I was hooked on his wheel about 20 years ago when i had read about it in a perpetual motion book but had no idea he had left clues till this week
I know there have been a million ideas on how it worked and here is mine based on what he has shown us and it seems to fit his description rather well
first you must look at this clue i think he is showing us the secret to both his wheels here the one way early wheel and the one that turns in both directions
Clues to the Wheel's Design Machine was set in motion by weights.
- Bessler
Weights acted in pairs
- Bessler
Weights gained force from their own swinging (or movement).
- Bessler
Weights came to be placed together, arranged one against another.
- Bessler
Weights applied force at right angles to the axis.
- Bessler
Springs were employed, but not as detractors suggested.
- Bessler
The machine's power was directly proportional to its diameter.
- Bessler
Weights may have been pierced in the middle and attached by connecting springs (observer speculation).
- Acta Eridutorum, An Account of the Perpetuum Mobile of J. E. E. Orffyreus, 1715
Weights were heard hitting the side of the wheel going down.
- eyewitness accounts
Machine (Gera wheel) made scratching noises, as if parts or poles moved over one another.
- eyewitness accounts
Weights may have been attached to movable or elastic arms on the periphery of the wheel (observer speculation).
- Johann Christian Wolff, eyewitness account
Weights may have landed on planks/boards at right angles to the circumference of the wheel.
- Johann Christian Wolff, eyewitness account
Weights were cylindrical.
- Johann Christian Wolff, eyewitness account
About 8 weights fell during each revolution of the wheel, which took about 3 seconds. (Kassel wheel diameter ~ 12 feet)
- Joseph Fischer, eyewitness account
When the oiled cloth was removed and left nude wrote Count Karl, he found himself gazing upon a very simple arrangement of weights and levers. He never disclosed the secret what he had seen. However, Karl did state to his ministers that he believed the wheel was a true perpetual motion machine and he was amazed that no one had invented a similar machine before Bessler. He also stated that machine was so simple and easy to understand that a "carpenters boy" could build one after seeing inside the wheel.
Leibniz and his student remained confused about the source of motive power that moved machine. Orffyreus explained that by the grace of almighty he had conceived a system whereby the weights one side of the wheel were farther from the axle than the weights on the other side of the wheel, creating an imbalance which caused the wheel to rotate. The secret laid in the ingenuity of the design by which weights on the ascending side of the wheel were prevented from following their normal path next to the rim. Count Karl explained that small pegs, which swung back out of the way as the weight passed the zenith, blocked these weights. Again Karl assured Orffyreus not to disclose or use Bessler's secret until a sale had been finalised.
Yes, that could it be.. !
Really bright ideas !
Can somebody wth WM2D or with a different 3D simulator try this please out !
Small tip, where he wrote PIVOT is the fixation to the wheel, so these see-saw type
devices strech their weights out at the right side of the wheel , so they turn clockwise !
So in these Pivot points they are fixed to the wheel !
Pretty simple, if this will really work ?
Regards. Stefan.
dom444
Welcome to the forum. I see you are reading about Bessler. The simple designs you have shown are well know for most of us you have followed Bessler have tried them. Changing height for width as an old college would say. I myself have physically built the second one before and it just sat there. There is a trick to reading the toy page IMHO of course. But it looks like you are on the Bessler path and it is an interesting one to follow. just another note for you CF will give you trouble as it did myself. I spun the one wheel and all the parts just stayed out and then it came to a stand still.
Again Welcome to the forum
Alan
I think the trick is in the construction and how well the system is built in particular the peg he talks about and the placement of that peg is important
and the other factor is the T pendulum he shows a lot of these system will not work because centripetal force will lock everything up unless slowed down to a point where everything has time to work.
this point is often left out when replicating the wheel I have seen a lot of peoples efforts and I have tried a few my self but this wheel as simple as it is needs the precision of a clock to work, Bessler was also an apprentice watchmaker.
why is it when people replicate other peoples work they feel a need to change something the first time it is built we seem to find it hard to make it exactly like the original then if it works and you understand the principals then you can change it i have not seen one replication with the T pendulum yet including my self I am sure he doesn't just show it for window dressing but i think it plays a key roll and if implemented many other wheel designs could work as well.
