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Hi,
here is a real new great magnet Video setup for a working SMOT ramp
with a big rollaway from Tom Ferko:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6531588179303444480

Here is a photo of his best track:

He wrote on the yahoogroup:

Hi All,

I am right now getting things together to make a movie clip of this
track with the runner magnet in motion on a level surface. It will be
an eye opener.

I stated previously that my ceramic runner donut ring magnet was 5
pounds. I estimated incorrectly. Today I actually weighed it and it was
7 pounds.

I found I could roll it with the track as illustrated in the "FILES"
section a distance of 4.5 feet.

If you place stacked neodymium cylinder or rod magnets for your rail
poles as shown you can easily duplicate this "STAGGERED" track
yourself. Big things to remember are to use a large heavy donut ceramic
ring magnet as your runner magnet. It will not twist and turn easily.

Most importantly the runner magnet runs up the "center" between
both "staggered" rail pole sections. The rail poles NEVER touch the
runner magnet at all. The angle the rail poles are positioned from the
sides of the runner magnet is critical. To close in from the
tracks "START" and the runner will not move at all or worse yet the
runner magnet will have to be forced onto the track to move. To far
away and the runner wont move. At some specific pole angle the runner
can be placed by two fingers onto the track and it will start rolling
on its own.

This is very important or your track will not work at all. For every 1
or 1.5 inches ( lenght) of magnets you have stacked together as rail
magnets you must have a "NON FERROUS" 1/4 inch gap between each of
them. I used 1/4 inch wood disks or 4 USA copper pennys between my rail
magnets. Both work excellent. My first rail pole has 13-- 1.5 inch
long .75 inch diameter grade 38 neodymium magnets stacked together
inside an aluminum channel. My runner magnet is 4.5 inches in diameter
and is a total of 3 inches thick, 3 sections stacked together.

The second rail pole you will see in a movie clip is 1/4 inch thick, 1
inch diameter, stacked ceramic disk magnets arranged in like fashion as
above. That second rail pole was not as powerfull as the neo rail but
it does the job. It was brought in a little closer as its power was
less than my neo rail.


Lets concentrate now on the MID point of the FIRST rail pole of the
track.

Look across and you will see the second rail pole segment starting at
that point and tapering inwards ( upside down V shape or arrow shape )
at the end. Just like the first rail did.

Now lets look at the ending point of each rail. If the end point of
both rails are to close to the runner the magnet will try to spin
around. If to far away nothing is gained. Some angle you will have to
find with your particular runner magnet there will be a pronounced
repel or kick off at the rail poles end.-------> Acceleration.------
>

Tom Ferko wrote to me:

Hi Stefan,

Thanks for showing it on your web site.
I hope others try to replicate it - I did everthing on a level surface and
hope to see if it goes up an incline later.   Maybe using a lighter runner
might be better.   Lots of room for experimentation.  My runner magnet
actually rolled/fell off the wood planks end onto a section of white plastic
sheet I had at the end of the plank so as not to damage the magnet on the
concrete driveway.  It even rolled further down this plastic as you can see.
Lots of repulsive action at the ends of the stacked two magnet rails.

Notice how the runner magnet is pushed one way then the other way at the
ends of the rail magnets?   It does not head straight down the wood plank
but at  angles due to the last push it recieved.    The runner magnet is
heavy and 3 inches wide or it would only spin around when it was pushed.
This way it just rolls an angle first one way then later another way.
Staggered.     You can put this letter with the other info on the track on
your web site if you wish.       Many Thanks,    Tom Ferko

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefan Hartmann" <hartiberlin@gmx.de>
To: "TOM FERKO" <tferko243700MI@comcast.net>
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 11:13 AM
Subject: Re:Stagger Track Illustrated


> Hi Tom,
> I made a new topic about your special SMOT ramp here:
>
> http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1244.0.html
>
>
> Please update the topic with new pics and new
> reports.
> Did you have a small incline in the video
> or why was the magnet jumping down at the end ?
> How much height difference does your ramp have ?
> Many thanks.
>
> Gruss / Best regards, Stefan Hartmann

He replied again:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefan Hartmann" <hartiberlin@gmx.de>
To: "TOM FERKO" <tferko243700MI@comcast.net>
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: Re:Stagger Track Illustrated


> Hi Tom,
> many thanks, I have posted your answer.
> Why did you at all let the roller fall then ?
> Why didn?t you put a longer wood plank there,
> so you could measure, when the roller stops after
> how many meters ?
>
> 2.Can the roller magnet be shown to roll from about 1 Meter
> away into the track, then being accelerated and will
> roll out then with higher speed. or are at the beginning of the track
anywhere
> any repelling forces ?
>
> 3. How are the magnets setup in the tracks of the video ?
> in the overunitybuilder yahoogroup there are different pics and
> many things have been deleted there already.
> Maybe you can send me a drawing for posting, which
> shows the magnet setup ?
>
> 4. in the overunitybuilder yahoogroup there was a picture
> with a new ramp showing "V" shaped iron rods and
> magnets at the side. Did you also make a video with this setup ?
>
> What is o far your best ramp and what height difference does it climb ?
> Many thanks.
> Gruss / Best regards, Stefan Hartmann
> ----

Hi Stefan,

No repel forces in the tracks begining. Lots of repel at the ends of the two
tapered rails. Notice the rails are spaced very wide at the beginning or
runner entry point.  You will have to experiment with the magnets you are
using to find your own sweet spot angle.

I did not have a longer plank at that time and did not expect the runner
roller to move that far.

I will make an illustration of the rails and how they are constructed and
send it to you.

Forget using the iron Vs for the track now. They did not work out as well as
I thought they would.

I never tried to incline the runner magnet.  I was totally absorbed with the
fact that the runner actually rolled as it did on a level surface.

If  the runner was directed into another setup just like the one in the
movie clip I see no reason that why the runner would not accellerate much
faster.

I learned one thing real quick and that was use a heavy stacked ring magnet
runner magnet with a lot of surface area contacting the track.   If the
runner is very light all it will do is spin around and jump/stick to the
nearest attraction pont. The weight and surface area of the runner magnet
acts as sort of a DAMPER and by the time the runner trys to react on forces
pushing and pulling on it -- it already is past those forces and directs
itself towards the next set of forces acting on it. And so on.  This way it
now can roll in a left-right- right- left staggered fashion using its own
power and that of the track rails.

If the rails you see in the movie clip came together at the ends you would
most certainly have created the dreaded "sticky spot" and that would stop
all runner action.  Both sides of the runner magnet now would be "PINCHED"
or pushed  inwards and all runner action stops dead.

Tom

thanks hartiberlin

Hi To,
I always love your craftsmanship.
Could you post a construction diagram for the rail mags.
I think a possible variation could be rigging up a circular track with bent magents. the running magnet could be harnesed to a centrally located axle or pin, yet still allowed to swivel.
This would allow acceleration and be a way to harness some useable power.
Will ponder over it on the weekend.
My only problem with devices like this is, will the magnets loose their power over time? Given its a push pull situation that might over come the problem.

Here is a new picture from Tom about his new upcoming SMOT ramp motor
design with swinging back and forth stators:

Hi Stefan,

I am going one better with this.  I am building a Stagger track SMOT motor
as I show in this Jpeg plan.

Please let me know if you can see the jpeg or just a bunch of meaningless
numbers.   Look very carefull at it.

Observe the South pole rail ends are positioned OUT OF THE WAY so as to
keep the two lazy susan mounted HEAVY ring magnets turning.    The North
ends of the rails Draw the turntable ring magnets to them and the weight
inertia ( 14 pounds) in my case keeps them turning to follow the next rail
to its North end.   And so on.     Its so darn simple!

You can post this alsoif you wish including the motor plan.  I hope everyone
gives it a try.

Remember that the two ring magnets an the turntable are not wimpy little
magnets but two 7 pound ring magnets.   We need weight inertia to keep
things moving.

Tom

Picture attached to this message, you must be logged into the forum to see it !

Hi Tom,
right, I agree totally.
The retreating stator magnet are a good idea,
cause also Finsrud and Scott Clarke are using them
in their magnet motor designs.
When you put these swining stator magnet maybe fixed
via some springs near the turntable, they can then swing back
and forth when the rotor magnets pass by...
This is a very good idea.

Many thanks.

Quote from: mramos on July 14, 2006, 05:30:40 PM
No picture, and I did start to build it..  But I am an electronics guy not mechanical..

A 4 spoke wheel with ball bearings on the end of the spokes (no rim), and magnets curved and angled to make a SMOT on the outside of the wheel the bearings travel in.  It would travel on a wheel, in a circle..

I can try to draw it and upload it.  I made a SMOT years ago and my kids loved it..  Thought about the wheel back then, but never finished it.

My SMOT was ball bearing, on a aluminum IC chip carrier, with to brick neo magnets.  It went fast and flew.

please post picture(s)

Here is a picture of Tom?s stator  with the magnets inside.
He wrote to me:

Hi Stefan,


Here is a photo of a single stagger track  rail and what it looks like under
the red tape.   I have many stacked disk ceramic magnets shown here. Shown
are 13.  Neodymium disks or blocks can be used and really they are much
better to use but costly.  There are 1/4 inch thick wood disks seperating
one inch sections of stacked magnets.    North-south-north-south-ect.   Real
easy to make and really powerfull at the ends. Note:  The total lenght is
determined by trial and error.   To short  a rail and it will not work right
and to long it will be weak and the runner will stop in the center point
somewhere.

Here is the next picture from Tom,
what he will build now with his motor.

He wrote:

Hi Stefan,

Here is what I am going to use to attempt constructing a working Stagger
track SMOT motor. I sometimes use my bedroom as my workshop.   I
photographed everything on my bed spread.   My wife thinks I have a few
screws loose but I keep trying.

Notice the two huge donut ring magnets.  When you step up to that type of
magnetic power strange things happen.  I can track one rail with one side of
any single donut runner magnet.  I dont need the other side of the magnet at
all!!  Notice the North sides of both Donut ring magnets will be facing the
pivot point of the turntable.

You can easily see how the rails are stacked. I have two wood disks ( 1/4
inch space) for every one inch of stacked magnets.  I ran out of wood disks
and have to complete the 4th rail. The rails have a powerful North and South
pole on either end.

NOTE to those not knowing:  The rail magnets MUST have wood or plastic
seperations ( 1/4 inch space) as shown.  Why?  Study all the Tomi track
literature you can find and you will have your answers.  Its a long story
but if you use a solid long magnet as a rail the Donut runner magnet will
stop in the center of any given rail and never move towards the other side.
In our case its the North pole side.


I am going to use a very flat bearing under the turn table. Its shown in the
jpeg. That bearing turns as smooth as silk and it will hold 100 pounds.  Any
type of outside magnetic field influence on either Donut ring magnet(
mounted on the table top) will cause the table to rotate on its center
axis.(MOTOR PICKUP)

Hopefully all will work out.        You can post all  this also Stefan if
you wish.  I hope others are interested.

I am using ceramic magnets as I have hundreds available but if someone with
a lot of cash springs for neodymium magnets -- wow-- "when - not if" the
motor works look out---    Tom

Tom wrote again to me this:

Hi Stefan,

In my original plan (jpeg) I sent to you I was going to use TWO ring magnets
on the turntable. Thats in error.  Looking further I saw an error in my
thinking.  I have created a sticky spot.  Observe that both ( 2 ) mounted
ring magnets on the turntable will close in on the fixed North ends of the
magnetic rails they are tracking at the "exact" same time.   This is a  no-
no as one donut magnet will be pushed inwards on one side of the table and
the other donut magnet will be pushed inwards on the other side of the table
at the exact same time when passing the North poles of the track rails.  A
sticky spot is now formed.

Observe the movie clip of the moving linear Stagger track once more. "ONE"
side of donut magnet will always push off on the end of a magnetic pole at
an angle and roll away.   The other side of a magnet WOULD do the same thing
IF THERE IS A MAGNETIC TRACK RAIL ON THAT SIDE ALSO.  IF both push off
angles cross each other the donut runner stops dead in its tracks right
there.  THE DREADED STICKY SPOT is formed.

That never happens on the linear stagger track shown in the movie clip
because the track rails are staggered and only one side of the runner magnet
is tracking a rail at any given moment and when pushoff time occurs the
runner magnet is free to leave the rail without influence from the other
side of the runner magnet.

To correct this I will go with three donut magnets on the turntable. Thats
indicated where the three powder blue lines are.    Only "ONE" side of "ONE"
donut turntable magnet will be directly facing the North fixed end of a
given track rail pole at any given moment in time. The other two turntable
magnets facing their rail pole track will be "power tracking"  in different
positions.   End result will be no sticky spot.

Please replace the original jpeg plan with this corrected  jpeg plan and
explanation  Stefan......  Tom

Tom and all,
better try it first with just one rotor magnet,
(and a equal weight at the other side for compensation).
This way not too many fields will negatively superimpose
and kill the effect !

Quote from: hartiberlin on July 15, 2006, 04:30:09 PM
Tom and all,
better try it first with just one rotor magnet,
(and a equal weight at the other side for compensation).
This way not too many fields will negatively superimpose
and kill the effect !

Hi All,

I just rounded up a bunch of lead bird shot that equals the weight of the donut turntable magnet. Now I have a counterweight that can easily be lightened or made heavier to balance the (hopefully) spinning turntable .    Tom

If this thing doesn't work as a rotating turntable, or as a generator in and of itself....why not combine it with a gravity motor? If you can get the magnet to go up a ramp, just make the ramp long enough that it will give a meter or two of lift, drop it down into a water-wheel type assembly, then down onto a track that leads back up the ramp...round and round she goes = free power.

Just a thought.

Alternatively, the wheel could be vertically mounted,
like the exercise wheel in a hamster cage:
http://ruthless.zathras.de/graphik/ratten/wheelRat.JPG
with a ball bearing (magnet) in the place of the hamster.
Paul.

Tom almost got it to work already, he writes:

Hi Stefan,

I am making progress with this idea.  The donut ring magnet when turned
outwards starts all kind of action and the table rotates. I have it turning
downwards here to photograph it and keep all hell from breaking loose.   I
dont have the North poles of the rail rod magnets pinned yet so that is
another job.   The bag you see is filled with counterweight lead shot and
weighs as much as the ring magnet.  Real smooth bearing action and the table
turns perfectly.  Now all I have to do is find the best position for the
rail magnets north poles and pin them in such away that I can swing the
south poles anywhere I desire. I want this motor to run clockwise but it can
be setup to run the other way.    Hopefully the single donut ring magnet
will track each rail one right after the other.     A resulting self runner.
Note the pivot center hole is for a shaft in case the motor becomes
operational.  Tom

Here is the attached picture ( can only be seen, when logged into the forum)
Note: he has turned the rotor magnet down by 90 degrees to hold
the turntable still for taking the picture. Normally the rotor magnet
is as in the other previous pictures.

At this point, is the rotor making full turns or not when left on its own?

Quote from: crazykevin on July 18, 2006, 12:16:20 AM
At this point, is the rotor making full turns or not when left on its own?

Hi,

I dont have the North end of the rail magnets pinned yet. I turned the Table donut sideways just for a second. The table started to turn and all four rail magnets jumped upwards to the donut.  "The force is with me." Its now how I channel it to achieve rotation.

All has to be secured before I can see if I get and go beyond the 360 degree rotation.   With 14 pounds on the table rotating I am going to have quite a lot of inertia to propell me through weaker spots.  Anyways thats my hope.

Tom

Hi Tom,

I just now had a chance to check this thread out and it is looking good so far! If and/or when you get this thing working, I will be ready to make a replication (tons of ceramics too  ;D).

How high are the stator rails with respect to the magnets on the rotor?

God Bless,
Jason O

Quote from: Jdo300 on July 21, 2006, 03:15:36 AM
Hi Tom,

I just now had a chance to check this thread out and it is looking good so far! If and/or when you get this thing working, I will be ready to make a replication (tons of ceramics too  ;D).

How high are the stator rails with respect to the magnets on the rotor?

God Bless,


Jason

Hi Jason ,

Take a really small magnet and place it on the side of the aluminum channel holding the rail magnets.  I turned my small magnet loose and let it drop to the side of one of my aluminum rails with the rail magnets inside.

This very small magnet will stick to a certain spot every time.  Note the height.

Thats the sweet spot for the rail.

Now take this same small magnet and drop it on the outside edge of the large donut magnet.  Being loose and it will stick to a certain location every time.

I found on my 4.5 inch diameter donut ring magnet that that location was 1/2 inch inwards from the outer face of the magnet edge.


Now when you line up the rails with the large donut magnet faces you will go for a height that has both sweet spots directly facing each other.    Tom

Hi,

If anyone is interested in trying this circular stagger track SMOT motor attempt (Note: Presently its an attempt) here is sources where you can buy most parts:

First please review the linear stagger track movie clip many times to see how all this ties together before you start spending your money.  The linear track worked!!!!  No sticky or stop spots.   Hopefully this circular track attempt does as well.

Rigid large diameter plastic straps to secure the large ring donut magnets to the turntable---Mcmaster-Carr catalog page 1375 at the bottom.

Anodized Aluminum channel edge trim ---(Figure 1- Style 1) Mcmaster-Carr catalog page 3539.   Different sizes are available.

Large powerfull donut ceramic ring magnets---www.surpluscenter.com   Online catalog page 163.  Click "SURPLUS CENTER" on Google.

Listed here is a choice of three sizes of large inexpensive ceramic ring magnets. 3 1/8, 4 1/2, or 5 1/4 diameters.           I am using the 4 1/2 diameter.

Look into "Ebay Auction" to find inexpensive ceramic disk "Craft" magnets. Stack them together inside the aluminum channels to makeup the four magnetic rails.  Also dont forget wooden or plastic seperator disks placed every one inch while stacking.  Those are 1/4 inch thick.

If you have a of of cash buy many Neodymium one inch diameter- one inch long magnets found on Ebay and seperate each with the 1/4 inch thick plastic/wood disks.  Use this setup for your four magnetic rails.  The powerfull ceramic ring turntable donut magnets stay as they are.

That would be a very powerfull combination and the motor might run away should it be made functional- Beware!!

Have fun,

Tom

Hi All,

I constructed the turntable with 3 huge ring magnet rotating arund a centerpoint.

I placed the  4 magnet rails illustrated previously around the turnable magnets and nothing happens.

I then took those rails away and "fast" spin rotated the heavy 21 pounds of turntable donut magnets using a single small 1.75 inch long, .75 inch diameter neodymium rod magnet acting as a trip device.

I am now constructing a simple mechanical trip mechanism that will do this work.  Very little effort is needed to drive the huge force of the spinning turntable permanent magnets.

Its simply a small force controlling a larger force.   Folks working in electronics see this all the time.


I will post videos of a working motor as soon as I finish it.     

Tom

Well done I am following your progress with great interest
mark

Humm... The magnets out of a microwave might be good for this... They are 3-5 inches in diameter, polarized through it's face. Let us know how you are doing so we can start the replication process..

Hi All,

I finished the turntable with three huge 7 pound magnets on top of it with the South poles facing outwards and equal spacing between each magnet. 21 pounds total.

All North poles face inwards and the turntable rotates with the lightest touch.

As I stated before the four magnetic rails did not work so  the turntable donut magnets did not move.

If any one has made only the turntable as described they have not wasted their time.  Believe me when I say all you need is a SINGLE very small and powerfull bar magnet and you can rotate the  turntable by hand.  The poles on this small powerfull magnet must be seperated by about 2.25 inches.

I am in the middle of constructing a mechanical timing/tripping device that does the same thing I do by hand.  So far everything is working out.

If all works in the end then what we will have is a very simple self running motor consisting of 4 ( or 5 ? ) permanent magnets, a turntable bearing and one (or two) simple mechanical tripping devices. I might make two tripping devices when I see that one works

The tripping devices allow the small force of a single small powerfull magnet to rotate/controll the force of 3 huge magnets.  I have (9) .75 x .50x .25  neodymium rectangular grade 50 magnets stacked together that does this work. Small, powerfull, and light.  Bring that (by hand) near your turntable setup and see what happens !!

I will show how I constructed those mechanical tripping devices when my motor is operational.

You probably can figure out on your own what I am doing if you have already made the heavy 3 donut magnet turntable and can turn it with a fingers touch.  I will stay in contact.


Tom

Thanks for the update,
The mechanical tripping device is the hardest part. I wish you well on solving that issue.
mark

Hi Mark,

Actually figuring out the mechanical tripping device came real easy to me.

Thinking just how to keep it in a very simple form using just basic cheap materials to construct it was the hard part.   I am past that right now and into testing and adjusting the device for maximum effect turning the magnet turntable. 

So far all is going well.    Tom

Hi All,

If you are going to use microwave donut ring magnets and put three of them on top of a turntable make sure you have an accurate weight scale and weigh everything.

If one side or the other on the turntable weighs more than the other you will have an out of balance condition and the turntable will fly into pieces if or when it gets to spinning.

Just like a new car tire needs wheel weights in several places for balance purposes you "MUST" balance the weight equally on the magnet turntable.   I got 21 pounds of donut magnets spinning true with a slight touch of one finger- and now with my mechanical tripping/timing device.         Tom

Dear Tom,
Can I now asume that with a small kick start (finger) you have the device rotating continuosly. If so well done , if not i am sure you are close.  I have been following the progress of this with great interest.
Mark

Hi All,

I have tested many simple mechanical ways to spin the heavy 3 donut ring magnet turntable motor idea but so far I have not been able to do this mechanically.  Its however easily done with a in - out pumping hand motion. A small rod magnet will spin the turntable.

I am going to make an electromagnet and power it with a small 12 volt battery to power the motor to get it running.  That is not keeping with the idea of a pure all permanent magnet motor idea but for now this seems the best way possible.

A hall trigger device will fire the electromagnet at a precise time and rotate the turntable using BOTH of its poles to do so. 

Remember I have all the South polaritys facing outwards on the three donut magnets mounted on the turntable.   Fire a electromagnet with both its north-south poles anywhere NEAR the between point of any two of the turntable magnets and  the table turns rapidly.

Essentially now the motor now will be a huge heavy pulse motor.  I will see how many days I can run it off a small 12 volt battery before it stops.  A highly efficient motor but not overunity.   No cigar for me-------.

If anyone has a good mechanical idea of how to time and power a bar magnet to move in and out (pump) real easy I am open for all suggestions.   The simple timing/pumping device would have to work off the power of the spinning motor.                             Tom

Just a thought...

Have you already tried some piston-type mechanism, specially designed for your idea?
Maybe, a such mechanism can imitate your hands motion, but can be difficult to tune all right.
Or some kind of rotation of the bar magnet?

Hi Tom, Have you tried the spring based back and forth movement of the stators,
simular to Finsrud?s machine ?

Hi All,

I am now thinking of this idea and I am presently running with it.

Make a see-saw type device with a single very powerfull light weight bar magnet on one end and weight on the other end of the see -saw that weighs the same as the bar magnet side.

By pushing up on the weight side the very powerfull bar magnet side will "BOUNCE" down into the turntable rotor field and rotate the turntable.

Now this is the easy part.  Very little energy is needed to do this.  A small electromagnet can push upwards on the weight side of the see-saw device if a flat permanment magnet is mounted UNDER THE SEE-SAW BEAM directly above the electromagnet.

When the electromagnet is tripped by a hall switch timing circuit the electromagnet will fire and push up - REPEL-  the small magnet above it mounted to the underside of the see-saw- beam.  This action forms the timing circuit where as the huge powerfull bar magnet is "BOUNCED"  downwards off the turntable powerfull magnetic field and keeps things moving.

Whats your thoughts on this guys?     Tom

Hi,

Can anyone tell me if overunity is possible?

I am going to power a small electromagnet with 12 volts Dc and have it do only one thing- Thats pulse tip the See Saw balance setup I have described in my last posting.

Now the small very powerfull permanent magnet at the other end of this see saw setup will be synchro pulsed bounced at the precise time into the turntable  magnetic field.  That action will keep the turntable spinning rapidly.

My hope is that whatever output energy I can extract from the rotating turntable will be greater than the energy consumed by the small electromagnet pulsing/timing circuit.

Keep in mind that the electromagnet has a very weak field and its action in turn introduces "synchronized bouncing".  Directing a very powerfull bar magnet field off the huge magnetic field of a rotating 21 pound turntable.  That simulates hand pumping.

With all that said ---  Is overunity possible to acheive this way?   Open for discussion.

Remember it takes an chemical exposion blast to trigger an atomic blast that in turn triggers the blast from a hydrogen bomb.       Weak to strong.             Tom

Been watching where you are going here. A smot will travel out the end and then stop in the stickey point. Proven thing. OK, now if you had that track on the outside of the rotor with say three "vehicles" at staggered points with three seperate tracks. One of the vehicles will hit the end of the track while the others are on the way. Stands to reason that this will bump it over the end point and into the next track. Put multiple of these, and stagger them, should motor over nicely. This thing has merit but just has a problem to be overcome.

sugra

Hi all,

I have been working at this for a long time now and I believe I have come up with something that actually works.  I am putting it together now.  You will need many magnets and time.

If you have a larger than 6 inch diameter ring magnet check out this simple experiment.  IT ONLY WORKS WITH LARGE RING MAGNETS.

Stack many disk magnets together and make a long rod out of them. The lenght of that rod is important as it should be the same size as the diameter of your ring magnet AFTER IT IS PLACED AT A 45 DEGREE ANGLE.  See below.

Take that long rod of stacked disk magnets in your right hand while your left hand is holding the large ring magnet up on its side on a table. (The ring magnet will not be laying flat).

Face the NORTH SIDE of the ring magnet towards you.

Now take the long stacked rod of disk magnets you made and hold it at a 45 DEGREE ANGLE with respect to the ring magnets lowest center point.  The ring magnets north pole and the rod magnets south pole should touch the table at the same bottom center point close to one another.

If you construct many of these stacked rods and angle them exactly as above you will find --after spacing them apart somewhat that the huge ring magnet will start rotating strongly in one direction.  The ring magnet will try to crab sideways also so it should be securely mounted as suggested below for maximum effect.

The 45 degree mounted rods all have the south poles on the ( bottom) lower end.  The huge ring magnets north pole side facing the stacked rod magnets will always pull towards any south pole and is pushed continuosly by the (top) south pole of the rod magnets. >>>>>>  <Take the lower half off these sideway vees and you have a 45 degree staggered track.   Form a circle with that staggered track and the large ring magnet and try it out. 


You will have to construct a center point and arm that swings around it.  The ring magnet(s) will have to be securely mounted to the swinging arms ends.

A circle of 45 degree mounted magnet rods will be placed in a circular staggered track fashion around the outside of the swinging pivot arms.


Let me know if anyone trys it.  No Sticky spots at all !!    Thats what I am working on.    Tom

Quote from: magnetman12003 on October 30, 2006, 01:21:57 AM
Hi all,

I have been working at this for a long time now and I believe I have come up with something that actually works.  I am putting it together now.  You will need many magnets and time.

If you have a larger than 6 inch diameter ring magnet check out this simple experiment.  IT ONLY WORKS WITH LARGE RING MAGNETS.

Stack many disk magnets together and make a long rod out of them. The lenght of that rod is important as it should be the same size as the diameter of your ring magnet AFTER IT IS PLACED AT A 45 DEGREE ANGLE.  See below.

Take that long rod of stacked disk magnets in your right hand while your left hand is holding the large ring magnet up on its side on a table. (The ring magnet will not be laying flat).

Face the NORTH SIDE of the ring magnet towards you.

Now take the long stacked rod of disk magnets you made and hold it at a 45 DEGREE ANGLE with respect to the ring magnets lowest center point.  The ring magnets north pole and the rod magnets south pole should touch the table at the same bottom center point close to one another.

