This is a repost from Overunityresearch forum By Physics Prof
Quote
Let's get Slider (aka Mark Vaughan) a nice 4-channel DSO with math functions! (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2795.msg46374#msg46374)
Slider, aka Mark Vaughan, has been BUILDING and inventing devices for years. A strong open-source proponent, he presents his results on the forums and in videos. No salary, just a service to this community.
Chet Kremens and I feel its time we help him out just a bit with some test equipment -- here goes. Please consider a donation today -- I will chip in $50. Who will join us?
See:
http://www.youcaring.com/project-fundraiser/let-s-get-mark-vaughan-slider-a-fine-4ch-dso-w-v-t-i-t-/309899 (http://www.youcaring.com/project-fundraiser/let-s-get-mark-vaughan-slider-a-fine-4ch-dso-w-v-t-i-t-/309899)
QUOTE
For a mere $399, we can buy our friend/researcher a nice Rigol DS1054Z 50 MHz Digital Oscilloscope with 4 channels plus 12 Mpt memory, 1 GS/s sampling - with Math Functions!
By measuring voltage and current in separate channels, he will be able to multiply to get the power waveforms =
P(t) = V(t)*I(t) . Analyzing power in and power out is critical in this alternative-energy research.
Mark is well known for his alt-energy projects and videos and for frequent contributions on overunityresearch.com, overunity.com and EnergeticForum.com .
Here's a brief message from Mark:
Quote
""Hi, my name is Mark, you probably know me as Slider2732 around the web and especially on YouTube.
The Playlist called 'Sliders Ideas' forms a good introduction to the low energy project builds that have formed an intense research study over the past 5 years -https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL-VrIx_FsZCIPf_vxqKww6g5tAo7FRGmI
My intentions, are to further concepts that bring forward harvested energy and ultra low power usage devices for use in practical ways.
One thing you may have wondered about within those projects and have never seen are scope shots !
There's a good reason for that and why my good friends Steve and Chet have set up this funding challenge.
With your help and perhaps to answer your own future questions or curiosities about the waveforms of devices shown on YouTube, this fundraiser is for a Rigol DS1054Z Digital Oscilloscope.
http://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/DS1054Z/Digital-Oscilloscopes/ (http://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/DS1054Z/Digital-Oscilloscopes/)
It is also my intention, that if funding surpasses the sum needed, Steve and Chet can place that money toward equipment needed by other researchers.
Thank you for your support in advance, for considering a donation toward this goal"
Note that there is a charge of about 3% for credit-card use, for donations direct to this site. (This is common for credit cards, they charge a fee.) If you use check or PayPal (specify "gift"), then there is no charge. Contributions by check pls to: Steven E. Jones, 201 E. Clay St., Albany, MO 64402; OR PayPal to email Profsjones@gmail.com
100% of such "off-line" donations will be recorded at the YouCaring site so you can look and be assured that your donation "made it" to the intended goal of getting the 4ch DSO for our colleague Mark.
-------------------------------
Let's get Slider (aka Mark Vaughan) a nice 4-channel DSO with math functions!
Unimpressive research that was not of his own making.
He does not go deep enough in anything for me to say its worth a dollar.
I will open a donation page for myself that you can donate to.
10,000$ should do the trick.
And that oscilloscope should go to me, mine is old.
Sir
If you were a nicer man we would help you raise funds for your opensource
work...
well Honestly even if you were the kind of man that would belittle another mans
work without even knowing the history or extent of that work,..Even if you were
_THAT_ kind of man I would still help you if it would help to make this world
a better place.
and THAT is the truth.
respectfully
Chet
Mark has added a comment here [uses for this scope]
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2795.msg46393;topicseen#msg46393
Slider
Quote
I agree with the question of what would it be used for right away.
Short term specific research with the scope would be directed to energy harvesting. RF sources, such as radio, house mains, WiFi and Smartmeter emissions that permeate the house, need to be matched with receiving circuits. There is a need to know what is happening where, how circuit changes impact results, to demonstrate with provable data.
I know right now that a Dickson multiplier is not as effective for CFL bulb emissions collections as the circuit popularised by Inventor3 on YouTube..but why ? what is it doing ? how can it be improved ? what is happening to the 60Hz feed ? is there only 60Hz within the input to the circuit ?
One big drive is to run small circuits that remove electrosmog (now a fave term - thanks TK). Charge batteries with it, remove the need for batteries in TV remotes, run wall clocks, supply tick-over current to microcontrollers for home security sensors and for other practical uses.
Scope shots themselves go a long way to proving out anything demonstrated, any device standing a much better chance of being replicated and then become widely useful to others.