Bessler said the T pendulum was there so it does not spin out of control he was not telling the truth it is there to slow the wheel down to the point where
the parts have time to work as well as add imputes to the turning wheel.
another point is selection of weights the scissor arrangement needs to have the weights selected carefully if you pivot it full extended at the point i indicate the smaller weight should balance with the big weight at the back. but because it will be extended to the edge of the wheel it will give it a lever advantage over the center of the wheel (Axel), as i said the principal is simple but the implementation is the trick.
And about the clues the way i see them A is the side view E and shows up a lot in his pictures, you will also find the A's he often writes as a scissor including X's he is dropping a hint.
G is showing the peg the right side is sitting on one made up of B showing the timing
Maybe it might run if you could find a way to extend the linkage using the weight of the entire wheel instead of independent weights that will end up as a counter balance to stop the rotation.
there is no question of it rotating I have not shown the peg or its position as i need a model to try it but the peg when it is at 6 o'clock and fully retracted to the center will hold it there till it passes 12 o'clock then releases it to extend to the edge of the wheel on the descending side as described by witnesses on besslers wheel, as i said the key is the PEG and the slowing PENDULUM not shown.
http://i60.tinypic.com/vsgq4p.jpg
Quote from: dom444 on November 27, 2014, 08:04:12 PM
there is no question of it rotating I have not shown the peg or its position as i need a model to try it but the peg when it is at 6 o'clock and fully retracted to the center will hold it there till it passes 12 o'clock then releases it to extend to the edge of the wheel on the descending side as described by witnesses on besslers wheel, as i said the key is the PEG and the slowing PENDULUM not shown.
http://i60.tinypic.com/vsgq4p.jpg (http://i60.tinypic.com/vsgq4p.jpg)
I did some calculations on this some time ago and found that multiple scissors also increase the leverage on the extending weight.
I was thinking that in the end it would be a wash on any gain for rotation. I hope I'm wrong about this.
Did you do any calculations yet?
At the time I was drawing up something for a simulation but quit after putting some thought into it. (maybe not enough thought!)
It's possible that the extension could offset the weight far enough to rotate the heavier weight doing the extending.
Even the single stage setup offsetting the weight further out on the wheel may provide more gain than the same weight moving the same distance but closer to the wheel center.
this is it, for sure. thx
I think the balance is very important as well as the scissor cross piece lengths Bessler seams to draw them with a longer cross pieces at the heavy weight end going to smaller at the extension end could have a bearing on it and also don't forget to factor in the weight of the extension arm itself as it is fully extended, the calculation should be made from the axle to the small weight end, calculations are not my strong point but i understand the mechanics.
I think the aim is to have enough heavy weight to extend the arm with the minimum movement of the heavy weight, and i am also having ideas about the pegs if one side of the axle is fixed can put a small rod or two at specific points to set the peg and hold the arm closed on the ascending side and another to release at the descending side
that could be where the springs come into play to do with the setting releasing mechanism on the pegs.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs14.postimg.org%2Frqlgkvjwt%2FPicture_012.jpg&hash=883242d0ad4d882588dea97c3053fe121e4d269e) (http://postimg.org/image/rqlgkvjwt/)
@ Dom444
Here is a good lesson on scissor jack balances in a couple of picture. You have better actions on the hammer toy design.
Alan
not much of a lesson you can see it is steel and just the 3 or so scissor links weigh more than the top weight let alone the end weight I think the person that designed it needs a lesson in material choices and how balance works. showing a badly executed example of anything proves nothing.
Sorry dom444:
But all materials weights were considered for the test which leaves your observation lacking in fact. The other thing to consider is, that when a machine is made it is going to have to last a long time to be useful. The point is from this test is that even though the larger weight is heavier than to be moved weight including the jacks weight by more than 4 times. It still can not lift the smaller weight at the bottom back up. People have tried the scissor jack / storks bill and have learned more what cant be done with them than what can. Despite that I still use scissor jacks in some of my builds and look for new ways to use them. So don't consider scissor jacks a waste of time for they are not. But your arrangement has been well tested except for adding the peg with it.