If you construct many of these stacked rods and angle them exactly as above you will find --after spacing them apart somewhat that the huge ring magnet will start rotating strongly in one direction.  The ring magnet will try to crab sideways also so it should be securely mounted as suggested below for maximum effect.

The 45 degree mounted rods all have the south poles on the ( bottom) lower end.  The huge ring magnets north pole side facing the stacked rod magnets will always pull towards any south pole and is pushed continuosly by the (top) south pole of the rod magnets. >>>>>>  <Take the lower half off these sideway vees and you have a 45 degree staggered track.   Form a circle with that staggered track and the large ring magnet and try it out. 


You will have to construct a center point and arm that swings around it.  The ring magnet(s) will have to be securely mounted to the swinging arms ends.

A circle of 45 degree mounted magnet rods will be placed in a circular staggered track fashion around the outside of the swinging pivot arms.


Let me know if anyone trys it.  No Sticky spots at all !!    Thats what I am working on.    Tom

please post pictures/drawings/videos if possible.

thanks :)

That sounds really unique. Please post more information if you can.

Hi All,

I forgot the one most important thing and that is there should never be more than 3 magnetic rods facing the ring magnet at a 45 degree angle at any time.  So space out your rods accordingly as illustrated in this photo.    Tom

In the previous drawing the blue color at the (top) end of the S1 rod end should be red.    All rod North poles are up and all south poles face down ( bottom).  The North side of the large ring magnet faces them.  Watch what happens!   That ring magnet will move strongly to the right if setup as illustrated.             Tom

[EDIT] Deleted.

@magnetman12003,

Can you show a video of your device working?

Hi Tom,

AWESOME SETUP!!! This is yet another example of the 90 degree rule that I keep preaching to everyone! http://www.fdp.nu/free_energy.asp?book=90 (http://www.fdp.nu/free_energy.asp?book=90). Tom, in the picture you have these rails mounted vertically and the doughnut magnet is rolling horizontally through the setup? How many sets of 45 degree rails have you used so far? Are you saying that the magnet is attracted into the setup and rolls out without any hesitation? If so, if you could give us a few pictures of your setup, I'll go online right now and order some magnets to experiment with :-). Please keep us posted.

God Bless,
Jason O

Hi All,

I am working putting this concept together right now.    I found the ring magnet travels to the end of a linear track WITHOUT ANY STICKY SPOTS.  Now for the circular form.

How this works in a circular form will be most interesting.

The ring magnet in a linear form will stop at tracks end as there is nothing more in front of it to attract to.   Make a circle of rod magnets positioned at 45 degrees and there will always be an attraction in front of the ring magnet as well as a huge push along from the repel forces on the top side of the ring magnet.             Tom

Tom,

How long is the current track that you have made? There is a slight possability that it could be the edges of the track that are doing the pushing (I'm saying this out of ignorance of the forces you are getting). But if you have made long tracks of these rails, is the force in the center just as strong as the forces on the ends?

God Bless,
Jason O

One More question. As you are moving the magnet through the track, once it gets to the end, if you keep rolling it out past the end of the track, does the magnet attract back to the end? Also, at the beginning of the track, if you start out far away from the beginning and you roll the magnet into the track, is there any repulsive force that wants to reject the magnet before it gets inside the track or does it get pulled in?

Hi Guys,

I am making a very long linear track right now so I can answer all your questions.  I did this with a  short track and it works but you know how that goes. A long linear track will tell the real story and if it works out without any glitches I will make a short movie to show all.  The movie will show a operating circular track.      Tom.

Quote from: magnetman12003 on October 30, 2006, 02:16:40 PM
Hi Guys,

I am making a very long linear track right now so I can answer all your questions.  I did this with a  short track and it works but you know how that goes. A long linear track will tell the real story and if it works out without any glitches I will make a short movie to show all.  The movie will show a operating circular track.      Tom.

can't wait! will i be able to see it by the time i get home from work tonight?

@magnetman12003,

Where do you live? I'm ready to visit you if you're in the US or UK, if that's OK with you, and see first hand the working device. Best of luck.

Hi All,

I am far from completing this.  I already constructed the turntable with three huge ring magnets on it as stated much earlier.

I triggered those magnets into rotatng by using an electromagnetic pulse but found  all I had was a very large common pulse motor setup. Nothing special.

So once more I went after my primary goal which is to construct a "ALL" permanent magnet motor that uses its own magnetic power to generate usable mechanical motion power.  As in overunity  or perpetual motion untill the single bearing used wears out.

I already constructed a linear magnetic stagger track which could roll a huge  6 inch ring magnet 6 feet.  I made a movie of that.  The problem I faced with that stagger track was I could not bend the rail. I was at a standstill for a long time at that point.

With this improved concept of  building a stagger track the 45 degree ROD setup as shown it should be an easy matter to construct a circular form. Thats if the magnetic rods and ring magnet are positioned verticaly.

Another thing to remember is if you are using more than one large ring magnet space them apart at a good distance or you will have inter reacting magnetic fields to deal with. 

I have that problem on my 3 ring magnet turntable.   I will keep you posted as soon as I go from one development stage to another. 

When or if I get this running in a circular form anyone who chooses to visit me in Michigan is welcome.  I am not worried about those using the info I post as the whole world now knows about it.   I am not in this for money or fame.   Most folks think this impossible. I would like to prove them wrong.  Folks thought Edisons light bulb was impossible also.     Tom

I thought you all might like to see this.  The ring magnet diameter is 6 inches in diameter.  Cheap one inch diameter ceramic disk magnets are stacked in one inch groups with a 1/4 inch wood or plastic seperator between each group.  A total of 6 one inch groups stacked together inside a plastic tube.  North polarity on top side and south polarity on the bottom.

That rod magnet is shown in the S2 position.  You have to manually FORCE it down so it touches the bottom baseline of the ring magnet as show on the illustration. All the while you are keeping the angle the same as illustrated.

What that means in the real world situation is that if the rod magnets were secured in a fixed position the FREE ring magnet (north side) now can roll/head to to the rods south or bottom pole.   Tom

Hi Tom,

Nifty arrangement you have there. Where did you get the tubes to put the magnets in from?

God Bless,
Jason O

Hi Tom,
why do you use so many small disc shaped  magnets in your plastic tube ?
Why don?t you use longer rod magnets in these tubes ?

Are these smaller disc magnets cheaper for you ?
Do you have between these disc shaped magnets in the plastic
stator tubes also some wood discs, so there are air gaps ?
Or all magnets just stacked together ?
Many thanks.

Hi All,

The plastic tubes can be ordered from McMaster - Carr. They have a web site .  Different sizes are available.

I used the cheap ceramic disks which can be bought on Ebay in lots for a real good price.

I have about 2,000 of these disks on hand so thats why I am using them.  Any long rod magnet can be used.  Just stack them with wood or plastic seperators every one inch.     Why?

This is a long rod version of a Tomi track. Read up about the Tomi track on the web.

The center point of any "LONG" rod magnet without seperators is the weak spot and magnetic related travel stops there.  Add the spacers evenly as illustrated and the center point of your stacked rod with seperators in it will not have that stop point in it.

The Tomi track has a lot of bad traits which I wont go into.

I will elaborate that the so called "sticky spot" is where the big pinchoff or bottleneck occurs because two powerfull lmagnetic fields basically push your magnetic vehical ( runner magnet ) inwards from BOTH sides.   

I never really understood why a sticky spot - but it finally sunk in one day. So simple.

The stagger track concept works around this entirely.  Notice I am only using the North( ONE) side of the Large ring magnet and not the South side. 45 degree rod angle sets ring movement.  No sticky spot this way.       Tom

Hi Tom,

It looks like you may be onto something here. One thing I did notice is the similarity of your stagger track configuration to one of Eric Vogels' multi-track Minato wheel setups.

(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fdp.nu%2Fphotobooks%2Falbum0%2FBig2photo.jpg&hash=48c74c806ed19b0b48542a65c7413e55c82abe4c)

Here's a video showing one of the wheels he made:

http://www.fdp.nu/photobooks/album0/big2result.avi

He had problems closing the loop with his wheels although I don't remember if he tried closing the loop on the multi-track ones. The other big difference between his design and yours are the spacing and proximity of the track segments. I believe that your design is much better because the magnet tracks are far enough away so that their fields do not mix and kill the effect. This is something I observed when playing around with my arm-ramp test for the 90 degree rule. I noted that I always got strong kicks when the magnet was pressed through the gate using the lever, but if I used a rotor with magnets on it, the gating became less and less powerful as I added more magnets around the circle. I then did simulations and realized that it was the mixing of the fields that was killing the effect, so in my case, I would need to use shielding the isolate the fields of the magnets. This probably does not directly apply to your setup though but I will whip up a few simulations of the track magnets so we can see what the fields look like.

God Bless,
Jason O

Hello,

Here is a simulation of the track in your picture using the same dimensions as your magnets. I'm working on a simulation of a circular (flat) version that I will show next.

God Bless,
Jason O

Good News, The circular version's fields seem to look very similar to the linear track. Now I'll try to duplicate the linear track in the 3D simulator to see what I can come up with.

God Bless,
Jason O

Hi Jason,

Great Artwork,

I dont have the software program to do that and glad you do.

Can you illustrate a total motor idea rendition showing a centerpoint with two long arms attached to it.  At both ends of those swinging pivoting arms a ring magnet would be attached in a vertical position.

Now take the 45 degree vertical rod setup made in a circular fashion and and center it around the outsides of the ring magnets as close as possible without touching  This should portray what the motor might look like once completed.    Tom

Quote from: Jdo300 on October 31, 2006, 03:33:03 PM
Good News, The circular version's fields seem to look very similar to the linear track. Now I'll try to duplicate the linear track in the 3D simulator to see what I can come up with.

God Bless,
Jason O

Jason
Nice work!

One might say sure does look like a toroid too!

Quote from: magnetman12003 on October 31, 2006, 03:51:53 PM
Hi Jason,

Great Artwork,

I dont have the software program to do that and glad you do.

Can you illustrate a total motor idea rendition showing a centerpoint with two long arms attached to it.  At both ends of those swinging pivoting arms a ring magnet would be attached in a vertical position.

Now take the 45 degree vertical rod setup made in a circular fashion and and center it around the outsides of the ring magnets as close as possible without touching  This should portray what the motor might look like once completed.    Tom

Hi Tom,

I'd be happy to. But could you perhaps draw up a rough sketch showing what you want. I'm not sure I understand what you are doing based on the description.

Quote from: mikestocks2006 on October 31, 2006, 04:10:44 PM

Quote from: Jdo300 on October 31, 2006, 03:33:03 PM
Good News, The circular version's fields seem to look very similar to the linear track. Now I'll try to duplicate the linear track in the 3D simulator to see what I can come up with.

God Bless,
Jason O

Jason
Nice work!

One might say sure does look like a toroid too!

Hi, Actually, the secret to a working magnet motor is a vortical or spiral shape of the fields. The closed loop problem is then not a problem because there technically isn't a closed flux path except around the circle. The only major problem remaining is flux linkage. In most full circle magnet setups, the reason it stops working after looped is becuse the fields short through the magnets rather than spreading out into the open air like open tracks. Hence, no interaction with the rotor and no biased rotation.

God Bless,
Jason O

Hi all,

I hope you can render a total 3D rendition of this Jason as it is what I visualize what the motor might look like.   This is the top view looking down into a circular "Cage" made out of spaced out 45 degree verticaly mounted rod magnets as crudely illustrated.  Only three mounted rod magnets face "BOTH" rotating ring magnets at any time.  This is in keeping everything as simple as possible.

On the inside of the cage and not touching the cage at all is a central one bearing mounted pivot point where two long arms can rotate 360 degrees all day long.

At the ends of both arms a large ring magnet is mounted just like a car tire is mounted on an axle. Both ring magnets dont have to touch anything at all nor do they ride on the bottom of the cage floor.  The magnetic flux alone from the cage walls attracts the "close" ring magnets into a never ending circular rotation.  2 ring magnets are needed for proper motor balace while spinning.

You might ask what about the rod magnet repel forces working on the top of the ring magnets.  Both those forces repel each other and since the vertically mounted ring magnet is pinned to the pivot arm it will stay in one position and will not try to turn or slip sideways.  If anything -- it also repels the ring magnet along while the ring magnet always attracts to the "Newest" rod North pole presented in front of it.          Tom

The diagram I prviously sent mistakenly said disk magnet on the bottom. That should be a ring magnet. There are two of them.      Tom

I am getting real sleepy guys-  Bed time for me.   The motor should rotate the other way than what is shown also.    Tom

@magnetman12003,

I guess, I missed something. Your last drawing appears different from the simple construction with the ring magnet and the three rods at 45o you showed a picture of.

Hi Omnibus,

That diagram was for a simulation he wanted me to do. The original track is still just what he described earlier. The completed circle is what I believe he is working on at the moment; right Tom?

@Tom,

I am still working on the simulation for the model. I got it about half-way finished last night but since the results were inconclusive, I'm going to let it run a little longer tonight to get more concrete results. Though I can say that from what I am seeing so far, it doesn't appear to be to encouraging. But don?t forget that the simulation program doesn't take into account some of the 200 known magnetic effects other than the well-defined B field interactions.

God Bless,
Jason O

Hi All,

Right now I am making a long 36 inch linear track to see if any problems occur.  If all tests indicate I can move the Ring magnet freely from one side of the track to the other I will shoot for a circular form.  I have 16 rod magnet made up at this point.  I plan to layout a wood framework to stack them into as you see them on this illustration.

I might just lay the ring magnet on a 4 wheel platform over the rod magnets with the proper polarity facing the rods and see if the ring runs the track.  Thats easy to do.

The circular track will be more difficult to make.  This illustration shows my 7 3/8 inch long stacked rod magnets that are 1 inch in diameter.  My ring magnet is 6 inches in diameter.   The spacing between each rod magnet is 1 inch.


Note that only 3 rod magnets have influence over the ring magnet at any given time while the ring magnet is in motion.    Tom

Hi Guys,

I found out that the idea in my last illustration came very close but did not work out in a long run.  I made a few simple modifications that produced the results I hoped for.

What I am constructing now is based on a staggered track concept. I did that a while back but I could not find a way to make it circular.  This particular rendition can be made into a circular form very easily. It can move a 6 inch diameter -1.75 inch thick ring magnet with ease.  Get this-- Only "ATTRACTION" is used and there are no sticky spots at all.   I will make a movie of it in operation in a linear form.  If no bugs pop up within a long run I will go the cicular route.  I have the magnets all ready to mount and am cutting more track wood now.   Tom

This illustration is in color and details how the stagger track is layed out and constructed.  My previous illustration was not very clear.  The view shown is looking straight down from the topside.  The graph paper squares represent 1/4 inch blocks.

The large ring magnet ( color coded yellow - north side is red, south- blue) is 6 inches in diameter and is 1.75 inches thick.  It is free to run/roll inside the center linear track channel.  In this case that direction is indicated by the arrow.

On both sides of the ring magnet are 1/4 inch thick wood seperators running the lenght of the track ( color coded black).  An all wood channel is now formed for the ring magnet to easily roll through. It can be 2 inches tall.  This channel keeps all rod magnets from contacting the sides of the rolling ring magnet while its running the track. The channel also keeps the ring magnet running straight and true.  There are a lot of different powerfull magnetic forces at work.

The 2 inch long rod magnets are 1 inch in diameter and the colored polaritys "FACE" the ring magnet sides directly at an offset of 45 degrees as shown.

They all are layed down and fastened on the baseboard the ring magnet is running on.

I used stacked rods but a solid rod magnet can be used.  Notice how they are stagger spaced. The 45 degree offset, the polarity positioning, and the staggered  track are very important!  Any or all not done right and the ring magnet will not roll the track.

Also note how there is only staggered ATTRACTION on the ring magnet-- first one side is pulled forward then the other side is pulled forward, back and forth and so on as the ring magnet rolls faster and faster.  No sticky spots to deal with as in a TOMI track configuration.

Further testing of a long linear track run will determine if the track centerpoint is weak and if the track runner (ring magnet) can move up a small grade: Also the runner ring magnet must be able to self start from any position on the track.

I have 1 inch thick wood seperators between each rod and a clear plastic cover plate holding them down from the topside.   Those rod magnets will definetely try to move when the large ring magnet rolls the track so they "MUST" be securely fastened.           

I hope this clears things up.     Tom

Hi Tom,

Awesome progress you're making! My simulation bugged up before I could finish it up but I can say that it forecasted a non-working motor for the earlier track you made. However for this one, I think you are very very close to making this work. I say this because what you made is very similar to the research that Howard Johnson did with his magnet motor setups. In his book, Discovering Magnetism, and the new DVD that was just released on Tom Bearden's website they show how canceling the spins in the magnets can allow for unidirectional motion. Check out this page from the book:


On the DVD, they actually show a demo of Howard Johnson's linear track and he basically has the magnets setup like the diagram in the book. The kart that is on the track also has magnets setup just like the ones on the track so the kart is constantly pulled in one direction without any sticky spots.

God Bless,
Jason O

Hi Jason,

Could you photograph and post the part of the page you illustrated in the Bearden book where it says "Here is a larger depiction Sho--" ?   Part of it is clipped out on the lower right side of the page you just posted.  It shows the direction of force fields around the outsides of each magnet.   I would like to see all of it in its entirety.

This should clear up a lot of things for everyone.  It makes a lot of sense to me at this point.       Tom

Here's some scans of the pages dealing with the gating principle:

Hi All.

Based on the info Jason posted above I applied that to the stagger track design and came up with this modification which works a lot better.  Lucky I had not assembled the long track yet I am working on and still can use everything I had cut previously.

I have illustrated only one flux line radiating from each rod magnet "CORNER" showing the flux flow as per what Jason posted.

The important corners that provide "magnet work" POINT DIRECTLY INTO THE CHANNEL the ring magnet is traveling in.  Notice how the flux line directions in all cases flow with each other

I still dont know if the flux line eminating from the ring magnet as illustrated is correct but in any event this modification works a lot better than what was illustrated previously.   Open for comments.    Tom

Here is a photo diagram of the stagger track I am putting together right now.

28 - two inch long rod magnets and one large heavy 6 inch diameter ring runner magnet. 

You can turn the entire track around and run the ring magnet the other way also.

If all works out ok it will be easy to make a circular version.     

Tom

Quote from: magnetman12003 on November 16, 2006, 03:01:45 PM
Here is a photo diagram of the stagger track I am putting together right now.

28 - two inch long rod magnets and one large heavy 6 inch diameter ring runner magnet. 

You can turn the entire track around and run the ring magnet the other way also.

If all works out ok it will be easy to make a circular version.   



Tom

Here is the right photo of the long stagger track.

Tom

Hi Tom,

Are you able to get a strong force in one direction in the middle of the track also?

God Bless,
Jason O

Hi,

Presently got only 1/2 finished.  The track will be very close to 4 foot long when completed.  Weighs quite a bit using nothing but ceramic magnets.   Will make a movie when done.   Tom

Tom

Hi Tom,

How are you securing the magnets in that configuration you're using?

God Bless,
Jason O

Hi,

I am cutting 1 inch square dowel rods at 45 degree diagonals.  One end is hot glued to the inside wood channel the ring magnets will travel through.  The other ends of the dowel rods will be hot glued to a similar wood strip. 

I am making 2 of these setups to use on either side of the ring magnet run channel.

The wood magnet spacers will be layed out like this:  Wood spacer- magnet- wood spacer- magnet- ect and so on.    I will have to cover the top of all apon with clear plastic after completing. My cylinder looking  rod magnets will not pop out of the little "boxes" they are now in when the ring magnet passes by.     Tom

Here is a photo illustrating what I talked about.   Tom

Hey Tom,

Looking good! Keep up the good work and I look forward to seeing the finished model!

God Bless,
Jason O

Hi all,

Jason,

Standby as I will make a movie of the stagger track working and post it after the holidays.    So far everything is working out as expected.          Tom

Hi Tom,

Does your roller magnet experience any back force as it enters or exits the stagger track?

Happy Holidays to you too :)

God Bless,
Jason O

Hi All,

This is a photo of my 4 foot long track.  The many stacked ceramic disk magnet rods laying inside the wood framework are all set at 45 degree angles.  Notice all the Blue (South) poles are on one top side of the track and the Red ( North)  poles are on the bottom opposite side.

Right now the wood framwork has been glued together and is drying with all the magnet rods inside it positioned correctly.

When it is finished I will put clear plexiglass on either side of the rod magnets trapping them in place so they dont move. 

The whole track as you see it will be placed in a vertical position with the Blue or South -poles of all the rods TOPSIDE.


My ceramic track rods are 6 inches long and 1 inch in diameter.  My Huge ring magnet is 6 inches in diameter.

It seems that whatever diameter your ring magnet is the rod magnets you might use should be the same lenght??  Not sure about thickness or magnet types at this point.   You must experiment on your own with whatever ring magnet you have.

In an earlier test of a smaller track setup the same way I was able to "ROLL" the 6 inch diameter ring magnet left to right in front of and down the track.

Its Red or North side was facing the track rod magnets as illustrated.  The Blue or South pole side of the ring magnet faced me with NOTHING between it and me.   No magnetic sticky spots will result doing this.

My hopes that this improved longer track will "ROLL" THE RING MAGNET the same same but with a lot more force.   Will keep all posted with the results in a movie form if all works as planned.           Tom

Quote from: magnetman12003 on November 30, 2006, 04:37:02 PMWill keep all posted with the results in a movie form if all works as planned.           Tom

Please post a movie even if it does not work :-X

Hi All,

I am very close to completing the track with a modification in rod magnet placements.  I will tell everyone this however:   

IT WORKS!!!

I can roll a 4.5, 6, or 7.5 inch, diameter heavy ceramic ring magnet with ease  on the 4 foot linear track.  Making a circular version should be real easy also.  After I am finished thats my next project.

Only attraction is used. No Repel.


Movie will follow after I get it painted up and looking presentable to photograph in operation.     

The real beauty of this setup is anyone will be able to duplicate it easily and with hardly any real expense.

Standby,   Tom

dont worry about it being presentable, the only perfection we need is that it works  :)

Well done TOM!!!!

Excellent work.

Looking forward to seeing the results.

Regards

Sean.

Sorry, guys, it works only because the track has ends.
As soon it will be closed in the loop no movement possible.
But respect for the great job...
Looking forward to see I'm wrong...

Glad to hear that you've made progress. ;D

Light, have you seen his older video? The roll-away on it was huge! I see nothing that can stop it...

I believe what light was referring to was that a closed ring of magnets in near attraction will only apply a minimal ammount of energy to other magnets in their proximity. But this device would not require a closed loop of magnets, just a closed loop of track. If the SMOT ramp set at a 30 degree incline can elevate the large wheel magnet to the top of the ramp and allow it to continue rolling, you can then use this energy to steer the magnet back to its starting release point with gravity.

I worked on a similar concept years ago known as a TOMI track. At the time I didn't have the time or resources to get the parts made to close the loop but could gather a lot of energy in a linear demonstration.

Great concept and its cheap and easy to replicate. I would be thinking miniature golf, water slide, roller coaster type gravity driven turns when it comes time to close the loop. I know the examples may seem silly but the physics behind the examples are actually quite important to the task ahead. The heigher you lift the magnet the more energy you can harvest on the wheels way down.

I'm quite excited to see what Toms track can do... (vertically)

~Dingus

Hi All,

I am almost finished with the track. I dont like to show something that looks like junk.  It will present itself nice when done and all polaritys will be color coded.   Easy to understand and inexpensive to replicate.

This "Stagger Track" concept unlike the regular TOMI track uses only a single pole of the runner magnet to face the tracks magnetic signatures.  No sticky spots result as this track works on pure attraction alone.

The "TOMI" track has a very undesirable characteristic of a dreaded sticky spot that for years folks have been trying to plow through or work around.  Oh - you can do that with an electromagnet but that reqires extra energy in itself.  Both attraction and repel forces power this type track.

I like to think of the TOMI sticky spot as a "Power Pinchoff" bottleneck where magnetic forces on one side of the track push towards the tracks center and magnetic forces on the otherside of the track do the same with equal force.   End result is clipped track runner movement.             Tom

LOL TOMI was easy...

All you do is place a hole mid way down the track and put the track at a 40% angle. The roller magnet rolls up the track and falls through the hole on to the next ramp. I could get a single magnet to move 6 feet linearly in this configuration. I do agree this is a whole different beast then a TOMI though. Much easier to deal with and build I would assume. Good luck, and I'm quite excited to see your next demo.

Thanks for the updates and insight,
~Dingus

Hi All,

Here is exactly how to rotate a large ring magnet from left to right.

All the stacked disk magnet ends facing you are South poles. The track illustrated is in a vertical position.

They will be facing your huge ring magnets North pole.

You will have to space the ring magnet and track apart according to what you are using.  Make sure you are trapping your disk magnets between layers of clear plexiglass or they will take off as soon as the ring rolls by.

The ring magnet will roll from left to right.   I did this with ceramic disks.  If someone has enough neodymium magnets This should be very powerful.

Have fun guys.   The cat is out of the bag.   

Tom 

Quote from: magnetman12003 on December 05, 2006, 01:31:40 PM


All the stacked disk magnet ends facing you are South poles. The track illustrated is in a vertical position.

They will be facing your huge ring magnets North pole.

Hi Tom,
did you now change the position of the stator magnets ?
Earlier you had them rotated by 90 degrees, if I am right ?

Can you post a video showing your roller magnet getting accelerated this way ?
Are there any sticky spots at the beginning or end of the track ?

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

Hi Stefan and everyone,

Yes I had the track magnets facing the other way but I soon learned that the ring magnet only rolled so far down the track and stopped.  You have to have a long track to see real results.   A short track does not cut it.

The way I have my track setup is easy for me to experiment with different track magnet combinations. I just remove the plexiglass cover over all my 45 degree offset track magnets and swap them around to see if the large ring magnet likes a different magnetic signature to roll on.

Its really ironic -- If you look real carefully at the track configuration you will see is has a lot of the characteristics of the Perendev motor rotor construction as far as angular magnet placement goes.

I knew about the Perendev motor but was not really into its construction details.  At that time till present I had been pursuing just how to magnetically roll a large ring magnet.  I knew it could be done as I posted a movie of my first attempt. That linear setup could not be made circular but it sparked my thinking.

After I did a lot of experimenting I came up with the configuration of track magnets that worked using a 45 degree offset pattern.  The Perendev motor uses a 30 degree offset and all its magnets are also tilted a certain way.  The Stagger Track magnets are not tilted at all.  A internet freind of mine pointed how close both magnet patterns match to me. 

I really was surprized at how similar the magnetic patterns are as I came onto this from a much different perspective not even dreaming about the Perendev idea.

I am a rather slow worker and will post a movie of the track in operation.  Still have a few things to do.

I hope EVERYONE with a lot of neodymium cylinder magnets gives this concept a try and posts a movie also.  Any neodymium track should really haul the ring magnet.  I have thousand of ceramics so thats what I used to experiment with.

You asked about the ring magnet starting the track.  Its DRAWN STRONGLY INTO THE TRACK BY MAGNETIC ATTRACTION.  You dont have to force it in.  Then it runs the tracks lenght.   At the end of the track if the ring magnet has enough built up enertia it will leave on its own.  If the inertia of its moving mass is not enough it will bounce back because remember the track works by attraction only. 

I believe that this track can operate forever if made in a circular fashion as the ring magnet always has the GREATER magnetic attraction forces in "FRONT" of it with repel forces not even in the picture.

