Hi,
I have attached a drawing, free of use. I cannot imagine how the forces are distributed, but at the first look, it looks like a working magnet motor.
The questions I cannot answer are how forces A, B, C, and D, are, and what energy (force * distance) they are capable of taking and giving in a closed loop.
I would say that force A and B are zero - which means it does not take energy to exit or enter the magnetic shield. Force C are definetly positive because the magnets are able to escape from eachother.
What about force D?
Vidar
I may not be clear on what you have here but from what I see it does not appear it would move at all. What it appears you have setup is magnets N on top or facing view and S on bottom or vice versa as it is not relevant but what I see is they are all in repel mode? Which means the ones exiting will have some push but no more than the ones trying to enter the gate.
Quote from: e2matrix on February 22, 2011, 10:51:48 PM
I may not be clear on what you have here but from what I see it does not appear it would move at all. What it appears you have setup is magnets N on top or facing view and S on bottom or vice versa as it is not relevant but what I see is they are all in repel mode? Which means the ones exiting will have some push but no more than the ones trying to enter the gate.
They are all in repel mode per configuration. The idea, however, is to use a magnetic guide to guide the repelling flux away from repelling mode when the magnets are suppose to "zip" together on the left side - like a zipper - so there is less energy required to zip the magnets together, than the energy (hopefully) gained when the separate in open air.
Once the magnets are aligned as a pseudo solid magnet bar inside the magnetic guide/shield, the idea is then to separate them where there is no shield, so they repel eachother. The repelling forces which is held back by the guides, are acting angular to the movement, and will not contribute to neither accelerate or stop the motion.
Just an idea.
Vidar
What's up Low-Q.
You used to be very sceptic of magnetic motors.
Always 100% convinced they could never work as magnetism is absolutely conservative!
Now you spit out new magmotor ideas like tommy gun bullets.....
Yet you know it wont work!
Why this change in behavior?
Did someone else take over your nickname....or what?
It takes one well designed build to prove all these derivatives.
Low-Q
This is an excellent design! It seems it may avoid all the usual entry and exit problems.
This should still work even if simple cylinder magnets were used by interlacing them between each other as they zip together. The possible issue could be an increased draw to the iron because of the tighter field of the interlaced magnets. (need to test this)
Quote from: FatChance!!! on February 23, 2011, 06:38:24 AM
What's up Low-Q.
You used to be very sceptic of magnetic motors.
Always 100% convinced they could never work as magnetism is absolutely conservative!
Now you spit out new magmotor ideas like tommy gun bullets.....
Yet you know it wont work!
Why this change in behavior?
Did someone else take over your nickname....or what?
What's up? Well, I will allways try, even if everyone tells me, or experiments this far tells me, that magnet motors are conservative, and will not work. I just try to find a design I cannot fully understand why it will not work. I also like to contribute with ideas which might be helpful to learn magnetic behaviour uder various conditions. And maybe some day I will be prooved wrong about how conservative magnets REALLY are, and under what conditions this it true - and not true. There is no identity theft here, no, it's me - Low-Q (Vidar) - full of surprises :)
More ideas to come ;D
Quote from: lumen on February 23, 2011, 12:16:29 PM
Low-Q
This is an excellent design! It seems it may avoid all the usual entry and exit problems.
This should still work even if simple cylinder magnets were used by interlacing them between each other as they zip together. The possible issue could be an increased draw to the iron because of the tighter field of the interlaced magnets. (need to test this)
From my point of view this motor will work beyond doubt, because I cannot see the break here. However, from the magnets point of view, it might be another story...
Cylinder magnets should do. I made triangle magnets so they could fit better as a pseudo solid bar, and at the same time was able to separate easily.
Vidar
Quote from: Low-Q on February 24, 2011, 07:53:20 AM
However, from the magnets point of view, it might be another story...
Hehehehe!!! Good reply... ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: FatChance!!! on February 24, 2011, 08:44:49 AM
Hehehehe!!! Good reply... ;D ;D ;D
It would be so easy, just asking a magnet what it is capable of, what it cannot do etc. So we have to ask a magnet with experience, a really old magnet. I bet they are laughing about us idiots trying to understand them :)
I made a very simplified design of the zipper-motor. The picture tells the story.
Any input are welcome :)
Sorry guys but once you close the loop, you end up with a single magnetic field. As a matter of fact, the closer you get to closing the loop, you will find that you lose more and more of the effect you are hoping for.
With magnets, you have to have a unbalanced equation which I have found to be impossible to produce unless a outside power source is introduced. The problem with using the outside source is that the movement created will not create enough of the outside sources energy to continue the movement by it's self. Some have claimed to have but none have been proven to work.