Alan
I have been pondering the question of the scissor jack and like i said earlier Bessler always shows it with the first crossing of the scissor larger than the presiding one, have a look at his illustration i put up beginning of the thread,
by the way the writing on his illustration says Children's game(s) in which there is something extraordinary for anyone who knows how to apply them in a different way.
the one you showed is equal dimensioned all the way along, if you even move the scissor pivot point one centimeter or so past the center point you get a lever advantage and if the proceeding one is now smaller again you get even more power by the time you reach the small end you get a very large amplified force.
how do you think you can cut heavy wire with side cutters as an example, one of my favorite sayings is the devil is in the detail.
this is a quick test on the scissor thing it does work this is not even worked out properly knocked it up in 15 min but thanks for the feedback it helps and also after making this model I made a discovery even at the 3 o'clock position it will extend out to the full when let go with quit a bit of force.
and if you look at the movement the heavy weight only moves a few inches where the small end moves 6 or 7
View My Video (http://tinypic.com/r/2q173vt/8)
Quote from: dom444 on November 28, 2014, 06:50:59 PM
this is a quick test on the scissor thing it does work this is not even worked out properly knocked it up in 15 min but thanks for the feedback it helps and also after making this model I made a discovery even at the 3 o'clock position it will extend out to the full when let go with quit a bit of force.
and if you look at the movement the heavy weight only moves a few inches where the small end moves 6 or 7
View My Video (http://tinypic.com/r/2q173vt/8)
Dom444,
Not bad for a quick build.
The question remains, does the balance change from the pivot point and which direction?
wont know that till i do the experiment but instinct tells me it will probably work if i build it properly balanced, and i need to test on one plank two oposing assemblies its the sum weight on each side from the axle that's important, i am thinking the larger weight being closer to the center axle even though it is heavy and displaced would have less gravitational influence than the end weight.
What also makes me think i am on the right track is Besslers wheel had 4LB weights on the end of the wheel not a very big weight for a 12ft wheel.
But would be consistent with this kind of arrangement.
I made a new discovery today which kind of hit me I may or may not be right APOLOGIA POETIC XLVI is referring to
MT 138 all the elements of the verse appear to be in there which is the pic i posted beginning of this post.
if so it gives a description of the movement of his wheel.
it has the flail (or peg),fresher B,anvil,the scholar i believe is the character on the right of C, the runners are there, the children with clubs D are there ,the crab is the child's toy going to and fro, plump horses are the weights, A driver drives is the characters, The buyer buys are who he is selling to,the seer sees is himself seer is enlightened one the cat is D upside down with the tail hanging down, sulfur was melted and used like a glue for wood at the time, mercury was used for tempering steel, he is referencing this picture and there is more which i need to work out and some i wont comment on, worth a look at.
Verse XLVI:
Those who are keen to ask questions should ask them of this little book.
Should anyone wish to speculate about the truth, let him just ponder on the rich pageantry of words which I now cause to shower down upon him!
For greed is an evil plant.
An anvil receives many blows.
A driver drives.
A runner runs.
The seer sees.
The buyer buys.
The rain drips down.
Snow falls.
The shotgun shoots.
The bow twangs.
A great fat herd of fat, lazy, plump horses wanders aimlessly.
The flail would rather be with the thresher than with the scholar.
Children play with heavy clubs among the broken columns.
Acrobats and shadow-boxers are as fleet and nimble as the wind.
The cunning cat slinks silently along and snatches nice juicy mice.
The dog creeps out of his kennel just as far as his chain will stretch.
He knows how to please by playing with his little toys and knick-knacks.
He wags his tail, creeps through the hoop and is rewarded with pats on his paws by the stiff fops who watch him.
A wheel appears on the scene – is it really a wheel, for it does not have the normal type of rim.
It revolves, but without other wheels inside or outside, and without weights, wind, or springs.
Seen sideways or full-face it is as resplendent as a peacock's tail.
It turns to the right and to the left; it spins around in any possible direction, whether laden or empty.
All things belong to one of the three kingdoms (animal, vegetable, matter) and -
You have the physical evidence in front of you.
Without such things as sulphur, salt and mercury all things will soon come to a standstill –
The qualities of the elements are necessary to keep things going.
Saturn, Mars and Jupiter are ready to join in any battle.
Even the things we eat do not lose their elemental influence – for it spreads itself through every limb and sinew of our bodies.
A crab crawls from side to side. It is sound for it is designed thus.
Johann Bessler, Apologia Poetica (Kassel: self published, 1716-1717), verse XLVI, as translated and reproduced in John Collins, Poetica Apologia by Johann Bessler (pseud. Orffyreus) Edited and Published by John Collins (Leamington Spar: Permo Publications, 2004), p. 295 and 296
Hi Dom444,
I will have a look at your finding. Maybe it gives us some more information.
