The second game changer is here:
http://www.virtual-strategy.com/2012/02/08/phillips-announces-worlds-best-catalyst-producing-hydrogen-fuel-water (http://www.virtual-strategy.com/2012/02/08/phillips-announces-worlds-best-catalyst-producing-hydrogen-fuel-water)
http://www.phillipscompany.4t.com/HYDROGEN.html (http://www.phillipscompany.4t.com/HYDROGEN.html)
My friends, 2012 indeed seems to be a magic year :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
Gwandau
It's probably good to note this is not the same famous dutch Philips company everyone probably knows, this one is called Phillips. Also there's more info and some pdf's on this site:
http://www.phillipscompany.4t.com/HYDROGEN.html (http://www.phillipscompany.4t.com/HYDROGEN.html)
Basically it comes down to using their "specially" activated carbon as the catalyst, some fine aluminum powder as fuel and water preheated to around 80°C.
They say their activated powder is not the same as the ones you can get from other companiesk, I say it's worth a try :P . However you can email them to get some samples.
Anyone with some AC willing to give it a go?
http://www.phillipscompany.4t.com/FT.pdf (http://www.phillipscompany.4t.com/FT.pdf)
I find the setups funny and very DIYish. Seems like a garage inventor.
Since they discovered this process by accident when working with catalytic carbon in their chemical laboratory, they must have started with qualities of CC already in the market.
CC just does what it is meant to do, being a catalyzer and to activate the CC even further doesn't sound impossible.
Also, a well known catalyst enhancer is ultra sound.
The only reason for aluminum is to capture the oxygen freed in the process, thus being
able to produce hydrogen only.
Seems like a quite feasible project to evaluate the validity of this claim long before
Phillips will reach the market with a functional Hydrogen generator.
Gwandau
Quote from: Gwandau on February 09, 2012, 06:17:42 AM
Seems like a quite feasible project to evaluate the validity of this claim long before
Phillips will reach the market with a functional Hydrogen generator.
Gwandau
According to my understanding that's not their/his plan. They just want to license the tech. Or rather license the way the CC is made. However this is one of those "chinese will copy it and sell it for much cheaper" techs.
Quote from: broli on February 09, 2012, 06:38:12 AM
According to my understanding that's not their/his plan. They just want to license the tech. Or rather license the way the CC is made. However this is one of those "chinese will copy it and sell it for much cheaper" techs.
Well that's quite a strange choice, since if you have found a way to create excess amounts of
hydrogen why don't they make a product were this is implemented? I mean, just introducing a propane type engine running on water would be a revolution and make Phillips a very wealthy company in a few years.
Gwandau
Quote from: Gwandau on February 09, 2012, 06:17:42 AM
Since they discovered this process by accident when working with catalytic carbon in their chemical laboratory, they must have started with qualities of CC already in the market.
CC just does what it is meant to do, being a catalyzer and to activate the CC even further doesn't sound impossible.
Also, a well known catalyst enhancer is ultra sound.
The only reason for aluminum is to capture the oxygen freed in the process, thus being
able to produce hydrogen only.
Seems like a quite feasible project to evaluate the validity of this claim long before
Phillips will reach the market with a functional Hydrogen generator.
Gwandau
Funny i should find this, this morning after I ran my carbon cell last night. Although I lack a base line conductivity test, after i ran my cell for one hour on each batch of 3 teaspoons of potash per gallon of distilled water. the second I diluted by half twice. After all was said and done both batches were blackened from the carbon soot that is released from the carbon eroding during the electrolysis process. So I measured the conductivity of the electrolyte, What i found supported my hypothesis. The carbon ash or whatever it is released into the water was increasing the conductivity of the water. My first batch measured 260 ohms on the 2000K ohms scale, then the second batch which had been diluted twice by half, was reading 120ohms on the same scale.
So even if carbon were out as an electrode its helping to make my electrolyte cleaner, and more conductive.
I noticed that even after diluting the electrolyte down to 10 amps while it was running, it would quickly climb right back up to 30 to 40 amps. I'm sure the heat produced (enough to lightly sting the fingers) about 120 degree or so, was contributing, but it was not the only contributor.
So carbon powder may be a safer and more efficient add in to make electrolyte. Then place that in a titanium cell and watch the reaction.