Included near term research includes the furtherment of low input wireless electricity systems for energy transfer within the home. The 'Centurion' tank circuit wireless energy system will run from an upside down solar garden light solar cell on the workbench. But what is the system doing ? what and where are the peak and minimum energies ?, what does the waveform look like ?
Also, if The Internet of Things (IoT) is to come about as a positive, then in my opinion, it has to be as widely Open Sourced as possible. Our own systems and our own research can deliver trusted integrations and solutions.
On the subject of Crystal batteries, they have been a strong interest for a few years. Anyone interested could try a great introduction rechargeable cell capable of 70mA when solar charged, in the form of C/Pb. A washed Carbon electrode from a depleted 'D' 1.5V battery, slice of lead from a junk car battery (negative plate) or car wheel weight, electrolyte is rain water and Alum. Output is always 0.8V at several hundred uA even after a year of non charging and it will run an LED blocking oscillator 24/7, for example. Mine is a couple of years old now, always in use to the point of forgetting about it and shows no degradation of either electrode...there's no sacrificial metal on the positive !
You could say, the scope of my own research would be greatly expanded Smiley
end quote
As long as you admit that my work is Genius and that I am a Genius, we will work along the same paths.
Its pleasing to me, to be venerated and beloved by non-Genius.
ArmCortex
Sir
I absolutely consider you a Legend in your own Mind,and have _always_
admired your humility...
I also happen to like you...[of course you expect no less....]
Chet
Quote from: ramset on February 20, 2015, 01:13:46 PM
Mark has added a comment here [uses for this scope]
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2795.msg46393;topicseen#msg46393
Slider
Quote
I agree with the question of what would it be used for right away.
Short term specific research with the scope would be directed to energy harvesting. RF sources, such as radio, house mains, WiFi and Smartmeter emissions that permeate the house, need to be matched with receiving circuits. There is a need to know what is happening where, how circuit changes impact results, to demonstrate with provable data.
I know right now that a Dickson multiplier is not as effective for CFL bulb emissions collections as the circuit popularised by Inventor3 on YouTube..but why ? what is it doing ? how can it be improved ? what is happening to the 60Hz feed ? is there only 60Hz within the input to the circuit ?
One big drive is to run small circuits that remove electrosmog (now a fave term - thanks TK). Charge batteries with it, remove the need for batteries in TV remotes, run wall clocks, supply tick-over current to microcontrollers for home security sensors and for other practical uses.
Scope shots themselves go a long way to proving out anything demonstrated, any device standing a much better chance of being replicated and then become widely useful to others.
Included near term research includes the furtherment of low input wireless electricity systems for energy transfer within the home. The 'Centurion' tank circuit wireless energy system will run from an upside down solar garden light solar cell on the workbench. But what is the system doing ? what and where are the peak and minimum energies ?, what does the waveform look like ?
Also, if The Internet of Things (IoT) is to come about as a positive, then in my opinion, it has to be as widely Open Sourced as possible. Our own systems and our own research can deliver trusted integrations and solutions.
On the subject of Crystal batteries, they have been a strong interest for a few years. Anyone interested could try a great introduction rechargeable cell capable of 70mA when solar charged, in the form of C/Pb. A washed Carbon electrode from a depleted 'D' 1.5V battery, slice of lead from a junk car battery (negative plate) or car wheel weight, electrolyte is rain water and Alum. Output is always 0.8V at several hundred uA even after a year of non charging and it will run an LED blocking oscillator 24/7, for example. Mine is a couple of years old now, always in use to the point of forgetting about it and shows no degradation of either electrode...there's no sacrificial metal on the positive !
You could say, the scope of my own research would be greatly expanded Smiley
end quote
A scope is a nice bit of kit to have. But you aren't going to be looking at 2.4GHz WiFi radiation with a 50MHz scope.
Mark E
What methods or tools would you use to
search thru the background Noise for useful
Energy?
Thx
Chet
I'll butt in here and answer: You need a modern dedicated high-frequency-capable Spectrum Analyzer if you are going to be looking in microwave/radar type frequency bands for sources of power. This equipment is not cheap.
http://www.amazon.com/Tektronix-RSA3408A-Real-Time-Spectrum-Analyzer/dp/B00O56Z3Q6
Tinsel
I have to say Mark has an uncanny ability to harvest from almost any source
he investigates.. He also seems to have found something very special with
frequency and low power LED lighting [2-3 watts] to grow plants in dark rooms
[on his You tube].that work is an extension of other research.
There are those of us who feel the need to get the right tools in the right hands.
As you know we have been working privately towards this end for several years
and have had wonderful results ,mostly in growing the assets we need to
investigate more serious claims, assets being persons and relationships
with skilled persons of like mind.