Regarding the gravity peg you mentioned, I'm not sure why you would need it at the 6 o'clock position.
As far as I can tell the scissors should stay collapsed anyway.
What might be needed is a system that prevents the scissors from starting to collapse between 3 and 6 o'clock and stopping it starting to expand between 9 and 12 o'clock.
Maybe a quarter circle guiding rail for the heavy weight can accomplish that. The heavy weight should be some kind of wheel that can run against the rail until it is time to expand or collapse... ( 6 and 12 o'clock precisely)
Hope you understand what I'm trying to say... :-)
Regards Dutchy
Thanks dutchy i would hold of for the moment its the first wheel i showed that i think is correct but not how i placed them with this new information i have just found if i am right he is cunning on how he presents it but still a few gaps that need to be worked out you have to put your mind to the 1700 and use there terminology for the time not easy to understand how they would think, But I do think he was spring loading the weights to shoot out that's his real secret and the extra motive force, as well as from and the way the weights are arranged it is all in that picture look carefully, they would fire at the right moment.
I did some more research and i think the person on the left of C was known as a jack or knave like in playing cards. In the above passage the word should be jack fires not shotgun shoots some one didn't understand the word jack and substituted shotgun, as in this interpretation of the verse.
this is the other version:
Should anyone wish to speculate about the truth,
let him ponder the rich pageant of words
which I now cause to shower down upon him!
Greed is an evil root.
An anvil receives many blows.
A driver drives. A runner runs.
A seer sees. The buyer buys.
The rain flows. Snow falls.
The jack fires. The bow twangs;
a large herd of fat, lazy,
plump horses wanders aimlessly.
The flail wants to be with the
thresher, not with the scholar.
Children play among the pillars
with loud heavy clubs.
Acrobats and shadow-boxers
are as swift and nimble as the wind.
The cunning cat slinks quietly along
and snatches juicy mice.
The dog creeps out of his kennel
just as far as his chain will stretch.
He knows how to please by playing
with his toys and knick-knacks.
He wags his tail, creeps through the hoop,
and is rewarded with a pat on the paws
by the stiff fops who watch him.
dom444
Here is a design that I got out of "The Gentleman's Magazine" 1751 Shortly after Bessler's death and it was done by someone only known as Mr AB . Since we are dealing with scissor jacks and you have learned a bit of the dynamics of how they could be altered I figured I would show you another way. The interesting thing about Mr AB is that his last initial is B just like Bessler and you need to find out what happened to Bessler's Brother.
Alan
that is interesting even has the lettering like Bessler on the wheel, the cables are interesting because with one part of this verse that is difficult to work out is to do with the dog on the chain.
found this on this wheel
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=zEpGAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA502&dq=self+moving+wheel&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kN57VLTlJ8mC8gWo1IGADQ&ved=0CFgQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=self%20moving%20wheel&f=false
page 502 does not work even in 1751 they worked it out and the F's are actually s's
dom444
I would think that a scissor test for success would be to try to simply generate an unstable device.
Maybe start in the horizontal position and have the weight extend the scissors and cause the extended end to drop.
Once that occurs, the weight could pull on one leg of the scissors and cause it to retract only to repeat the process.
It may be possible to keep the activating weight nearly on the scissor pivot with some additional linkage.
It would only need to travel a small arc. If this scissors device could be made to be unstable and oscillate then that itself would be proof of operation.
i will tell you where i am at right now i need to make some models to test some configurations as time permits which i am hopeful of, i think i am on the right track but wont know for a while, but i can tell you i think he was using springs and i know why and i know how.
and i am convinced even more as i research that my theory is correct, and that his wheel is a lot simpler than many think and i think i understand bessler better now.
Here is an up date for ya I swear I have never read so much sh**t about Bessler as what i have come across on some sites and no wonder no one has cracked it in 300 years, from sacred geometry to all sorts of other crap like he was moving it with his mind, I feel for the man everyone has hijacked his invention for there own cause, I know what he was going through.
one site has 100 pages of so much rubbish i think you would forget your own name after reading it, here is a heads up for ya he had 5 sets of opposing mechanism 10 weights on the perimeter of the wheel not 8 there where 10 pegs each mechanism had 2 springs, and when you look at it side on it did look like a peacocks tail, and they where set up in layers one on top of the other, this much i know to be true believe it if you like or not, also forget looking at his drawings of perpetual motion machines they will just confuse you as he intended, he hated scientists and that was to bait them he hid it where you wouldn't look, and no i don't have the whole thing but am a fair way there, there are subtleties to the mechanism you can only work out by experimenting.
