Hi,
Came up with this iea as a follow up for the "Notch-motor" I have posted earlier.
I have no time to explain things in detail, but for you skilled persons might have a though about how this "work".
The image is suppose to be animated... Doesn't seem to work from my computer...
Here is a link: http://www.lyd-interior.no/Technical/Notch-motor-type-2.gif (http://www.lyd-interior.no/Technical/Notch-motor-type-2.gif)
The idea is this:
Cancelling the sticky spot by balance the rotor and stator between attractive and repelling force by use of the notch. Please see this video I made on youtube for how two opposing magnets can actually be neutrilized inside the notch. [size=78%]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obV4bUd4JmI&feature=g-upl (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obV4bUd4JmI&feature=g-upl)[/size]
The same, but opposite will happen between two attractive magnets. However, the notch will then repel with the same force when the two magnets are meshed together.
Vidar
In the video I tested only two magnet assamblies. Now I made three, just to check how the "rotor" magnet behaves between the two stator assamblies side by side with opposite polarity. I approached the "rotor magnet" towards the attracting stator assambly. By my surprise, the "sticky spot" between the two stator assamblies, the "rotor magnet" was forced towards the repelling assambly. That means that the rotor will be supplied with extra force in the direction I want, instead of being stopped and locked at a sticky spot.
I will build a circular prototype with speaker magnets. Cut them in half so one side has opposite polarity.
Vidar
The animation below is suppose to explain in more detail what I observe with the current magnet alignment.
http://www.lyd-interior.no/Technical/Notch-motor-type_2-explained.gif (http://www.lyd-interior.no/Technical/Notch-motor-type_2-explained.gif)
Does anyone have any idea if it is possible to simulate the above experiment in FEMM?
I hope it is possible to simulate with an eqivalent setup because FEMM works only in 2 dimensions...I just can't "see" how that should be done.
Maybe someone have Maxwell-software?
Vidar
Quote from: Low-Q on September 21, 2012, 08:04:45 AM
...
I will build a circular prototype with speaker magnets. Cut them in half so one side has opposite polarity.
Vidar
Hi Vidar,
I wonder what tools you can use for cutting the magnets. I assume you use diamond cutter disk run at low rpm?
I think there are some members here using Maxwell 3D, unfortunately it takes time to create the model and then more time to run the simulations.
rgds, Gyula
Quote from: gyulasun on September 25, 2012, 08:44:15 AM
Hi Vidar,
I wonder what tools you can use for cutting the magnets. I assume you use diamond cutter disk run at low rpm?
I think there are some members here using Maxwell 3D, unfortunately it takes time to create the model and then more time to run the simulations.
rgds, Gyula
These magnets are hard to cut, anf dust from the magnets will be hard to remove. Actually, I want to stack 3 magnets upon eachother, and align them to make that shape (Except the shape at the back side will not be flat).
The upper and lower layer of the stationary magnet will at first repel the tip of the moving magnet when the assamblies mesh together - at the same time as the upper and lower layer of the moving magnet is attracting the stationary assambly.
Sliding the moving magnet along the notch/pit is (should be) easy, and the tip of the moving magnet will in the center start to attract the other halfs upper and lower layers for a short while (I know this by my first experiment - i don't know why that happend exactly, but I have a theory)
And then after sliding a bit more the tip will attract to these layers at the same time as the upper and lower layers of the moving magnet repel just as much.
Therfor it is easy to separate them where repelling forces will suddenly become greater than the attraction of the moving magnets tip (As shown on youtube).
I must use some tape between the layers of the stationary magnet so there is space enough for the tip of the moving magnet assambly to enter the notch/pit.
This far it seems there is three places where positive gain is present. I can't find out where there is opposite forces which accounts for the gain.
I just want to confirm where the sticky spot is (if it is present), as I am in general pretty sceptic to overunity... I am a little exited though :-)
Vidar
Maybe the way these magnets are aligned is a way to avoid the sticky spot? If it is, I will be a dead man tomorrow :-(
Vidar
Hi Vidar,
Just try to build it, that is the best answer. No amount of talking / rambling can give real answers.