I have been absolutely amazed with this group and their potential..
we are at the point now where some really effective work can be done
on some truly promising techs.[forthcoming in VERY near future]
It is our intention to grow this grass routes Model to its utmost potential.
we can get more done with less investment than almost any "financed"
group I can imagine, that being said we will work within our skills and resources.
which at this point seem only limited to the imagination...
Tinsel, we consider you a huge asset to this work and I personally feel privileged
to have an opportunity to help you and people like you.
and I know there are plenty here that feel the same way.
and of course all is open source .
Quote from: ramset on February 20, 2015, 05:48:41 PM
Mark E
What methods or tools would you use to
search thru the background Noise for useful
Energy?
Thx
Chet
An antenna or set of antennas, a table of antenna factors, and a spectrum analyzer.
Quote from: TinselKoala on February 20, 2015, 06:28:57 PM
I'll butt in here and answer: You need a modern dedicated high-frequency-capable Spectrum Analyzer if you are going to be looking in microwave/radar type frequency bands for sources of power. This equipment is not cheap.
http://www.amazon.com/Tektronix-RSA3408A-Real-Time-Spectrum-Analyzer/dp/B00O56Z3Q6
There are cheaper options. A Signal Hound is about $1000. My concern is that someone who doesn't know what kind of equipment they need to go look for some phenomenon are unlikely to make good use of the right equipment if that equipment happened to land on their door step.
Quote from: ramset on February 20, 2015, 08:25:50 PM
Tinsel
I have to say Mark has an uncanny ability to harvest from almost any source
he investigates.. He also seems to have found something very special with
frequency and low power LED lighting [2-3 watts] to grow plants in dark rooms
[on his You tube].that work is an extension of other research.
There are those of us who feel the need to get the right tools in the right hands.
As you know we have been working privately towards this end for several years
and have had wonderful results ,mostly in growing the assets we need to
investigate more serious claims, assets being persons and relationships
with skilled persons of like mind.
I have been absolutely amazed with this group and their potential..
we are at the point now where some really effective work can be done
on some truly promising techs.[forthcoming in VERY near future]
It is our intention to grow this grass routes Model to its utmost potential.
we can get more done with less investment than almost any "financed"
group I can imagine, that being said we will work within our skills and resources.
which at this point seem only limited to the imagination...
Tinsel, we consider you a huge asset to this work and I personally feel privileged
to have an opportunity to help you and people like you.
and I know there are plenty here that feel the same way.
and of course all is open source .
My caution is on how often you go to the well. About three years ago SA seemed to think he could go to the well as often as he liked. After his trip to Geneva, he found the well suffered a big drought. The lesson there is that any well is finite. Use your well wisely. What you might want to think about doing is getting some equipment that you loan out rather than trying to raise money to permanently gift gear.
On the subject of electro-smog harvesting, I would look for help from someone who actually knows RF electronics and not a hobbyist. The amount of power that can be harvested is first limited by the RF power density and secondly by the efficiency of the receiving antenna. The third limiting factor will be the efficiency of the harvesting circuit at the power and voltage levels developed by the antenna(s) in the local field.
Mark E
Please don't assume so much ,the what when where why's and hows
of the equipment and its use.
Mark V has been doing work with us for almost 5 years [maybe longer?]
Nor should you assume Much about the skills being brought to bear on
these projects, its not a one man Band.
Regarding Equipment ,you are absolutely correct ,not every experimenter needs unlimited inventory ,spreading resources around is part of OUR plan, also we are investigating starting a Non Profit group which can access equipment Donations from university and industry or private parties ,you see we have no salaries or expenses beyond our Time and actual costs to experiment,we really don't need a well .
we pride ourselves in doing more with less and quite honestly we do have some very gifted minds with much experience at doing just _ that_.
No greedy fellows or time to waste here.
Who Is SA and where was his well ?
also
do you have inventory that you could loan to experimenters ?
this is a path we will use to tool up certain upcoming projects
respectfully
Chet
I'm in for 50.
Thanks, Jim!
Wow! the donations stand now at $375, out of $399 needed to purchase the 4-channel scope for Slider! (All contributed in about 13 hours!)
@all: There is still a small window of opportunity to contribute, if YOU wish to do so.
Nice! a donor who wishes to remain Anonymous donates $50 for Slider's scope!
Over the top - as donations reach $425, exceeding the goal actually.
Its still Friday here, so goal reached in one day, in about 14 hours.
Thanks, everyone!
Shows what we can do as a community of friends and fellow researchers!
Quote from: ramset on February 20, 2015, 10:12:32 PM
Mark E
Please don't assume so much ,the what when where why's and hows
of the equipment and its use.