I have to point out one thing.  I am using a long lenght of cheap plastic PVC pipe to guide the ring magnet while its rolling.  The pipe is placed between the ring magnets North side and stagger track. You will have to determine the best distance using the materials you have. This will keep a minimal rounded area for the ring magnet side facing the track to slide on as well as keeping the magnet rolling straight and true by itself.

Think of making what you see into a drum or cylinder configuration and your imagination can go wild.   My fondest hopes are others give this a try and just maybe soon we can have a working motor. 

Tom

Hi Guys,

In the very last power track jpeg photo I illustrated I made an error.  As shown the ring magnet will travel from right to left. Not left to right.

A couple of other notes I will share.  My 7.5 inch diameter very heavy ring magnet does travel the track much better than my 6 or 4.5 inch ring magnet.    You will have to experiment with whatever size magnets you use to get maximum results.

I have my 7.5 inch ring magnet North side 4 inches away from the tracks face. At that distance it ran the track the best.  Get the ring magnet to close to the track and it will slide sideways and attract hard onto the plexiglass covering the track magnets.

I use rubberized  non slip grip tape on the circumference of the ring magnets.   Tom

pleasepleasepleaseplease hurry making the video! i'm so anxious to see it! :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X

also, here's a video of my smot (nothing special): http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8651229076711578154&q=smot&hl=en

Hi All,

Here is my completed track. Two photos.  Shown are my 3 ring magnets. 7.5, 6, and 4.5 diameter rings.  I am having so much fun experimenting with all of it so I will make the movie later.  Shown are the cheap round ceramic craft magnets I purchased that got me started.  The ceramic disks inside the wood framework all have the south poles facing to you.  Rings move from right to left.  You can reverse that I guess but right now its working as illustrated .

I decided to see what would happen if I placed a few grade 50 rectangular shaped neodymium magnets on top of one half the tracks circular cylinder stacked ceramics just for fun. I did not have many of them.

Wow what a difference in performance!   The track has much more power now.  One half of it as compared to the weaker ceramic side.    My large 7.5 inch ring magnet had to be rolled on the desk top for maximum performance.   That distance measured 6 inches away from the plastic covering over the track magnets.   I guess my next step is to invest in some grade 48 one inch diameter neodymium disks that I can use over all the ceramic disks.   

Tom

Hi,

Here is the other photo.

Hi All,

I know you have been waiting patiently to see a movie of this track in action.

I hope to have a movie presented sometime tomorrow.

I used the same setup you all saw and in several places I also used rectangular neodium magnets over the ceramic disks to better the performance.

I will show the VERY heavy 7.5 inch ring magnet running the track.  I made the whole track using  Ceramic magnets, neodymium magnets, wood, all brass screws, and a lot of wood glue. Nothing else. All magnets stockoff the shelf - no fancy cutting.  It looks like someting a drunk might make so I nicknamed it a STAGGER TRACK.

I would like to see a lot of involment in building one.  Many thinking heads are better than one.  A lot more powerful track can be made simply by using nothing but neodymium magnets.  I would love to see others also post their findings on this site.

The particular setup that I will show in the movie favors the 7.5 inch ring magnet.  Each time I tried a different ring magnet diameter I had to change ring magnet clearances and make a different magnet arrangements inside the track wood framework. My 6 and 7.5 inch rings work the best .   All this time I never used any repel forces.   Only pure attraction.

Remember I barely scratched the surface of whats possible.  Needs a lot of work to get it motor ready.       

Tom

No, unfortunately I did not see a movie, but my cycling smot experience tells me that gravity and inertia yet not enough to overcome of magnetic fields forces balance. And only example of Perendev keeps me afloat in these projects. Very hope that Tom's project will run in circle because it very close to Perendev's concept, which is still mystery to me (does anybody already bought his EMM 100 or 300?).

Hi Tom

Looking good! One test you might try is to lay the track flat on the floor and lay the roller magnet on top of the track with a roller car or something between the two so that the magnet can move freely. We should determine (assuming you don't already know this) if the magnet has to roll in order for the track to work. This in my mind seems to be important for a rotary version (assuming a fixed unrolable rotor magnet).

God Bless,
Jason O

P.S. for those of you interested in the Perendev Motor, here is a copy of their patent.

Hi Guys,

Here is my first lousy attempt to make a movie of the track in action. I never used this particular camera to make a movie with. Lots to learn.

I clipped the magnetic signature of the end of the track nearest to me to keep the ring magnet from falling off the tracks end to the floor.

The track is perfectly level and I am using two non ferrous 4 foot levels to keep the ring magnet rolling straight.  I had my wife just hold the top of the ring magnet with one finger and then I told her to let loose of it. I forgot to turn the camera off as she pushed past me in a rush so you will hear a lot of me grunting.   I hope to make a much better video soon.     

Tom 

Hi All,

You can see the video also at:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3949054750252796882   


Tom

Hi djancak,

I looked at your smot ramp with great interest.

Since the Stagger Track works on pure attraction maybe a ferrous sphere or ball would also roll in the same fashion as your smot setup.

I have not tryed that but as soon as I find a large hollow steel ball or sphere I will see what happens.  Maybe it will roll the same as a ring magnet does?????  Wouldnt that be something??      Tom

Hi,

Here is a much better video.   Click this link

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8116864603853908455

Tom

I would suggest conducting a demo on a surface where you can allow the ring magnet to roll off the track. Currently we can't assume the ring escapes the flux packet (sticky point) created at the end of the track. If you can demonstrate the ability of your device to relese the manet while allowing it to retain its added momentum so that it can roll a distance off the track that is equal or greater in distance than the length of the track, then you got something.

Thanks for the great videos and awesome prototype plans,
~Dingus

Hi All,

I will have to put the track on the floor and uncork the tracks end so the magnet rolls off the track and does not get damaged or damage the floor.   I will do that much later after I am through having fun.

  Please remember that I am basically using some real weak stacked ceramic magnets to attract the ring.  I have a few small neos in given places but wish the whole track could be made from 1 inch long and one inch wide cylinder neos.  I am retired now and living on a fixed buget.


Tom

I fully understand... I was only pointing this out as to establish to everyone that the effects witnessed are common in magnetic tracks of the SMOT and TOMI configurations. I'm quite pleased to hear of your experiments though and look forward to seeing your track evolve in to your vision.

Good luck,
~Dingus

Very impressive, Tom. Great job.
As we can see the ring magnet rolls because it's  under forces of field's ends of the track.
I bet it would not move, if you start it from middle of the track, because from the end you have a strong field and the middle of track the ring passes by inertia.
If you put a block magnet on the wheels from car-toy (I did the same, but not under angle) it will move much faster. And if you put this block under some degree to the track it will be sort of Perendev's concept.
(Does anybody know someone who already bought Perendev EMM100? They say they started a mass production).

what?!?  :-[ what happened to the setup like you had in http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6531588179303444480&q=smot ???

i thought you had built something that could actually escape the magnetic field  :-\

Quote from: djancak on December 08, 2006, 01:54:25 AM
what?!?  :-[ what happened to the setup like you had in http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6531588179303444480&q=smot ???

i thought you had built something that could actually escape the magnetic field  :-\

yeah what happened to that? wasn't this the original setup we wanted to close the loop for?

Hi All,

Go back to page 1 and review the movie setup that had a heavy ring magnet rollaway at tracks end.

The way this first setup works is exactly what I had in mind when I created the last video you saw.

The point being is that the first movie you saw on page one with the ring magnets big rollaway could not be constructed in a circular fashion.

Now to the present track.  Using nothing but powerfull neodymium magnets spaced apart as illustrated one can do the same thing.

That will require a lot of time experimenting with magnet selection, placement, and a lot of effort ON YOUR PART.  

This track when taken to the next level can lend itself to be be made in a circular form.   In any event you must get the "INERTIA OF THE MAGNETS MOVING MASS TO OVERCOME THE MAGNETIC TRACKS PULL" just like the track on the first page with a big rolloff.  I used a lot of powerfull 1.75 inch long neodymium magnets there.  13 of them to be exact.   The rest were stacked ceramic disks.

In this latest track I only illustrated whats possible- not a big track end rollaway or a full blown motor setup.  I used plentifull weak ceramics to illustrate a point that the ring magnet can and does travel on this type track which can be made cylindrical.


By only experimenting only with SMALL magnets used as a track RUNNER you will find that very tricky to perform if not impossible. Quite frankly I have never seen a movie of a magnet tracks end rolloff anywhere using nothing but small track runners.


Looking at the future:

Take the present linear 45 degree offset track and construct it into a circular cylinder shaped form.

Now envision a CENTRAL single bearing point with two arms extending out of it.  At the end of each arm is a ring magnet in a vertical position facing the tracks cylider shaped walls.

With nothing but magnetic attraction always running ahead of the rings with a smaller attraction force on the backside of the ring magnets you can envision a force imbalance.  Result is movement.  

Maybe someone better equiped with time and patience can take this to the next level.  Tom

Unfortunately, it may not be possible to configure the magnets in a circular fashion.  When you angle them in a circle, the top and bottom distances become misaligned to the ring magnet due to the arc in the circle.  A bit of a paradox!

Hi,

If the arc circle is large enough this angle might be insignificant.

Time permits I will try it when I get the linear track working perfectly.    One small step at a time.   

Just for the heck of it - I have to ask---- Is anyone interested enough to try this concept out?


Tom

I plan on re-replicating my TOMI mid track drop ramp. It can do that with escape velocity and a angle on the track meaning the magnet lifts itself alowing it to be dropped on to the next ramp. I may need to order some more magnets first though, but I'm wishing I had video of my findings.

Congrats on the sucessful experiment and I look foward to seeing what your next experiment with the track will be. Keep up the good work!

~Dingus

What if you used the smot devices to move a ball and drop it on a wheel with other balls on the wheel which when they hit a certain position could be knocked off the wheel onto the smot ramp and thus providing the loop and excess energy.

looked at this device  and saw the ramp with the wheel and figured if you can move the ball up the ramp with the smot you might be able to get the wheel to turn.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1688.0;attach=4178;image

Hi Guys,

I am back again.

I just stumbled onto something huge.

Working with magnet AND track configurations using 45 degree offset angles I found a combination that litterly pulled an entire unfastened loose track and magnet layout I had constructed on my floor towards the ring magnet I was holding in my hand.   I never had that happen before. 

That happened when  I put the ring magnet near the start of the track.  The attraction ( jump start )of the ring to the start of the track was immense.  The entire loose track and magnet setup took off to me before I could turn loose of the ring.

I made a partial track and the heavy ring "SHOT" down it with great speed.  No slow crawling this time.  I am making another 4 footer to see if track distance or anything else has other effects on runner movement.   Short tracks dont cut it.

Before I post any kind of movie this time the track setup has to accomplish all three items listed below to be usefull in any motor attempt.

!.  Fast runner movement with a large pull into the tracks start and big rolloff or rollaway at the tracks end.

2. The runner must self start from ANY given position on the track.


3. The heavy runner MUST move on a uphill track grade and depending on how hi the grade is any rolloff would be nice at tracks end also.


Any one have someting more to add to this list?   Tom

maybe something of a carousell configuration to catch the ball at the top of the smot ramp and then carry it around and place it at the bottom, you could have multiple balls on the carousell at anyone time adding to the gravity inertia and collect the energy from the carousel as it rotates .. ???

sorry roggy .. thats what you are already saying .. :|

i was thinking in terms of having the merry go round on the same plane as the smot ramp elevation not vertically .. is this what you mean roggy ?

@ Tom
-not a requirement just a experiment-
If your new tracks can meet all of your new requirements, I would suggest adding a plastic axal through the heavy ring and try hovering it above different points on the tracks. Perhaps you may find a way to "roll" without the friction of a track. If you can achieve just elevation and roll away on your ring magnet, then I will have to buy some more magnets very soon. Good luck on the new tracks and please post some pics/vids of your more recent track experiments. Some visual stimulation will give the other members some inspiration. Thanks for all!

@ Roggy
You should draw a diagram of your idea. but... Why have a stock of balls in a caged wheel if only one ball using the ramp? I think that if you can use static magnetic fields to lift a wheel or ball to the top of a ramp you can the use gravity driven turns to return the ball to the ramp. No need for anything but well engineered returning track after the ramp.

~Dingus

Hi Guys,

For all you that recommend using an iron ball to construct a motor here is a very basic interesting and simple setup using an iron ball, a permanent magnet, a non ferrous wheel and gravity.  It was patented already many years ago. I dont know if the inventor got it to work.

From my experience attempting to construct such a device I saw that the iron ball will PIN itself to the side of the wheel with a powerfull magnetic force and hold the wheel in place not allowing it to turn.

And thats with the ball on one side of the non ferrous wheel offsetting its balance.   

If a way was found to allow the ball to rotate in place rather than stick like glue to the wheels side then this setup will work. Maybe putting the iron ball inside something else that can slip around it?   Any ideas?     Tom

Hi Guys, 

I have many huge ring magnets and since this simple demonstration works using nothing but a pencil and 6 small ring magnets I will give it a try with my huge 4.5 inch diameter ring magnets and a long wood dowel rod.  Maybe the setup can be used as a motor!

The pencil you see is levitated and actually spins by itself -- no tricks.

Tom

Hi,

Make one yourself.

I made one about a week ago...pretty cool...will spin for a long time but not by itself.

@konduct,

Approximately how long? Hours? Days?

no.  More like 5 to 10 minutes depending on how smooth and fast you can spin it.

It'll be very intersting if you can post a video.

It is basically just a frictionless magnetic bearing.

Quote from: magnetman12003 on December 13, 2006, 03:48:50 PM
Hi Guys, 

I have many huge ring magnets and since this simple demonstration works using nothing but a pencil and 6 small ring magnets I will give it a try with my huge 4.5 inch diameter ring magnets and a long wood dowel rod.  Maybe the setup can be used as a motor!

The pencil you see is levitated and actually spins by itself -- no tricks.

Tom

this idea well go great with the TWO-STAGE MECHANICAL OSCILLATOR by Mr. Mikovic (http://www.veljkomilkovic.com/OscilacijeEng.html)

@konduct,

That's correct. Will be interesting to see with a pencil close to 1kg as Finsrud's steel ball. How long will such pencil spin. I'm thinking in terms of Finsrud's device. If the 1kg pencil stops spinning sooner than couple of tens of minutes this may be a clue probably that Finsrud's machine, working for days sometimes, isn't just an efficient redistributor of the initially imparted energy. Just a thought.

Yeah.  I really believe half of the battle to OU is in efficiency alone.  Why make it if you just waste it!  However, this dual stage display has opened my eyes quite a bit. 

For instance, with all of these different possible magnet motor configurations, I don't believe the genius is in the operation or drive of the motor, but in the "switch" that is concieved that will get us past the sticky spot. We can configure magnets any way we want to for more or less torque, speed, etc... The real trick is figuring out an efficient type of mechanical switch that isn't taking away from the motor's main drive power ie the "dual" stage... Basically two seperate cycles that "compliment" each other to procuce excess energy.  All the TPU folks are working on this electronically. 

Gravity is free on Earth.  It's free today and will be free tomorrow because it can't be taken away from us easily.  I believe some Koreans have run some test leading to the conclusion that pendulums using gravity are about 2X OU.  Subtract the 1 part kinetic input from the 3 part output and you are left with 1 part.  There's your freebie at twice as much as the input.  If you use up the freebie for work...it doesn't operate as efficiently as recycling the freebie and getting work out of a second energy source connected by a lever.   The lever in the Mikovic device seems to be the switch or relay between the to gravitational interactions on each end.  Just my thoughts. If the two seperate "gravitational interactions" interact with each other in the right way, they seem to make more "freebies".  The more complimentary interactions between forces should, in theory, output multiples of energy. This is a dual osc approach.  Wait till we get to the triple/quad osc's! =)  Can we say LENR?

Hi,

Please reference ring F on the friction free magnetic pencil bearing.

Now look at the illustrated diagram below.   Thats my 6 inch ring magnet with a long magnet bar under it at a 45 degree angle.

If you put that ring magnet on top of a table and just placed the long magnet rod at a 45 degree angle near the end of the ring-- the ring will try to roll off the table.  Continuous force.  Try it if you have a large ring.

Getting back to ring F on the pencil-  Say we "CRADLE" two non ferrous idler bearings under pencil ring F where now it would spin in place.  It would now go nowhere but "hopefully" only spin if a single long rod magnet is brought near its end at a 45 degree angle.  Instant motor?? Comments??     Tom

I tried and it just seems to "bind" the axle...but I didn't have a ring any larger than 1 inch neos.  One thing with the floater setup is you have to apply whatever field you're working with evenly on both ends to keep the whole thing from "kinking" sideways.  Let us know if you do!

Hi All,

I am going to make the pencil setup on a grand scale to see what happens using 4.5 inch diameter ring magnets and a 1.75 inch diameter wood shaft insted of the pencil.     I have all the parts already so why not try it.      Tom

Definately Tom.  I think a setup like that would produce some ridiculous rpms if it works!  That setup keeps reminding me of a Japanese game show we watch in the US called "Max X".  One of the games requires the contestant to run across a series of rollers over a mud pit. If they get stuck with one foot on each roller, it's nearly impossible for them to not fall in the mud.  No matter which way they go, the weight shift makes them slip through.  The same leverage can be applied to a ring mag being levitated I would think. Push one side and pull the other and get rotation.   The main problem I had was rather than affect a portion of the small ring, the line of force resulting from the attraction or repulsion would always run a straight line to the axle. ???

Hi All,

If anyone is interested the 4.5 inch diameter ring magnets I am using can be purchased from www.surpluscenter.com  page 163.   $ 5.99 each plus shipping.        Tom

magnetman .. please dont stand near the pointy end of your stick
otherwise we may not get any more posts from you .. might be the case of the skewered magnet man that becomes the next story of folly in the overunity forum.

I had an idea too instead of resting the point end against a board
would it be possible to mount a magnet on the board and an opposing one on the stick end to reduce friction further ?

instead of this

-------->|


have this

----------+ +|

Tom, your new videos are not very convincing,but your very first video was much better.
Why dont you just make much longer tracks as in the first video ?

Hi,

The first video I made granted does work well but this linear track no matter how hard I tried did not lend itself to be made circular.

I got results as shown in my later videos but they all did not measure up to my expectations for power and speed. Any motor made will have to have both to be usefull.   I still am working on the track with different magnet setups hoping to get everthing I described previously going for me.  If I can do that then this can be made circular.

In the meantime I came across the levitated pencil setup I illustrated.
I  have already made many large levitated magnetic bearing setups but never in the way as illustrated with the pencil. 

If the pencil was tapered at both ends and they were placed inside fixed cone shaped end caps then there would be no way the shaft could "jump" out of this "entrapment".  Its axial movement would be limited when the shaft end points make contact with the insides of end cone caps.

I already have nine 4.5 inch diameter huge ring magnets and am starting to make the pencil setup on a large scale.  This magnetic bearing will be able to turn for an extremely long time due to inertia

I am going to experiment further using different configurations of magnets around one end of the ring magnet mounted on the shaft. Hopefully It will take only a very small force to keep the whole shaft turning forever.  This is the nearest thing to a motor configuration I have seen yet that makes sense.

If I am able to do that then maybe a self sustained motor can be made.     Total cost of 9 large heavy ring magnets about $54 plus shipping is very reasonable. Other than that only a wood framework and brass screws are needed.           I will have fun trying if anything else.  As you can see I like to work using large magnets.               Tom

Hi Dean,

Your idea about putting a magnet on each end of the rotating shaft and one with like polarity on the fixed rod stop plate sounds great!      

Maybe I can use a cone shape magnet for the rod shaft ends and a small ring magnet on the shaft end plates.   Naturally the cone magnets tip should be repeled within the inner diameter of the small ring magnet and the rod shaft now would always center itself.  

Then virtually no friction other than the air around any rotating shaft would exist.      I will have to look into that.   Tom

what a useful and maybe helpful idea from, dean!!!  my apologise sir!  i am sorry for ever doubting you.

lol, and happy holidays to all
sam

For those that want a fancier levitating pencil look at this toy called the Strobe Revolution.
http://www.arborsci.com/detail.aspx?ID=451
or
http://www.sillyasstoys.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=94

Same principle as the pencil but this one has LEDs that flash as it spins. The LEDs are powered by a couple of button cells in the axial. Cool effect and a nice desk top conversation piece I got as a gift a few years ago.. Now if you could just keep it spinning  ;)

Hi Guys,

For many years I have been looking at permanent magnets as a source of energy that might be converted to mechanical rotating motion.   A self powered motor.

Well I had been looking at the forest to long and never at the trees in front of me. 

I took another look at a certain magnetic characteristic of a huge ceramic ring magnet that I brushed off in the past.   I just started the (large)magnetic levitated pencil setup and that pointed me in the direction I am now headed.

I just found something that  I am now trying that might result in a self powered model car using nothing but permanent magnets, wood, brass screws, plastic, and non ferrous axel rods.

I actually got a large ring magnet to turn "Continously" with great  power by working it a certain way.  NO magnetic tracks are used whatsoever.  I hope to convert the idea into car wheel power.

Now I am constructing a small test vehical to put the idea in and see if it will self propel on any surface and any direction -- linear or circular.   Uphill will be the real test.

If it works so be it -- if it doesnt I wont be dissapointed as failure is nothing new in quest of free energy.   I should have the whole thing ready within a week and find out what happens.

Once again if it works I will make a movie showing all.  If it works it will make the Perendev motor look like old hat.  Uses only 4 magnets.

Unbelievable!    Tom

 

Tom, why did you remove your original SMOT video from Google Video?
I don't see how you could seriously think that it could not be set up in a circular fashion.

Tom. "Just for the heck of it - I have to ask---- Is anyone interested enough to try this concept out?
- I did, in small scale:
(top movie)
And  that's why it does not work and never will:
(bottom movie)
Because if to make it in the circle these "dead spots" (before the track) will disappear and the track'll lose magnetic "draft"; and if to place them faraway from each others it will not be enough power to overrun these spots.
But maybe we just needa more practice...

What is your concept with 4 magnets, Tom?

yes the original setup seemed to have the most promising results and i also cant see why you cant close the loop.  :-\

ok

Quote from: magnetman12003 on December 15, 2006, 11:10:45 PM

I actually got a large ring magnet to turn "Continously" with great  power by working it a certain way.  NO magnetic tracks are used whatsoever.  I hope to convert the idea into car wheel power.

Really? Can you take a picture of the device that self runs?

Did you have to introduce any physical energy or can it run without you touching it?

Hi all,

Here goes-  By now some of you may think me to be as nutty as a fruit cake but the quest for free magnetic energy is an obsession with me. I sleep dreaming on it. Sifting every fact I know and do one heck of a lot of experimenting.

The last two years I have been only experimenting with powerfull extra large ceramic ring magnets and smaller rod magnets. Now that I am retired at age 66 I have more free time.

Lets move on to the very present setup concept I have experimented with on a small scale.  What I did in the past directed me to this.

Most questions are answered below:

Do you know why this large ring magnet rolling device setup works so well ?  No - I have absolutely no knowlege in this area.  Its a very strange combination of attract and repel forces at work. I only know it works and there is only one way to get it to work.   I will leave magnetic technical details for engineers to figure out.

I overlooked this a hundred times in the past. I was looking for the forest and had a tree in my hands all the time.   

Is this ring rolling device/idea capable of moving on its own without any live body action help?     Yes

Can any person with good mechanical skills replicate this easily without a lot of expense?   Most Definitely!

Can it travel on any surface?  Yes- Round, straight, over shag carpets, uphill, ect.  I already did all that.

Does it use a magnetic track to follow?   No-  Part of my track ideas are incorporated within the basic working device.

Will it climb a grade?   I got the ring magnet to roll up a 5 inch grade on a tipped 4 foot plank.  I think its capable of a steeper grade.  I will look into that later. The ring magnet I rolled weighs 7.5 pounds.


Will it self start from any point you place it including on an uphill grade?   Yes - Amazing!

Can you stop it on an uphill grade then start it once more rolling upwards?   Yes - By turning a certain component.  Its very easy to do.

Can you reverse or stop the roll easily?  Yes - By turning a certain component. That is easily done.

Can this ring rolling device/idea power a car wheel?   Yes  I am making a small test vehicle right now that when finished will look like a small asphalt street roller.

A large roller ( Wide heavy ring magnet) in front and a the same in back.  Just the total weight of the ring magnets alone are 15 pounds.


How fast and powerfull do you hope the test vehicle will be?   From what I am seeing right now very fast and powerfull. 

What will you do if your test model you are constructing does not work with the device and idea within it?     Good question-- I probably will eat a lot of crow, bark at the moon, and turn red from embarrassment.  Ha. Ha.

What do you stand to gain out of all this?  -Nothing-  I plan to patent this idea and device. Not in the perpetual motion catagory either. We all know that goes nowhere.

"ALL" monies made from any industry interest or royalties will be directed to the St Judes Cancer research center for children. 

After patenting any one wanting to make the device or use the idea personally are welcome to do so.  If your intent is to profit in any way then expect royalties to go to St Judes.

I plan to make clear daylight movies showing it in operation.   The small permanent magnet device that powers the huge ceramic rings to move will be hid within the wood framework untill I have a patent pending in my hand.   

Tom

Hi all,

I made a clip of the floating pencil that I builted a while ago.

I did not have a good pencil so it was a little hard to make it turned fast.

Joe

Tom,

Makes me feel good reading your last post!!!  It seems that there is still hope for this planet!! 
Good work!!!! ;) :D

Joe

Hey Tom.  While we all appreciate your contributions, if you are to find a configuration that works, please don't let it die in the patent office. There is much debate on whether you can even patent certain aspects of "magnetism"

To show a video and not describe the principles upon which it works to allow independent testing would surely end up in the "scam" or fraud category.  (The patent office may put it in the same category.)  We have all followed your tests with enthusiasm, and I have tested along with you using various configurations. Please don't hold info back as there are companies such as Steorn that will probably launch OU products sometime within the next year or so.  I think we are all here to help in any way that we can so let us know what we can do for you if you need it!

Keep up the good work and don't try and make a long trip alone!

KB 

Do you hear music playing konduct?
Da Da Da another one bites the dust-Da Da Da another one bites the dust.
The sound of another invention we will never see because the inventor doesn't do his homework. No offence but at 60+ years old you should be smarter than this, if you try to patent this it will fade into oblivion never to be seen again. As well, after all your legal battles (10+ years)it will be too late, the children you hope to help will be stuck in a smoking hot world we call hell, formerly known as earth. Global warming is coming ladies, and sooner rather than later, the latest estimates say if the siberian tundra warms even a little the methane released will do major damage in a matter of years.
It's always the same too little too late, will we ever learn?

Hi Guys,

If I  can not patent this device idea then rest assured it will go out to the world. Already there is others I trust that know all about it so its not a one man secret.   I have wrote down info in envelopes to be delivered by others to news syndicates  should I meet an untimely departure from this planet.  I am a little crazy but not stupid.   Tom

Hi all,

One question--  Who out there has large ceramic ring magnets say larger than 4.5 inches in diameter and has experimented with them?

You can not comprehend anything I talked about untill you own such a magnet. Then you will see where I am coming from.    Try to get your hands on a 4.5 inch diameter ring magnet and buy enough of them so when they are stacked together the thickness is 3 inches or more. 

Plan on seeing ring magnet prices skyrocket later on.   Tom

Sounds exiting to me

Hi Tom

Keep going mate and if a discovery takes you down another pathway while experiementing then go with the flow if it feels right and it is gonna produce an end goal.