If you still happen to find one or two sticky spots, then it is still a good step to use small electromagnets at those spots IF the permanent magnets would give the rotational torque during most parts of one full rotation.
rgds, Gyula
Quote from: gyulasun on September 25, 2012, 12:18:20 PM
Hi Vidar,
Just try to build it, that is the best answer. No amount of talking / rambling can give real answers.
If you still happen to find one or two sticky spots, then it is still a good step to use small electromagnets at those spots IF the permanent magnets would give the rotational torque during most parts of one full rotation.
rgds, Gyula
I am on my way gluing magnets together. They are so cheap so it would not be much economic loss anyways....normal ferrite magnets, as they are easier and safer to handle ;-)
What makes you think having no sticky spot means overunity?
I have seen several motors without sticky spots but they only run smoother they still consume more then they can generate.
Quote from: ionizer on September 26, 2012, 12:55:16 AM
What makes you think having no sticky spot means overunity?
I have seen several motors without sticky spots but they only run smoother they still consume more then they can generate.
I see the confusion.
Generally, a magnet motor will have as much energy to run as the counter energy which balance the output to zero. A sticky spot isn't neccessarily the cause why the motor doesn't run, but in my preliminary experiments I have observed only "driving forces", and no counter force, or "sticky spots" which should stop the experiment from running. There hasn't been any obstacles in the cycle, so to speak.
But again, this is preliminary experiments, and done by hand - and as you all know, experiments by hand will very often confuse the conclusion.
I am in progress with a simple prototype. That experiment will tell everything wether this works or not.
Vidar
I remember somebody on this forum I think it was bill, saying that if you clamp 2 magnates together
the opposing fields after an amount of time change back to a normal configuration.
I could be wrong on this so I will send bill a linked to this
Quote from: powercat on September 26, 2012, 06:10:47 AM
I remember somebody on this forum I think it was bill, saying that if you clamp 2 magnates together
the opposing fields after an amount of time change back to a normal configuration.
I could be wrong on this so I will send bill a linked to this
OK. I'm not sure how you picture the "clamp together". Do you mean clamped together as the bar I have drawn in reply #3?
The fields between the moving and the stationary magnets are vertically aligned (South and north up or down), so it should not weaken the magnets the same way as when the field is opposing eachother directly south towards south for example....
I'll wait to see what Bill meant about this. Thanks for the input.
Vidar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obV4bUd4JmI&feature=g-upl (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obV4bUd4JmI&feature=g-upl)
I was looking at the video you linked in Reply 1 , the meshing together of the magnates
which made me recall reading something about magnates been clamped together.
It's good to hear you don't think there is a problem.
Breaking the sticking spot problem would indeed be a great leap forward.
If a magnet can move 1 inch why not 1 mile
All the best
PC
Hi,
Here is the first experiment with ferrite magnets (Speaker magnets). Stationary magnet has a stack of three (Two big and one small) magnets with a few washers between as spacers so the moving magnet (same size as the middle magnet in the stack) can enter the notch/pit freely.
As surface I have two aluminium plates.
Notice where the neutral position is for both attraction and repel mode.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnZ4oedqf8w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnZ4oedqf8w)
Vidar
now without using hands
Quote from: ionizer on September 26, 2012, 02:27:04 PM
now without using hands
The hands are there just to align the magnets. When the magnets initially repels, the position where they are neither repelling or attracting is so delicate, only friction on the surface stopped the moving magnet from flying away. You see that I move the stationay magnet maybe 1 mm at max, which was enough to trigger the powerful repelling action (Which is pretty amazing itself). This last video is only showing how the assambly works.
To be continued ;-)
Vidar
Vidar,
When you have the moving magnet so it repels, if you move it too far, does it pull into the slot?
It looks like this might work!
