double pendulum lever

[mr_bojangles]

i don't mind at one bit, on the contrary id rather have any response than none at all, and i know you are experienced in gravity devices

the efficiency question

yes, from what i can remember, because gravity is an acceleration, the lower the pendulum is released it does become slightly more efficient, because gravity has less "time" to act upon the weight, but at the same time the smaller the angle we release the pendulum at, the less distance each weight is respectfully to the axle

i feel as if the torque would be sufficient to overcome gravity, but i do have ways to make this more efficient and work better,

when you say faster, your implying more force right, because to get the same mass the same distance in a faster time just requires more force, meaning a way to get the counterweights further from the axle while maintaining a vertex angle for each pendulum being less than or equal to 45*

yes im fairly confidant i can, a different set up will come later, possibly with math that could at least prove it will make as much energy as it takes out

im still very curious if you or anyone else has any opinions as to how they think this mechanism will behave in  a real world situation

[mr_bojangles]

i made a quick pendulum and it seemed to lose about 10* when i dropped it from 0* (or 180)

when i dropped it from 45*, it seemed to lose 1, possibly 2*

so you were correct that 45* will make it more efficient, and with this knowledge i think i can prove it will work

firstly i want to know the reason why people think this wouldn't work, or if they agree and see something

[sillyfellow.wayne]

  HI MB,
You did bring up a good point about the efficiency of a pendulum.
One thing I have wondered is if they swing to high, do they become less efficient ?
If so, this might mean limiting their swing to 45º or less.
I hope you don't mind my making a couple of suggestions.
Pequaide once mentioned that Galileo did an experiment with pendulums. What he found out is that if a pendulums swing were interrupted, the weight would not lose momentum.
And with the stop that Jerry mentioned, I did something once where I found out a weight on a short lever can have a pretty good recoil.
What I am wondering is if the movement of the lever the 2 pendulums are on can be increased. You know, made to move faster.


                                                          Jim

hello. i'm new in here, so if i say something idiotic please be gentle
anyhow.. interesting concept.

the penulum will swing faster if shorter distance from axle, but would mess up the dynamics of this interesting arrangement.
it looks like it just might work, but realise that every extra pendulum you add is making extra resistance too. and the counter-balancing weight would need to be just right or it would slow it down fast.

nice work. hey, you folks in here are rather clever. i like it.
and i do think it might work if you could produce more momentum than resistance caused by friction.
-wayne

[mr_bojangles]

correct, every  added is more friction


however, because this works in half steps, meaning we only have to add enough energy to overcome friction from one

lets say we release it at 45* on the right ride, and it only swings up to 40* on the other side

because there are two pendulums, it works out to be equal to 2(x, [mass]), a distance of 10*, or 1(x) a distance of 20*

the relationship between my system means that if we allow our lever to osciallate between 20*, it will have recouped all losses

however if we allow it to rotate 25*, we have now gained 5* and can be considered excess energy


a super simple solution to making it more efficient, is to make the height of the pendulum the same as the lever, but have the length of the rod/rope be twice that of the lever

in this way, we get the same  ratio, but out output torque is increase due to distance, and if we use the same weight, while its a further distance, at only a 45* we can limit the friction loss to most likely less than 4 degrees

meaning if in fact we can achieve a pendulum that loses only 2* for one swing starting at 45*, we could see overunity with the lever oscillating at 20*

[mr_bojangles]

so if our lever is 2m long, and we are releasing our  at 45*, for simplicity sake, i made used the 45* angle as an interior angle and Pythagorean theorum showed me that the length of the hypotenuse would be about 5.67 m

this way, the position of the first counterweight is 3m away, the second being 5m

the drawing shoes in red the 4' x 4' triangle used to obtain the desirable pendulum length

x(weight of counterweight)= 1 N
our output is now giving a torque of (1 N)(3 m) + (1 N)(5 m) giving us 8 Nm

assuming we lose 5* per single , that gives us 10* distance for 2 N

we also know the distance is the height of the pendulum, being around 5.67 m



so  (2n)(5.67 m) = about 11.314 Nm

how could this possibly be overunity?

well, this implies that the lever is only moving 10*

however, i am going to put a gear on it, which means i can go twice the distance with half the weight


how can this help?

if i attach a gear to my lever, i will attach another lever to the pendulum that is half as big

now my output weight has been halved, as well as the distance of my lever has now been doubled to 20*

in doing so, i now have (2 N)( 2.83 m) = 5.67 Nm


Input 5.67 Nm
Output 8 Nm


did i do something wrong or is this really what i think it is??