Quote from: nightlife on March 03, 2011, 07:46:51 PM
Sorry guys but once you close the loop, you end up with a single magnetic field. As a matter of fact, the closer you get to closing the loop, you will find that you lose more and more of the effect you are hoping for.
With magnets, you have to have a unbalanced equation which I have found to be impossible to produce unless a outside power source is introduced. The problem with using the outside source is that the movement created will not create enough of the outside sources energy to continue the movement by it's self. Some have claimed to have but none have been proven to work.
This motor uses an outside movement source with an unbalanced equation. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obOezFhbO9s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obOezFhbO9s) It starts and runs quite well.
Vidar,
I wonder if the gear teeth have any effect on the theory of operation. Consider if the rings you show were simply ring magnets, would the effect not be the same?
I have been testing the simulation below for any gain in the idea of magnets entering while separated, then exiting in a single row and as we know, magnets close together cause a stronger pull that may cancel any perceived gain. The shape of the magnets may be important as thinner magnets exiting in single file may not increase in pull when exiting.
The simulation takes several hours to run for every position so it will take some time. I have also reduced the idea into a simpler setup to measure the working principal and it seems to follow something close to this when using cylinder magnets.
Pull in of single spaced magnets is X1
Pull of stacked magnets on exit is X1.5
Gain of magnets separating is about X2
The simulation seems to indicate the gain (X3) could be about two times the losses (X1.5).
@lumen: Thanks for sharing your thaughts. Your drawing also proves it is quite simple to test this with "scrapyard" items and a few small magnets.
What we already know is that equal poles repel. That said, in the presence of a magnetic material, it will require less force to push equal poles together as proved by simulations and by pracical experiments. Because the magnetic field finds an easier path to close its own magnetism.
Further, the magnetic field will go from being spread equally in all direction for each magnet, into be aligned parallell, and angular to the movement direction as the magnets are being aligned as a pseudo solid magnet bar. Parallell magnetic fields which is angular to a magnetic object will not be attracted to it and would therfor escape the shield without drag. So it is VERY important that the array of magnets are pseudo solid - at least in the moment the magnets escapes the shield.
After a given distance from the magnetic material, the pseudo solid magnet bar will be forced to separate into descrete magnetic elements because the field wants to distribute the field in all directions again. So as long a magnet see the opportunity to escape from another magnet, it will do so, and force movement.
The question I have asked myself recently is whether or not the magnetic repulsion are radially to the magnet path when it turns in a circle, in order to repeat the cycle and close the mechanical loop.
If the force are radial, there will be no force to start rotation or movement, because a radial force will always be angular to the tangent of the circular path.
So I think it is at least worth trying to simulate this with "3D magnetic software" in order to come closer to the truth.
Vidar
Quote from: nightlife on March 03, 2011, 07:46:51 PM
Sorry guys but once you close the loop, you end up with a single magnetic field. As a matter of fact, the closer you get to closing the loop, you will find that you lose more and more of the effect you are hoping for.
With magnets, you have to have a unbalanced equation which I have found to be impossible to produce unless a outside power source is introduced. The problem with using the outside source is that the movement created will not create enough of the outside sources energy to continue the movement by it's self. Some have claimed to have but none have been proven to work.
I would say this is true for a uniform donut magnet. In my example, there will be surfaces which will interact with eachother with magnetic fields which is not pure radial to the round magnets. Therfor the magnetic interaction will be very different compared to a uniform and radially aligned magnetic field.
In any rational thinking, and science, a magnet is conservative, an cannot do work without external input. This is true. My point is to use my (prelimenary) knowledge about magnetic behaviour, and use this to come up with ideas on how to alter the magnetic properties without violate the "conservativism" in the total magnetic field. Let me explane this by altering the flux path in a way so the magnet behaviour differ in two different spaces. No voalation of the conservative magnetic field, but using a magnetic material to assist alignment of the magnetic field in the way I want. When aligned as a pseudo solid magnet bar, it will be able to stay conservative with respect to the new parallell field path, due to the pseudo solid alignment itself. Therfor it will no longer require force to escape the magnetic material. All the magnets as aligned in such a way, will still be forced apart angulary to the movement, but we do not allow them to separate mechanicly untill we let them. Right at this point of separation, there is what I hope the gain will hide, and be released on demand to force movement.
Vidar
Hello,
I have done some simulations with round magnets. The simulation are as far as I can understand an equivalent to what we can expect to happen in a design as shown in my first post. The triangle magnets are however replaced with round ones.
I was afraid the forces would act angular or radial to the movement of the magnets. That does not happen. So the forces will push the magnet array in a direction which will finally make a running system. There is no counterforce that will act in opposite direction - only forward force.
This simulation is just a simulation, and it is not made in 3D. The results however are interesting enough to investigate further in a practical model. I just have to figure out how to build it.