Hi Dom,
Would be nice if you could supply some links to where the correct clues/information can be found...
I would like to read it aswell.
Thanks!
Dutchy
what i have found dutchy is that a lot of the sites want to make them selves to be the authority or the last word on Bessler they are the experts or so they think but there is a lot of disinformation and subtle omissions or errors that lead you astray, earlier in this thread i said that I thought it was jack fires and not shotgun shoots that is a big difference which does not seam like much but puts things in a different context and changes how you view the text.
http://www.besslerwheel.com/writings/apologia.html
I have gone through many sites and compared many writings with some things i have found, and it is a bit like a detective story the pieces confirm each other
and you get a real picture of what was going on and you get a more complete picture.
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/ecco/004873234.0001.000/1:4?rgn=div1;view=fulltext
this is not so much useful to work out the wheel but gives you a feel for the negative oppressive environment Bessler was going through which explain his state of mind his hatred of the scientific community and why he behaved the way he did.
http://orffyre.tripod.com/id41.html DIALOGUES AT THE CASTLE OF WEISSENSTEIN
there he describes the wheel so a child can understand most people dismiss it as ramblings of a mad man funny that when you have a bit of inside information it makes sens, and Bessler had a habit of calling the parts children broken pillars etc shows he formed a relationship with his machine as well as being cryptic not to expose it, after all the years of working on it.
Quote from: AB Hammer on November 30, 2014, 05:38:26 PM
dom444
Here is a design that I got out of "The Gentleman's Magazine" 1751 Shortly after Bessler's death and it was done by someone only known as Mr AB . Since we are dealing with scissor jacks and you have learned a bit of the dynamics of how they could be altered I figured I would show you another way. The interesting thing about Mr AB is that his last initial is B just like Bessler and you need to find out what happened to Bessler's Brother.
Alan
The problem with the attached drawing is the CG of the mass, What I see is bottom heavy,
Just like many other ideas I have tried. And I think Alan's idea is the CG of the mass is bottom
heavy. This could be easily tested with a one foot ruler with holes in it to shift the length
and weight. When I look for a working wheel it must have most of the mast to the right or the left of the axle. That can be done with a horizontal slot but the stopper comes when it has to be reset back where it was to the normal CG of the mass.
But I still believe in the Bessler wheel.
As some of you know I have a permanent magnet addiction and I have OU rom permanent magnets but not yet enough OU to make it self reciprocate.
Norman
well from what i know about bessler your on the money with that one Norman as a matter of fact it never cuts through the Axel at any point the mechanism's and weights form a elliptical path around the axle as they move around it, and from what i can see the rim weights begin to lift at about
5 o'clock stay in that position held by the peg till reaches between 1 and 2 o'clock then the peg drops off, but here is the trick it could not happen if the springs did not play there part friction and centripetal force would not allow the peg to disengage, the rear counter weights throw it forward to the rim of the wheel with a thud which i expect is the imputes it picks up to continue rotating and gravity takes over.
Actually as i write this it just occurs to me i know where the extra force comes now, gravity creates an event going down the mechanism converts it to a equal and o posit right angle force to the wheel adding to the rotation don't know if i explained it well but my head can visualize it.
But i still think that with out the pendulum to govern the speed Bessler's wheel would lock up and not keep going time plays an important roll when you are converting gravity.
Domenic
Norman
Even though the old design I posted does not work as is. One may see way it may be able to work. Thus there is something to learn from it. The main reason for posting, is to show different dynamics of how scissor jacks can be used. I use scissor jacks in some of what I design and others I use slides, swings and shifts. I will be showing some of them soon. As for Bessler I am also a believer in his success and pay attention to what he wrote. There is a lot to consider as well. Will we ever build Bessler's wheel or are we finding ways to make a runner from our belief in Bessler's work. There will be no way to say that it would be Bessler's wheel but we will be able to say a Bessler like wheel for we do not have the exact design to go by or we would of had it hundreds of years ago. But we can think that this might be what Bessler saw or did.