That is what experiementing is all about, not the boxed idea that if you have an idea you must stick with it until you get it going, because in reality you will probably not get to the end goal. But along that journey you have gained another part of the jigsaw that will eventually get you to your goal.

I change directions with my experiements at a drop of a hat but feel I have learnt something new each time that will eventually let me complete my jigsaw and if something arises that makes me go back and re-look at something I discovered along the way then I do.

Excellent work so far and looking forward to new ideas being released.

Regards

Sean.

Quote from: magnetman12003 on December 15, 2006, 11:10:45 PM
Hi Guys,

For many years I have been looking at permanent magnets as a source of energy that might be converted to mechanical rotating motion.   A self powered motor.

Well I had been looking at the forest to long and never at the trees in front of me. 

I took another look at a certain magnetic characteristic of a huge ceramic ring magnet that I brushed off in the past.   I just started the (large)magnetic levitated pencil setup and that pointed me in the direction I am now headed.

I just found something that  I am now trying that might result in a self powered model car using nothing but permanent magnets, wood, brass screws, plastic, and non ferrous axel rods.

I actually got a large ring magnet to turn "Continously" with great  power by working it a certain way.  NO magnetic tracks are used whatsoever.  I hope to convert the idea into car wheel power.

Now I am constructing a small test vehical to put the idea in and see if it will self propel on any surface and any direction -- linear or circular.   Uphill will be the real test.

If it works so be it -- if it doesnt I wont be dissapointed as failure is nothing new in quest of free energy.   I should have the whole thing ready within a week and find out what happens.

Once again if it works I will make a movie showing all.  If it works it will make the Perendev motor look like old hat.  Uses only 4 magnets.

Unbelievable!    Tom

 

Hi Mramos,

I am happy that you are getting the large 4.5 ibch diameter ring magnets,  I stacked 3 of mine together and made a ring wheel thats 3 inches thick.    I did the same and made another stacked ring wheel the same way.   Extremely powerful magnetically.

The thickness is needed to keep the ring magnet rolling strait and true. If you just use one  1 inch thick ring you will find it will do a lot of unsteady sideways crabbing. 


Any ways you might look into no slip grip tape.  The kind of tape you put on a bathtub floor with NO hard grit embedded in it.  Just a soft rubberized surface.

Wrap that tape around the outside of your ring magnets.   

Will tell more later.   Tom

Tom,

I have many big ring magnets.
I am posting some pictures of them,  they are 7  1/2" wide.
Do they have to be stacked in attraction or repel position?

Thanks  Joe

Tom's the man!  Thanks from everyone for your research!  I've been putting together and testing some theories from some of Steorn's threads about why some of these mag motor configurations will work.  A lot of what I come back to is very similar to Tom's research!   

where can I order some of those magnets?.
   I live in the San Diego area... 8).

Hello,

Thinking about what Tom said concerning this:

(I actually got a large ring magnet to turn "Continously" with great  power by working it a certain way.  NO magnetic tracks are used whatsoever.  I hope to convert the idea into car wheel power).

I remember a few years ago i tested a magnetic wheel using a plastic pail that i cut in half for use of a traction wheel with an axle in the center and round bars magnets using the carrot and the rabbit mode.   (similar to the "Calloway hamster cage")  Here's the link:

  http://www.angelfire.com/ak5/energy21/hamstercagerotor.htm

So, next week-end I will retry to build my old rig using my ring magnets instead of the bar magnets.
I will try the pull and push mode.

Keep you inform of my progress!

Joe

Hi Joe,

The hamster cage direction will not go anywhere. I spent a year trying it in every possible way.  No luck.

Here is a big hint.  Now get a LOT of smaller neodymium cylinder or ring magnets together. Plan on stacking them together later for a long lenght that can be adjustable if needed.   The larger the diameter the better. Mine cylinders are 3/4 inch in diameter.      Tom

you are right Mramos, I do'nt know how the heck I missed the link that Tom posted. thankyou.

@  Tom:
should I order the 4.5 or the 5 1/4 magnets?
thank you.
God bless.

QuoteTry to get your hands on a 4.5 inch diameter ring magnet and buy enough of them so when they are stacked together the thickness is 3 inches or more.

So the 5 inchers from surplus center are 1.5 inches thick. Only two to make it 3 inches. Will these work ? Should I get 3 or 4 ? What size for the smaller ceramic ring magnets ? I got a lot of rings and squares  Radio Shack magnets from my previous PMM creations. ;D
I am ready and willing to duplicate. Just give me a shopping list and a direction to build..

Tom-G

Missed that. So they have to be neos.. My R.S. ones are ceramic. I got a lot of different neo-rods but no rings.  :'( The large ones from Surplus center are ceramic as well. Will these work for the large ones or do they have to be Neos ?

for the neo smaller ones how about these :

http://www.forcefieldmagnets.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=23_37&products_id=66

Thanks,
Tom-G

Hi Guys,

I used 4.5 inch diameter ring magnets from surplus center .com.   I stacked 3 of them together to make a magnetic " wheel".  The thick ness is for stability to keep the wheel from tilting over while its in a vertical position .  You are now working with powerfull forces.

You need to stack many small rod magnets, disks, small rings, say 3/4 inch diameter together to make a lenght as long as your ring magnets diameter. Polaritys on the long ends. The more powerfull your rod magnets are the better the results . You will need to stack two such rods.

Guys- This concept and device idea works as I told you and you can have loads of fun with it.   Right now I am making a model car to test the device and concept in.   If it works I will show by movie the results. If it does not work I will present the entire concept to you all and one of you can maybe figure out how it can be used to power a car.   I have done all the testing outside of  a car model and I am stumped as to why it works at all ??   Really powerfull.    

Tom

You can use ceramics for your rod magnets also.  I used them and found neos were much more powefull.   I had a number of neos on hand so I used them.    Tom

Hi Tom,

Does the wheel (4 1/2" stack ring magnets) need to be on a solid surface to work? (I mean touch the ground) or there is an axle across its center to support it in mid air so that you place the little rod magnets in a certain way to make it turns?
I have an idea on how it could possibly work but I can be wrong to.

Thank you Tom for sharing your invention. Even if it is just little part at the time.  It makes me think a lot   "even all night long" ;D :D

Joe

@Tom,

What testing are you talking about? Do you or do you not have a working closed-loop SMOT?

Why video of a car? Why not post a video of the device about which you say "[t]his concept and device idea works as I told you"? What is it that works?

Hi Guys,

Here it is.   It may not go anywhere but your going to have fun anyway.  A complete description and diagram.   Tom

Here is the description:   Tom

Hi,

I need to mention that the rods are placed inside 45 degree holes drilled through the roller body wood sides as illustrated.  It looks like the magnet rods are the body axels in the diagram but thats not the case.  The rods are split centering over the axels centerpoints. Thats why I suggested using stacked rods.

Guys-- This may or may not work but its an idea for a car body anyway that the idea/ concept/ device/ may work in??  Lots of room for thought.   You all should have a lot of fun anyway.   Tom 

Interesting concept. Big ring magnets now ordered. Looks like a week or so before I get them  :'(.  Shipping $$ hurts. Hope someone else that already has these magnets can try out this concept. So many things to try.. So little time..
Later
Tom-G

Hi Guys,

If you try this out please post all findings.  i made a very rough car body and tried this out already just now.  If I hold the rod magnets in my hand near where they will be mounted in 45 degree position the large ring magnet travels and drags the car body along.   


As soon as I tried mounting them in the same position with same angle on the car body itself  nothing happens.   Its a real mind blower.  You will have to actually try it to see what I am talking about.  I need a lot of heads to figure this out.   

The whole thing is about as interesting as finding a pair of grannys old combat boots.  Lots of hows, where, and whys.  Ha  Ha.    Tom
 

Thanks Tom  for all this!

You are very kind!    And yes,  we will have lots of fun working on your discovery.

Joe

Hi All,

After working with this setup for a long time I have come to this conclusion.  I may be wrong however.


In laymens terms the ring magnet is like a man in a wheelchair holdind a huge abount of magnets.   You walk up to him and fasten two more magnets to his armrests ( Attach magnets to the vehical you wish to move). Nothing happens as the man in the wheelchair cant PUSH himself with feet off the ground even with the extra load of the magnets you put on the wheelchair arms.

Now you come along from the backside or frontside with a armload of magnets and approch the man from a distance. If  the polaritys of your magnets are just right you can PUSH the man up an inclined plane if needed with a distance between both of you.     Having said all of this what is possible now?


Lets add gravity to the mix and without running out and buying more items lets go the PING PONG route with what we have.  Look at the below diagram and if all forces are balanced correctly the TOTAL forces will never balance and maybe it should run--- forever---?  Tom

Here is the (Ping Pong) or gravity pivot illustration.

Tom

 I do'nt  think this setup is going to work tom... :-\

Nice one Tom

Started playing with the only ring magnet I got here and attached it to one of my wheels as shown below.

Excuse the shaky video attached but holding camera in one hand while trying to hold a lump of magnets in the other is not ideal LOL.

Obviously in the Video my hand is moving the bar and causing the rotation, but what is interesting it how little effort is needed compared to other magnet configurations I have tried on the wheel before.
I should of got someone to hold video camera for me so I can control the bar more and show what I mean, maybe later when the kidz are in!.

Will now try fixing the magnets at the angles you specify and see what happens.

Regards

Sean.

Tom

I have been looking at your "Ping Pong" Idea. At first I didn't think you wouldn't have a chance making it work, but after thinking about it I feel you could get it started.

It would be a balancing act

• Energy build up from the ring magnet.
  This can be controlled by the angle of the beam and the distance from the pivot point and the fixed magnet. This is an important point because the weight of the ring magnet while traveling down the beam needs to gain enough energy to travel far enough into the magnet field of the fixed magnet. Once the ring magnet has closed on the fixed magnet the magnetic field will build to slow then stop the ring magnet
• Overcoming the friction holding the ring magnet fixed to the beam.
  It takes more energy to start an object in motion than it take to keep it in motion. With the ring magnet stopped and the direction of travel going up hill, the question will be if it has first traveled far enough into the field to create a force surfactant enough to break the fiction hold the ring magnet in place.
• Can the ring magnet stored the energy need to travel up the beam and past the pivot point.

After looking at this I think it could work it will just take time.

Good luck.

Hi Guys,

Read this. I need input.

Illustration:


Tom

Hi Tom,

I wonder if the ring magnet in itself (apart from its attractive force to the ball which is useful)  is needed for your setup to rotate?  A well ball-bearing cylinder shaped body of similar size and mass (i.e. a similar sized non-magnet ring or cylinder) would equally be supposed to rotate in the same way like the ring magnet, don't you think?  Of course here I also suppose that your original idea starts moving,  all I want to say the (ring) magnet's role is secondary here. 
In your setup the ball always touches the surface of the ring magnet alongside the Bloch wall, this seems to help keeping up a more stabil mechanical connection between the magnet and the ball.
Well, somehow I 'feel' the ball sooner or later will get stuck between the ring magnet and its rollers after starting their rotation by an initial hand-push because the resultant force of the ball's  'mg'  product comes out from the balls geometric center point (a balanced point with respect to the ball's mass) and due to this I fail to see a force that would keep up the continuous rotation. I do not think the ring's magnetic attraction towards the ball is just this force.  I would liked to be proved wrong with this opinion of course  ;)

Regards,
Gyula

Hi All,

I am wide open for all ideas using large diameter ring magnets in thinking of making a motor. Those big rings sure have the  magnetic power. If you dont have one yet by all means buy at least one and play with it.  You wont think smaller after you see what you can do with it.  I can move steel inside my shop bench drawers just sitting on a stool by it with a ring magnet in hand.  Caution-- Do not put razor blades or sharp ferrous tools anywhere near a large ring magnet within 2 feet!!!!!  I wont make that mistake ever again.

Seans rotating wheel setup shown in his movie is great start from what I see. Sean- How did you make such a nice clear movie clip and transfer it to this site? 

I think if enough people are involved someone is going to find a perfect configuration employing large rings, friction free levitation, SMOT, and gravity.  Some mix of all or some of those ideas will generate a new self running motor.   We just have to find it.  I think that time is getting close.     Tom

Quote from: magnetman12003 on December 23, 2006, 04:55:50 PM
. Sean- How did you make such a nice clear movie clip and transfer it to this site? 

Hi Tom

I have a Digital camera that is a few years old now, so not so good as modern equipment, but it allows me to take digital photos or record short video clips into memory.

I then download them via USB cable to computer and it saves them as MPEG movies.
MPEG movies are too big as the limit of this site is 12 meg a movie, so I use a little converter program called FX Converter from http://fxvideoconverter.com/

This and using a DIVX format squeezes the video down to about a 3rd of its size but still keeps the quality.

So then write message, hit attach file and let it upload.

Regards

Sean.

Hi Sean,

I did that. What Microsoft compression codec did you use to compress your movie files.  There are many codecs out there.  Some however or no good and others will crash your computer.     After the holidays let me know when you have time.  Thanks,  Tom

Hi Tom

My little Cannon digital camera is a few years old now, but as well as taking photos it can be put in Movie mode and records/saves in the MPEG format. In the menus on the Camera I always set it to Best Quality which makes the movies big but is good picture.

Then I use the FXConverter program and use the DIVX 5.1 Codec. I knock the colour quality down from 24bit to 18bit and leave the resolution the same.
This then shrinks the files down to a 3rd of it's size but keeps the quality which is ideal for uploading to here.

Find attached the DIVX Codec.

Regards

Sean.

Quote from: magnetman12003 on December 25, 2006, 11:10:35 AM
Hi Sean,

I did that. What Microsoft compression codec did you use to compress your movie files.  There are many codecs out there.  Some however or no good and others will crash your computer.     After the holidays let me know when you have time.  Thanks,  Tom

Hi All,

Thanks Sean  for sharing that with us. I always made really lousy movie clips and uploading them through Google for conversion did improve quality.  I will give your method a go.  Your movie clips come out real nice and clear on my Windows Media player. As well as the sound.  I viewed your web site with great interest. Saw that you are into many things.  I made a circular device that can levitate a 2 pound ring magnet already similar to one of the things you have constructed.

I am now going to try constructing what you see in the below diagram and drive a Large pencil setup with it.  The trick is to use a long rubberized conveyer belt and space out the drive magnets shown below from the levitated pencil setup which will rotate with great force if the illustration works at all.

The idea is this:  The BELT ring magnet is  magnetically PINNED on top of a  long belt that is free to rotate driven by two non ferrous pullys.    The  BASE ring magnet that holds the BELT magnet in place is secured in any position that allows the BELT magnet to turn.

If the magnetic field between both magnets is properly adjusted the BELT magnet will TRY to roll down the  45 degree angled belt due to gravity but starts to turn IN PLACE because it is "pinned" there by the BASE magnet.

This will cause the belt under it to turn powering any device the top pully is conected to.   Its acually -- if it works-- is a motor idea within its self.   Almost like a improved hamster cage setup.     Need comments.

Tom 

Here is the Levitated Pencil driver thought.

Tom

Hi mramos,

As I see it whatever two ring magnets you use for the Base and belt magnet there will be a balancing act.  Both belt pullys or bearings are made from non ferrous non magnetic material. The  long belt should have a good friction surface for the belt magnet to track on while turning.

The magnetic force between the Belt magnet and the Base magnet should be great enough to keep the Belt magnet in position as illustrated but also be "EXACTLY" adjusted wheras the Belt magnet just starts to turn from the force of gravity pulling it downwards.   You should have an "IN PLACE" rotating movement of the BELT magnet as all its rotating sides are the same and present no magnetic changes as far as the fixed base ring magnet looking at it is concerned.

This Belt magnet now should rotate in place and transmit power to the belt to drive the Large levitated pencil setup we described before. 

If that pencil setup was made on a grand scale there will be a huge torque developed in a short time due to the heavy rotating magnet rings in its own makeup.   That action transmitted back through the belt will only drive the "BELT" magnet to turn faster and faster.

I have not yet constructed this idea so I dont know if it will work...

If it does however it might just run away and blow up as there is no speed control mechanism in place.   The Belt and Base magnet rings should attract one another as mentioned and illustrated.  Personally I cant see a reason why it will not work--- I may be wrong---    Be carefull if you try it.   

Tom

Hi All,

The top pully shown is powering a large levitated pencil setup which will generate lots of torque when spinning.  I illustrated an end of pencil view that the top pulley is driving. A large ring magnet is around it.  In what I plan to build my so called "pencil shaft" alone will be 1.75 inches in diameter.  The ring magnets will have 4.5 inch diameters.    I hope this clears that up.   


Dont forget that the belt and base magnets have to be very carefully adjusted so that the force of gravity on the belt magnet is just a little less than the magnetic forces keeping the magnets bonded together. The heavier the magnets the more force produced.  Proper magnetic bonding should allow the belt magnet to spin in place and never fall off the belt which it now is driving.                         

Tom

Nicer looking than the pencil!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkp7q4P8lI

Regards

Sean.

Hi all,

Picture what Sean just made a movie of. Make something like this on a large scale so when it does rotate it will do so for a long time.  Using larger ring magnets will produce a lot of torque when brought up to speed.


The above will not power itself so think of a long, wide, flat belt wrapped around the midpoint of this levitated and "raised" device.    The "lower" end of the long belt will wrap around an idler pullly. 

On top of the "inclined" belt will be placed a large ring magnet with a good traction surface on its outer circumference.  The magnet will most certainly try to roll down the belt and fall off.  As the magnet rolls down the belt it produces an equal and
opposite force which turns the belt.   The belt in turn will spin the levitated "pencil" device.

But wait-- We dont want the belt magnet to fall off the inclined belt so we put another ring magnet directly below the belt ( fixed base magnet) that will ATTRACT the top belt magnet and hold it in place so it will not roll down the belt and drop off.

By carefully adjusting the distance between both magnets at some point the top belt magnet will start to roll but should - roll in place - as the gravitational force pulling it down the belt is just not enough to overcome the magnetic attraction forces between the magnets.  THE BELT MAGNET AT THAT POINT TURNS/DRIVES THE BELT CONTINUOSLY.  When the proper adjustment point is reached the base magnet must be secured so it does not move.   Keep these facts in mind-- If you have a 10 pound magnet on the belt it will still weigh 10 pounds as no weight is lost as its not magnetically "suspending".   This whole idea is like thinking of a man on a treadmill - running feet going nowhere - BUT THE BELT TURNS. 

Now we hopefully can power the large pencil setup and when it gets spinning faster and faster it should also drive the belt faster and faster.  The power source and the levitated setup compliment each other.  I will worry about speed controll later.   If it works or even blows up I will be happy.

Is this idea wild or not?  I am buying items right now to give it a go.  Working on the inclined ""conveyer"" belt right now.    Tom

A new update of how and why is coming.   

Tom

Hi All,

This is basically the same setup us above but uses sprockets and roller chain to insure the ring magnet riding on top the chain does not slip.   A side and top view is illustrated.  Tom

Here is a view looking down.   Tom

Hi Tom
I don't really think you want to hear what I have to say. By removing the axle ( change from the Minato group drawing), you are now allowing the rolling magnet to be attracted to the  stationary magnet. There is nothing holding it in place. If you use an axle to hold it in place , it will not rotate. Sorry Tom, either way, it does not work.
Peter

Hi Peter,

On all my illustrations I removed the center axle entirely from the large ring magnet riding on top of the roller chain. It seemed to confuse and was not important at all except to index the center point of the magnet while its rolling.  There are large sprockets mounted on each side of this wide heavy magnet.

Having said that -- The point is I want the ENTIRE roller chain magnet to be attracted to the stationary magnet.   Its free now to roll that way with absolutely NOTHING in its way to stop it.   I just did that on a roller chain stretched out on the floor and IT WORKS. 

I am now waiting on 4 sprockets to mount the chain as you see in the illustration.

The ring magnet riding the top of the chain will ride its lenght to get to the stationary magnet that is attracting it.  I already proved that above.  I also know it will drag the chain itself with it in that direction as its lower sprocket teeth will dig into the chain for traction.


With the ratchet mechanism mounted on one of the sprocket axles as illustrated the chain belt can now move only one way. And thats the way you select with the ratchet mechanism.

We dont want the chain belt to move in the direction the roller belt magnet wants to head so we block the belt from moving that way with the ratchet mechanism.  THE CHAIN BELT IS ENTIRELY FREE TO MOVE IN THE OTHER DIRECTION HOWEVER.

So the chain belt riding ring magnet starts to roll the belt towards the stationary magnet.

Remember as this magnet rolls in one direction it has to FORCE ( Newtons third law) the belt chain under it in the other direction  The belt chain is free to turn that direction and does.  Meanwhile all this time however there is the force of attraction trying to pull " BOTH TRACK AND THE RING MAGNET" riding the track to the fixed ring magnet. 

The track chain belt itself is blocked from traveling that direction (by the ratchet mechanism) so what is left is the ring magnet riding on top of the track chain "rotating in place".  The ring magnet "CAN" rotate in the direction the track is free to tun in.

Why dont you think it will work the way I described?    I am always open for comments positive or negative.   Its a learning curve.     Tom

Quote from: magnetman12003 on January 27, 2007, 12:12:57 AM

Remember as this magnet rolls in one direction it has to FORCE ( Newtons third law) the belt chain under it in the other direction 

Tom
If the magnet is fixed in position, Newton's law does not apply because the magnet is not exerting a equal and opposite force on the chain. It is simply being attracted to the stationary magnet.
If the magnet is not fixed then Newton's law does not apply because it will move to the stationary magnet and move the chain with it until the two magnets come together.
There is no force which causes the magnet to rotate.
Peter

Hi Peter,

I am constructing this never the less to see.

You might be perfectly right but it costs less than $50 to check out the idea. 


Tom

Good idea Tom. That's the only way to prove it to yourself. I tried this on a small scale with two sphere magnets and the only reason the magnet rotates as it is drawn towards the stationary magnet is the drag created by the friction between the floor and the magnet. If you hold the stationary magnet directly above the other magnet it just jumps straight up without rotating.
Peter

Hi Peter,

I have ware housed in my garage about 100 pounds of failed motor attempts minus all the hundreds of magnets which I keep seperately.  If this does not work out it will head in that direction also. I am having fun doing this all the time even if things dont work out. I am way past always being dissapointed.  If things work out so much the better. I am patiently waiting for that day to happen. 

If I ever loose interest I will dump everything on Ebay and some lucky fellow will get a bargain who loves to experiment with permanent magnets.    In the meantime my interest keeps me holding on to all of it.

Tom

Hi All,

Some new thoughts.

Tom

Hi,

Here is an explanation of the above illustration.

Tom

Quote from: hartiberlin on July 12, 2006, 10:42:03 AM
Hi,
here is a real new great magnet Video setup for a working SMOT ramp
with a big rollaway from Tom Ferko:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6531588179303444480

The question is if this device is in level. What happens if the device is placed in the opposite direction?
It will then probably not work.

Br.

Vidar

Hi Vidar,

I only did this  --my first ---experiment on a level surface and it worked in a linear way.

So far I have not found a way to keep heavy ring magnets rolling continuously in a circular fashion.  I am wide open for fresh ideas.

I keep trying however as these magnets have a lot of magnetic energy which I believe when finally tapped in mechanical way will result in an all self powered motor. 

Its all in wishfull thinking right now but I figure soon someone will find a way -- maybe using a little help from gravity.

Tom,

Hi All,

I am starting to build this.

Tom

You have a force between the magnets and gravity. The sum is a force 90 degrees on the circles tangent - in which does not provide any rotation. Even the steel ball is pulling the rolling magnet back a bit. And the force between them will also be 90 degrees on the circles tangent between them. Again the sum is 0 force to make it rotate. you have to provide a force that is more or less than 90 degrees on the tangent where the magnet is touching, but this is, as far as I can see, not possible without external energy.

Br.

Vidar

Hi Vidar,

Any ideas such as a tiny electromagnet pulsing at the right time and position to offset the larger working forces as soon as they attempt to equalize.  Then always an imbalance will be present.

If that is possible then a working motor could easily power the smaller controlling electronic device.  If you have a suggestion illustrate it.     


Tom

Hi All,

Here is an illustration of maybe how a very small electronic pulse circuit could control the larger forces of attraction and allow gravity to pull the ring magnet inside the drum back down to start over again.   

The repulsive electronic pulse should be at the exact same time that the powerfull forces of both ring magnets equalize and take a lockup.

What do you think?   A smaller force controlling a larger force and in the end the larger force could easily power the smaller force if designed correctly.

Tom

A small pulse of energy will probably make it work, but this amount of energy will provide as well a small amount of motion. If you can make it work in some kind of resonance mode, the rolling magnet will probably be able to move as much backwards as forward except the small change of energy you're putting in. If the magnets could be controlled like a transistor, by applying very little energy to control high power, this would work. However, it's not (yet) possible to control  magnetism that way.

Br.

Vidar

Hi all,

Here is my drum track idea.

The best to date and I have the items to make it.


Letter to follow will explain all.

Tom

This letter explains the drum track idea. By the way the drum --will turn-- a while back I got one full rev with great ease each and every time.

I used only one large external ring magnet shown in the fixed magnet position then.   With the extra ring magnet on its own tracking seperatly inside the drum now it should be a different story I hope.    Open for comment on this.   

Tom

Quote from: magnetman12003 on February 15, 2007, 07:48:29 PM
Hi all,

Here is my drum track idea.

The best to date and I have the items to make it.


Letter to follow will explain all.

Tom

The magnets around the drum track will in those positions not repel or attract the ring magnets - the only force will be the attraction of the ferrite in the magnets. The ring magnet inside the track will stick a bit to the magnets outside. The ring magnet outside will have the same effect to the magnets outside the drum track. Hmmm... I cannot see that this will work - even not after reading the letter. I'll take a closer look - maybe I have overlooked something.

Br.

Vidar

Hello Tom, just adding my 3 cents.  I added a comment on one of your original google videos of the smot ramp.
  Instead of having your ring magnet drop off the ramp and roll, have you tried having it roll down hill ?  Than it could roll a little ways toward another set of magnets and be drawn up hill again to start the process over again.  The weight of it should be enough to keep it going past the sticky point once it reaches to top of the hill.
  So your circular track would also have hills or waves to help generate forward momentum.  I think this is one of the key (and easier) ways to create continuous motion.  The torque or inertia created by the magnet has to be enough to propel the object to the beginning of the next magnetic field (and using gravity to assist all the more with oscillating up and down track)  Or maybe a track that oscillates back and forth like the toy on the picture I'll post.
  As far as this design being useful in some way, if not by one motor maybe by many of the same design working together.
  Also, you could use a metal ring or wheel instead of a magnet.  Maybe your way works the best, just find it easier because your not fighting the magnetic pull as much.  And I got more forward thrust with steel or metal object on smot ramp because, again, there's less magnetic pull.
  Or maybe the double wheel over an inverted track as Light posted earlier (I'll repost it)

Also, as far as the magnetic gate your using and the sticky spot problem, check the topic i started here: 

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1958.0.html

Or maybe you have already.  If so, I hope it helps.


(Statement from Topic:
Here is what I see:  Magnetic Force - which can generate Torque/Inertia Force ? which can be continued by Oscillations/Wave Patterns ? which can be Designed/Engineered Mechanically.)

regards,
gr

george_roanoke:

Interesting thaught about passing the sticky point. However, a sticky point, if not stopping the magnet, it will slow down the speed of the magnet enough to not having enough downhill the oposite way to start over again. A sticky point will allways slow down the system. You must find a workaround to avoid the sticky point. There is a reason why SMOT does not work in a closed loop - all videos about them is a short simple track where the start pont is released beyond the sticky point.