I have lots of small disc magnets I want to glue on a two CDs. This will be a pure rotary motor, and not as shown in my initial post. I have no other options than trying this first. It will look more like my last tooth-gear design. The round magnets are spaced so they can mesh into eachother to make a pseudo solid magnet where they exit the shield.
With small kids and a wife, I cannot expect to finish this build in a while, but I will do my best to finish one.
Vidar
You might want to check out Helmut Goebkes device:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3979.0
Also, something called the Bowman motor.
I have done experiments with such design, and also simulated on it. Where it is an attraction zone, this zone will be the area of equilibrium. Magnets does not want to enter a repelling area, nor escape from an attraction zone.
A pseudo solid magnet are neutral in its direction of movement, and feels no attraction or repulsion. Therfor it is important to let the magnetic field be distributed only angular to its direction of movement in order to escape the attraction zone at the end of the shield.
Helmuts design have several magnets spaced apart. This space is a problem because the magnets can "look ahead" and "look behind" to what is repelling or attracive areas. The magnets aligned as pseudo solid will not be able to "see" anything but what is on the left and right side of them, and therfor they will not be able to feel attraction or repulsion in the direction of movement. A pseudo solid alignment is, as far as I can see, the only way to enter a possible repelling area without being counterforced.
Vidar
If your are going to force magnets into repulsion, then you must use grade SH or better.
Regular 80 degree neos will get depleted rather quickly when forced into repel.
But this will not happen with grade SH or better. They are extremely resistant to demagnetization.
Quote from: FatChance!!! on March 10, 2011, 03:06:39 AM
If your are going to force magnets into repulsion, then you must use grade SH or better.
Regular 80 degree neos will get depleted rather quickly when forced into repel.
But this will not happen with grade SH or better. They are extremely resistant to demagnetization.
You have an important point. However, the magnets will not demagnetize when they are aligned with S N vertically on axis, and placed side by side (See my illustarions earlier in this thread). This alignment will only extend the size of the magnet when they are placed tight together, and not cancel out magnetism..
Also, the attraction mode can also be used, but that will reverse rotation (Well, if it works in repelling mode).
Vidar
So when do you expect to have an early prototype up running?
Or perhaps part of the design showing if the idea is valid enough for a complete build?
Quote from: FatChance!!! on March 10, 2011, 09:27:18 AM
So when do you expect to have an early prototype up running?
Or perhaps part of the design showing if the idea is valid enough for a complete build?
Hmmm, I must admit that it is quite temting to try building one. I have a bunch of small square ferrite magnets. They are not very strong, but very cheap, and probably good enough for a prototype. Weak magnets are also easier to handle - especially with respect to the magnetic shielding. A bunch of N50 neomagnets would probably make everything collaps ;D.
I will see what I can use to build a prototype, but don't hold your breath. I have also been discussing with Butch several possible ways to use the pseudo solid concept in other fashions to simplify the final design as much as possible. Butch have the guts to try everything, so it is interesting to see his new videos and what he is capable of testing and build.
Vidar
Quote from: lumen on February 23, 2011, 12:16:29 PM
Low-Q
This is an excellent design! It seems it may avoid all the usual entry and exit problems.
This should still work even if simple cylinder magnets were used by interlacing them between each other as they zip together. The possible issue could be an increased draw to the iron because of the tighter field of the interlaced magnets. (need to test this)
Just want to comment the drag issue.
Cylindrical magnets will not create a uniform bar when aligned as pseudo solid. This wil increase the influence with the shield when the magnets exit. However, the main consept is to let the majority of flux to be distributed angular to the movement when they exit the shield.
Try this place for custom made magnets. I've only had positive experiences when dealing with them.
http://www.magnesy.eu/magnesy_stale-g0-230.html
Making custom shapes should be pretty cheap using ferrite magnets.
Send them an accurate drawing and quantity of your needs and they will quote you a price for free.
magnesy@magnesy.pl
Quote from: FatChance!!! on March 11, 2011, 06:54:41 AM
Try this place for custom made magnets. I've only had positive experiences when dealing with them.
http://www.magnesy.eu/magnesy_stale-g0-230.html
Making custom shapes should be pretty cheap using ferrite magnets.
Send them an accurate drawing and quantity of your needs and they will quote you a price for free.
magnesy@magnesy.pl
Thanks. I will try them.
There is so many ideas to post...
I made a few changes in the initial design.
I am not sure how this will work, but instead of using shields of iron, why don't use shields made of magnets? The two rotor magnets on the left side grab the magnetic field from the triangle magnets so they can mechanicly align as a pseudo solid magnet.
The two rotor magnets on the right side push the magnetic field outwards and force magnetism from each triangle magnets into powerful repulsion mode.
Vidar