Alan
Quote from: dom444 on December 02, 2014, 10:23:43 PM
well from what i know about bessler your on the money with that one Norman as a matter of fact it never cuts through the Axel at any point the mechanism's and weights form a elliptical path around the axle as they move around it, and from what i can see the rim weights begin to lift at about
5 o'clock stay in that position held by the peg till reaches between 1 and 2 o'clock then the peg drops off, but here is the trick it could not happen if the springs did not play there part friction and centripetal force would not allow the peg to disengage, the rear counter weights throw it forward to the rim of the wheel with a thud which i expect is the imputes it picks up to continue rotating and gravity takes over.
Actually as i write this it just occurs to me i know where the extra force comes now, gravity creates an event going down the mechanism converts it to a equal and o posit right angle force to the wheel adding to the rotation don't know if i explained it well but my head can visualize it.
But i still think that with out the pendulum to govern the speed Bessler's wheel would lock up and not keep going time plays an important roll when you are converting gravity.
Domenic
Thanks for the links. I have read it some time ago but it helps to refresh. As for the peacok our solar system looks also as peacok from front or side view. He kept repeating parallels between interstellar (have you seen the movie?) pertpetual motion and his machine. Only that planets stay on their orbit because of their speed and sun gravity. And there is no universal gravity keep it all going. I still wonder how weights moving on eliptical paths around axis can produce something usefull. We may never know, but who knows, maybe ... As for Bessler I hope God showed great mercifulness at his judgment day for such a great git wasted, if true of course.
Marcel
thanks guys all i can say is i found something that gives me more of a clue what was under that canvas than most , you might believe this or you might not that's up to you, frow me on the pile with the other 1000's that thought they had the answer, but every passage i read referring to him only confirm what i know, I haven't found anything that doesn't fit.
that doesn't mean i have all the answers or that it will even work, he was a very cryptic man with something to hide, as we all know if it pans out i will eventually share it all but it is like a story unfolding and some things i have to return to time and again to finally understand it.
But i will stick by what i said that they are not all giving accurate information on Bessler some is there to mislead you, eg:
Apologia Poetica these these lines are Hardley ever shown
Poltergeists wander freely through locked doors.
But softly! - speak softly of all these marvels,
lest the enemy grows wise! He will drench me with his spittle
so that I will lose my temper and in a sudden fit,
cast aside the mantle that conceals my wheel.
But he shall be thwarted in his desires.
there are omissions changed facts all sorts of things and so many people steering people in the wrong directions to waist there times.
My aim is to replicate his work not to reinvent it or make it out to be my own work, so i am searching with a fine tooth comb through everything and anything i can find on him and it is not easy with so much incomplete and inaccurate information around.
I have just found this on http://orffyre.tripod.com/id41.html seems i am not the only one that thinks this way.
In Orffyreus' times, his enemies as well as many others, regarded the whole story as a gigantic fraud. But, in present time also, there is no end to disbelievers and their strange doubts. Vague and false evaluations of Orffyreus' remarkable work still go on without shame. There are plots and attempts to discredit the inventor.
We have large number of books, websites, and articles that either undermine great discovery of Orffyreus or carry miserable misinterpretations of his invention. Web is also littered with many articles about the same. For paucity of space and time, it would not possible to go into details and quote every work that is in grave error. To show how Orffyreus devotees have indulged in grotesque interpretation of his wheel and everything he did in his lifetime, here, I will only select and comment on the works of few the authors namely, Ord-Hume, J. Collins, Alden E. Park. Alfred Evert, and Jain Rutowsky.
dom444
Yes there are a lot of people who think Bessler was a fraud. But!! when one of us display a gravity only powered wheel it will help clear Bessler's name as well.
Alan
I would be a bit careful about how it is reveled if we do find it there is a lot more at stake than most think and there is a lot more power political influence and danger as well as money involved in showing it than most would know, if it works
there will be an avalanche of detractors and people wanting to hide it at the highest level.
for gods sake don't go down the patent office
bessler's first line of his Apologia Poetica
"Greed is an evil root." and have it taken from us again read this http://panacea-bocaf.org/patentoffice.htm
And on a further note if it was proven to work mainstream science will reclassify what perpetual motion means yet again, to disqualify any machine that would work, to keep the scientific community's reputation intact.
my view on perpetual motion and what it means is simply this, its the motion that's perpetual not the device doing it, the dives can wear out over time but the minute you you build the same movement in the same way it still works the same so the motion is perpetual.
this is my theory on Bessler's wheel
A quick sketch to show my idea how to achieve dom444 theory using spur gears. Also, switching sides of the eccentric weight in order to unbalance the wheel is made horizontally, so a less effort is needed to move it from left to right.