Mark V has been doing work with us for almost 5 years [maybe longer?]
Nor should you assume Much about the skills being brought to bear on
these projects, its not a one man Band.
Regarding Equipment ,you are absolutely correct ,not every experimenter needs unlimited inventory ,spreading resources around is part of OUR plan, also we are investigating starting a Non Profit group which can access equipment Donations from university and industry or private parties ,you see we have no salaries or expenses beyond our Time and actual costs to experiment,we really don't need a well .
we pride ourselves in doing more with less and quite honestly we do have some very gifted minds with much experience at doing just _ that_.
No greedy fellows or time to waste here.
Who Is SA and where was his well ?
also
do you have inventory that you could loan to experimenters ?
this is a path we will use to tool up certain upcoming projects
respectfully
Chet
There is no assumption. There is direct observation and a resulting caution offered that you are free to do with as you see fit.
SA is Sterling Allan. In 2012 and early 2013 he sought money for his trips and causes with increasing frequency. He peaked out when he sought funding to go see what was supposed to be a definitive week long demonstration by Yildiz of his magic magnet only motor. The trip was a fiasco, Sterling took off to go see another inventor over the border in France and shortly after that Sterling's ability to raise donations plummeted.
If there is one thing that you should get a hold of it is a power analyzer that is in good condition. I do not have one that I can lend you.
Mark E
Odd you would Compare what you see here to "SA's"
Model
very Odd indeed.
Actually i Perceive this model as quite unique and am
very proud of these men and what they are trying to do
as well as the standards which they hold themselves to.
Actually the opposite of the "SA" model ,Here it will be
investigation prior to claims.
Quote from: ramset on February 21, 2015, 06:34:35 AM
Mark E
Odd you would Compare what you see here to "SA's"
Model
very Odd indeed.
I don't see why you find it odd. There are generous folks out there. The lesson from SA's example is that the well is finite.
Quote
Actually i Perceive this model as quite unique and am
very proud of these men and what they are trying to do
as well as the standards which they hold themselves to.
That is all fine and well.
Quote
Actually the opposite of the "SA" model ,Here it will be
investigation prior to claims.
That's a big improvement over the believe first, ask relevant questions never model employed by SA. (I still bang my head everytime I think of his promotion of an empty rusting box as a working free energy machine.) It doesn't change the fact that there is only so much water in the well. You do yourself service if you draw your water judiciously.
Mark E
Watching these men work and toil day in and day out
for the last five years carrying water for this community
Plus digging into their own pockets and financing work for all to
benefit from... as well as that all so precious commodity _Time_ .
I have nothing but respect and gratitude for them and worry
not the least about their Judgement or this new direction ,where
others have the opportunity to carry some water too...in whatever way they can.
Your comparing this effort to the work of Sterling Allen or even mentioning
trips about black boxes and head banging leaves me with the feeling I have
done a poor job describing the Goals here.
a new thread will be started in the next few days to define this, perhaps
a better spokesperson will help with that .
Thx
Chet
PS
Once again Thanks to all who helped and also to those who wish they could.
there are some wonderful experiments and techs on their way here.
Quote from: MarkEIf there is one thing that you should get a hold of it is a power analyzer that is in good condition. I do not have one that I can lend you.
Here's one for Wesley:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Magtrol-model-4612B-POWER-ANALYZER-/301021500486?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4616479446 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Magtrol-model-4612B-POWER-ANALYZER-/301021500486?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4616479446)
:o
Even on EBay, modern wideband power analyzers are very costly. But even basic ones should be able to handle most of the devices we see demonstrated here, like the recent one from Turkey, the "Turxator" that fools its inline Wattmeter into displaying "zero watts" drawn from the big honking power supply. ???
This one's cute:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Valhalla-Scientific-Model-2100-Digital-Power-Analyzer-/151431050896 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Valhalla-Scientific-Model-2100-Digital-Power-Analyzer-/151431050896)
But for serious players, you'd need to spend a few dollars more:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Valhalla-Scientific-2330A-Programmable-Digital-Power-Analyzer-w-GPIB-TESTED-/271497296910 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Valhalla-Scientific-2330A-Programmable-Digital-Power-Analyzer-w-GPIB-TESTED-/271497296910)
Or...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yokogawa-WT3000-Precision-Power-Analyzer-Motor-Ver-Full-opt-/151447765258 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yokogawa-WT3000-Precision-Power-Analyzer-Motor-Ver-Full-opt-/151447765258)
:-\
A good quality power analyzer, particularly one that can handle high crest factors is a fairly necessary item for evaluating claims of electrical "energy amplification".