To avoid a sticky point, you must find a way to balance between attraction and repel. A magnet with a piece of iron on it will repel an equal pole until the equal pole is close enough to attract the iron with the same force as the repel of the equal pole. If you can make a device that pushes a magnet into such setup, you've probably managed to avoid sticky points that slows the system down - and the only thing left is a system that speeds up the device to make it self running.

Br.

Vidar

 
  No Vidar, I?m right, your wrong.  lol.  Just kidding?..  I see your point.  I would think the slowing down of the magnet ring would be more of an issue on a flat track.  With the track going up and down it would seem the ring , though slowed some, still has no choice but to proceed to a place of rest?which is where the magnetic field would start again.  This obviously relies on the strength of the magnets, the steepness of the incline and the weight of the ring to get it to this point.

  I believe the whole issue of the strong magnetic field slowing down the ring can be avoided though.  If the magnetic field diminished from its strongest point to a weaker one, just to the point where gravity and inertia are stronger, than the flux drag would be less of an issue.
  I tested this idea of low to high, high to low magnetic fields.  Basically creating a static magnetic field in a sine waves pattern (or oscillating magnetic field).  I describe this in more detail at the topic I started here:  http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1958.0.html

I also describe how to build and test this for yourself. Here is the text drawing showing the magnets stacked:


                    -
                -   -
            -   -   -
        -   -   -   -   <---small magnets stacked in half wave. 
    -   -   -   -   -       Has same effect as one large rectangle
-   -   -   -   -   -       magnet on diagonal slant.  Both produce
^                   ^       low to high field.
low               high
field              field

                   
                          -   
                     -    -    -
                -    -    -    -   -
           -    -    -    -    -   -   - <-small magnets stack in full wave
      -    -    -    -    -    -   -   -   -     
  -   -    -    -    -    -    -   -   -   -  -
^                     ^                     ^
low                 high                   low
field               field                   field



    -        -        -
   ---     ---     ---
  -----  -----  -----   <-small magnets stacked in wave pattern on this side
---------------------
   ________________   
   ________________    <--------- nonmagnetic track for steel ball
         
     --------------------
       ----- ----- -----         
        ---    ---    ---  <-- small magnets stacked on this side
          -      -       -


The drawing also describes what I was talking about as far using a metal object instead of a magnet ( the steel ball).  I have some small sphere magnets that I tried instead of the steel ball, which worked, but not as fast.

I?m suggesting all this to possibly prove the concept of Tom?s design.  The efficiency  of its speed and friction would have to be worked out later.



( Perhaps another way to say the previous statement is this:

Magnetic\Gravitational Force can be Mechanically Engineered\Designed to Oscillate\Alternate (Wave Patterns) to create continuous Torque\Inertia. )


gr

Will a sine-pattern of iron on the magnet work in the same way? I mean, in stead of stacking several magnets to achieve an alternating magnetic flux...Where it is less iron the magnetic loop-back is longer than where it is more iron....hard for a norwegian to explain.

A simple drawing will tell:

EDIT: The picture show a saw tooth pattern, but the magnetic field will not be a saw tooth pattern.

Br.

Vidar

  I was wondering the same thing myself.  I haven't tested anything like this yet, but I've heard it mentioned that magnets are attracted to the thickest part of a piece of iron--such as one shaped like a wedge.
  The saw tooth pattern you've drawn would possibly work well for the top of the hill on the alternating up and down track mentioned previously.  The inertia created by the pull of the magnet field to the top should be enough to thrust to disk pass the hill top and start down the other side, where once the field is diminished weak enough gravity should start taking over.  A curved downhill would be better for allowing continuous motion for it to just start up the next hill, where the magnetic pull would again begin to increase.

gr

Hi Guys,

I am back from a short vacation and just finished reading all the recent posts.

Robert Calloways web site has a lot of infomation as well as movies showing his LINEAR permanent magnet V track concept --- "WORKING".  This is a must reading for anyone interested.  Check out his web page.     http://www.callowayengines.com 

I have taken his V track concept a step further and hopefully this might work out with the rotary form I already illustrated.  I already know the drum with a single large V permanent magnet formation bonded to its outer diameter will turn. Bin there - done that.  Place a large ring magnet near the drum configured like this and watch the drum turn. A single revolution every time.  I did this with an aluminum drum but a wood or plastic drum would be better.  No drag.

Magnet spacing and magnet power will be critical and will take time adjusting to get this to work.  Gravity also is in the mix also as the drum is always heavy on the right side. 

With the ring magnet inside the drum assisting the fixed external magnet in powering the drums rotation now both magnets act as track runners .  In this case the track is doing the running and only one ring magnet is rotating.

I think it will be a fun project and am persuing it.   Does anyone have access to a CAD program where they can make a 3D illustration of my crude freehand drawings?  I would love to see that.   I am posting another color drawing showing the side and end views.   Red is North pole.  Blue is South pole. 


Tom

Hi All,

Here is the latest drawing.  I hope someone can render a CAD 3D drawing of it. 

Tom

Hi All,

Guys0 check this out:   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCr3lOhMJCg&NR

Tom

Quote from: magnetman12003 on February 24, 2007, 06:02:05 PM
Hi All,

Guys0 check this out:   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCr3lOhMJCg&NR

Tom

This wheel will spin because he moves the magnet away from the sticky point. To move a magnet away from a sticky point, requires energy. The energy in the spinning wheel will not be enough to move the magnet away from the sticky point itself.

PS! Magnets does not store energy, hence no energy can be extracted out of it. However, magnetism works like kinetic energy, but require demagnetization to perform work - but then the magnet will not work "forever" and provide free energy by doing this.

So in a figurative sense the wheel works the same way as he had a ball, let it run down a track, and lift it into start position again.

Br.

Vidar

Hi Vidar,

I dont believe a sticky spot is present at the end of the track since either side of the track has the same polarity.  One side is north and one side is south.  Attraction is all we are dealing with here.

The terminology is called regauging.    When one ring magnet reaches the end of the track and at this regauging point the other ring magnet is at a different point on the track and attracting the track to it. That causes the drum to turn.   All the while the drum is heavier on the right side due to the displacement of the ring magnet riding inside the drum by attraction to the fixed ring magnet.

That in itself should be more than enough to allow that regauging spot at the end of the track to pass by.

Not enough power to do this??   Then lets place two wide ring magnets inside the drum "repelling" each other -- but both will run the V track.  The fixed external ring  magnet will attract both of them to the always heavy right side of the drum and it will run the track as well.

We now have 3 track runners and gravity at work with only one regauging spot on the track.  Odds stack favorably for a self running motor.


Tom

  Tom, perhaps the weight of some rotor arms on the side of the drum will give it an extra gravity and momentum thrust also.  Like, again, the toy on the picture below.  Four arms may work the best, but initially I was thinking an arm right even with the regauging point mounted on the side of the drum, and another directly across the diameter of the drum for balance.  So when the regauging point comes around, the weight of the arm will help drive it pass that point and also help propel the drum along.  Like I said, four ( or three) may work better, as they do with the toy on the picture. 
  Hopefully the strength of your magnets are enough to deal with the extra weight.

gr

Hi George,

Sounds like a good idea and its worth a try.

I already have a 5 pound ring magnet - 6 inches in lenght and 3 inches in diameter.  I am going to place inside the drum I already have.

Its an old 10 inch diameter aluminum cylinder shaped pot I converted balaced to perfection. The shaft is grade 316 stainless steel.  Non magnetic.  A wood or plastic drum would be much better and if this works then I will go that way. In the meantime I will use what I have.

My external fixed magnet will be 6 inches in lenght and 4.5 inches in diameter.  Its only 3 inches long as illustrated

My magnets are extremely powerful and when I made the drum work ( V track configuration) a couple of years ago it turned with great ease.   At that time I was stumped as to how to regauge the tracks ending.  I only hand held and pumped the fixed magnet near the drum to do this.

Weights at key points can be used as long as drum balace is kept in check.

I am posting a photo of the drum I have already marked out. Shown is the end and start of the V track in red ink.  I have 32 small powerfull grade 50 magnets to layout and bond to this drum surface.  16 on each side.     Tom

Quote from: magnetman12003 on February 25, 2007, 05:06:32 PM
Hi Vidar,

I dont believe a sticky spot is present at the end of the track since either side of the track has the same polarity.  One side is north and one side is south.  Attraction is all we are dealing with here.

The terminology is called regauging.    When one ring magnet reaches the end of the track and at this regauging point the other ring magnet is at a different point on the track and attracting the track to it. That causes the drum to turn.   All the while the drum is heavier on the right side due to the displacement of the ring magnet riding inside the drum by attraction to the fixed ring magnet.

That in itself should be more than enough to allow that regauging spot at the end of the track to pass by.

Not enough power to do this??   Then lets place two wide ring magnets inside the drum "repelling" each other -- but both will run the V track.  The fixed external ring  magnet will attract both of them to the always heavy right side of the drum and it will run the track as well.

We now have 3 track runners and gravity at work with only one regauging spot on the track.  Odds stack favorably for a self running motor.


Tom

First:
The sticky point is where the magnetic poles are closest to the poles on the wheel. If he hadn't moved his hand, this wheel would stop. The wheel has the same weight all around

Second:
"When one ring magnet reaches the end of the track and at this regauging point the other ring magnet is at a different point on the track and attracting the track to it".
This will not be enough. What you do is just to make a smoother run, less force in each sticky point and less force in each "atraction modes", and the wheel will eventually stop. If you make it run smooth enough, the wheel will behave the same way as the magnets weren't there.

Third:
Why haven't he, or anyone, done this already - and show us a working machine with no human interference at all?

I'm just very skeptic, but I will always keep trying make one myself :)

Br.

Vidar

Hi All,

Check out this video and you can see the sticky or regauging spot problem has been solved.  Two long V tracks are tied together.  We only need to tie the ends of one long V track with the drum V track idea.       Tom

Quote from: magnetman12003 on February 26, 2007, 12:24:08 PM
Hi All,

Check out this video and you can see the sticky or regauging spot problem has been solved.  Two long V tracks are tied together.  We only need to tie the ends of one long V track with the drum V track idea.       Tom

very nice.

I just had a funny thought ;D:

A track all the way around the planet would probably work. :D

Nice job gentlemen.

Quote from: Low-Q on February 26, 2007, 07:54:36 AM

Quote from: magnetman12003 on February 25, 2007, 05:06:32 PM
Hi Vidar,

I dont believe a sticky spot is present at the end of the track since either side of the track has the same polarity.  One side is north and one side is south.  Attraction is all we are dealing with here.

The terminology is called regauging.    When one ring magnet reaches the end of the track and at this regauging point the other ring magnet is at a different point on the track and attracting the track to it. That causes the drum to turn.   All the while the drum is heavier on the right side due to the displacement of the ring magnet riding inside the drum by attraction to the fixed ring magnet.

That in itself should be more than enough to allow that regauging spot at the end of the track to pass by.

Not enough power to do this??   Then lets place two wide ring magnets inside the drum "repelling" each other -- but both will run the V track.  The fixed external ring  magnet will attract both of them to the always heavy right side of the drum and it will run the track as well.

We now have 3 track runners and gravity at work with only one regauging spot on the track.  Odds stack favorably for a self running motor.


Tom

First:
The sticky point is where the magnetic poles are closest to the poles on the wheel. If he hadn't moved his hand, this wheel would stop. The wheel has the same weight all around

Second:
"When one ring magnet reaches the end of the track and at this regauging point the other ring magnet is at a different point on the track and attracting the track to it".
This will not be enough. What you do is just to make a smoother run, less force in each sticky point and less force in each "atraction modes", and the wheel will eventually stop. If you make it run smooth enough, the wheel will behave the same way as the magnets weren't there.

Third:
Why haven't he, or anyone, done this already - and show us a working machine with no human interference at all?

I'm just very skeptic, but I will always keep trying make one myself :)

Br.

Vidar

Hi Vidar,

I keep on trying now that I am retired. Lots of time.  Folks have little time to do this while working and taking care of their family.  Some one might have invented this  already and waiting out a patent that will never come their way after investing thousands of dollars.  In the mean time it might be kept hidden from the general public for one of two reasons.  Personal monatary gain,fame, or both.  I am interesed in neither.

The patent office rejects free energy or perpetual motion devices.  For whatever reason the military might be contacted and step in to confiscate it if its to good. Your left with nothing to show for your time, effort and money.  Save yourself a lot of headaches and post all you know on the internet. Its dated and that in itself shows who thought of it first.   What you post might not have any merit but I swallow my pride and keep trying.

I posted a lot of motor ideas and attempts that went belly up.  This latest drum and magnet idea is the best of them all and shows the most merit in my eyes.  All done without electricity or electronics.

Robert Calloway is the inventor of the linear magnet V track by the way. I am just running with his freely posted ideas and using them in an attempt to make a rotary drum/magnet motor. Thats my concept.   If it works it will be posted and goes out free to the world.

Tom

Quote from: magnetman12003 on February 26, 2007, 12:24:08 PM
Hi All,

Check out this video and you can see the sticky or regauging spot problem has been solved.  Two long V tracks are tied together.  We only need to tie the ends of one long V track with the drum V track idea.       Tom

This is nice. Why is it a barrier at the end of this track? A path without obstacles would be even more interesting to watch.

Another thought: The V-track is by my opinion just a way to gear up (Or delay) the interaction between the magnets in the V-track and the one on the wagon. If it's possible to avoid sticky points, as claimed, a V-track will just be a waste of lots of magnets.

A third thought: As long the wagon is released where its no sticky point, I believe it will pass the first, and baybe a second sticky point if there was more Vs. What happen if the wagon is released right after the first V?

What happen if the V-track is slacker or steeper by arrange the V-shape wider or narrower, if you know what I mean.

What has been done to avoid/reduce the sticky point, without reducing the forward force?

Br.

Vidar

Here is my theory about SMOT:

Hi,

Here is my oppinion about the force at the end of the first V track labled B.

The ring magnet does not easily run the second V because its starting point has a much shorter distance between the V track rails at that point.  Thats in comparison to the very wide distance between the rails at the start point A.  Force B is much greater than Force A.  Thats the so called sticky spot.

We assume that point B is a sticky spot because enough power to move it further down the rails from A to point C is not present.

The starting point from A through C needs to be built up or stacked with additional magnets just enough to overcome the tendancy of the ring magnet to ROLL BACK at point B.     --- OR --   Maybe the first track at point B can be elevated enough so that the ring magnet will DROP OFF its end to somewhere between point A through C which now is at a lower elevation.  That should leave the powerfull backward attracting force at point B behind it.    Tom

magnetman12003:

Probably I understood you wrong, but do you mean if you lower the magnets in the end of the V, the roll back will decrease?

Br.

Vidar

Hi All,

This Staggered V track might work with heavy magnet track runners but I dont think light track runners will hold steady.  In this case there is never a point on the track where the WIDE ENDS of the V shape are directly apart from one another causing runner roll back.  We know it as a sticky spot or regauging point.  Take a look at the very first page of this forum and check out my working linear stagger track movie.

My illustrated stagger track if placed UNDER the runner magnet might workout as it did in the working linear track.  This is the exact track  seup I am bonding onto my drum right now.   Each square on the grid represents 1/2 inch.  My runner magnet is that large.  Red north.   Blue south.

Most important to remenber that only the centerpoint of the round ring magnet is contacting the track below it at any time.  As you look down on it it looks like all the magnetic surface is in contact with the track.   Not so.  The runner will pull in the noted direction without dead or sticky spots.


Hey guys,   The setup I showed you before slowed down considerably at about 3/4 revolution.  This setup is what I am placing on my drum right now.  Notice it is one large V shaped track but the magnets on the rails are STAGGERED  Starts at 2 inch spacing and ends with 6 inch spacing.   

Why stagger the track rail magnets illustrated by Xs?   Simply put look at the wide end of the V track now and you see no magnet directly opposite each other that will cause a dead, sticky, or regauging spot.  The runner should fly past that point easily.   After the wide track end passes maybe doubling up the first two track starter magnets will be the extra kick to keep the runner in motion??   We will see.

We all know the long V track works but concerns are raised about the sticky spot at the tracks end.   Track magnet staggering should put that concern to rest.

If this works I will be the first to show a movie of it.   Its a chore bonding the individual magnets all over the drums surface with accuracy.


Tom

Quote from: Low-Q on February 27, 2007, 03:04:09 PM
magnetman12003:

Probably I understood you wrong, but do you mean if you lower the magnets in the end of the V, the roll back will decrease?

Br.

Vidar

At the wide end of this V track if its elevated enough the runner should be able to go uphill to its end then by its inertia it will drop of the track and fall a bit to start of the new track in front of it.   This idea is impossible in a rotary configuration.  Only linear.

Tom

Hi All,

Checkout the newer illustration above.  Tom

Magnetman12003:

Please make a video of this too. I'm sure some one near by have a camera if you don't. I'm also sure you can take video with your digital camera as well. I'm quite fuzzy about videos, but a video is very convincing - not only a lot of explanations, and how close one are to make an over unity motor ("I just have to do this and that, adjust some here, and fix some there") - you know all the promising words, but no convincing work?
I'm encouraging: Make a working prototype, and videotape it ;)

Btw: The aluminum can will resist rotation in a magnetic field - it will work as a break, so to speak. Use a plastic can instead - a sewage pipe made from plastic or similar.

Br.

Vidar

Hi All,

Read all the below.

This setup seems to work the best.  To many problems with others.

Here is the photo.   Tom

You might need these to actually MAKE that design...


Radially magnetized magnets: http://www.zhaobao-magnet.com/english/pro_13.htm

Hi all,

I am using three - five pound ring magnets as illustrated.  On a carpeted floor they will repel (move) each other at a distance of 17 inches.  They are repelling each other hard  right now but cant roll as positioned.

Tom

Hi All,

Check out the below.

This is the latest mod I am working on.   Getting close.  Tom

This is where I am right now.

The runner is almost ready to go over the centerpoint by the repel force of the fixed magnet.  All I have to do now is shorten the balance beam somewhat to allow the fixed magnets to rest on the baseboard so I can secure them. Thats once I find the spot for them that allows this device to work. 

Yes - the two 5 pound magnets you see are in a repel mode right now. The stop wedges you see are to keep the magnets from accidentily rolling away and damaging my wifes new table.  She would kill me if she saw this setup on it.  It was the best illuminated spot in the house for a photo and she missed seeing this creation. Oh well.

If I pushed the fixed magnet any closer to the runner it will roll down on the other side of center.

I have not yet been able to center balance the runner magnet which is a good thing.

Also notice how close the balance beam is to the baseboard.  The higher you raise the beam the harder it is for the fixed magnets to push the runner upwards on the beam.

You will have to experiment with whatever you are using if you try this.

Tom

      CHECK BELOW

Hi mramos,

Does anything below look like what you made?
Click the U tube links.   These are ball bearing rail guns.


http:/www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxkZaYYSHFs

http:/www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKOMH81pss8


Tom

Hi all,

I have been at this for better than 30 years and this is the closest I have ever been.

I have tried about 2000 ways to use just permanent magnets and/with iron alone in different configurations on a quest to convert magnetic forces directly into a rotating mechanical force.

Just to many problems to deal with unless you use electronics. The Paul Sprain motor for example. That then defeats the self runner or perpetual motion idea you might have started with.  I elected to keep electronics and electricity out of this.

Adding gravity into what you are constructing from magnets seems to be the best answer I have found so far. Go repel alone or attract alone and add gravity someway. Gravity power is real cheap.  Ha.


Tom

Hi All,

In the very last illustration I posted a balance beam that had to be shortened so the fixed magnets were resting on the base board. I already did this after a lot of experimenting with the repel power my magnets can deliver.  You must experiment with your ring magnet power and a lot of construction distance variables in order to make this work. 

The spacing of the fixed ring magnets is critical relative to the runner magnet.  If you can place each fixed magnet on a platform  that can be easily adjusted, moved, and locked into place so much the better.

I cant claim it will work using small light ring magnets.  I am using 3 heavy five pound ring magnets and found my balace beam total lenght needed to be 13 1/8 inch.

The ring magnet was "ALMOST" ready to go over the beams centerpoint on the inclined beam you can see in my last illustration. 

You will find that extra forcing or compressing the runner magnet closer to the fixed magnet by hand and suddenly releasing it that it will now shoot over center with a great deal of force.

What you have done is the same thing gravity pulling on the ring magnet coming down the inclined beam does.  The resultant extra compression of the repel forces will propel/bounce the runner magnet back the other way and the cycle repeats itself again and again. The balance beam goes into a see - saw type action.  The runner does not center itself on the  balance point as you think it will do.  Thats an old myth. 

I am doing this right now.  Unbelievably simple!!    If I get this to operate for one week straight I will make a movie. I dont know what other problems may pop up so I am still calling this a device insted of a usable self powered motor.   Tom

Do you mean it is swaying up and down on its own for hours with no energy input? If that's the case you don't need to wait to see it working for a week. Make a video right away and let's try to independently reproduce it.

Hi All,

I still am experimenting with this but it still needs some more tweeking.

So far its the best thing I have ever run across par none.

When I am satisfied I will tell all what magnets I used and all dimentions of the balance beam framework that worked out the best using them.

Tom

Hi All,

The device still needs some more work as described below.

It appears that the fixed magnets have to be able to roll back and forth (a little) on a  slightly tapered uphill grade.   Normally when the runner goes over the centerpoint  it encounters the force field from the other fixed magnet.  I found there is very little room for the back and forth see- saw action.  Its real touchy to find just the precise spot.  It works then quits. Make an adjustment - it works then quits. Ect. Cant have that. 

So-- I found the fixed magnet must be allowed to bump rolled "UPHILL" a bit on a slightly tapered grade when the runner rolls over the balance point and comes down.  The runner now pushes the fixed magnet backwards up its slight grade A BIT and at the same time its compressing the magnetic field between them.  There is room now for the runner to drop lower on the downward leg of the balance beam.

The runner then is bumped back up over the centerpoint of the beam by the gravity assisted compressed magnetic field.

In the meantime the fixed magnet roll returns (by gravity) to the lowest end of its tapered grade close to the end of the balance beam. Its ready to repeat the cycle all over again. 

I am working now to see just how much of a tapered grade I need under the fixed magnets to sustain balance beam motion indefinetly.   I guess I wont be calling them "fixed" magnets in the future so adjustable might be a better word.   I will make another diagram illustrating that.

Tom

Hi All,

I am now seeking the taper thickness and lenght to allow the now "adjustable" end magnets to roll a little.

Tom

Hi,

I am working to find the best taper for the adjustable end magnets.  Lenght and thickness. With the runner on beam the end adjustable magnets would have to be held in place.  Lots of forces in play. Took photo minus runner magnet.

Tom

hi tom,
i don't know if you have been watching the "twelve times overunity" board here , but, i think it might be of some help.  if you add a simple pendulum to the ends of your balance beam you just might be able to "kill two birds with one stone!"  the pendulum effect on your balance beam might just give you and the Milkovic bunch the answers your looking for.  not to mention the rest of us "dreamers." ;D

sam

hey tom, talk about using gravity to get over the ramp,  WHOOP THERE IT IS!!!!

SAM

Quote from: magnetman12003 on March 29, 2007, 12:36:56 PM
Hi,

I am working to find the best taper for the adjustable end magnets.  Lenght and thickness. With the runner on beam the end adjustable magnets would have to be held in place.  Lots of forces in play. Took photo minus runner magnet.

Tom

looks great! please post video(s).

Quote from: supersam on March 29, 2007, 11:39:28 PM
hey tom, talk about using gravity to get over the ramp,  WHOOP THERE IT IS!!!!

SAM

this gave me lots of new ideas.

thanks tom for discovering and sharing too.

peace

Hi Guys,

Thanks Sam for your great idea about using the pendulum.  Can you post a rough illustration of how you think it might look?

After a long study and playing with this device I now see how the pendulum concept definetely can tye in and make it work. On this device the tapered ramp needed under both end adjustable magnets points to the fact that a pendulum is required.   I am going to make a rough illustration  of a possible way to do this and post it.

With the huge free energy think tank out there I hope someone may better any device idea illustrations and post it.   We all can benifit and maybe get this going.

Tom

Hi All,

This is my rendering of how the pendulum effect might get this device to work correctly.

Note that stop blocks are in place to keep both end magnets from maybe slamming into the balance beam ??

I personally think the next illustration is a lot better idea with lots more merit.

Only one pendulum is needed.  Work is done on both ends of its arc swing.


Tom

Hi All,

This is the best way I can figure out to intergrate the pendulum swing with a see-saw effect.     The pendulum weight will have to be determined.  Thats why the question mark.

Tom

tom,
the second drawing seems to me to be a totally new concept.  it looks great!  the whole idea behind the Milkovic dual oscilating pendulum is that it only has a pendulum on one end of a balnce beam and still the osciliations of the pendulum produce an incredible amount of force on the balnce beam and cause it to oscilate, however, there is only one powerstroke. falling, when the pendulum mass is weightless at the top of it's swing.

the thing that made me think this was something that could help, is the fact you need just a little help to switch your ramp, and the Milkovik system needs some way to connect all that power to keep it's pendulum swinging.

your idea of connecting both ends of the balance beam to the 'Y' yoke and the pendulum seems like a fantastic way to create a power stroke on both ends of your "tri-osclilating" system. think about it, pendulum-beam-magnets.  everything oscilating to help.  now if we could just hook this up to a TPU we really might have something.  :o  :o :o

sam

Hi Guys,

Think about a kid swinging on a chain swing in a schoolyard.  -- Here comes the theory--

Say the kid weighs 100 pounds.   If he kicks his feet out when the swing is at its apex he will go higher and higher with every kick to a certain point.  He can do this for hours on end without much effort on his part just by shifting his 100 pound weight.  He can even do it forever should he live that long at the same weight of 100 pounds.   ALL DONE ONLY BY SHIFTING HIS WEIGHT ( LEG KICK) AT A PRECISE TIME.

This is the perfect example of a perpetual swinging  pendulum operating the same way as the very last illustration I posted.


Now lets focus on two kids shifting their weight around on a schoolyard see-saw.

The see- saw will go up and down determined by where the real weight is.  
That weight shift is akin to the kick the kid gives to the swing to make it go higher and higher on the pendulum swing.

The runner ring magnet if properly positioned on top of this articulating device will provide the extra kick as the kid does on the school yard swing at its highest point.

This kick happens on "BOTH" sides of the pendulum swing apex !!!  Lots of power!!!

The force of gravity pulling the runner down the balance beam supplys both the weight shift and pendulum kick.

The real trick is to have the runner magnet distance adjusted to fall to the lowest position just a split second ""AFTER"" THE PENDULUM HAS REACHED ITS HIGEST POINT in the arc swing.  If the runner hits the lowest position "BEFORE" that time the pendulum effect will slowly deteriorate.

That runner magnet will never crash around  from side to side as both end magnets will provide the needed repel/bounce cushioning to keep that from happening.

Well what do you think of this theory guys? Shoot holes in it if you think it wont work. Are we going to make this self runner device operational or what?


Tom

Its easy to construct.   Worth a try.

I am going to do it.

Tom

Hi Guys,

Just to lighten the whole illustration you see above I found that stacking many small rectangular neos together works.    My runner ring magnet measures 3 inches thick.

I made a small powerfull bar magnet that measures 3 inches long. I stacked twelve 1/4 inch thick grade 50 neodymium magnets together and formed a 3 inch bar magnet that  does the same repelling job as the large fixed end ring magnets you see on the illustration.

Its way smaller and much lighter than the fixed end ring magnets. Just as powerfull if not more so. Much easier to mount.

Ok here is something that I would like a person that likes math to figure out:

If I measured the weight of the whole balance beam, beam magnets, minus the weight of the frame what  math might you use to determine the weight of the pendulum itself and the lenght, weight of the pendulum rod? 