Try using non-magnetic spacers, and make two stacks like this:
NS-spacer-SN-spacer. You will have to glue it so it stays together since the like poles are facing.
Flip one over so it's spacer-NS-spacer-SN . Now see how they interact when approaching sideways like you are doing.
I've found positions where the stacks are not in contact, but are stably magnetically connected. I call this a non-contact trailer hitch. It's a stable position of the magnets where they aren't touching but don't want to get closer together or further apart.
Quote from: lumen on September 26, 2012, 04:09:40 PM
Vidar,
When you have the moving magnet so it repels, if you move it too far, does it pull into the slot?
It looks like this might work!
There is a small area where the magnets does not repel or attract. If I move the moving magnet slightly into the slot, the magnet will be pulled in. If the magnet is slightly outside the slot, it will be pushed away. The exact opposite happens in attraction mode - as you see in the video. The moving magnet is pushed out if it is inside the slot, untill it rests at the edge of the stationary magnet.
The reason why this is happening in repel mode is because the moving magnet, at this exact spot, repel the circumference of the stationary magnet as much as it is attracted to the horisontal surface inside the slot. Moving the magnet too far in, the magnetism inside the slot will dominate, and therfor pull the magnet further in. Moving the magnet too far out, the magnetism of the circumference will dominate, and push the magnet away.
This is a very incorrect educational explanation - it is no actual "magnetism at the circumference", but there is magnetic forces that dominates depending of alignments of the two magnets.
Further, since the magnetic forces are nullified at that spot, would it be possible to turn the moving magnet effordless in order to convert it from attraction mode to repel mode? That will be answered tomorrow, or Friday.
Vidar
Quote from: Low-Q on September 26, 2012, 02:58:25 PM
The hands are there just to align the magnets. When the magnets initially repels, the position where they are neither repelling or attracting is so delicate, only friction on the surface stopped the moving magnet from flying away. You see that I move the stationay magnet maybe 1 mm at max, which was enough to trigger the powerful repelling action (Which is pretty amazing itself). This last video is only showing how the assambly works.
To be continued ;-)
Vidar
1 mm max ? Actually no.
I see you push the other magnet the entire way back using your hands.
That's where you put in kinetic energy which is released when you trigger it and that is where the energy for the amazing powerfull repelling action comes from.
And you will always have to put in that amount of energy to get that reaction.
That is why i said now without hands.
The hands are your power supply it will not work without you pushing those magnets all the way back to charge the system.
And you know it.
Quote from: ionizer on September 26, 2012, 07:52:35 PM
1 mm max ? Actually no.
I see you push the other magnet the entire way back using your hands.
That's where you put in kinetic energy which is released when you trigger it and that is where the energy for the amazing powerfull repelling action comes from.
And you will always have to put in that amount of energy to get that reaction.
That is why i said now without hands.
The hands are your power supply it will not work without you pushing those magnets all the way back to charge the system.
And you know it.
Just for your reference, this experiment isn't any over unity. Ofcourse I spend energy to place the magnet. However, over unity isn't the point in this particular case, but a demonstration of how a particular magnet setup repel, attract or not depending on positioning.
The question is wether or not this type of setup CAN be interesting in case of a self running magnet motor - after a few minor modifications.
Vidar
Ah i see.
But, no it can not be used to make a self running magnet motor.
Sorry to disapoint.
Unless you build it to certain external frequency specific energy carrying or moving fieldlines then it can possible run on that energy but only if it is strong enough to overcome frictional losses.
But then again, it would not be overunity right.
Then it would be free energy given that you do not have to pay for it.
But not from some magnets alone.
No way.
Bottom line is that you need an energy source to start with.
No energy source no movement it's that simple.
Vidar,
I think you may have solved the problem!
The concept is very simple, the field in the gap is very strong and to another magnet entering as attraction, the gap would have the opposite polarity and is pushed out of the slot.
So there is a balance point at some distance into the slot.