That is on the right track only thing is it has to be done in two opposing assembly's that forces the top to be put out balance in relation to the other, from what i can understand of Bessler it is almost a catapulting action when it hits the top, but i don't think Besslers wheel is by any means the only way to achieve this, if we can get one to work right, it can be improved on for sure.
Quote from: dom444 on December 04, 2014, 08:06:06 PM
I would be a bit careful about how it is reveled if we do find it there is a lot more at stake than most think and there is a lot more power political influence and danger as well as money involved in showing it than most would know, if it works
there will be an avalanche of detractors and people wanting to hide it at the highest level.
for gods sake don't go down the patent office
bessler's first line of his Apologia Poetica
"Greed is an evil root." and have it taken from us again read this http://panacea-bocaf.org/patentoffice.htm
And on a further note if it was proven to work mainstream science will reclassify what perpetual motion means yet again, to disqualify any machine that would work, to keep the scientific community's reputation intact.
my view on perpetual motion and what it means is simply this, its the motion that's perpetual not the device doing it, the dives can wear out over time but the minute you you build the same movement in the same way it still works the same so the motion is perpetual.
Thank you, dom, for such a greatly informative post.
The link provided some bits of important information that I had not been aware of until now.
respectfully
CANGAS 105
I wonder if something along this line would work do you think ;D
if someone likes it would be good to get a proper model of this movement plotted going around the wheel with the center on the inside leg where my hand was not the outside it must be on the outside of the axle at all times i don't have time for computer models can build it in less time.
Domenic
View My Video (http://tinypic.com/m/im5rep/2)
Dominic, make a couple drawings in the sequence of positions and then step back to see where the CG of the mass is and you'll probably see its above the axle....I'll do that later today myself.
Norman
thanks Norman but i know that already a cake doesn't have one ingredient i am going somewhere with this it is not the whole thing by any means there is more to it... ;)
as i said before i don't have the whole thing but i have drawn it out on paper and looks good promising but lots to be worked out as simple as it is like the optimum counter weights to lift the end weight for example Bessler calls them very heavy weights, also the length of the extending rod and the end weight. for the moment i just want about 6 or 7 weight positions on the perimeter to plot the travel i know how it goes myself.
Domenic
P.S any way don't you want to meet Besslers little children...lol
in regards to my theory picture i put up.... seems some one might agree with me
Isaac Newton views on perpetual motion
Interestingly, Sir Isaac Newton, the man who quantified the laws of motion, did not dismiss the possibility of this problem being solved. He thought it might be possible in one of two ways; that rays of gravity might be stopped by either reflection or refraction; that gravity could potentially become a visible and viable force if broken open; diverted or deflected from its usual path.
another find tells me i am on the right track don't you think and if about now you can't see it something wrong.
question what is one hand on and the other hand holding
now we just sit back and watch how many people try to own this information on other sites as if they discovered it ;) When people say it died with him they where wrong he left it for someone who thinks like me to find that's all.
Domenic
dom444
I'm not sure I see a viable solution to a working wheel.
Is it possible the lifting weight raises a weight on the outer edge then rolls off to the next mechanism and lifts another weight.
If each mechanism has it's own lifting weight then nothing changes since it's simply a lever and suffers the same weight/distance = no gain syndrome.
back again I have been away last few days, i think i will hold off speculating on the mechanism for a bit i have started a test setup of one mechanism as i believe he did it, but there is a few tweaks and areas that need attention, especially the counter weights but i can say as it stands with out the weights it turns nicely the bottom weight retracts the top weight snaps out, and with out the peg or its placement worked out yet, hard to say how it will go.
it is very simple in construction but the weights have to be right and there is a spring involved connected to the weights.
Quote from: dom444 on December 06, 2014, 12:28:57 AM
another find tells me i am on the right track don't you think and if about now you can't see it something wrong.
question what is one hand on and the other hand holding ?
Bill ("ovyyus") has his own Bessler site http://www.orffyre.com/mt.html that you have reproduced the picture from - this is Bill's own artistic rendition & is recent (it is for sale as a poster etc).
Bessler has his hand resting on pages from "Maschinen Tractate", a technical manuscript of PM designs never published by Bessler but produced by John Collins - his other hand is holding pages of etchings of Besslers wheels from Bessler's "Das Triuamphirende" also republished by John Collins.