Something that would put me in the ballpark constructing this device.  Realize that the weight can be adjusted by screwing the weight up or down on the pendulum rod.

Tom

The longer balance beam is illustrated with magnetic (repel) ends not yet mounted on the beam. Next I will make the support frame. Plastic sides neeed to be installed to keep the runner from rolling off the beam.   Need to play with the runner weight verses the pendulum weight. Then comes the exact moment when the ring runner bottoms out ( bounces) on  repell cushioned forces mounted on both beams ends. 

That split second timing is the key or holy grail that will determine if this device works as planned.   In that split second is the extra bouncing kick the pendulum needs while at the top of "ALL" arc swings to keep it swinging forever.

Tom

you rule tom,

i guess i forgot to tell you, it's like balancing a chair on two legs.  good luck though!!!  i just figured it out myself.

lol
sam

hey tom,
don't give up!  ican ride ba six foot unicycle and juggle three balls at one time!

lol
sam

hell tom,

I got, spell checker in my tenth grade year and still I don't use it !!!

lol
sam

Hi Sam,

I almost have the support frame finished and am moving along.  I am not going to give up on this one. Everything indicates it should work if balanced right.

Right now construction is a guesstimate here and a guesstimate there.  This is the most interesting device I have ever attempted to build.

Looking way down the road if this works engineering can: Use a precision "linear" shaft pillow block bearing - Wrap a donut ring magnet around it - Install a long 316 grade stainless steel linear rod through the bearing/donut assembly. That package can slide back and forth very easily on the rod mounted topside on the balance beam. Repelling itself at balance beam ends. All Friction will be kept to the utmost minimum. All that is expensive but can also be done.  Food for thought later.  In the meantime the most inexpensive way to construct this device is as described.

The only tools I used were a bandsaw, drillpress, screwdriver, a little wood glue, and some sandpaper. Nothing exotic.  If it works anyone can make one.  The pivot and pendulum rods you see are titanium left over from past projects.  Titanium is extremely strong as well as expensive.  Good luck trying to cut it.
You can use 316 grade stainless steel rods and screws throughout as that particular grade of steel is non magnetic.  Its inexpensive.  Brass is ok but a long soft pivot rod might flex.

I am going to purchase a small scale and weigh the ring runner magnet accuratly as well as the pendulum.

What total lenght of the balance beam should be is an unknown factor at this point as the runner will never touch the magnetic ends but bounce off the repeling magnetic fields.  I will have to find that by guess or by golly.


The beam end magnets wont have to be weighed - just mounted in place equally from the pivot point and then the whole beam must be accuratly balanced.

After that the runner magnet will be placed in the center and the beam tipped by hand to start movement.  The runner should be lighter than the pendulum weight or the pendulum will never swing. How much lighter I dont know.

In any event I found an inexpensive source for 1 pound lead donut weights so I can build up the weight of the pendulum as needed easily.

Tom

hey tom,

thanks for the reply.  been out of town for a couple of days and just catching up.  good luck with your latest experiment!!! LOOKS GREAT!!

STUPID question of the day.  i know you have alot more experience with magnets than i do.  have you ever tried spinning a ball magnet inside of one of your big magnets?  like a gyroscope?  i know it would take power to overcome the flux to make this happen but i was just wondering what would happen.  especially if you wound a unit like that with copper and used this as the mass for the pendulum.  maybe a copper ball would be better. don't even ask me to draw a picture.  i'm doing good on the computer just to figure out how to post a message.  just think about it and pm if you have any questions.

lol
sam

ps. dang you have some nice magnets!!!

Quote from: supersam on April 10, 2007, 11:31:31 PM
hey tom,

thanks for the reply.  been out of town for a couple of days and just catching up.  good luck with your latest experiment!!! LOOKS GREAT!!

STUPID question of the day.  i know you have alot more experience with magnets than i do.  have you ever tried spinning a ball magnet inside of one of your big magnets?  like a gyroscope?  i know it would take power to overcome the flux to make this happen but i was just wondering what would happen.  especially if you wound a unit like that with copper and used this as the mass for the pendulum.  maybe a copper ball would be better. don't even ask me to draw a picture.  i'm doing good on the computer just to figure out how to post a message.  just think about it and pm if you have any questions.

lol
sam

ps. dang you have some nice magnets!

Hi Sam, If you put a ball magnet inside a ring magnet one of the polaritys on the ball magnet will seek out the opposite polarity on the ring magnet.  It will stick there and nothing moves.

Take a look at the "Hamel Spinner"  described on the internet and make one. Its a lot of fun and works.   Two ring magnets and one steel ball is all thats required.

Tom

Hi All,

After a lot more thought I simplified this device even further.

No more rolling runner magnet on top of the balance beam.  Only one pivot point now.  Almost friction free.

I have a Mu Metal shield incorporated within the pendulum .

Both swing together as illustrated.

The 2 magnets  mounted on the pendulum in a fixed position are shielded by the Mu metal arc at all times.   Thats until the pendulum swings to a point where the pendulum magnets face the externally mounted magnets directly.   This will happen in a split second resulting as a repelling kick to the pendulum.  Happens on both sides of the pendulum arc.

You might say why bother with Mu metal.  The answer is that the repel forces will start repelling each other at a much greater distance if the Mu metal is not in place. 

Two North poles will attract each other on the same spot with a section of Mu Metal between them.  Pull the Mu Metal out and both magnets will repel each other.  Ditto for South poles.

If a magnet attracted by a Mu Metal plate can slide/glide off its flat end surfaces easily then this should work.  During that split second after sliding off the Mu Metal it will face a huge repelling force.  The rest needs no explanation.

Tom

tom,

great to see the wheels are turning everywhere!!!!  keep it up. there is something out there.  what an ingenius idea!

i am still curious about the pendulum- magnet -gyroscope, if you need a little boost.

lol
i guess i'll be sam tonight

My head hurts!

I just spent the last few hours reading this thread from start to finish and WOW! Your guys are silly! No disrespect to your work though. Its just amazing where you started and where you are now. From what I understand no one has anything that as actually worked yet? Am I right? There is so much I want to say but its now too late today. When I write again I will be going back to the vary first post and the video shown on the rail gun. I think if what I saw in that video is true with a few small assumptions we might be talking about something that could work. One question I have is from that first video will the ring magnet be pulled into the device and then shot out or do you have to drop it in past the sticky spot?

Tim

check this out for O/U
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3078131163857744253
someone do the math it's been running since 1996 how many watt hours is that approx.?

My first guess is that there are electromagnets under the base of the unit that are running it. However I think I can see in theory how it works. It uses a SMOT to propel the ball and in doing so transfers a small amount of energy to the pendulum to keep it running. The pendulum is used to pull the magnet away from the ball as it passes just enough to pull the ball and then release it. The length of the pendulums are calculated just right for the time it take the ball to travel around. I think the C magnets also are used to keep the three pendulums rocking lined up. As one goes down there is a small arm from the next C magnet pendulum arm that is in the magnetic field which is pulled down with it. The question is does this really work to get the ball past the sticky spot? It makes it harder to believe that is has been running for that long and is in what looks like a museum and hasn't made the news. We all know if this really did what it claims then it would be a lot larger then a video on Google.

Tim

Quote from: nwman on April 12, 2007, 01:10:52 AM
My head hurts!

I just spent the last few hours reading this thread from start to finish and WOW! Your guys are silly! No disrespect to your work though. Its just amazing where you started and where you are now. From what I understand no one has anything that as actually worked yet? Am I right? There is so much I want to say but its now too late today. When I write again I will be going back to the vary first post and the video shown on the rail gun. I think if what I saw in that video is true with a few small assumptions we might be talking about something that could work. One question I have is from that first video will the ring magnet be pulled into the device and then shot out or do you have to drop it in past the sticky spot?

Tim

Hi Tim,

The very first video you saw was a working "LINEAR" demonstration.  Its true-- I used magnetic rails spaced as you see them to get the runner magnet to roll.  No sticky spots because the rails are staggered.  The runner magnet pulls itself into motion.

I have been tring to get that idea to work in a circular form to date and the very last illustration I posted might work.  In this setup one can use regular block magnets.

As you can see I acually built my ideas only to find they did not work.  Same story with Edison and his light bulb.   I am far from being some sort of genius but I keep after it.  Its only a matter of time untill someone makes a simple self runner using nothing but permanent magnets. Keep electronics out of this.  Electrical devices require external power.

All good thoughts need a follow up with actual construction. 


Tom

Quote from: nwman on April 12, 2007, 04:02:42 AM
My first guess is that there are electromagnets under the base of the unit that are running it. However I think I can see in theory how it works. It uses a SMOT to propel the ball and in doing so transfers a small amount of energy to the pendulum to keep it running. The pendulum is used to pull the magnet away from the ball as it passes just enough to pull the ball and then release it. The length of the pendulums are calculated just right for the time it take the ball to travel around. I think the C magnets also are used to keep the three pendulums rocking lined up. As one goes down there is a small arm from the next C magnet pendulum arm that is in the magnetic field which is pulled down with it. The question is does this really work to get the ball past the sticky spot? It makes it harder to believe that is has been running for that long and is in what looks like a museum and hasn't made the news. We all know if this really did what it claims then it would be a lot larger then a video on Google.

Tim

Hi Tim,

Its a real interesting video but the bottom line of this device is:  Can it power something else?      If not then it becomes what you see as a museum curiosity open for lots of discussion.

I did notice that it works using pendulum power however.  Take a look at this link:

http://www.calacademy.org/products/pendulum/index.html      Real good pendulum info.

Tom

Hi Guys,  I have the Mu metal under the curved section you see.

I may face the curved Mu metal section the reverse way under the beam and lay the pendulum magnets along side of the Y yoke.   Whatever way is easier to deal with that produces the same expected result.


Tom

Quote from: magnetman12003 on April 12, 2007, 09:01:36 AM

Quote from: nwman on April 12, 2007, 04:02:42 AM
My first guess is that there are electromagnets under the base of the unit that are running it. However I think I can see in theory how it works. It uses a SMOT to propel the ball and in doing so transfers a small amount of energy to the pendulum to keep it running. The pendulum is used to pull the magnet away from the ball as it passes just enough to pull the ball and then release it. The length of the pendulums are calculated just right for the time it take the ball to travel around. I think the C magnets also are used to keep the three pendulums rocking lined up. As one goes down there is a small arm from the next C magnet pendulum arm that is in the magnetic field which is pulled down with it. The question is does this really work to get the ball past the sticky spot? It makes it harder to believe that is has been running for that long and is in what looks like a museum and hasn't made the news. We all know if this really did what it claims then it would be a lot larger then a video on Google.

Tim

Hi Tim,

Its a real interesting video but the bottom line of this device is:  Can it power something else?      If not then it becomes what you see as a museum curiosity open for lots of discussion.

I did notice that it works using pendulum power however.  Take a look at this link:

http://www.calacademy.org/products/pendulum/index.html      Real good pendulum info.

Tom

I don't think that is a the real question. The absolutely FIRST question/problem to overcome is to achieve continuous operation. No need to pull power of off it yet. If you can overcome entropy (friction) then you have done it. If you can ACTUALLY do this then anything else is just icing on the cake. Like in this liner example on Google the fact that it is continuously running(if indeed it is) proves the point. The fact that the ball is maintaining speed  means the device is producing enough "extra" power to overcome the losses of friction of the ball rolling and wind resistance. What I would like to see added to that device is a multimeter and or a gaussmeter hooked up at each of the three magnet points to read the flux in the fields. Let alone I would love to test every area around the device with those as well as a clear box of iron filings to see the fields. One might even be able to light an LED off of the flux in the fields as the ball passes by. That would show power being pulled from the device. Or mechanically by adding a couple more of those little wire ramps in the path of the ball the are pushed down with can be connected to a small fly wheel.

I want to make a few graphics and post here in a second to show my ideas of what you could try with you original videos setup that might connect the loop.


Tim

Hi  Tim,

In the first video you saw the runner magnet tracked the rail next to it.  When the runner magnet left the end of that rail it was repeled to one side. Look closely at the video and you can see that slight movement.   It did the same thing after tracking the other rails also.  Notice also that I have the rails staggered so that there is no pinchoff ( sticky spot)  .

In essence the runner magnet "WEAVED" its way down the linear track.

Tom

OK here is just a simple graphic I throw together to take your first videos device and make it run linearly in a loop. Just take four of then in arrange them in a square so when the wheel exits the first smot the inertia pushes it along  track the turns it 90 degrees and allows it to run into the second smot and thus would continue the loop. Now if this would continually run then you could do a number of things to make it provide power. I do hate to say it but I think the best way to focus our efforts is to only try to reach the goal of making continues looping without loss to entropy. If you can overcome entropy we are all going to be rich. Harnessing electrical power is really better left to the engineers.

Tim

NOTE: the corners might have to be banked to allow the ring to turn the corner. I'm not sure if a steel ball bearing instead of the ring magnet would work but just a thought.

Here is another simple layout that might close the loop. If you can actually get the ring magnet t roll up hill just construct a ramp the carry it up until it reaches the top and then rolls off onto a wheel which of course turns as it falls (turning a flywheel/generator) and then it rolls back down to the bottom of the ramp. Like someone else said about the roller coaster.

Not to say what your working on now wont work, but I think working with what we know works and simply modifying the same layout to harness any energy is what needs to be done. Your current design is far from what you started with in the way of complexity and may be introducing factors that are not foreseen. Yada Yada.....

What I would like to see if it isn't to difficult is a video of your first layout with a totally flat/level surface before the smot and after. I want to see you place the ring magnet a foot or so before the entrance of the smot and then gently with one finger push the ring magnet into the forces of the smot and see the smot pull the ring in and accelerate it through and then past the end of the smot. If this can be done I really think we might have something here. Also if you could do the same thing but with the surface being at an uphill angle to show it actually climbing up would be awesome. Again just the EXACT same layout as the first video shows. I just want to see that there isn't a gate before the SMOT nor one after and that it will actually accelerate the ring through it  and throw it out the other side like a pitching machine.

I am concerned about the pendulum thing you are creating. Still build it but I want to throw my thoughts out here about it. It looks to me that the pendulum will only come to a stop faster then just  normal pendulum swinging freely. The reason is because even though the magnets my be shielded from each other while it swings they are still going to act like cushions/springs when they get close to each other. They shouldn't actually add any energy to the pendulum. What happened to the SMOT? 

Tim

P.S. let me know if you can make the video I described in my last post?

I have to run to work but I thought I would get this picture up. I hope its explanatory enough. Just a thought. Not sure if it would work.

Tim

Quote from: magnetman12003 on April 12, 2007, 04:46:32 PM
Hi  Tim,

In the first video you saw the runner magnet tracked the rail next to it.  When the runner magnet left the end of that rail it was repeled to one side. Look closely at the video and you can see that slight movement.   It did the same thing after tracking the other rails also.  Notice also that I have the rails staggered so that there is no pinchoff ( sticky spot)  .

In essence the runner magnet "WEAVED" its way down the linear track.

Tom

I agree with your observations and I think I could assume from the logic that the ring magnet would be pulled into the front of the SMOT and then shot through the SMOT. (We'll have to call it a Tommy Gun). I would just like to see if do that instead of assuming it does. I'm getting real close to buying everything to repeat that first experiment. Then maybe try to adopt it to the wheel in my last drawing. Theoretically I believe it should react the same on the curved plan of the wheel. What do you think?(all)

Tim

Hi Tim,

Its worth a try.   I found that the "flat" side of the donut ring magnet does not do well in any type of a turn as is needed running an oval track.   The shape of the donut magnet best suited would look just like a donut with totally rounded sides and bottom. Then only a small bottom part will contact the track at any time with little friction.  A flat cylinder shaped surface wants to run straight.  Much drag in turns.

I was going to make rounded inserts and slip my cylinder shaped runner magnets inside them to have that real donut look.

Next I was going to place a long non magnetic axle rod through the center of the donut. At the other end of the rod would be a fixed CENTER pivot point allowing the donut shaped magnet wheel with long axle attached to roll in a circular form with ease.

Then I would shape my "Staggered" rail sections in a circular form and work them ahead of the magnet wheel/axle setup in a step by step fashion.  All the time watching closely if the donut magnet was (by itself) tracking the rail placement I was experimenting and building ahead of
it. 

You will find out very quickly that the inside staggered rails in a circular form are much smaller than the ouside staggered rails.  If done as above you wont have to hold the magnet /wheel/ axle assembly.  As you are experimenting with rail placements the donut wheel should move with you if everything you place ahead of it agrees magnetically.

I started to do this but put it on a back burner as other things came up.  Its hard to find round donut inserts to put a cylinder shaped magnet inside.  A good wood lath shop person can probably fabricate one for you.

    Tom

Tom,

Have you tried a steel ball bearing through the SMOT?

Do you think the waving (side to side) of the ring magnet rolling through the SMOT is necessary or could the ring just roll straight through on a track and still work?

How easy was it for you to reproduce the same action shown in the first video? Was it difficult to get it to roll straight through and out every time? Did it work the first time you passed it through? What other actions would happen if it didn't work correctly; for example did the ring twist and stick to a rail?

Could you e-mail me the first video? I would still like to see a full run through like I explained earlier with the ring a foot or so before the first rail and then gently pushed until the rail pulled it into, through and out the other side. If I could see that I would be on the next flight to meet you.

I'm still a believer in the laws of physics however that doesn't mean I agree with what "they" say can and can not be done. This makes me wonder where the energy is coming from. In the case of gravity wheels gravity is the source of power (theoretically). Magnets on the other hand have different properties. I'm just wondering where the energy is comeing from? Maybe if this does work then a new interpretation of forces is required to explain the energy.

From my experience and probably all of you I can't help but know this doesn't work for some reason, but it is that reason that drive me crazy to know "why?"

Anything else have input on the latest designs? Anyone trying to replicate any of the previous experiments?


Tim

P.S. I hope this works!

Tom,

Just to confirm the polarity and layout of your first experiment please check out the graphic and let me know if this is how you had it laid out. Using:

3- 1" thick x 4.5" Diameter Ring magnets

Two rails with:

In each rail:
78 - 3/4" Diameter x 1/4" Thick ceramic Disc magnets in groups of 6 (1.5" long) with 1/4 spacers between groups all mounted in a 3/4" aluminum Chanel.

The first rail ends at the mid point of the second rail. Both slanted inwards.

In position:
1. the ring is only pulled in with no repelling force.

2. The ring is pulled in and slightly to the right.

3. The ring is then attracted to the left rail and slightly repelled by the right rail.

4. The left rail still attracts the ring while the right rail is not pushing the ring away.

5. The left rail is not pushing the ring back and away but the ring has enough inertia to travel free.

6. The ring is free from all forces of the rails and has inertia left to travel forward.



Would this description be correct?

I just waned to post this link to a site on magnets. I found it to be vary useful and informative on the basics-intermediate information on magnets. Lots of pictures and simple explanations. Its a must read for magnet lovers.

http://www.coolmagnetman.com/magindex.htm (http://www.coolmagnetman.com/magindex.htm)

Tim

P.S. I plan on buying everything needed to reproduce Tom's first experiment on Monday. I'm hoping to find that 4.5" magnet some place in town but I may have to order it which might take a week or two.

Quote from: nwman on April 14, 2007, 03:40:44 PM
I just waned to post this link to a site on magnets. I found it to be vary useful and informative on the basics-intermediate information on magnets. Lots of pictures and simple explanations. Its a must read for magnet lovers.

http://www.coolmagnetman.com/magindex.htm (http://www.coolmagnetman.com/magindex.htm)

Tim

P.S. I plan on buying everything needed to reproduce Tom's first experiment on Monday. I'm hoping to find that 4.5" magnet some place in town but I may have to order it which might take a week or two.

Hi Tim,

Your illustration is correct. However - One of my rails was constructed of neodymium magnets as described on page one of this SMOT forum when it first started.  The neos were 3/4 inch in diameter while the stacked ceramic rail magnets were 1 inch in diameter. Dont forget to put the 1/4 inch wood spacers between every one inch grouping of the stacked rail magnets.

Everything must be perfectly level as starters.  Then you will have to experiment with your rails for exact placement to duplicate this.  The rails have to be placed correctly or the runner magnet will try to spin around. I used a non ferrous rail guide to reduce that tendency.   That explains why the runner is 3 inches thick and heavy.  A small light ring magnet will not work.

The thicker ( wide) the better when working with a LINEAR DESIGN. 

Wide is not good when attempting a circular design.  Thats why the round donut idea.  I  will post that idea next.   You can buy the three 4.5 inch ceramic diameter runner
magnets you need from: www.surpluscenter.com     


Tom

Hi Guys, Here is a thought that might work in a circular SMOT concept.

The donut shaped ring magnet is used as a wheel and is free to rotate inside a non magnetic cyliner or drum.  It is free to rotate 360 degrees around a central pivot point attached to a long axle its connected to.  The axle is free to rotate 360 also on its pivot point.

The cylinder wall have curved magnet bars all around the sides. Two STAGGERED rows as illustrated.  One row faces the lower side of the magnet wheel. And one row faces the topside of the wheel.

ONLY ONE POLARITY OF THE WHEEL IS USED!  Thats the polarity that faces outward on the wheel and faces the rail magnets.   Doing this eliminates the possibilitys of sticky spots later.

Look very carefully at the illustration of both rail magnet POLARITYS on the bottom and the top of the wheel.  Both in FRONT of the ring and BEHIND the ring.  You can see why the magnet donut wheel should roll in the indicated direction.  Comments?

Tom

Tom,

So one rail was made of 13 - 1.5L x 3/4thick neo magnets? I can't find that dimension magnet anywhere? I also don't see any pictures of neo magnets just ceramic? The best thing I can find is 3/4"thick x 1/2"L neos for $4 each which would cost $104+ per rail? Ouch. Which rail was it in the video? It might be cheaper for me to fly and meet you and play with yours!

How confident are you that if it was all made with neos it would still work and not be too strong? I would like to start exactly where you left off in the video but thats a lot of cash. I could build two rails with 3/4D x 1/4L grade 8 ceramic magnets in groups of 6 all for around $30 plus the three 4.5" inch ring magnets for $18+shipping. But if I used neos it would cost near $300. Which I wouldn't hesitate to buy if.........

I'll ask again. Could you show me a video clip using the same layout as your first video but including exactly what fallows:

-A flat level surface running a few feet before and after the rails.

-Show the magnet sitting at rest just before and outside the pull of the rails at the start.

- Then have you roll the magnet closer to the start of the rails with one finger on top until the rails pull the ring magnet in. Showing that it pulls it in and doesn't have a repelling affect.

-Then show it continue through the rails and out the other side free of the rails.

-It would be nice to also see two videos of this from top view and one from the side. (optional)


I would really love to help you here but I just can't justify that kind of money without seeing the above. You do this for me and I think I can really help you out. Please let me know ASAP if you can and will do this video for me!

Thanks,

Tim

Hi Tim,

You dont have to buy expensive Neos Tim.

Just stick with the rails using all ceramic magnets and you will be alright.  The rails will have to come a little closer to the runner magnet however to make this work as the ceramics are less powerfull.

I just used what I had on hand.  My neos were 3/4 inch in diameter - not 3/4 inch thick.   

I have already taken my rails apart and am using the stacked magnets for other projects. No more movies till I get a circular track running.  You will definetely have no problem trying this linear setup on your own.   The magnet rail placement/adjustment is critical to get it to work. Also the whole setup must be perfectly level.  Hills might come later.  I was happy just seeing it work as shown in the movie.

Once you do this the next thing will be how can I make this into a circular form.

Thats what I have been attempting to do and its not easy.  Using a staggered magnetic track seems to hold the answer however.   

I have already built a SMOT setup and was able to roll a steel ball in a circular form better than 180 degrees. No movie.  Project taklen apart.  The bottom line however in all projects is how can I use this to power something else?   I saw no future in it except to sit in a museum as a curiosity.  Rolling large round magnets have a lot more going for them to power other things.

The next illustration will be a new thought on a circular ( Magnet wheel ) setup I probably will attempt next.

Tom

Hi,

The below illustation can be formed on the ousides of a non magnetic drum or cylinder.  The top curved C section is the same size as the low C section. For illustration purposes I had to format it the way you see it.  The low C section looks smaller but is acually the same size as the top C. 

A little side view illustration might clear up that point.

Notice that the two magnet wheels mounted in the center of the drum have a common 360 power takeoff pivot axle.  The wheels have only one polarity facing outwards to the cylinder sides. In this case North polarity.  South polarity is not in the ballgame at all. South face the insides of the wheels.

The wheels will track the curved side rails in the direction indicated.  When the wheels meet the area where the top and low curved sections overlap -- We will call that overlap area a neutral zone. Both a south and north polarity exist there and the end result is a cancelling out effect.  Not the dreaded sticky spot.  Since the wheels/axle are already turning they will easily swing through this area and then the start tracking the polarity of the curved rails again.

Guys,  Hopefully its that simple.  A start on this is shown  also.     Comments?

Tom

Hi Tom,

That design is starting to look like the MAG-GEN. For those of you who have never seen it. I have a saved copy of the website that I attached to this post. It's an Internet Explorer .mht file.

To this day, I still don't know of anyone who has tried to make the MAG-GEN; rather sad really...

God Bless,
Jason O

Hi Jason,

What you are talking about is exactly where this idea came from.

I never could think of a way to use it till now.  One C magnetic rail section will be mounted "under" the wheel axle and the other C section will be mounted "above" the wheel axle. 180 degrees apart.  So simple!!!    If it only works.    I already have the 360 pivot axle made and am working on the curved rail sides made out of many stacked round ceramic magnets.   My 5 pound wheel magnets are so powerfull that the neutral spots on the rails will be hardy noticed.  (10 pounds total.)  Figure the torque if those magnets get to moving.   Wow.

Tom 

Hi Tom,

This will be an interesting experiment to see. If I get some time, I may even try to simulate it for you. The only thing I'd worry about is the pole spots. The magnets might hang there.

God Bless,
Jason O

Hi Jason,

If you can make a simulation and post it I would greatly appreciate it.  This idea appears like it might work also if in fact the neutral area is neutral.


Tom

Tom,

What where the dimensions of the neo magnets you used? Which rail had them?

Tim

Hi Tim,

My neo magnets were 3/4 inch in diameter and 1.50 inches long.  Standard grade N38.

The neo rail in the movie was the rail closest to the bottom of your monitor as you watch the movie.  You are looking straight down at the setup.  Its the more thinner of the two taped over rails.  The ceramic rails were made from stacked 1 inch diameter ceramic disks. Each disk 1/4 inch thick.

I hope this helps.  You can buy neos rather cheaply on Ebay auction. Thats where I get most of my experimental items.  I got the ceramics there also.

Tom

Tom,

Thanks, I will can't find a Neo that has those dimensions but it shouldn't make a difference if I stack two 3/4" diameter 3/4" Long neos together to make a 3/4 Diameter x 1.5" Long magnet. I'm trying to deal with a seller on eBay to buy 52 of them $$.

Currently I have ordered all the parts needed and using just ceramic magnet rails and the 4.5" ring magnet from surpluscenter.com. I hope to be able to replicate your first video. If I can't make it work with the ceramic magnets then I might have to consider buying the Neo'$.


Tim

Hi Tim,

Keep after it and you will find it works.  Level surface is important. Another tip:

Its hard to see in the video because you are looking straight down.  I have ONE thin 1/4 inch thick section of plastic strip in a VERTICAL position running the lenght of the wood board.  Its fastened along the TOP side of the board as seen in the video.

