really have to wind the coil around the core but say in case of a toroidal core you pass a piece of wire through the middle of the core, flux will change in the toroidal core when you change the current in the wire. (Clamp-on current meters utilize this.) 
This works backwards too: if you wind some turns of wire onto a toroidal core and change the current in this wire, then it induces voltage in the single pieace of wire you place and guide through in the middle center area of the toroid,  some people call it the A-field that causes this kind of induction.

So I imagine the changing flux inside a core to be the same phenomena as when you place a ferrite rod inside a solenoid coil and then you pull it out.

(So called parametric induction can also occur in LC tank circuits when you change either the C or the L values by either mechanically or electronically and this change has a definite relation to the LC circuit resonant frequency; choosing the corrent parameters the mechanical movement of the iron core for instance can maintain the resonant voltage/current in the tank, maybe after some starting voltage kick to the tank or the core may have a small remanent magnetism to start up the process.

In case of your circuit above, when you close the switch, current starts flowing in the middle coil L2, this would be a short-circuit current if the second core with L3 and a load were not there. So the changing current in L2 makes the flux also change in the second core on the right hand side and voltage can induce in coil L3 in the same way it would have been wound onto core 1 on the left hand side. And the induced voltage in L3 drives current through the bulb, this is the load that will reflect back to the input 12V AC source.

Maybe you have not learned much from my rantings but if anyone else finds it useful then it have been worth spending some time.
Of course Maxwell equations surely include the explanation but it takes much effort to work through them and make conclusions, establish initial conditions for integral / differential equations, then interpret the calculations to real world.

rgds, Gyula

[gadgetmall]

Albert:

So what is the ultimate Joule Thief?  How can you really get more efficiency?

The answer is to abandon the whole Joule thief concept and do it with a microcontroller or a pair of CMOS 555 timer chips.

What is a Joule Thief really?  Did you ever pose that question to yourself?

A Joule thief is nothing more than an inductor connected to your voltage source on one side, and a switch that connects to ground on the other side.  The end of the inductor that connects to the switch also connects to a diode to collect the energy spikes and pump them into a load or into a capacitor.

When you reduce it to its basic form, a Joule Thief is a pulsing inductor that gets its energy from a voltage source, typically a battery.  The pulsing inductor discharges it's energy into a load, typically an LED.

A timing source controls the switching of the Joule Thief.  You pay a price in power consumption and have limited control over the timing source when you make a standard Joule Thief circuit.

Therefore the solution is to switch over to a more intelligent timing source and get rid of the Joule Thief circuit altogether.

The more intelligent timing source could be a microcontroller.  All microcontrollers have built-in hardware timer registers that can control the frequency and duty cycle of a square wave on an output pin.  This gives you the ability to have software control over the timing signal generated by the hardware that is built into the microcontroller.   You could write a simple program that reads some of the I/O bits that are configured as inputs.  You could have switches that control frequency up and down and duty-cycle up and down so that you could adjust your frequency and duty cycle of your timing source "live" while the microcontroller runs.  The microcontroller would consume a small fraction of the power that the Joule Thief consumes in overhead to do the timing function.

Another option would be to use two CMOS 555 timers.  One 555 runs at a variable frequency and connects to a second 555.  This gives you the running frequency. The second 555 runs in "one-shot" mode and gives you an adjustable pulse width to turn on the switch.  This setup would consume a small fraction of the power compared to the JT also.

There you have two options for a rock-steady, reliable, and flexible timing source for switching the inductor current on and off.  Both of them would consume almost no power.

Then, it would be up to you to pick the switching transistor and inductor/toroid setup.  You would have the ultimate flexibility here, pick your transistor, pick your toroid, decide how many turns of wire.  There is nothing stopping you now.  You know that you have a reliable and flexible timing source, and you can mix and match any coil configuration you want.  You could probably fire Xenon flash tubes from disposable cameras, neons, as many LEDs as you want, charge any capacitor at any rate that you want, control exactly how much energy you put into the coil before it discharges, the sky is the limit.

For example, if you want to light a CFL, then you could lower the switching frequency to 70 Hz, just above the human eye's ability to perceive flickering.  Then you could chose your coil/toroid, and then play with the "on" pulse width to put the exact amount of energy that you want into the CFL  for every "burn."  Like I said, the sky is the limit.

Time to "think outside of the box" Albert, and break yourself free of the chains of the Joule Thief circuit.  By using a microcontroller or a dual CMOS 555 timer setup, an astable multivibrator triggering a monostable multivibrator, then you have complete control over efficiency and power consumption.  For every load there is an optimal configuration of inductance and switching time to give you the best performance.

One serious option is to go air core.  Why go air core?  Because all toroid cores burn off energy, they are "lossy."  If you use an air core inductor, then there are no energy losses associated with a ferrite core because there is no ferrite core anymore.

What I described above is the next logical step in experimenting with Joule Thieves - move past them and do a completely new design that does away with the constraining Joule Thief "transfomer" and switch over to a computer-controlled or programmable-555-timer-controlled switching function that drives your choice of transistor and coil.