The trick is titanium doesnt like to be in the anodes position, but loves the cathode. So what would be a good replacement for the anode?
Goes to figure after three years worth of research someone beats me to the punch on this. LOL
My theory is since carbon is a very reactive (electrically) element, these small particles are making a daisy chain of electrical conductivity that each produce gas. This larger amount of bubbles coalesce into larger bubbles, and make less foam, and bubbles left in suspension.
This carbon emulsion is easy to get, its heavier than water and separates after a night of sitting. a drain and a low point would lead to large quatities being collected as a by product. So in essence my carbon cell may become a mother cell that makes the electrolyte for other cells, as its by product.
The biggest problem i see with this, is its a chemical reaction, driven by heat. So whats to stop it? For the stop and go world of the automobile, as well as home heating, to even a torch this is a step in the right direction, but I think it needs more control. Having worked in composites, thermal runaway is a scary thing. As well as a hydrogen plant in your car that would keep making gas, while your in shopping. Could be a bad thing....
Whilst this technology is new and exciting, there is a downside to it that nobody seems to have spotted. I do not wish to urinate on anyone`s bonfire. So what is claimed is that we can split water with very little energy input, and get large amounts of energy out . However during the process , aluminium is consumed and turned into aluminium hydroxide. Yes, the hydroxide can be recycled back to aluminium, but to do this, consumes large amounts of energy. The production of 1 Kg of aluminium uses 12 to 15 Kilowatts of electricity, and is usually only done in countries which have so much hydro power that they do not know what else to do with it.
So your hydrogen powered car actually runs on aluminium. The good news would be that the cost of aluminium scrap would rise exponentially, and beer and coke cans littering our streets would become a thing of the past .
IT WOULD DRIVE UP THE COST OF BEER! :o :o
No I agree, this isnt the answer, plus an unbridled chemical reaction with any way to shut it down can be damn dangerous,
I think Phillips has been reading the posts on here concerning this supposed accidental discovery. Too much coincidence for me. I have just started but where exactly is the use of aluminum been recently mentioned as either the anode or cathode of choice? We can only hope that the amount of Aluminum thrown in the dumps will be reduced, I have been recycling as much as I can for a longtime. Should I start keeping it till the price goes up?
I was reading on the blogs how one the best Cathode materials to use is titanium, maybe with all of the Carbon particulate in the solution the electrolyte solution will become the anode more or less.
& To stop the H gas production why not just shut off the power to the cell or in extreme cases have a drain plug to dump the electrolyte solution from anodes quickly and shut power at same time?
God Bless & Keep up the good work y'all!
Quote from: WorldPeace on April 23, 2012, 01:09:20 AM
I think Phillips has been reading the posts on here concerning this supposed accidental discovery. Too much coincidence for me. I have just started but where exactly is the use of aluminum been recently mentioned as either the anode or cathode of choice? We can only hope that the amount of Aluminum thrown in the dumps will be reduced, I have been recycling as much as I can for a longtime. Should I start keeping it till the price goes up?
I was reading on the blogs how one the best Cathode materials to use is titanium, maybe with all of the Carbon particulate in the solution the electrolyte solution will become the anode more or less.
& To stop the H gas production why not just shut off the power to the cell or in extreme cases have a drain plug to dump the electrolyte solution from anodes quickly and shut power at same time?
God Bless & Keep up the good work y'all!
Yes, aluminum sucks on both sides of the cell. In one position it reacts almost violently, in the other it acts like a 10KW diode and stops anything from happening at all.
Aluminum, as Ive been told, is one of the worst metals to use due to its manufacturing costs, and by products such as flouride (poisonous in pure form).
Titanium is just like aluminum except as the cathode its wonderful, no erosion at all with great production. But as the anode, it stops all production.
The carbon precipitant in my cell works very well as a conductivity catalyst. However, I fear without a PWM, my cell would melt down as the amps would either run out of control, or blow my very expensive power supply rated high enough to start a car.
But the carbonized electrolyte I dont think would work as a stand alone it would still need an anode.
The problem with this (major break through) reaction cell, is its a chemical reaction, not electrolysis. As I understand what I read, the electrical part is only used to heat the cell, where then the reaction takes off, and it will not stop until the heat drops back down. The problem is you can get thermolytic runaway. This is not only dangerous, its scary as hell.