With the magnet in repulsion, the magnet would be pulled into the slot, but at the right distance into the slot, the magnet is again in balance.
This situation solves all the required conditions to move from attraction to repulsion without input energy and this is the critical point that you can just glide through!
I agree, your mortor design should work and will also need no input to start running.
Quote from: lumen on September 27, 2012, 01:07:46 AM
Vidar,
I think you may have solved the problem!
The concept is very simple, the field in the gap is very strong and to another magnet entering as attraction, the gap would have the opposite polarity and is pushed out of the slot.
So there is a balance point at some distance into the slot.
With the magnet in repulsion, the magnet would be pulled into the slot, but at the right distance into the slot, the magnet is again in balance.
This situation solves all the required conditions to move from attraction to repulsion without input energy and this is the critical point that you can just glide through!
I agree, your mortor design should work and will also need no input to start running.
You have correctly understood the concept. What remains is if this really works in real life.
I have tested the same setup as with the ferrite magnets, but replaced the moving ferrite magnet with a long neo-magnet (70 x 5 x 5 mm) polarized through thickness. With this I tried to turn it 180 degrees while it was positioned at the neutral position with the "tip" towards the slot, but that does not work. The magnet really want to stay in "attraction mode" - just to see if THAT one worked. Also the neo magnet is so strong it swaped polarity at one point of the ferrite magnet... But don't worry. I have more of these ferrites - lots of them.
I must make a special magnet, cylinder shaped magnet made of ferrite, and polarized through diameter. Yesterday I bought a small bag with assorted round ferrite disc magnets. I will stack them, and then use a neo magnet to polarize them as I want. But I also need to extent that magnet with a bigger cylindrical magnet with same polarization in order to cover the upper and lower stationary magnets - under and above the slot.
This way the big cylindrical magnet is forced to turn 180 degrees at the same time as the smaller part inside the slot wants to stay. Hopefully the torque will cancel out making it easy to turn 180 degrees.
I will make a drawing of the moving magnet as I want it to look like. Will be posted soon.
Vidar
Quote from: ionizer on September 27, 2012, 12:51:03 AM
Ah i see.
But, no it can not be used to make a self running magnet motor.
Sorry to disapoint.
Unless you build it to certain external frequency specific energy carrying or moving fieldlines then it can possible run on that energy but only if it is strong enough to overcome frictional losses.
But then again, it would not be overunity right.
Then it would be free energy given that you do not have to pay for it.
But not from some magnets alone.
No way.
Bottom line is that you need an energy source to start with.
No energy source no movement it's that simple.
You might be right. However, this is a pretty inexpencive experiment, so it is worth a try anyways. As a sceptic to OU I have a bad feeling, but also a good feeling... the experiments will tell the true story.
Vidar
This is what I want to try. See pictures (They should explain themself)
Vidar,
Placing the color in the slot only shows what you already have. You need to view this as field lines not as colors or poles.
If you put the end view of the slotted magnet in FEMM you will see the field in the slot flowing in the magnets direction, where the field outside the magnet flows around to the back of the magnet (opposite direction of whats in the slot)
What this makes is a far reaching field and a strong local field in the opposite direction. The problem is going to be moving from the far reaching attract, into the far reaching repel, because the repel influence will be there before you reach the neturalizing slot.
So it will likely repel the junction befor you get to it. I think you can avoid this by making the slot a bit wider and use a smaller magnet that can further hide in the slot from the far reaching repel area.
Or using a diametrically polarized cylinder magnet, where after the attraction when it reaches the neutral point in the slot, you could rotate the magnet 180 and have it repel out another attraction side. It should rotate with no force at the netural point. This will avoid the far reaching repel problem because it does not exist!
This is what you are showing?
Quote from: Low-Q on September 27, 2012, 07:32:29 AM
You might be right. However, this is a pretty inexpencive experiment, so it is worth a try anyways. As a sceptic to OU I have a bad feeling, but also a good feeling... the experiments will tell the true story.