Quote from: ramset on February 21, 2015, 09:46:03 AM
Mark E
Watching these men work and toil day in and day out
for the last five years carrying water for this community
Plus digging into their own pockets and financing work for all to
benefit from... as well as that all so precious commodity _Time_ .
I have nothing but respect and gratitude for them and worry
not the least about their Judgement or this new direction ,where
others have the opportunity to carry some water too...in whatever way they can.
Your comparing this effort to the work of Sterling Allen or even mentioning
trips about black boxes and head banging leaves me with the feeling I have
done a poor job describing the Goals here.
a new thread will be started in the next few days to define this, perhaps
a better spokesperson will help with that .
Thx
Chet
PS
Once again Thanks to all who helped and also to those who wish they could.
there are some wonderful experiments and techs on their way here.
I have tried to convey a very simple message to you several times now: Charity is a finite resource. Use it wisely.
If I were considering equipping someone who might casually chase an unusual idea, I think that I would be inclined to purchase the gear, and loan it rather than gift it. That way if the equipment does not see good use, I would at least have the theoretical option of redeploying it some place else.
I'd be inclined to second that motion. For something like a power analyzer or spectrum analyzer especially, that is rarely used but expensive to own, it makes good sense to have them held "in common" and loaned out when needed by individual researchers. I mean, why spend thousands of dollars on something that takes ten minutes to connect, another ten minutes to take some readings.... heck, you'll spend more time warming it up than actually using it, in our testing scenarios.
I can borrow an older Clarke-Hess 2330 power analyzer pretty much whenever I really need to. It's kind of a hassle, involving a couple days of travel to fetch and return it, but I have done it for certain projects.
The scope is another matter though. I don't think a day goes by that I don't turn on a scope or two to tinker about with something. I even use my old Tek RM503 as a room heater when it's cold outside. And for preliminary power testing and spectrum snooping the DSO with math including fft is a valuable tool.
Mark E
Quote
I have tried to convey a very simple message to you several times now: Charity is a finite resource. Use it wisely.
End Quote
----------------------------
@ Mark E
Charity is a Big word ,implies an association with the Needy ,wanting, unable to survive unassisted etc etc
In This case I feel you are using this word as a Dig, you don't approve.
Perhaps another perspective will shed some light ..?
Here we have charitable fellows toiling day in and day out for those who
are needy ,wanting or unable to do for themselves, those who wish they
could have access to power of clean water or perhaps grow some crops
or provide some light or warmth or housing .
this is true Charity...
they have a dream and it involves hard work and dedication ,not some
fleeting moment playing at a hobby,each and everyone of them has a
history of selfless giving...
Tinsel included...
so I flip your ignorant Charity comment back in your face .
Also I make note,
That these forums have need of charity ,the kind of charity which the likes of
Slider,TinselKoala,Tinman ,itsu ,Rob Mason,Grumage,Wesley and many othere BUILDERS AND EXPERIMENTERS who very charitably donate Much time and resource for the benefit of this community
as well as those who charitably support them and others behind the scenes.
When you believe so strongly in a cause [a better Planet] that you give until it hurts
every day....well your right MARK E sometimes you have to reflect on the burden this places on your benefactors ,there is only so much they can do for you...
So yes these charitable men need some give back from those who would benefit from their years of selfless toiling .
so this constitutes a new direction where those who need help
and have been getting it for many years from a few dedicated researchers
[that actually do more than sit behind a desk and critique]
those folk can help themselves and other less fortunate by recognizing
that this group of men stand head and shoulders above the likes of Sterling
Allen and truly do deserve everything that we can send their way to help
them Help Us to make this a better world for all.
But you are right about at least One thing Mark E
we would not want their well to run dry...
Chet
PS
And yes I completely understand that this is just something you do to
pass time and you absolutely have no belief whatsoever in what we do here.
as they say in the Big House..
You do you...
I will be starting another topic on this to clarify this new direction.
Quote from: ramset on February 21, 2015, 01:39:18 PM
Mark E
Quote
I have tried to convey a very simple message to you several times now: Charity is a finite resource. Use it wisely.
End Quote
----------------------------
Charity is a Big word ,implies an association with the Needy ,wanting, unable to survive unassisted etc etc
In This case I feel you are using this word as a Dig, you don't approve.
Then you feel wrong. there is no dig. Like the many other people and organizations that seek charity you ask for donations. That's asking for charity. One can always ask and others can always say yes or no. As long as fraud isn't involved any transactions are the business of the participants.
My message isn't hidden or nuanced. There's a finite supply of donors Use it wisely.
Quote
Perhaps another perspective will shed some light ..?