It does two things.  It keeps the ring magnet from rolling off the board and helps guide the ring in its travel as straight as possible. I dont have another plastic guide strip on the other side of the wood board as the ring magnet weaves its way down.

Tom

Hi All,

I am off to a good start so far on this.

As you see in the illustration I have already made three groups of stacked magnets mounted on the sides of an old ladys wooden sewing hoop in a circular fashion.

The three "HOOP GROUPS" you see are spaced 1/2 inch apart.

Each group has  3  one inch sections of stacked ceramic magnet disks seperated by a 1/8 inch wood divider.  My ceramic disks are 1 inch in diameter and 1/4 inch thick.

You might ask why this way? --Just use a single stacked magnet rod.

Read all you can about a "TOMI track" on the internet  and you will understand.   To

long to explain here.


What I found so far is my magnet runner will easily go from one end clean to the other side of all three groups with ease. It  rotates in an arc when held at the end of the long wood dowl you see.   No stopping between the 1/2 inch seperation between magnet groups.  All this is experimental right now but at this point it sure looks good.  I took this photo on a shag carpet to keep the runner from moving to one end of the hoop ring. Just bump it even there and it moves.

Please check out the Yahoos "MAG-GEN" group for a lot more info about this sort of device . Thats where I got the idea about using a double C magnet configuration.

My twists on this idea was I am placing one C section under the wheel axle and one C over the wheel axle. Also I am only using ONE pole of the runner magnet becase using both poles can set up the dreaded sticky spot.


Check out pages 3 and 4 of this web site:  http://www.paranormal-investigation.com/plans/coral_castle/coral_castle02.htm


Tom


 

Hi,

I added another segment to the circular C shape rails I am constructing for the MAG- GEN project.

I am extremely happy to report that my 2. 75 inch diameter, 3.25 inch thick stacked ring magnet pulls the "CIRCULAR" distance with ease and very rapidly.   The other magnet does the same being my 4.5 inch diameter, 3 inch thick magnet.

Thats a rare condition as I have found in the past that one or the other size magnet works better than the other.    I am excited now.   

Tom

Tom or anyone,

If my pursuit to replicate Tom's first video experiment I just wanted to see what your opinions where on using neo rod magnets verses cube or bar magnets? Would one be better then another? I plan to build first the flat linear track and if I can reproduce that then I want to try and arch the rails around the edge of a 4' diameter wheel(arms) like in the picture below. I'm slightly concerned about how the magnetic fields will change by curving the rail slightly.

Tim

Note: SMOG (Small Magnetic Overunity Generator) ;)

Heres a tought on the circlular curved rail post before this, use three sets of rails equally spaced, with at least half of a rail length separating the rails. by taking advantage of the accelated gravity you might just have something there. Remember, timing of the hard points in the acceleration zone of another.

Quote from: d3adp00l on April 18, 2007, 01:29:28 AM
Here's a thought on the circular curved rail post before this, use three sets of rails equally spaced, with at least half of a rail length separating the rails. by taking advantage of the accelerated gravity you might just have something there. Remember, timing of the hard points in the acceleration zone of another.

I had thought of that idea but I was trying to focus more on the SMOT shown at the beginning of this thread and how it seems able to escape the sticky spot. If it truly can then the wheel "should" work with just one set of rails in principle. No real need "yet" to make it more complex. I don't think "gravity" is playing a roll in this concept. Not at the moment anyways.

So lets say the SMOT works and it can propel like it shows in the video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6531588179303444480 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6531588179303444480)) Then by adding four more smots around a three spoke wheel like in the graphic below you would improve the performance of the wheel. How knows, maybe this setup is needed to make it work. I'm trying t take baby steps and not add more physics to the experiment then necessary.

First I want to reproduce Tom's video. If it works then I want to take what I know works and tweak it little by little by seeing if the same setup will work on a curved plain. It may even work better due to the fact that the wheel would be balance so the rotating magnets would have no relative weight (besides drag on the axle). Thus taking less force to move them. Then if it works on a curved plain (wheel) it should add energy to the wheel with every pass through the SMOT. The key though I think is the SMOT actually working. Setting up the three spoke idea below would even improve upon its performance even if it had a sticky spot...... I assume.

So note the picture below and fallow the rotation of the yellow magnet. At every point the wheel has one arm being pulled in, one being pulled through, and one at "the sticky spot" (if the smot doesn't work on its own). This would lead me to conclude that there should be near twice the force rotating the wheel then trying to stop it at any given point of rotation. Yada, Yada.

What do "y'all" think?

Tim

Note: Stage 4 seems not to be optimal but this is do to my hasty construction. With some tuning of the length of the rails it should be more seamless.

Hi All,

I am going to video what happens when a runner magnet rolls just one segment of the illustration below.

Each color represents one segment of a complete circle. There are two segments mounted on each ring. 

There are two rings.  One top ring to be placed over a magnet wheel axle and one bottom ring to be placed under a wheel axle.

Superimpose both rings and you have whats illustrated in the photo C .

I forsee a working device doing this.

Note!!  By experimenting I found making a longer segment past a certain lenght does not work and the wheel magnet either slows down, works erratic, or stops. 

You will have to view a movie of just what one segment will do and this thinking will all come together.  If the magnet wheel runner meets up with the right magnetic signatures it should easily travel through the overlaping areas shown in the illustrated photo C.   That should set the stage for a MAG-GEN motor.

When I show this movie you will be impressed.  The wheel runner magnet actually turns rapidly in a "CIRCULAR" fashion.   Movie will show one segment working the ring wheel runner.  Illustrated below iis one completed ring with two segments mounted to it.  I have to make another ring yet

Tom

Hi Tim,

I think our ideas are very closely related.

I forsee a working self runner soon.

Tom

Hello
This looks quite impressiv
At the End it will be a magnetic Motor/Generator

very good idea

Helmut

Quote from: nwman on April 18, 2007, 02:57:55 AM

Quote from: d3adp00l on April 18, 2007, 01:29:28 AM
Here's a thought on the circular curved rail post before this, use three sets of rails equally spaced, with at least half of a rail length separating the rails. by taking advantage of the accelerated gravity you might just have something there. Remember, timing of the hard points in the acceleration zone of another.

I had thought of that idea but I was trying to focus more on the SMOT shown at the beginning of this thread and how it seems able to escape the sticky spot. If it truly can then the wheel "should" work with just one set of rails in principle. No real need "yet" to make it more complex. I don't think "gravity" is playing a roll in this concept. Not at the moment anyways.

So lets say the SMOT works and it can propel like it shows in the video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6531588179303444480 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6531588179303444480)) Then by adding four more smots around a three spoke wheel like in the graphic below you would improve the performance of the wheel. How knows, maybe this setup is needed to make it work. I'm trying t take baby steps and not add more physics to the experiment then necessary.

First I want to reproduce Tom's video. If it works then I want to take what I know works and tweak it little by little by seeing if the same setup will work on a curved plain. It may even work better due to the fact that the wheel would be balance so the rotating magnets would have no relative weight (besides drag on the axle). Thus taking less force to move them. Then if it works on a curved plain (wheel) it should add energy to the wheel with every pass through the SMOT. The key though I think is the SMOT actually working. Setting up the three spoke idea below would even improve upon its performance even if it had a sticky spot...... I assume.

So note the picture below and fallow the rotation of the yellow magnet. At every point the wheel has one arm being pulled in, one being pulled through, and one at "the sticky spot" (if the smot doesn't work on its own). This would lead me to conclude that there should be near twice the force rotating the wheel then trying to stop it at any given point of rotation. Yada, Yada.

What do "y'all" think?

Tim

Note: Stage 4 seems not to be optimal but this is do to my hasty construction. With some tuning of the length of the rails it should be more seamless.

The reason I suggest the three rails is the same as your 4 rail triple setup. So long as there isn't an equal division between the roto and rails I think you might have a chance. Three rails was the easiest/simpliest method to do that 3/4 4/5 all should work so long as the rails do not overlap with similar poles, that would create a squeeze effect on the narrow section of the rails and increase the stick of the sticky spot. if they overlap they would have to overlap with opposite poles to spread the sticky spot, however with a magnet on the rotor the new opposite poles would counter completely.

With one rail and two rotor mags, heres my 2 cents, at the narrow section (sticky spot) the mag is going to need something to help it break through the attraction to the rails, being that is the point of greatest attraction (lowest frustration/energy). I think you will need one of a few things it not all of them, high mass in the rotor mag, using gravity to help the acceleration past the escape velocity, the fact that the system is counter balanced and therefore no relative wieght works for and against you, easy to lift the uphill side, but easy for the sticky spot to hold onto also. Momentum/inertia of the rotor relative to the strength of the sticky spot will be key. I would suggest neo rails alinco rotor, heck who knows maybe a steel rotor would do it.

I believe a multi rail design will be needed to work, not just to make the whole thing stronger. with the downward action of the rotor being an acceleration from the rails, you should get a good amount of speed, the sticky spot will take some of that away (gravity+magnetic induced accel- sticky force-energy lifting rotor#2= net result). The timing needs to be set so that at any given sticky spot another rotor is in the middle of a rail.

Ok I did a little sketch, heres what I come up with, in order for the middle of one rail to be the end of another, the begining and end will be at the same point, which as I said earlier squeezes the sticky spot tighter. Which can be countered be placing a magnet with the oppsite end in contact with the narrow end of the rail mag, the the cancelation mag going away from the motor. Its a little hard to describe and I am not going with computer drawings, I could draw it by hand nicely, but my scanner isn't working.

I think the concept has merit, and as with most prototypes, I agree start simple and test, let the complication evolve only as necessary. Good luck. and keep us informed how the battle goes.

I personally have given up on motors with sticky spots, I have run way too many prototypes and unlike the "i'm rubber and you're glue" comeback that won everything as a child, in this case the glue always beat me. If anyone is curious about that check the thread I started.

Well I watched the video again, always a good idea to recap. And here goes we all know how the roller tracks back and forth. It is more important than just something to stop from happening. Complete the stragger stator in a complete circle & hinge the rotor so it too can wander a bit(possibly with some kind of rubber dampening) Allow the rotor to follow a path that if looked at from a side view would create a sine wave, in that manor the needed ocsilation that all motors need would be pressent, and that oscilation allows the rotor to bump around the sticky spot, making it not necessary to fight through the spot.

Btw I know all of this is coming out fast, its more of a log of ideas, so that those who pursue this type of design can if they want give it a go, or not. I don't want anyone thinking that I am telling them what to do, as if I know so much or something.
Consider it a refence for those who want it.
cheers

P.S. The biggest reason I feel the need to put these ideas up, is I will forget them by the time I am done with my current project.

The reason I suggest the three rails is the same as your 4 rail triple setup. So long as there isn't an equal division between the roto and rails I think you might have a chance. Three rails was the easiest/simpliest method to do that 3/4 4/5 all should work so long as the rails do not overlap with similar poles, that would create a squeeze effect on the narrow section of the rails and increase the stick of the sticky spot. if they overlap they would have to overlap with opposite poles to spread the sticky spot, however with a magnet on the rotor the new opposite poles would counter completely.

With one rail and two rotor mags, heres my 2 cents, at the narrow section (sticky spot) the mag is going to need something to help it break through the attraction to the rails, being that is the point of greatest attraction (lowest frustration/energy).

In any other SMOT set up your right. The magnet wouldn?t be able to escape the ?sticky spot?. However that is the difference in this setup if presumably the offset rail design of Tom?s shows he found a way past the sticky spot. At least in his video it shows it escaping the end. The only question is what forces are acting on the ring magnet at the beginning of the rail? From Tom?s description of the polar alignment the first rail should attract the Ring magnet into the rail which is then where Tom?s first video take off and shows it traveling through and clear of the rails. Like a pitching machine throwing (accelerating) a ball.

I think you will need one of a few things it not all of them, high mass in the rotor mag, using gravity to help the acceleration past the escape velocity, the fact that the system is counter balanced and therefore no relative wieght works for and against you, easy to lift the uphill side, but easy for the sticky spot to hold onto also. Momentum/inertia of the rotor relative to the strength of the sticky spot will be key.

-I agree with higher the mass the better.
-By using gravity on the downward swing yes it will help escape but then it would equally loose that energy trying to go up the other side. Thus not adding anything to the device.
-The wheel in a balance state will still have inertia. It will hold any additional energy added efficiently, I would presume. It would take all the friction from rolling and put it on a low friction ball bearing axle instead.

I would suggest neo rails alinco rotor, heck who knows maybe a steel rotor would do it.

There is a vary good change that I will be buying Neo magnets for one a set of rails. That will be near $240 and then times that by however many sets of rails you would need. I?m really hoping for just one set. Once I have Tom?s first video experiment reproduced I plan on trying block magnets and steel instead of the ring magnets to see if there is any better material. Again, baby steps.

I believe a multi rail design will be needed to work, not just to make the whole thing stronger. with the downward action of the rotor being an acceleration from the rails, you should get a good amount of speed, the sticky spot will take some of that away (gravity+magnetic induced accel- sticky force-energy lifting rotor#2= net result). The timing needs to be set so that at any given sticky spot another rotor is in the middle of a rail.

I?ll make a graphic on the next post.

Well I watched the video again, always a good idea to recap. And here goes we all know how the roller tracks back and forth. It is more important than just something to stop from happening. Complete the stragger stator in a complete circle & hinge the rotor so it too can wander a bit(possibly with some kind of rubber dampening) Allow the rotor to follow a path that if looked at from a side view would create a sine wave, in that manor the needed ocsilation that all motors need would be pressent, and that oscilation allows the rotor to bump around the sticky spot, making it not necessary to fight through the spot.

I agree and also had thought about aligning the rails end to end around the circumference of the circle. However I didn?t want to venture that far not knowing without testing how two rails back to back would react. I ?think? it would work but I?m holding off until I can test it. Any time you add more magnets to the equations some weird things can happen that I myself have no chance of predicting.
Also, I had thought of adding a slide on the ring magnets(or other) that would also allow for the magnet to wave back and forth if it was necessary. I know from a previous gravity wheel attempt that if you have weights moving perpendicular to the rotation of the wheel you get a LOT of vibration. But if its needed to make it work then be all means.

Btw I know all of this is coming out fast, its more of a log of ideas, so that those who pursue this type of design can if they want give it a go, or not. I don't want anyone thinking that I am telling them what to do, as if I know so much or something.
Consider it a refence for those who want it.

I appreciate your input greatly. It is all to easy to make it work in your head but not in reality. That?s why I had asked for anyone?s input to help sharpen my understanding of what might happen and argue my point and possibly be beaten.

NWMAN,

Your idea looks great! I don't foresee any problems but then again everything works good on paper. I hope it works!

I haven't been following this thread lately but man there are a lot of great ideas out there. Someone is going to get this working sooner or later.
Good luck to all.

Tim

One of my driving concepts behind all of this;
If sailors can sail upwind then a magnet can spin.

d3',

Yes, you can do it with two arms and three fixed rails. However if your relying on needed enough energy to pull away from the sticky spot then the two arm design would only equal 0. Three arms with four rails would provide greater thrust at any given time then any resistance and any given time. Two would always be pulling while only one would be at the sticky spot. Again, I'm hoping the sticky spot isn't going to be strong enough to stop the rotation. I also posted what I continues rail would look like but I can't say how it would work. There is a lot of magnetic fields in play.

Tim

Just another thought. You could even play with having two or more wheels in series with different timing. This would allow you two have a virtually continues trace without having the tracks in the same proximity as each other. This would be like the pistons of a motor. However, this is getting complex and costly to build. I think and hope trying with one set of rails and two rotating magnets or steel ends with be conclusive enough to prove the theory.

Tim

Note: The timing is probably off but you get the idea. Its late!

The pic shows too much distance between the top left hand corner rail and the other two. I agree the three on four looks good, I was just saying that 2 on 3 would give a mag in a positive rotation at the point of stick and thereby at least helping get it through. there would be time that it would be one in accel and one in nothing, but for every stick the other would be in accel. and it would be a little easier to build than a 3 on 4. Getting a triple rotor with 120 degrees between each on would be tricky, but a  twin rotor with 180 between can be done on a flat bench. The rails would be easier to place than rotor.

Also please seriously think about a "floating" rotor, a twin on a pivot, to allow the rotor mags to bump off the sticky spot, as in the video. to contain a smooth oscilation of the rotor it would need rails all the way around, and it would have a clean sinewave side profile.

d3',

I take it you don't believe Tom's smot rail actually can get by the sticky spot by itself?

I would need some serious unanimous support by the community to try and build any setup with four plus sets of rails.  It would be over $2,000 to build it easily (using neo's).

Tim

P.S "tom's" spelled backwards is "SMOT"!

its not that I don't believe what I see, its just that I know that sticky spots are the demise of pmms. So before the deign gets to far I would like anything that could hinder it be kicked around until it is in proper submission. looking at a complete stator I can see equal magnetic frustration with a uniform direction, which is what I theorize is needed for a successful pmm.

d3adp00l's theory for a working pmm

1. a field ocsilation is necesary

2. magnetic frustration must be equal along the path of travel

3. the direction of torque must be unified

There I said it, I gave away my secrets. If you can meet those you will have a working pmm. This smot type is the first rotor/stator design that I have hope for, if the stagger is set at midspan on each rod, and if the rotor follows a sin wave through its path, then it will have all of the above.
1. field ocsilation in the movement of the sin wave and in the angles of the stagger
2. the rotor sin path will mantain equal frustration on the rotor.
3. with the bump away from the sticky spot, there will be no negative contribution to
    the system and therefore the direction of torque is unified.

Thats why I feel it needed to discuss the points I have brought up.

2000.00$ what are the dimensions of the magnets you guys are looking for? I will check my pricing.

Thanks for your input. I can't argue that your wrong. I really want to play around with the linear design which I think will shed a lot of light on how a wheel can be built.

Well, if I take Tom's numbers and don't change anything the design would have four sets of rails (8 rails). Each rail consists on 13 -1.5" long 3/4" neo batteries (the closes I could find are 3/4"L x 3/4"D with two together would equal 1.5"). The best price I could find was on ebay for $4 per 3/4"L x 3/4"D which would be $8 per magnet (http://cgi.ebay.com/MAGNETS-with-TEETH-4-Neodymium-RODs-3-4-only-4-ea_W0QQitemZ150113018506QQihZ005QQcategoryZ1468QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/MAGNETS-with-TEETH-4-Neodymium-RODs-3-4-only-4-ea_W0QQitemZ150113018506QQihZ005QQcategoryZ1468QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)). So each rail would cost $104 in magnets + the rail housing. So 8 x $104 = $832+. Then say we have three arms each ring magnet if not changed would cost $20ish so $60. Then the stand and mounts for the rails and arms with axle if made out of aluminum and welded together (I would have to pay a couple hundred $$) and the components needed for the staggering effect. It would easily be near $1500+. Plus, taking into account any rebuild/ redesign from changes. $2000 I think would be a safe budget to say under or around.

I was trying to think of a simplistic way to make the rotating magnets slide back and fourth without having to find some kind of custom built ball bearing axle. A simple idea I had was to mount the magnet on a flexible peace of material that can bend side to side but not up and down. Like holding a flexible metal ruler on one end with its long edges facing up and down and wobbling it back and fourth. This would give it enough play I think to bounce off the sticky spot. If the peace was thin enough it would even allow for a small amount of twist if needed which would be closer to Tom's first design. The picture below illustrates from a top down view and displays an idea for an adjuster that you could move in and out on the arm to control and resistance of the wobbling. It might have too much resistance to the side to side movement but I think it would work just fine.

Personal note: I'm leaving on a road trip to AZ tomorrow so I'll be back Friday night hopefully. Please post any ideas or comments. Until them I'm out.

Tim

That link for those magnets on ebay is http://cgi.ebay.com/MAGNETS-with-TEETH-4-Neodymium-RODs-3-4-only-4-ea_W0QQitemZ150113018506QQihZ005QQcategoryZ1468QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/MAGNETS-with-TEETH-4-Neodymium-RODs-3-4-only-4-ea_W0QQitemZ150113018506QQihZ005QQcategoryZ1468QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

you may think about buying your magnets from these guys......I have in the past.
http://www.magnet4less.com/

Thanks! That's half the price! They are at the top of my list.

I'm even tempted to go with the 1/2"D by 1.5" long neo rod magnet because its also half the price of 2 -3/4"d 3/4"L. I think the fields in both are plenty big. What do you guys think?

Tim

Hi Guys,

Here is the video I promised.  I am pumping the wood ring with two magnet segments mounted on it

Still have to build the other ring with segments so thats why the pumping action.

The other ring with two segments will be mounted 180 degrees with respect to the ring you see.  One ring will go "under" the wood axle and the other ring will go "over" the axle.

The ends of the segments will overlap and hopefully the runner magnet wheels now directly facing both rings with mounted segments will then turn 360 on their own. 

Note that both rings will be seperated by about 3 inches.

The diameter of each rotating runner magnet is 4.5 inches.  10 pounds total on my  precision lazy susan type turntable. No wobble at all. Very little effort is needed to do what you see.  Yes- You can start the turning motion from the centerpoint of any ring segment.  If the sements on the ring are not constructed correctly- nothing will happen.  The magnetic signatures of both rings and runner magnets must aggree.   Experiment.

Excuse the bare feet but this demo blew my socks off.  Odd strokes for odd folks. Ha  Ha.

Open for comments,

Tom

Good concept on the tuneable arm. If the single rail does well maybe we'll have to have a fund raiser to complete the setup.

Hey guys, I'm back.

So I'm still waiting for the large ring magnets to show up in the mail. I think that link I received a couple post ago is a good price for the magnets so I'll probably order some of those in a few days or so. As soon as I get the 4.5" ring magnets I will try the linear rail set up with ceramic magnets and see how it works. Is there any other comments about the current design I am working with that might help? Also, I can't remember if galvanized metal is magnetic?

d3': what do you think of my rocking arm design? Do you think I should try to do something with ball bearings or maybe something else? Also, do you think I should start another threat for my design? I don't want to have two topics in one thread.

I was also thinking the other day what would a good descriptive name be for it and I think a technical name would be a(if is would work ???) :

Gaussian Flux Generator (GFG)

Like I said before, this is the first rotor/stator design I have seen that I have hope for. Using the stagger smot vid as reference it would appear to have a positive net outcome. Perpendicular trajectories are often know for having better results than linear design types, I am almost certain that you got something here. Again it means the 3 critia that I have formulated for a working motor. The only possible drawback is the stick spot and how to create an escape velocity/momentum from it. the stagger system the tom so brilliantly came up with seems to have weakened the sticky in the spot, is it enough, thats the million dollar question. I think you should use an aluminium framework, its cheap, light, strong, nonferrous, and available almost everywhere in every size. I would use skate board/roller blade bearings, they are good high speed sealed bearings, and again availble everywhere. My biggest problem with building anything is finding parts, right now I need 2 6" 48 pitch gears, 2 5" 48 pitch, and a couple of 3" so I can work on a couple projects, and I can't find them anywhere on the planet, well except if I have them custom made for like 2 grand. Find a 10" wide strip of AL (you'll probly find it in 12") and about 3 foot (and a couple inches) long and make your stator frame. And lastly given how far this has gone I think it has turned into its own topic. I talk to you on the new thread.

The name sounds a bit to technically inflated (to me, just an opinion). I would pick something a little more every day man language. Stagger Stator PMM? Just a thought.

Hi Guys,

I am still experimenting with my particular design.

In the meantime I ran across this U tube video that proves once and for all that an all permanent magnet/iron motor can be made and will operate. All skeptics should see this.

Click this link and watch this simple device work by itself for 5 seconds.   Maybe we can replicate it and make it into a larger form??   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOKHZ53g6788mode=related&search=    Then on the top of this page enter these words in the SEARCH box.    "perpetual motion made with fridge magnets"

Then click on "magnet motor" and watch.   

Do you think this simple rotor is an iron bar allowed to pivot in the center of a disk magnet or is the magnet the rotating bar centered and pivoting on a iron disk?   In any case the whole setup would attract the 6 iron bearings.


Tom

This video is inconclusive. All that one can conclude is that he found the sweet spot of fields to lessen the friction and or resistance of the fields. I think if he would have set the spinning magnet on a table top and spun it with the same force it would have spun for as much if not longer. Plus, the video shows it stopping. I saw this video last week. I could be wrong but magnets can be vary deceiving to the eye.

Tim

@ All

The new thread for my design is at http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2259.0.html (http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2259.0.html). Thanks,

Tim

hey tom,

go back to youtube and search, "magnet powered engine".  now that one looks innteresting!

lol
sam

On the rounded mag video, I have gotten many designs to work by oscilating the rotor which is what was happening that vid. The spinning magnet wasn't fixed to an axle with bearings which allowed it to wander a bit which gave it its rotation. Can he do it again, or for longer, not really its like spinning a top, or a coin.

The other looks like B.S. to me he was playing with a basic v gate and got bored so he put power to the fan in a bowl, wires go away from you and on the far edge of the table, or just a 9 volt battery just outside the bowl. I don't normally like to call hogwash on things, but the speed of rotation is way to constant for a single magnet rotor design. It would be pushed and pulled by the fields it encounters as it travels its path. The assembly doesn't have enough mass to smooth out those herks and jerks.

Hi Guys,

I am back again. 

Right now I can spin 10 pounds of  ceramic ring magnets with about 6 ounces of small stacked neo ring magnets. Thats using two fingers to steady the spinning axle shaft.  This particular motor device is a fast turner with a lot of torque.  I finally found a way.

I am working now to construct a needed part to make this a entirely hands off self powered all permanent magnet motor. 

If I show a movie of me touching it in any way even with two fingers--I will be opening the door for a lot of skeptical comments.  I wont do that.  I have confided all info with two persons I trust should I have problems later.

Read what you can about David Hamels cone motor.  I "GREATLY" simplified a certain principle he uses and added a lot of my own past ideas. The device works and rotates!   I still need to have a two finger touch to keep it running ----ALL THE TIME -----.  My fingers dont push, pull or twist a thing.  They only steady the turning axle shaft.

I plan to obtain a patent pending for this device then I will present a movie and idea to the world for free.   Why the patent pending?  --  To keep big oil money from blocking me in any way.   How complicated is this motor device?  2 large stacked ceramic ring magnets, one small stacked neo ring magnet. axle shaft, and a couple of smaller parts.  Anyone can construct one very inexpensivly. Absolutely no sticky spots at all.   Thats because this is not a track type motor.

I have been working at this for about 30 years and finally I am about 98 percent finished. 

Tom

Hi Tom,
just keep it open source.
Wasting any money on a patent application is lost money...
Please read the thread about open source versus patenting.
Many thanks.

Looking forward to your movie.
Don?t be shy to show it.

Regards, Stefan.

Hi Stefan,

Can you tell me where that thread is posted?

Thanks, 

Tom

Tom,

     I saw your Magnet_motor video posted 20 April where you hold the ring above your rotor and pulse it to make the rotor turn.  It seems an obvious question but reading the posts I had not seen it asked so here it is.  Couldn't the pulsing you were doing be replaced by a mechanical oscillator like the one that has it's own link here from the guy... I think his name sounds Russian.  Would combining the two technologies solve the problem? 

Let me know if you have tried anything similar.

Thank you.
Daniel

Hi Daniel,

I used the exact same 10 pound (two magnet) rotor turntable base you saw in my last movie. 

Thats 1/2 of my setup.

The ring you see me pulsing the rotor with did not work out so I discarded that idea.

I made an entirely NEW IDEA simple small stacked neo ring magnet DRIVER DEVICE that centers in the middle of the moving turntable.  I had been reading a lot of Hamels stuff and he seemed to focus on a certain way of doing things   I tried a certain mode of his construction and also added a lot of my own wild ideas I had tried in the past.