Vidar
True it never hurts to try.
Good luck.
When it doesn't work out as hoped, and you are looking for a new and more promising direction just let me know.
Quote from: lumen on September 27, 2012, 11:44:58 AM
Vidar,
Placing the color in the slot only shows what you already have. You need to view this as field lines not as colors or poles.
If you put the end view of the slotted magnet in FEMM you will see the field in the slot flowing in the magnets direction, where the field outside the magnet flows around to the back of the magnet (opposite direction of whats in the slot)
What this makes is a far reaching field and a strong local field in the opposite direction. The problem is going to be moving from the far reaching attract, into the far reaching repel, because the repel influence will be there before you reach the neturalizing slot.
So it will likely repel the junction befor you get to it. I think you can avoid this by making the slot a bit wider and use a smaller magnet that can further hide in the slot from the far reaching repel area.
Or using a diametrically polarized cylinder magnet, where after the attraction when it reaches the neutral point in the slot, you could rotate the magnet 180 and have it repel out another attraction side. It should rotate with no force at the netural point. This will avoid the far reaching repel problem because it does not exist!
This is what you are showing?
Something like that, yes. For example, when the moving magnet is far out, it will be "seen" as a normal magnet that is attracted by the stationary magnet, and the far reaching field will dominate the force between them. And vica versa. As the moving magnet is forced into the slot, the attracting forces will gradually decrease, and finally be zero when the magnets are meshed together.
The far reaching field will still attract to the larger diameter, but the strong local field will repel the smaller diameter. The last field want the magnet to turn 180 degrees due to the repulsive force, but the far reaching field will not due to the attraction.
However, the diameter of the outside part of the moving magnet is larger, so probably the torque required to turn the magnet 180 degrees will probably be greater than the torque inside the local strong field. At the same time, the local force is stronger, and hopefully will compensate for the smaller diameter and its torque.
Vidar
Quote from: ionizer on September 27, 2012, 11:56:47 AM
True it never hurts to try.
Good luck.
When it doesn't work out as hoped, and you are looking for a new and more promising direction just let me know.
"When it doesn't work..."; Yes, then I will try something new. By experience I know it's hard to trick nature ;-))
However, IF it works, the motor should cool down and require heat from the surroundings to keep going. Maybe this is a new approach to a efficient heat engine with magnets? But then this will not be a selfrunner as I want it to be :)
Vidar
@Vidar:
Sounds like promising experiments :) I'm looking forward to what you discover and share with us.
truesearch
Vidar,
I am to busy to work on this at this time but I couldn't resist doing some modeling on this setup. This is what I have found to be the main problem and it should be able to be compensated for.
The field in the gap is very strong and works at close distances which results in a non linear effect where the field outside the gap is large and has a linear effect on a rotating diametrically polarized cylinder magnet.
During rotation at the netural position, the outer field provides nearly constant torque. The inner field's torque drops off quickly during rotation because the poles move from the close tolerance netural position to the center of the gap at the 90 deg. rotation. This loss lets the outer field again dominate the rotation and resist rotation.
I think at this point the solution will end up being the shape of the magnet entering the gap to correct for the loss during rotation. This will probably perform better using a square or an oval magnet, at least for the shape entering the gap.
Once this is corrected for, I see no other problems in it's operation.
I was testing the action as a simple piston configuration with the magnet entering as being pulled into position, then rotated, then pushed away.
Quote from: lumen on September 28, 2012, 01:23:11 PM
Vidar,
I am to busy to work on this at this time but I couldn't resist doing some modeling on this setup. This is what I have found to be the main problem and it should be able to be compensated for.
The field in the gap is very strong and works at close distances which results in a non linear effect where the field outside the gap is large and has a linear effect on a rotating diametrically polarized cylinder magnet.
During rotation at the netural position, the outer field provides nearly constant torque. The inner field's torque drops off quickly during rotation because the poles move from the close tolerance netural position to the center of the gap at the 90 deg. rotation. This loss lets the outer field again dominate the rotation and resist rotation.