Using aluminum, and carbon electrodes would produce massively, however, it wouldn't last long. Especially if like in my cell where the carbon is adding to the electrolytes conductivity, the amps would run out of control.
Though this works, what Ive read thus far on it, worries me, that once started it cannot be shut down. Now if I missed something, and this IS an electrolysis device, and the aluminum and carbon are just additives then great. Find a stable non poisonous anode, with a titanium cathode, and dump in the electrolyte with the carbon and aluminum and let her rip. However, My personal tests have shown you get plenty of reaction with carbon in the electrolyte, without the need to recycle aluminum waste afterward. After only one hour of runs my electrolytes resistance dropped by 126 ohms just from carbon in the electrolyte (even after diluting it by half twice to keep the amps down).
One really needs to think the process being advertised through
carefully because something can be a good deal for somebody
but may not be what we are looking for. At least these guys
describe what is being occuring fully. Very often an article
describes a new chemical catalyst then promptly doesn't give
the chemical equations so you can figure whether it is a good
deal for you to use or not.
What *we* want is catalyst that can split hydrogen from water
at any rate fast or slow but without having any waste products
and returns the catalyst at room temperatures. No waste products
probably implies that both hydrogen and oxygen gas both come out
of solution as gases. Generally a catalyst will wear-out or become
contaminated and needs to be replaced. So it would require a number
of cycles to be analysed this number might be changed if we commit
to filtering inputs or boosting the purity of the reactants.
The process they are advertizing runs fast, but you need to
be ready to reprocess the aluminum hydroxide back into aluminum
metal in your equipment to get back to starting point. What you
save is having to store bulk hydrogen as a gas or having to
sequester it into a bulk metal matrix. But what it cost you is having
to carry one aluminum atom per n x hydrogen atoms around...
not something you want to do in a vehicle, but maybe OK in fixed
equipment applications.
Most likely an additional H needs to added to the AlOH + energy to give
Al + H2O so that is where the hydrogen gas comes into play. Another thing
that you could do is if you have a process that needs AlOH as a feedstock -
is you will already have it. So it depends on whether to you AlOH is feedstock
vs whether it is a waste product.
What they give you is ability to not have the hydrogen creation step
be rate limited by the catalyst which means you can design both halves
of process this to have the same variable size.
:S:MarkSCoffman
The only process i can think of that uses aluminium as a feedstock, is the production of aluminium itself , and that requires a large input of energy, 12 to 15 Kw hours per Kilogram. The advantage of aluminium as a fuel, or as a way of storing energy, is that you can thus run your car on Hydro power, or any other electrical source. Another way to do the same thing is to use an aluminium-air battery, but this new way may be cheaper, and/or greener.
Quote from: neptune on April 22, 2012, 04:27:20 PM
Whilst this technology is new and exciting, there is a downside to it that nobody seems to have spotted....
;)
Don't bet on it.
I'm glad you've nail it down. I was too tired of 'bad posts' at that time and also a bit curious to let it flow and see who's going to point at it.
And yes, now we have an answer to my curiosity. See... how emotionally this free energy stuff gets?!!! Nonetheless, I'd still like, despite being a man, thinking with my upper head. ;)
Hopefully nobody put real money into this low-level scam. It's bare Al+NaOH reaction all along but fancy presented. Nothing more. Aaaa... my bad, there is something more: an unnecessary catalyst.
Best regards,
Tinu
Quote from: tinu on April 23, 2012, 03:32:07 PM
;)
Don't bet on it.
I'm glad you've nail it down. I was too tired of 'bad posts' at that time and also a bit curious to let it flow and see who's going to point at it.
And yes, now we have an answer to my curiosity. See... how emotionally this free energy stuff gets?!!! Nonetheless, I'd still like, despite being a man, thinking with my upper head. ;)
Hopefully nobody put real money into this low-level scam. It's bare Al+NaOH reaction all along but fancy presented. Nothing more. Aaaa... my bad, there is something more: an unnecessary catalyst.
Best regards,
Tinu
I think you both nailed it! ;D
I wonder if there is any fruit though in adding non alkali, or acidic catalysts to the water. So at least some of this idea might spring new trains of thought.
Quote from: tinu on April 23, 2012, 03:32:07 PM
;)
Don't bet on it.