Was I surprised when I achieved rotation.  Not a wimpy 360 but continuous rotation.  My only problem now is constructing a small part to keep my fingers from steadying and following the axle shaft.

I may dump all I know into this site after I read more about patenting verses posting all info on the internet.  I need to read that thread first. Unable to locate it.  I just dont want money persons to set up roadblocks to to construct this device. Or start manufacturing it only for a personal profit. 

Its always been my wish to make a working device ( motor) available to all people rich or poor. I am not into this for personal profit. The only moneys I wish out of it is to cover the cost of a 200 pound box in my garage filled to the brim of 30 years worth of failed permanent magnet motor project parts. I purchased them in the past out of my pocket.  Charitys of my choosing recieve any royalties if industry is interested.

If this gets off the ground its inexpensive and very simple to construct.

Tom

Here's the thread "Open Source Vs. Patenting":

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1821.0.html

don't patent, nobody will able to see what you have done in years!

you cannot show a video about what you have so far?

Tom,

Not only because my curiosity is driving me wild but because everyone needs a second if not third opinion I would encourage you to maybe not post a video to all but perhaps a few to just act as sounding boards to make sure your not overlooking anything. I have worked with you a little in the past so I would be honored to review your findings but I would also recommend Stefan. I don't know if you read my other thread I started off of your work but I did reproduce your experiment that you had claimed worked in your first video. I found that your conclusion was wrong. Of course I'm hoping you have it this time.

Tim

Hi Tim,

The experiment with one ring magnet worked in the very first video I posted in this thread.  It was very hard to set the proper distances of the rails to get it to work.  I fooled around for a long time with this before I got it right.

Gettting back to the latest motor development:

Do you or any other interested party have the 4.5 diameter ring magnets that are 1 inch thick and can be stacked to a 3 inch thickness ?   You will need 2 each of these stacked magnets and space them out on a turntable with North poles facing outwards.  The inside South Poles facng each other should be seperated by 6.5 inches.  The magnets should be securely mounted to the turntable.

In the exact center of this Lazy susan turntable with magnets mounted on it should be a V shape indentation to accomodate a pointed axle shaft end.


Make this turntable setup and show it on this site and I will show and tell you how to make and use the DRIVER MECHANISM which is much easier to construct.

You dont have to make that little wood triangle you see mounted to the turntable. It was used for an unsuccessful prior experiment.  Its not needed.


Tom

Tom,

I currently only have three of those 4.5" ring magnets. Strong suckers!

Did you see the video I posted where I reproduced your video experiment? I configured the rail as you described with the opposite poles at the front edges of the rails but this configuration only pulled the ring in to the start and then had no desire to travel past the start. They where most attracted to the start of the rails. The only way to remotely reproduce the results in your video would be to configure the rails as show in the picture below. However, there was a huge repelling force just up to the start of the first rail and once you get it past that it propels the magnet through and out. Your video shows you letting go of the ring magnet at the same point when I let go in the video and it rolls through the rails. This is after the initial repulsion zone. I found that if you move the magnet far enough away from the rail so the repulsion is weak enough to let it roll past then the attraction is also too weak to pull the ring magnets forward. I am working on a few good ideas that should get around this problem but I am waiting until I have a firm idea what I am working with. The video I did is posted below.

Tim

Quote from: magnetman12003 on May 09, 2007, 09:18:34 PM


Do you or any other interested party have the 4.5 diameter ring magnets that are 1 inch thick and can be stacked to a 3 inch thickness ?   You will need 2 each of these stacked magnets and space them out on a turntable with North poles facing outwards.  The inside South Poles facng each other should be seperated by 6.5 inches.  The magnets should be securely mounted to the turntable.

Hi Tom

Can we scale this down and use smaller Ring Magnets as no idea where to get those 4.5 inch magnets from in the UK.

Regards

Sean.

Hi Tim and Sean,

The stagger track setup is real touchy and takes a while to get it going correctly.

I have decided to post all I know about my recent motor discovery and let everyone run with it.   Keep in mind as I stated before it requires two fingers to keep it running steadily.  A small cylinder or cone is still needed to make this a hands off motor.  Thats where many good minds can improve the basic concept.

A lot more is going to follow.

Tom

Thanks for your decision to post it all here... I have been following your progress as well as many others, that may not post and just read like me. I look forward to replicate this in the near future.

Hi Guys,

Here it is. Run with it.

Tom

Hi All,

If any industry or group is interested in building and selling this motor device please contact me directly via E mail. All about this motor setup is posted and the idea can be formatted for whatever materials you might use. You will have to experiment a little.  I recommend a fine tooth 1/4 drive Thumbwheel ratchet available from Sears. The S&K brand 1/4 inch drive.  A 3/8 inch socket was soldered on the end of a brass axle rod in my driver setup.   I will answer more questions about anything on this group site only.

My E mail for industry related questions only is 65t@comcast.net

Thanks,  Tom Ferko

Quote from: magnetman12003 on May 10, 2007, 10:49:44 AM
Hi Guys,

Here it is. Run with it.

Tom

Thanks for this Tom

Could you show us a video of it working so I can get a better picture in my mind.

Looking good though!

Regards

Sean.

Hi All,

Here is a video clip of the motor device in operation with 2 fingers. I am making the needed part to see it as a self runner. I am not pushing, pulling, or twisting a thing in this video. All skeptics please note that.


Tom Ferko

Quote from: magnetman12003 on May 12, 2007, 05:36:00 PM
Hi All,

Here is a video clip of the motor device in operation with 2 fingers. I am making the needed part to see it as a self runner. I am not pushing, pulling, or twisting a thing in this video. All skeptics please note that.


Tom Ferko

Hi Tom,
looks nice,
butaren?t you pulling the rod with the small magnet up
some times during the revolution and later pushing it down ?
Or does that go by itsself ?
Otherwise why are you still holding it with your hand ?
I have not quite yet understand the underlying principle...
Is any magnet on your turntable turning by itsself or
is only the turntable turning ?

Where is the ratched build in ?
Into the turntable axis ?
Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

Hi Tom,
I wonder, why there are always forces to repell the 2 fixed big magnets
when you lift and descend the smaller magnet ?
Why doesn?t the whole setup compensate the forces by itself ?

Are the force vectors not compensating each other ?

Is the wooden rod, where the smaller magnet is fixed
at rotating by itsself or is it fixed to the sew-saw fulcrum ?

How much energy does it need the see-saw
(small magnet or wooden rod)
to go up and down ?

Hmm, in the video it looks like you don?t put a lot of
force into it to press the see-saw up and down
and the turntable still has a good torque.

Hmm, please post more info.
Looks very interesting.
Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

Hi  Mramos,Sean, and Stefan

All the magnets I used were just ceramic ring magnets.  I never tried big neos yet but that can be easily done using this motor concept.  Make doubly sure all magnets are fixed in place securely or you might be eating them when this motor comes up to speed.  And it will.  What you saw in the movie clip was its slow speed with my two fingers trying to follow the turning axles cone shaped orbit.

I used two turntable ring magnets and stacked so each one had 3 one inch thick sections.   Two 3 inch thick, 4.5 inch diameter magnets spaced 6.5 inches from each other on the turntable.  180 degrees apart. You can experiment with whatever you have to come up with any working unit using this concept.  I found plastic pipe straps in the web Mcmaster - Carr store that held my turntable magnets in place. Different sizes are available.

The magnet on the pointed axle shaft arm was smaller than the turntable magnets. It still was a "HEAVY" stacked group of arm ceramic rings.  Heavy is imprtant here.

What I found was this:    Some weight you put on the axle shaft is centered in the direct center of the rotating turntable via the pointed shaft tip. You need that weight to keep the axle tip inside the center V notch and the ratchet head so it stays in a TILTED position . All weight is taken up by the Lazy Susan turntable bearings so no need to worry about any amount of dead weight you install on the axle. Those bearings can be made of steel by the way. No other components are ferrous.

However ---The most important part of the total dead weight of the entire driver shaft assembly "ALWAYS" -- "LEANS" by "TILTING" toward a given rotating turntable magnet.  Thats accomplished via the single magnet arm permanently attached to the axle.  You will have to experiment with the arm height and whatever dead weight you place on it.   The more arm weight the greater the turntable RPMs.

I can take closeups shots of any device part I made so far and used in the movie clip you saw.

Let me know what you need to see.  I hope Sean replicates this or for that matter anyone else thats interested.

I plan to bridge the turning turntable with a section of wood and secure its ends to the permanent base you see the turntable turning on.  That wood plank will have a very large cone shaped hole drilled into it. its inside walls will be very rough.

When the ratched head is placed inside this hole the soft rubber O ring around the ratchet head will grip the rough inside walls of the non rotating hole.  Now I can let go with two fingers and let the now TILTED axle shaft do its own thing.  A finger free self runner.

Need good ideas about a way of doing this short of using a cone shaped rachet head and inside cone walls that have gear teeth.   Thats an expensive way to go.

All magnets rotate with the turntable and does the driver device.  I am holding the thumbwheel ratchet with two fingers. That ratchet is mounted on the top of the brass axle shaft you see.  In the movie clip if you listen carefully you can hear it screaming preventing the magnet arm from going the other direction.


I cant really keep up with the perfect cone shaped orbit demanded by the axle shaft with my fingertips. I am a drag on the motor device and the arm magnet going up and down as you saw in the movie clip is a result of my jerky efferts to follow a perfect orbit.  The motor idea even works with all that!

I hope all this info helps.


Tom Ferko

Hi Guys,

You might say that gravity is playing a big part in this motor design also.

Its a marrige of gravity with permanent magnet power.

Can anyone think of a good sounding name for it other than motor device idea ?

Tom

Quote from: magnetman12003 on May 12, 2007, 11:47:38 PM


All magnets rotate with the turntable and does the driver device.  I am holding the thumbwheel ratchet with two fingers. That ratchet is mounted on the top of the brass axle shaft you see.  In the movie clip if you listen carefully you can hear it screaming preventing the magnet arm from going the other direction.

Hi Tom,
so all 3 magnets in your device rotate ?
Can you show this in another video, where you tape some e.g. white
tape onto each magnet, so one can see them rotate ?

Where is exactly the ratchet located ?
a few more pictures would also really help
to understand it better...
Also your upper drawing makes not much sense
to me, when I watch the video...
Was this an old idea ?
Where are the lead pieces in the video ??

After another look at the video I guess
all 3 magnets you have there are fixed there...
No one is rotating on its own axis, right ?

The ratched is on the same axis as the turntable axis, right ?
Please show a highres picture of it.

the smaller 3rd magnet is also fixed to its wooden rod, right ?
So it does not rotate around the wooden rod, right ?

You just lift and descend the wooden rod, right?

I just tried it with 3 magnets, 2 bigger ones and a smaller
one in my hands, but I can?t feel, that there is any torque... hmm,
the 3rd smaller magnet just wants only to push the
other 2 more far away,when I move the 3rd magnet up and down
between the 2 others..... hmmm...

Hi Stefan,

Here is a better movie clip of everything. Just freeze it and you can see all parts.

Tom

Ahh, I see now,
you have the ratched in your hand...
Hmm, this makes it all more doubtable...I guess...

As you then swing the rod with the ratched you hold in your
hand in a circle, you add energy to the system, so the big magnets
fixed to the turntable are accelerated...

Reminds me a lot about Minato, who also
used to hold the stator magnet in his hands
and added with this a little push each time the
rotor magnet passed by...
It was proven not  to work, when he fixed the stator magnet
to a nonmoving stator holder.

Well it looks like it may be time to add a cam and gears to control the oscilation,BTW looking more and more like continous energy state with direction. hmm.

About a year ago we had an even better proposal for a hand-assisted experiment: http://overunity.com/snyder/. Wesley Snyder promised to try to make it self-sustaining, that is, have it work when left on its own, untouched by the experimenter. Unfortunately, as of this writing, no such experiment has been demonstrated. Until that is accomplished any enthusiasm regarding such devices is premature, to say the least, and the titles of topics such as this must end with a question mark: ?Working SMOT ramp from Tom Ferko??

Thanks for the new Video Tom, makes it clearer now.

I do not think it will be a self runner, but I think it would be very efficent with all that torque produced with very little movement in the hand.
This is something I am looking at the moment using very small solenoids that only pull 1.5w of current but movement is only a few Millimeters.

One thought is do you actually need the Ratchet on top? placing a simple bearing will probably work with less friction, or have you found the ratchet is needed because of the amount of back force created from the magnets?

Good stuff though mate!

Regards

Sean.

Hi Guys,

As you can see by looking at the video I am totally supporting the ratchet head with my two fingers. It has no surface to ride on in the devices present state of development.  If I let go of the ratched head the whole tilted axle will fall down and of course nothing will work.

That ratchet might not even have to be used--I dont know.  The device works as it is so I am going with it and make the overhead bridge with a large cone or donut hole in the center to allow support for the ratchet head.  My fingers will be off and hopefully it will run by itself without human contact.

In an event should it not work by itself  it certainly will make one heck of a toy for those interested in magnets and gravity.

From what I feel on the ratchet head it leads the way in a circular cone fashion and my fingers try to swing in a circular orbit with little luck following it. I find my fingers to represent a drag on it.

Another point I will cover is this:  You will have to find the best position for your magnet arm thats connected to the axle shaft.  With that position found you should have a lot of arm weight leaning into the turntable magnet in front of it.

Now you will have to determine how much axle tilt was needed.   Then you will have to note just how much of a circular cone shape arc the ratchet head is swinging through. That will establishes the diameter of the cone shape hole needed to place the ratchet head in later for a finger free operation.


Hey guys,  Try this simple experiment it wont cost you a thing :  Make a pointed axle shaft and secure a wooden cross arm in its exact center.   You dont need any magnets to do this.   Now put a heavy weight on the end of the cross arm and hold the main axle shaft in a vertical position.  Nothing happens as all downward forces are centered downward on the end of the pointed axle shaft.

Now tilt the axle shaft-- What happens to the arm with the weight on it???

"IT FALLS or flops DOWNWARD"   In the motor setup that heavy magnet arm is ALWAYS falling, leaning, and using the turntable magnet in front of it as support.  The turntable moves as the magnets repell each other but they all travel together round and round and round, ect.  Understand just this fact and the entire motor concept will come to light.

Tom

 

No, as I said, until you demonstrate it as a self-sustaining device it is trivial and is of no interest.

To Omnibus,

Show a post you made in this forum that matches or betters this concept and I too will show interest.    As I understand this free energy forum is for folks interested in developing that type of motor device. Trail and error rules plus a lot of time and expense.    Any finished free energy product can be found on the front page of a major newspaper.  Look there for what you want.

Tom

I already gave a link. There were even several topics devoted to Wesley Snyder's motor in this forum. I repeat, until you demonstrate a self-sustaining device all your efforts are trivial and not worth paying attention to.

 I guess you will be moving on to bigger and better things.

Tom

Quote from: Omnibus on May 13, 2007, 07:00:27 PM
I already gave a link. There were even several topics devoted to Wesley Snyder's motor in this forum. I repeat, until you demonstrate a self-sustaining device all your efforts are trivial and not worth paying attention to.

Haven't you heard of Stepping Stones?
Paul.

@Paul-R,

These stones have already been stepped on. Everything done so far by Tom Ferko is trivial and has been tried by many others. He should hear this loud and clear.

Well hoopty-doo-daa... How about we keep trying to make it work? Tom is not saying he has it working, but he is trying to. Atleast he is being open to share his experiments with us. If it doesn't work, oh well... We'll just jump in the next wagon and keep rolling. For now lets just see what happens...

Thanks Guys,

I need that kind of support.  I hope someone other than me gets this idea running hands off. I dont care as I will be satisfied knowing this idea went all the way with other folks help.  My satisfaction will be knowing its out there and no one with big money can bury it.


In the meantime I found that the device needs the ratchet thumbwheel incorporated into it to work.

That presents a problem and the short of it is that the the thumbwheel head must rest and ride on the INSIDES of a large turnable ring bearing to make it fingers off.

Its hard to explain this untill you make the device and see for yourself what I am describing.

The axle turns one way.  The ratchet head turns the other way. The inside of the large bearing surface that the ratchet head rides on MUST turn freely with the head riding on its surface.  Exactly like my two fingers pinching the ratchet head while following the axle orbit.   Having done that it will self run. 

Tom

@Duranza,

No one is stopping you from doing experiments. On the contrary. Don't present the results so far as if anything is accomplished, though. This is what I object to. Many others have reached this point long ago. Show a self-sustaining device and this will be a completely different conversation then.

Hi Tom:
   I have some ring mags from old MW ovens where the face is the pole. About 3" maybe, would these be any good to set this up and give it a whirl? Just getting the better of me.

@Omnibus
   No one makes you read this forum so why must you heckle him? His time, money and efforts. None from you.

@sugra,

That he spends his money doesn't impress me. Couldn't care less. He is wasting inappropriately, however, the bandwidth of a forum I am following. He is interfering in my freedom, if you want to put it in these terms.

He's free to make his own forum and pretend he has a working self-sustaining SMOT all he wants.

   Well thats interesting. Stephan provides the bandwidth. Oh well, who am I.



S

Hi Omnibus,
please cool down.
Please let TOM continue in his search,
it is always very important to try these experiments.

Maybe he will find a different or simular solution that really works.

So far as I understand it now, he is looking for an "always falling weight"
which pushed his turntable forward and thus turning.

Let us see, if he can find that.
If he will get the force vectors right,maybe he will succeed or find
a different new clue ?

We have enough bandwidth to host more nice movie clips ! ;)

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

Hi Stefan,

You hit the nail on the head.  This setup always has a magnet arm weight leaning, falling, dropping, or whatever else you might call it.  Its weight is directed onto a turntable magnet which of course is free to turn the way you wish by how you setup the ratchet

The selection of clockwise or counterclockwise by the one way ratchet will be your direction of choice.

Keep in mind that when the axle magnet arm weight pushes onto the turntable magnet there is a equal and opposite push force the other way.  The arm is blocked from going that way because of the ratchets one way mechanical setup.  Pinching the setup ratchet head prevents the axle from rotating the way you dont want it to spin. It has to go the other way--- Why?

Why does the magnet arm just push the rotating turntable magnet forward out of its path and fall down?

The other large magnet on the turntable that was not pushed by the magnet arm always comes from behind and keeps repelling the magnet arm to constantly lean on the turntable magnet in front of it. Remember the magnet arm can only move ONE WAY. All the magnets repell one another.  Note:The magnets never touch each other because of the repelling forces between them.

Sort of like a dog chasing his own tail but in this case gravity is doing most of the work. Look at the last video once more and you see 10 pounds of magnets spinning with a two finger touch.  Sure its not a self runner yet but gravity and magnetic forces are at work to make that TORQUE spin. Not me. I am not performing a magic trick using two finger power.

Believe me its not finger power doing it or wrist motion.  Take a pointed stick and place it dead center between two turntable magnets like you saw in the video and tilt it.  Nothing happens.  Now make the drive device and FEEL what happens.

The biggest hurdle yet to overcome is the tilted axle shaft aspect.  Who has an idea on how to use a VERTICAL axle with a single magnet arm mounted that does the "LEAN ON THE TURNTABLE MAGNET TRICK" ?   You hold the keys to a self runner.

It will be real easy to pin the ratchet head in a vertical position and watch the motor concept work.   I am wide open for any and all good ideas and hope someone else will try to construct this device and make it into a self runner.  He will most certainly find it a lot of fun no matter what happens.   

I already cranked the insides out of a cheap ratchet head I was using.  The ratchet screams while the device is operating.  Will by a quality S&K fine tooth thumbwheel next.

Tom

Hi Guys,
I am going on vacation for a week but here is a untried thought I had for a VERTICAL axle setup that might work.

The yellow frame with four small magnets attached to it also has the one way ratchet axle in the center. Its permanently mounted.  The four large turntable magnets rotate in the direction indicated.

You can figure out most for yourself.  The turntable magnets are not connected to the yellow framework setup with the smaller magnets at all.

Notice the repel forces go around clockwise. The ratchet always keeps the yellow framework and 4 smaller magnets from moving counter clockwise.

Maybe this can work and the ratchet head (with attached axle below it) can be clamped overhead while in a vertical position.

Tom

Hi Stefan,

I have never had any intention in stopping Tom from doing his experiments. On the contrary. All I want is for him to learn that he hasn't done anything original so far and to abandon his wrong impression, which you can sense in almost every post of his, that he is giving something new to the world. We've seen a lot of overly enthusiastic persons and we need to cool them down for the benefit of the success we all expect. False claims amount to nothing and only feed the attacks of the critics. Tom should know that 99.99% closeness to self-sustaining motor is equal to zero in this exploration. Only 100% self-sustaining motor is success and only then Tom should use statements such as "it works", "it will work" and so on in his postings. I strongly feel that he should be told that.

Hi Omnibus,

So what you are saying then that everybodys post in the overunity group should describe their finished self runner and nothing else?? 

All postings in this entire group dont amount to a hill of beans unless they have a self runner to back their post up??   All or any posting of course must meet with your personal blessings before they are posted.

As far as "it works or it will work" made by me goes I will go along with that and describe everthing from now on as a motor " DEVICE". To illustrate any working device I will show a movie.

When I get this idea to self run I will call it just that--"A self running permanent magnet motor"  I will then drop the DEVICE name.

This device is my last and closest attempt to make a self runner.  I plan to keep at it untill that happens.

I need to find a good way to have gravity lean one magnet into another magnet all the time in a circular related form. I believe the answer lies there.

I am taking a week of vacation to rest up. Gone fishing. Untill then--


Tom

Hi Tom,

No, I'm not saying that. The only thing I meant to say is not to announce that there is just one little thing to be ironed out and the self-sustaining device is undoubtedly ready to go. I'm saying in my words what I meant when I mentioned the 99.99%. That little 0.01% is the culprit that no one has ever been able to overcome so that others can reproduce  and until that's done, please, don't say you have it working. If that 0.01% is not overcome the motor is not working at all in a sense of a self-sustaining motor. Everyone here knows that it's very difficult to solve just that 0.01% of the problem. Everything else. the remaining 99.99% has already been done by many, years ago at that.

I think people are a bit touchy. notice the "?" in the title. I think we all could use a little breather.

A form of an always falling weight is the principle we all are searching for. Such device are very hard to make as it actually isn't performing any loop or repetition. An always falling object will always find itself in a new condition all the time. A rotating device will always repeat all the conditions within one or "n" numbers of revolutions, and that requires energy to make a new falling start - it's like climbing the mountains and falling down in a parachute over and over again without using energy do climb up the mountain to make a new fall.
So how to make a rotating device, performing an continuous change in condition, when it repeat itself, should be an impossible task to solve. However, if no one try, the solution will never be found.

Btw: Have you Stefan had any ideas of an OU machine on this forum? :)

Br.

Vidar

Stefan, thanks for adding the question mark to the title. It was misleading otherwise.

d3adp00l's theory for a working pmm

1. a field ocsilation is necesary

2. magnetic frustration must be equal along the path of travel

3. the direction of torque must be unified

In other words, at some point 1/2 of the fields need to change polarity, magnetic frustration is the condition of a magnet being attracted/repulsed to ferrous metal or another magnet at all point of travel this condition has to be constant with no point of lesser frustration(the motor will stick there), and if the fore said frustration creates a torque on a moving part the torque at all points of travel have to be in the same direction.

Create a design that satisfies those conditions and it will work. Also think in all 3 dimensions when designing, not just planar 2d thinking.

Hi Guys,
I am back from vacation and am constructing another center pivot device that will not have to be tilted to get the turntable to move.  Now the center will have a Vertical shaft.  The ratchet will be eliminated if not needed.   I now have added lead weights to the driver mechanism.

This will be my last attempt to make a self runner and while on vacation It all came to me just how to do it. 

When finished I will be displaying a real nice movie of a working self runner with no human contact whatsoever.

My whole motor device working concept is similar to this analogy:

You are holding a heavy weight with arms extended in front of you. A bench ( with wheels under it) is there to place the weight on and just as you do so -- the bench now with MOST of the weight on it rolls forward in a circular fashion with your arms still holding a SMALL part of the weight-- the bench keeps rolling with you running CONSTANTLY after it.

Why are you constantly running after it?? 

The precise instant you placed the weight on the bench you are pushed constantly from the REAR real hard.  Its actually the exact same weight force that you placed on the bench. Its delivered to your backside by a circular orbit.

If the bench with wheels on it travels in a circular orbit so will you.   My magnet  turntable described  travels in a circular orbit.

This is the best I can describe whats going on.  Its blending ALL REPEL magnetic energy with "GRAVITY" doing most of the real work.

Who has a good name for this device motor attempt should it work-- and it will.

Tom

Sorry guys- no movie of a self runner.

My two finger touch motor device is now in the hands now of a free energy company who was  interested enough in taking it to the next level of self run status. No human contact. All arrangements both financial and otherwise will be kept private.   

Make the device as described in my prior listings and see what your able to do.  If you can make the device operate without two fingers you score a home run.   

Its now a very long waiting game with me now to see how things go.

Tom

Well this is the end to this motor.... Unless the free energy company shares the secret of how to make it hands free...

Hi All,
I was sort of hoping someone would have attempted to replicate the motor device I talked about and illustrated in detail. All in this forum. No secrets were hidden.  I even posted a movie clip.    I only have one question to ask. 

Did anyone bother to replicate this motor device and acually experiment with it ? 

As far as "this is the end of this motor" goes thats not true.  Everyone that takes a little time/effort and cracks their wallet can construct one and maybe beat the company to find just how to make this into a hands off self runner.   All of you know as much as I do at present.

Tom

And if you had cracked your wallet, you could have gotten there. But rather than following the premise of the forum, open source, you have chosen rather to try and cash yourself out. Look out for number1, would seem to be your premise. Have fun with that.

Hi,

I dont think giving every red cent to charity is a cop out.

Tom

Hi Mramos,

I did manage to catch and release a few trout.  Enjoyed my vacation in the wild.  Wish I could have stayed longer.

A note about the motor device:  I did not sign anything that gives a company full possession of this idea.  It will always be open for anyone interested in taking it to the next level of a self runner with no human contact.

If you decide to give it a try you will find yourself playing with it for hours on end. I actually wore out a thumbwheel ratchet!   


If made correctly the HEAVY magnet on the wooden arm you saw in the movie should ALWAYS "Center position itself between the two large magnets on the turntable". All polaritys are in the repel mode.  Then just tilt the center axle a bit and the magnet arm swings downward /forward and the fun begins. 

I know the "WEIGHT" of the arm magnet is always leaning on the large turntable magnet in "FRONT" of it.  The arm magnet weight force spins the turntable around and the other large turntable magnet "BEHIND" the swinging arm pushes the arm forward again all at the same time. This starts the whole process over again.  Really neat to do and see.

Now--- If one can do all that with the center shaft in a vertical position they have jumped the hoop into making this a self runner.  Believe me I have tried out many ideas to do just that to no avail.  By the way- IF THE CENTER AXLE DEVICE WITH ATTACHED MAGNET ARM MAKES ANY CONTACT WHATSOEVER WITH THE SPINNING TURNTABLE ALL ACTION CEASES. The only contact the axle and arm assembly should make with the turntable is where the bottom pointed tip of the axle meets the center point of the turntable. You are just pinch finger holding the top ratchet end of the tilted axle.

Remember that this device apparently runs on weight/gravity and all repel magnets act like springs keeping eveything spaced apart.


Tom

Hi All,

This is a motordevice update.

Tom

Device turntable diagram

DEVICE DISK DRIVER MECHANISM