Here we have charitable fellows toiling day in and day out for those who
are needy ,wanting or unable to do for themselves, those who wish they
could have access to power of clean water or perhaps grow some crops
or provide some light.
Well, that would be true if those fellows would not be doing what they do if it were not for requests from others. Responsibility follows those who make the decisions. Others may benefit, and they do they may be grateful or not. They may decide to show gratitude materially or not.
Quote
this is true Charity...
A wise fellow once said that the only true charity is anonymous.
Quote
they have a dream and it involves hard work and dedication ,not some
fleeting moment playing at a hobby,each and everyone of them has a
history of selfless giving...
Tinsel included...
What motivates people unseen could be anything. I have not made any attempt to guess.
Quote
so I flip your nasty self righteous condescending Charity comment back in your face .
Basically, you have been flipping out reading all kinds of fantastical ideas into what has been a simple and sincere piece of advice.
Quote
Also I make note,
That these forums have need of charity ,the kind of charity which the likes of
Slider,TinselKoala,Tinman ,itsu ,Rob Mason,Grumage, and many othere BUILDERS AND EXPERIMENTERS who very charitably donate Much time and resource for the benefit of this community
as well as those who charitably support them and others behind the scenes.
When you believe so strongly in a cause [a better Planet] that you give until it hurts
every day....well your right MARK E sometimes you have to reflect on the burden this places on your benefactors ,there is only so much they can do for you...
So yes these charitable men need some give back from those who would benefit from their years of selfless toiling .
Again that's the Catch-22 with true Charity: Someone acting out of true charity does not seek
anything in return, not even recognition. If others choose to support and/or reward what they see as worthy good works, that is up to them to decide. No matter how good the works, some will and others won't. The number who will is finite.
Quote
so this constitutes a new direction where those who need help
and have been getting it for many years from a few dedicated researchers
[that actually do more than sit behind a desk and critique]
If you hae something to say, why don't you just say it?
Quote
those folk can help themselves and other less fortunate by recognizing
that this group of men stand head and shoulders above the likes of Sterling
Allen and truly do deserve everything that we can send their way to help
them Help Us to make this a better world for all.
First, evaluation of the worth of any person's work is in the eye of the beholder. There is no moral obligation for one to support the efforts of another just because someone thinks that they are doing something valuable. If someone thinks that they are doing something valuable or could do something valuable if only they could find a patron, they are free to seek out the charity of one or more patrons. Different people will always have different ideas about the value of any other person's efforts. While I think TK does great work, there are nutters who think he is an agent of big oil. Nothing compels those nutters to contribute towards TK's ongoing work. Conversely, there are people you believe are doing valuable work that others will assess quite differently.
Quote
B[size=78%]ut you are right about at least One thing Mark E [/size]
we would not want their well to run dry...
Chet
PS
And yes I completely understand that this is just something you do to
pass time and you absolutely have no belief whatsoever in what we do here.
I don't believe in extraordinary claims that lack evidence.
Quote
as they say in the Big House..
You do you...
I've never been a guest of the State. I wouldn't know. Occasionally fraudsters like Greg Potter end up in such places.
Quote
I will be starting another topic on this and will not post another word here.
Mark E
your liking the association as presented here as charity
would be like the captain of a sinking ship calling the food and
support of those keeping his boat afloat Charity...
here there is a symbiotic relationship which is much more personal
to the task at hand .
however your disinterest in assisting those that are helping keep your boat a float
and referring to their needs as charity speak volumes.
I will leave you to your tower and unique perspective ,I have to go grab a pail...
Quote from: ramset on February 21, 2015, 03:19:43 PM
Mark E
your liking the association as presented here as charity
would be like the captain of a sinking ship calling the food and
support of those keeping his boat afloat Charity...
You ask for donations. That's charity. There's nothing wrong with it per-se. It is what it is. I have no idea why it upsets you so.
Quote
here there is a symbiotic relationship which is much more personal
to the task at hand .
If you are referring to the relationship between the donors and your group one can always hope that both sides are satisfied with the results.
Quote
however your disinterest in assisting those that are helping keep your boat a float
and referring to their needs as charity speak volumes.
Spades are spades even if you refuse to recognize them. My flotilla seems to be doing just fine independent of the efforts of slider.
Quote
I will leave you to your tower and unique perspective ,I have to go grab a pail...
Do as you like.
Quote from: MarkE on February 21, 2015, 11:02:41 AM
I have tried to convey a very simple message to you several times now: Charity is a finite resource. Use it wisely.
If I were considering equipping someone who might casually chase an unusual idea, I think that I would be inclined to purchase the gear, and loan it rather than gift it. That way if the equipment does not see good use, I would at least have the theoretical option of redeploying it some place else.