Are you listening Ist?   The sky is the limit!!!

MileHigh

MH Don't call me uneducated in the electronics field one more time . I also have been on the bench not 1000 of hours but 1000's of days months years . I know electronics . I know micro's and i certainly know transistors .I have the ultimate JT many moons ago . I sell the plans for it and i also posted a version so long ago in the jt thread . It at least 98% efficient . . It draws 0.80 ma from 0.18 volts and lights 4 white leds full bright in parallel . I call it  Extremely low powered Jt .Uses a Museum quality HEP638 . This i s the most efficient JT on the internet as of today . If you can find the transistor which i did find one and bid 50 dollars on it and lost to a hig bid of 220 US you can build one / It has been running all year long and i put it in a clear cube to pass it on to my daughter . Mh you don't know everything SIr . No one does . cause and effect is only done by trial  not el 101 old school stuff . think out of the box is all i do . you think in a box. you try to tidy every thing i or we do in a neat little package and really have no idea . What is a microwave over ? Its a light speed particle accelerator  . And i believe this is where IST has Created His transporter theroy/machine possibly and why it dont work on metal objects (isT JUST AS WELL LET IT OUT ,IT CAME TO ME IN A DREAM )  just a guess but everyday people have no idea whats in there homes . Jt are along the same principal . you say it dosnt matter the size core is not responsible for transistor oscillations or Magnetic flux . I say your wrong and have done experiments from small to larg core . LARGER CORES PRODUCE MORE VOLTAGE AND CURRENT VERSE A SMALLER CORE WITH THE EXACT SAME SETUP . ANYWAYS I AN STILL IGNORING YOU BE JUST HAPPENED TO HAVE THE OPTION TO SEE IF YOU COULD SAY ANYTHING REMOTE POSITIVE TO OUR GROUP AND PROJECT . MERRY CHRISTMAS STILL . I THINK YOU HAVE A HEART AND HEART GOES A LONG WAYS HERE SO KEEP IT SIMPLE . YOU MAY THINK I TALK LIKE A CHILD AND AM SIMPLE MINDED BUT I AM KIND AND RESPECT FOLKS THAT WANT TO LEARN WHAT I KNOW . THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT WOULD LOVE TO LEARN HOW TO BUILD THESE AMAZING DEVICES LIKE LIGHT THERE CHRISTMAS TREE WITH A ONE VOLT BATTERY LIKE WE DID LAST YEAR . NOW ITS ON TO LIGHT OUT HOUSE WITH A ONE VOLT BATTERY THIS YEARS AND SELF RUNNING POWER SUPPLIES . SECOND STAGE . SORRY FOR THE CAPS TO WORN OUT TO TAP IT .  PEACE AND BE PEACEFUL AND A LITTLE BIT MORE CONSIDERATE OF YOUR FELLOW MEN . iTS GREAT WHAT YOU KNOW BUT I WOULD RATER NOT HEAR IT BECAUSE I HAVE WOULD RATHER BUILD  AND  ITS FUN AND RELAXING EVEN AFTER WORKING ON  BENCH ELECTRONICS SINCE THE EARLY 70'S ., AND ALSO I REMEMBER WHEN BLACK SABBATH WAS JUST A GARAGE BAND AND WAS PRACTICING AT THE vfw IN VA  A FEW YEARS BEFORE THEY GOT FAMOUS , SAME WITH GODSMACK .skullY IS A FRIEND OF MINE AND I JAMMED WITH HIM BEFORE HE BECAME THE SINGER HERE IN A GARAGE  IN NC IN HIS OLD BAND LEX LUTHER . SO THE OLD DAYS I KNOW ABOUT AND STILL REMEMBER A LOT OF THINGS THE BRAINSTROKE DIDNT WIPE . OUT . YES MY  THOUGHTS JUMP AROUND BECAUSE THERE IS SO MANY THINGS I THINK ABOUT AND HAVE TO DEAL WITH ..Also stabilizing the oscillation is not the answer . The circuit i posted of a standard jt is more efficient because i believe it needs random oscillation to produce the third component the irregular back spike that is is normally wasted and considered useless buy current  electrical laws and is suppressed . Actually a buzzing relay instead of a transistor could increase bcap charging effeciancy . This is where i stand . stable oscillator will produce stable peaks . we dont want that for my project .

also remember this Board or forum is in Germany not US and pig language is the acceptable way  so keep it simple and remember they were the first in pretty much everything the US has today . Believ in the unbelievable .I have a relative who is a scientist in nasa . He talked to me one day in private . All i can tell you is anything you could possible dream up is real . including anti gravity , proton weapons , over unity  and other elements that current science is unaware of and do not exist in nature on this planet or the periodic  element chart that exhibit these phenomena . i Dont care if you don't believe me .This is why your rants are useless to me and why i pursue and experiment rather than try to explain them .  l8r