I think at this point the solution will end up being the shape of the magnet entering the gap to correct for the loss during rotation. This will probably perform better using a square or an oval magnet, at least for the shape entering the gap.
Once this is corrected for, I see no other problems in it's operation.
I was testing the action as a simple piston configuration with the magnet entering as being pulled into position, then rotated, then pushed away.
Thanks for working a bit on this when you have time :-)
I try to experiment with the initial setup - the sliding magnets. Not easy to come to any conclusion yet. I will post a new video of this test this weekend or the first days next week. First I must go buy more of these ferrite magnets (Those you find inside magnetic locks for cabinet doors). They are cheap to experiment with :-)
I have played with the sliding magnets idea. Sliding magnets from attraction to repulsion mode between arrays of magnets - inside the neutreal position. It does not work. The attraction and repulsion is OK, and the neutral position is OK, but when I try to slide the moving magnet from attraction to repulsion mode, the moving magnet oppose to swap side.
So I have changed the setup a bit - in theory. I did an experiment in FEMM, but again FEMM is pretty much useless to determind forces others than X and Y directions. However, the Y forces might be interesting in this setup to possibly determine the Z axis force in the experiment below.
You see the cross section of two opposite conical ring magnets. One stationary and one moving (A+B). The A+B magnet is a ring that is magnetized through diameter. Well, you see the polarity of all of them.
The arrows shows the forces between the magnets. At that particular position there is as much X force as Y force. The Y force interests me. That is the force which is repelling the magnet away.
There are two pictures, where picture two where the A+B magnet has turned 180 degrees - in repel mode. Not sure if you guys see this, so I have made a 3D drawing of the idea.
Quote from: Low-Q on September 26, 2012, 10:11:14 AM
OK. I'm not sure how you picture the "clamp together". Do you mean clamped together as the bar I have drawn in reply #3?
The fields between the moving and the stationary magnets are vertically aligned (South and north up or down), so it should not weaken the magnets the same way as when the field is opposing eachother directly south towards south for example....
I'll wait to see what Bill meant about this. Thanks for the input.
Vidar
Vidar:
Sorry for the delay in my reply. Powercat pm'd me a while ago and I just now read and replied to his message. I did not read all the way through this topic yet so, you may be past this....but just in case....
A few years ago I too two ferrite disk magnets and glued them (superglue) with like poles together. (I do not remember if it was NN or SS) Instantly, to my great disappointment, the two together acted like a single thicker magnet with one pole on each end.
My thought process was that it took work to bring them together and, the glue was constantly doing work keeping them together so, something cool might be observed. I still have them stuck to my fridge and they still only have one pole on each end of the stack. I hope this helps in some way. I considered my experiment a failure but, I did learn something.
By the way, to cut the ferrite magnets you do need diamond tooling and, very important, a lot of coolant. The coolant could be just water but you need to keep it cool to protect the diamond blade, AND, if you locally heat any part of the magnet above the Currie temperature....guess what? No more magnet. Just a hunk of ferrite. It could be remagnetized but, that might cost more than getting new ones.
Best of luck to you on your new design here. One never knows for sure unless you try.
Bill
Hi Pirate,
Maybe a tile cutter can do the job? Anyways I have a diamond cutter I can use too. The biggest problem is the shape.
To be honest, and realistic, I think I never can make such shapes to test the idea.
Vidar
Vidar,
The concept of the diametric cylinder rotating between two ring magnets could work. You just need to think of it in reverse, the important part is the part inside/ between the ring magnets. The part outside is used only for balance to allow rotation.
The main problem with the original concept is that the cylinder outside the ring magnets caused more rotational force than the part inside the ring magnets. Change this to always operate inside the ring magnets and rotate when enough has moved outside to balance the rotation.
Sorry I don't have time to do a sketch right now so I will try to get something in a few weeks weeks if you don't understand.