It's just a bunch of blokes chipping in for a mate. Pretty common over here.
Quote from: Jimboot on February 22, 2015, 02:26:23 AM
It's just a bunch of blokes chipping in for a mate. Pretty common over here.
And that's just fine. Chet seems objects that I call that the charity that it is. The word charity apparently carries some negative connotation for him. He also seems miffed that I have not contributed to his appeals.
Mark E
actually I know a lot of folks like you,they laugh and tell me all the time.
;D " HEY , Everything looks great from My House" ;D
;D "I love the world just the way it is" ;D
------------------------------------------------------------------------
your perspective of people working together to make THEIR world a better place as Charity cases with a limited well to draw from,is actually no surprise whatsoever.
actually seems a perfect fit ..
Quote from: ramset on February 22, 2015, 05:24:20 AM
Mark E
actually I know a lot of folks like you,they laugh and tell me all the time.
;D " HEY , Everything looks great from My House" ;D
;D "I love the world just the way it is" ;D
------------------------------------------------------------------------
your perspective of people working together to make THEIR world a better place as Charity cases with a limited well to draw from,is actually no surprise whatsoever.
actually seems a perfect fit ..
Chet perhaps you can explain how any of these personal jabs are supposed to help your cause for the betterment of man kind.
If you think that there is an inexhaustible well of donors who will supply you with money, you are free to do so. If you think less of me or anyone else who does not contribute to your campaigns, you are also free to do so.
Mark
I suppose the concept is not within your frame of reference ,It seems
JimBoot gets it and so do others.
Please do not think I am judging you or feel less of you [not that you would care].
we feel there is a job to do and many hands make light work,everyone does what
they can,and suddenly we find ourselves in a place where we would never be on
our own...with resources we would never have by ourselves..
we are a band of brothers working towards a goal ,a completely open source goal.
your comparing this to Sterling Allen and scams and charities or begging
completely explains your position here,you have defined it quite clearly.
However, Your well never runs dry ,and I thought it odd that you would think others would ??
so I am quite confident you will be chipping in too, until the last man standing
and actually look forward to your help here and no I don't consider that charity.
may your well never run dry...
I know mine won't !![[as long as I have a heart beat]
respectfully
Chet
ps
The projects will be outlined shortly in the new thread [next few days]
Quote from: ramset on February 22, 2015, 09:33:27 AM
Mark
I suppose the concept is not within your frame of reference ,It seems
JimBoot gets it and so do others.
Please do not think I am judging you or feel less of you [not that you would care].
we feel there is a job to do and many hands make light work,everyone does what
they can,and suddenly we find ourselves in a place where we would never be on
our own...with resources we would never have by ourselves..
we are a band of brothers working towards a goal ,
your comparing this to Steling Allen and scams and charities or begging
It is simply amazing: I never asserted scam, yet you state that I did. I gave Sterling Allan's action of going to the well too often as a cautionary example. And yes you have set yourself up as charity because you are asking for donations. And no, there isn't anything wrong with that. How many times do I have to repeat myself?
Quote
completely explains your position here,you have defined it quite clearly.
It is obvious that you don't get it, and I am at a loss to think of anyway to make it simpler or clearer.
Quote
however, Your well never runs dry ,and I thought it odd that you would think others would?
Now what the heck are you on about? Before a something can run dry it has to first exist. I am not asking for donations, you are. I do not have a proverbial well.
Quote
so I am quite confident you will be chipping in too, until the last man standing
and actually look forward to your help here.
I recommend that you sharpen up your logical processes.
Quote
may your well never run dry...
I know mine won't !![[as long as I have a heart beat]
So you say.
Quote
respectfully
Chet
ps
The projects will be outlined shortly in the new thread [next few days]
Good for you. If you get around to articulating a plan you would probably do better to use a fundraising site such as "Go Fund Me" or Indiegogo.
Mark
I suppose the concept is not within your frame of reference ,
It seems JimBoot gets it and so do others.Please do not think I am judging you or feel less of you [not that you would care].
we feel there is a job to do and many hands make light work,everyone does what they can,and suddenly we find ourselves in a place where we would never be on our own...with resources we would never have by ourselves..
We are a band of brothers working towards a goal ,a completely open source goal.your comparing this to Sterling Allen and scams and charities or begging completely explains your position here,you have defined it quite clearly.
However, Your well never runs dry ,and I thought it odd that you would think others would ??