I actually found that on a German site i had to translate, but still does not change the bulk of what i found.
But it is a warning to future generations in searching for the truth, it is going to get so much harder as more people come up with reinterpretations of the truth via images re written texts and omissions as well as opinions presented as facts.
It is a bit like you tube now it has been poisoned by people using computer generated graphics to produce all sorts of things so you no longer know what is true or not.
Quote from: dom444 on December 06, 2014, 12:33:54 AM
now we just sit back and watch how many people try to own this information on other sites as if they discovered it ;) When people say it died with him they where wrong he left it for someone who thinks like me to find that's all.
Domenic
Domenic
That is an interesting assumption of claim. Most of what you have written and shown is well known with those who build and studied Bessler. There are still factors that the build will tell you which will not allow a running wheel. The problems is in your trade offs with greater weights for longer lengths. Now I am not saying that trade offs are not possible, just not probable.
If you study other sights forums that talk about Bessler. You will see many ideas have already been tried. Just remember it has been 300+ years since Bessler and thousands before that.
Alan
I understand the trade offs you speak of and that makes sens in a semi static system of fixed weights moving around a wheel, one against the other, but people seam to forget or overlook that lowly peg, we all know of but no one figures in to the mechanism, Bessler himself never spoke of it but he did show it in the toy diagram if you know how to read it, Count Karl did see it with his own eyes and spoke of it.
that peg and where it is placed controls and times the main motive force which causes the wheel to continue spinning, but no most people pretend it did not exist or was some unnecessary extra.
I have seen many peoples ideas on Besslers wheel but have not seen anything that times an event at the right place on the wheel to change the dynamics of the weight displacements.
Domenic
A member known as Circle on this forum describes peg use and if you sign in at Bessler's Wheel and do a search for pegs you will find several more and you can also look at the albums and you will find pictures. But it is true that most don't consider pegs much on most build designs. I will be building Circle's wheel when life allows me the time from survival and my own scheduled builds.
The uses of pegs in my book are used for effects of actions and timing units. It seems you are mainly using them for Timing. I will leave effects out of this string to keep in direction of your timing units.
Alan
Alan
The reason i say timing is because the event that causes the wheel to continue spinning takes place at between 1&3 o'clock from what i can understand
by the clues, and i believe gravity is what allows the peg to release the weights and do what it does , and in the process causes the weights to release on the descending side which coincides with what observers have heard.
Domenic
Domenic
Shifts between 1 & 3 o'clock positions are good positions of shift and would require reset positions to between 5 & 8 o'clock for best results. We tend to look at wheels in the stagnant positions to see what may happen. We also have to keep in mind that in a wheel at 60rpm give only 1 second for all shifts to take place and only 2 seconds for a 30rpm wheel. Not to mention CF effects which tends to keep things at the edge of a wheel. Then we consider the angular momentum and increased effects of increased weight effect of a pendulum at 6 o'clock. All factors take place and will create heat due to friction.
So for each action you only have X amount of time and on the descending side any falling weight will tend to run out of time for the speed of the fall, thus the problem with pegs that require gravity to make them shift. So if you are using the pegs for timing? Your best bet for actions are on the ascending side of the wheel for you have the gravity and the speed of the wheel to make for a more positive and effective shift.
I do have a lot of experience of wheel effect. http://youtu.be/Ny7O7bAn2uU
Alan
Very nice work Alan you have a very good workshop by the looks of it, nothing you have said i will disagree with as a matter of fact earlier in this post i
speak of the pendulum speed regulator being essential for the operation of this type of wheel, as well as to much speed tends to lock up everything with centripetal force and friction.
I have started the build for this wheel to test it i have 90% of it worked out and with this system the way my minds eye sees it and i have tested, the weights due to the mechanism will be retracting up at about 5 o'clock, the peg will engage holding the weights away from the rim all the way up the ascending side till hits between 1 & 3 then release the weight with a bit of kick
to follow the perimeter the rest of the way down, this system is based on the clues i have found.
the weights are a problem for me at the moment, have to find or machine suitable ones and they will be suspended by flat leaf springs in the center area of the wheel and provide the counter weight for the end weights, or as Bessler describes them very heavy weights.
if you watch this mechanism with its weights they have a very unusual action your so called swing machine comes close to it, and they look like little children playing in tall broken columns, as bessler describes, that's what makes me think i am on the right track it all fits.