I'm glad you've nail it down. I was too tired of 'bad posts' at that time and also a bit curious to let it flow and see who's going to point at it.
And yes, now we have an answer to my curiosity. See... how emotionally this free energy stuff gets?!!! Nonetheless, I'd still like, despite being a man, thinking with my upper head. ;)
Hopefully nobody put real money into this low-level scam. It's bare Al+NaOH reaction all along but fancy presented. Nothing more. Aaaa... my bad, there is something more: an unnecessary catalyst.
Best regards,
Tinu
Al+NaOH reaction ??? ?? tinu, you are really barking up the wrong tree.
Where on earth did you get the NaOH from. It's nothing but distilled water, aluminum and catalytic coal heated.
Are you a troll, or just having not read the Phillips papers?
For the sake of a fair evaluation, whe have to give these guys a chance before screaming scam.
So many new inventions are mushrooming these days that it is just as easy to succumb to scepticism as to unfounded optimism.
But if we have no hard core proof in any direction, we have to stay with : Is that so?
2012 is a very special year, a paradigm changer in human consciousness, and many strange things have started surfacing,
not only on the scientific arena, but as well politically, economically and socially.
It's a race between the white and the golden horse, as the Hopi describes it.
Which side are you on?
Gwandau
I forgot who said it.
The only measure between insanity and genius is success.
This idea got me thinking.
I have carbon precipitation in my electrolyte. So I thought perhaps using an aluminum plate as the anode which normally acts like a diode and stops all production might react. So if this guy is getting a chemical reaction from this, the aluminum as the anode might react with the carbon in the electrolyte to produce gas.
So I taped up a quick 1/8" gap with a titanium scrap piece, and a piece of 7075-T6 aluminum plate. ran 12VDC 2 amps though it, and it started to produce gas, very minor bubbles, definitely nothing to get excited about. But what it did do surprised me. It only created bubbles on the cathode. There wasn't a single bubble on the aluminum anode what so ever. The bubbles were leaving the electrode, but the reaction wasn't great. My electrolyte was also cold, so once warmed up it might be a much better reaction, and it looks to only create hydrogen, without releasing oxygen.
Thoughts?
Hello Ydeardorff,
Is your aluminum electrode changing color or texture? It is most likely oxidizing because the oxygen has to go somewhere. You should see the electrode physically change in some way.
Thanks for posting your results.
RR2
After 30 minutes, of run time I couldn't see any change in the electrode at all. No pitting, no discoloration. It was perfectly clean and shiny.
Only bubbles collected on the cathode, and a few released, but most just built up on the electrode itself, and just stayed there.
So like I said, it was interesting, but not really very productive. But there are too many variables left unknown as to why, and what would make it work better, or worse.
I was under the impression you couldn't liberate H with out an O being liberated too. I am using potash for my electrolyte. Perhaps the O stays suspended in the solution?
Another train of thought might be, with the carbon in solution that I was in fact making methane, rather than hydrogen. since if 4 hydrogen atoms attach to one carbon it makes methane. Or perhaps the K2CO3 was being reduced somehow splitting the CO3 into CO2, and CO?
Quote from: broli on February 09, 2012, 03:59:10 AM
Basically it comes down to using their "specially" activated carbon as the catalyst, some fine aluminum powder as fuel and water preheated to around 80°C.
Oh that's just great, yet another expensive additive that you must add... Stan Meyer already came up with the reasons why NOT to use additives.. it defies economic laws. Using additives is a no-go... just say no to additives.. PLEASE!
Dielectric breakdown and avalanche effect is the way to go! Molecular spin is energy, as movement of a molecule is WORK performed!
Info is available about Stan Meyer physics and capacitance theory here:
http://www.youtube.com/user/canufi (http://www.youtube.com/user/canufi)
I think the cost involved in using up the Aluminium powder and the byproducts of this
just chemical reaction kills this process for clean energy production.
Also is this really coming from Philips ?
Regards, Stefan.
Stefan,
No it's from Phillips with two "l", a pharmaceutical manufacturing company in Oklahoma, and the fault is all mine by initially giving the wrong impression.
Sorry about that. Below is a link to their homepage.
http://www.phillipscompany.4t.com/index.html (http://www.phillipscompany.4t.com/index.html)
Gwandau