pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?

[tbird]

hi ntesla,

good to see there is at least one out there with enough time and interest to reply here.

i hope e2matrix is reading this.  maybe now he can, for now, come back too and look for another reason for this machine to not work.

i do have 1 question for you about the neutral effect.  does it have the same feel for another piece of ferrite material as another magnet?  i would think the shielding (i'll use it to keep things simple) thickness wouldn't have to be as exact for ferrite material as a magnet since there won't be any attraction between the 2 ferrite materials (as long as the shield isn't saturated).  of course you would want to use as little material for shielding as possible so the space between the rotor block and stator will be as small as possible.

am i thinking clear here?

tom


edit..  i should add lwh to this "come back too" list since he had a comment about the shielding too.

[NTesla]

hi ntesla,

good to see there is at least one out there with enough time and interest to reply here.

i hope e2matrix is reading this.  maybe now he can, for now, come back too and look for another reason for this machine to not work.

i do have 1 question for you about the neutral effect.  does it have the same feel for another piece of ferrite material as another magnet?  i would think the shielding (i'll use it to keep things simple) thickness wouldn't have to be as exact for ferrite material as a magnet since there won't be any attraction between the 2 ferrite materials (as long as the shield isn't saturated).  of course you would want to use as little material for shielding as possible so the space between the rotor block and stator will be as small as possible.

am i thinking clear here?

tom


edit..  i should add lwh to this "come back too" list since he had a comment about the shielding too.

I am not sure what you mean by "another piece of ferrite material". The effect works because you have two magnets with the same poles opposing each other e.g S to S but the ferrite material in between the magnets will always be attracted to BOTH poles. My experiments were based on having one magnet and the ferrite material as the stator and the other magnet as part of the rotor.

The combination of ferrite thickness, its ferromagnetic properties, in relation to the strength of the magnets needs to be taken into account. Therefore the distance between the the rotor magnet and ferrite material at 'neutral' will be dependent on the above factors.

The potential here (my experiments were not scientific but I think they merit more investigation!) is that you can use the ferrite material of the stator - at distance - for attraction and then transition to repulsion once the rotor magnet gets close enough to the other magnet. The neutral point means, unlike the transitioning from one pole to the other of a magnet, there is no force (i.e 'sticking point') you need to overcome.

Have I built a working motor that demonstrates this idea as workable? No - but I have confirmed the effect using a ferrite block and some magnets.

[lwh]

Tbird, it seems to me you know what effect is required to make the design in the patent you referred to, work.  So get some magnets and some 'shielding' and see if you can create the required effect.  You don't have to build the whole device first, just prove the practicality of the key effect/s that would make it run.

I don't really have anything further to add, as besides not being knowledgeable enough in these matters, I'm not really interested in theoretical discussions about what may or may not work. 

However  

Shielding in general, the neutral-point phenomena just recently mentioned, the Radus/Hildenbrand magnetic field amplification effect, other phenomena I've forgotten the name of; they can all be used to overcome the sticky spot and create an overunity device.  Theoretically.  But to actually do it for real is not that easy.  These things require intricate placements of materials and timing of reactions far beyond what can be readily measured.  Tools don't even exist to measure some of the interactions taking place.  And depending on what it is you think you know, you can't even rely on your intuition, when counter-intuitive actions are required.  Add to that all the human complications, including laziness, fear of failure, fear of success, lack of access to adequate time and resources, and more, and even the most valid theory can be prevented from being put into practice.  But, again, that's what it takes.  Despite all the odds against it, despite all the complications and reasons not to.  At some point someone, somewhere, has to get their hands dirty and make the tangible device that utilizes these effects.  As, I believe, has been done, more than once.  Everything else is just talk though.  Including this, so...   

[tbird]

hello lwh,

i guess you are right.  no need to ask first if anybody has experience or can see a theoretical problem with this patent.  guess i'll get my checkbook out and dingy ashore to the nearest machine shop and see what they can build.  i really should have just done that in the first place.  THANKS for the advice!!

tom

[lwh]

It made sense to ask here about the design.  It just turns out no-one's tried it or is interested.  Shit happens. 

As far as seeing what the nearest maching shop can build, I wouldn't bother.  They can build whatever they've got the tools to build, and what they're not equipped to make, some other place will be.  But none of them can be expected to help you figure out what it is you want them to make.  All they want is your money and a clear diagram to follow.  Though even then they might knock back your custom if they think what you're asking looks like it'd be more trouble than it's worth.

It's all just my opinion, but I think your best bet is to literally get two magnets and put some shielding between them and see if you can get them to behave in a way that might allow them to be used in a design like the one in that patent you found.  Then, if there's something there that you think might be useful, redesign the patented machine to suit your available materials and make, or get made, some parts to do further testing with.  Then, if you still think it'll work, make or get made the parts for the whole thing, put it together and see what happens.  But, first and foremost, if you can't get a decent shielding effect to start off with, forget it.

Remember too that just because something works on paper doesn't mean it'll work for real.  That patent, or any other design, might be logically flawless and critic proof, but that doesn't necessarily mean it'll work when actually built.  Some designs are like those Escher drawings where water flows quite believeably uphill, only it's harder to tell what the actual illusion is.

Hope this helps.  I'm not trying to discourage you, but I don't want to encourage you to waste your time or money either.

By the way, what's your opinion on the Torbay device?  From how you've described the device in the patent you found, if the shielding worked, I get the impression it'd be working in a similar fashion to the Torbay device, wherein it's in a perpetual state of disequilibrium, forever falling into a gap between the moving magnets.  I ask this because I'm a bit critical of those sort of designs, to the point where I really doubt they can work, and I was wondering if you've thought about that aspect of the design.