So I am quite confident you will be chipping in too, until the last man standing and actually look forward to your help here and no I don't consider that charity.may your well never run dry...I know mine won't !![[as long as I have a heart beat.
respectfully
Chet
ps
The projects will be outlined shortly in the new thread [next few days]
Regarding equipment purchases and project allocation, I am keenly aware of the sensitive nature of this endeavor, having been a former Director of Research and Development for many years in my professional life. It was a difficult position, you couldn't please everyone. Generally projects that were most in line with the company mission statement were funded first and with the best equipment and project resources. Other projects didn't make full funding, and some were unfunded and not pursued.
All equipment went into an equipment pool and were lent to the projects according to certain criteria. When the project was finished, other projects could request the equipment.
One thing is for sure, all projects required that proposals be submitted first, with expected goals and the investment would have to have some success probability attached. Also the projects would be aimed at surpassing current technology by adequate benchmarking with existing technology. Where no such goalpost was to be had, the project was not funded or very lightly funded.
Fortunately I do not serve on such a committee as it is a difficult position, and as far as I know there is no such committee, how recipients are selected I do not know. What is obvious is that there are only a handful of posters that actually worked in the real world and had responsibilities and headaches of project management and resource allocation. They know who they are.
The other approach is "Hey Hey! Let's buy a bloke a beer" which has it's pitfalls for the bloke might actually be expected to drive the "car" home. If there are no expectations, then it could be just "charity" or a "gift".
Kind Regards
ION
Pardon me for butting in here, but this discussion seems slightly... er.... ridiculous.
The people who wanted to donate have already done so, the goal has been met and exceeded in only 14 hours from the time it started. The donations have been for the most part small.... Brad dug deep and made a big one and we all should be thanking him for that. I'm sure that different people see different causes as "worthy" and some who have not contributed here may contribute to others in the future, and vice-versa. Some who are unable to contribute monetarily but might otherwise want to, like me, may find their situations change in the future, or we may contribute in different ways like with time or references or explanations. Some who have contributed might find their situations have changed and might regret chipping in with money that could have gone elsewhere! The key point is that nobody is being forced to contribute and the goal is an honest one and stated up-front. Some people resent the term "charity" and don't like to be put in the position of accepting "charity" because it offends their pride. Perhaps there is a subtle difference between receiving a "gift" and accepting "charity". Pride goeth before a fall, I think is the saying that applies here.
Hi TK
I think you mentioned that you had some equipment for sale, but I can't seem to find the thread. I might be a willing buyer. Let me know what you have and the asking price.
Kind Regards
Vortex1
Quote from: Vortex1 on February 22, 2015, 01:12:46 PM
Hi TK
I think you mentioned that you had some equipment for sale, but I can't seem to find the thread. I might be a willing buyer. Let me know what you have and the asking price.
Kind Regards
Vortex1
I would rather like to get rid of this HP8640B RF signal generator. It weighs a ton though and shipping it would be a pain.
Here's an idea of the price range that they are going for... or rather what is being _asked_ for, on EBay:
http://www.ebay.tv/sch/i.html?_sop=3&_nkw=hp+8640b&_frs=1
I know mine has Opt 003 but I can't remember if it has the other options, and it's behind a pile of other stuff right now. I do plan to pull it out and fool around with it in a week or so though... :(
I also have a handful of new-old-stock Motorola MC1590G precision wideband amplifiers with AGC, I'd like to get 10 dollars US each for them. Asking price on Ebay is between 10 and 20 dollars each.
Quote from: TinselKoala on February 22, 2015, 03:44:07 PM
I would rather like to get rid of this HP8640B RF signal generator. It weighs a ton though and shipping it would be a pain.
Here's an idea of the price range that they are going for... or rather what is being _asked_ for, on EBay:
http://www.ebay.tv/sch/i.html?_sop=3&_nkw=hp+8640b&_frs=1 (http://www.ebay.tv/sch/i.html?_sop=3&_nkw=hp+8640b&_frs=1)
I know mine has Opt 003 but I can't remember if it has the other options, and it's behind a pile of other stuff right now. I do plan to pull it out and fool around with it in a week or so though... :(
I also have a handful of new-old-stock Motorola MC1590G precision wideband amplifiers with AGC, I'd like to get 10 dollars US each for them. Asking price on Ebay is between 10 and 20 dollars each.
Hi TK
I'm sure your price would be very reasonable, but will have to regrettably decline the item, as I have been suffering with a severe lower back problem and another boat anchor would probably be a major pain.
Already have a few of the MC1590G's. Maybe someone else will take up your offer.
Kind Regards
Vortex1
Vortex1
Quote
Snip " all projects required that proposals be submitted first, with expected goals and the investment would have to have some success probability attached. Also the projects would be aimed at surpassing current technology by adequate bench marking with existing technology. Where no such goalpost was to be had, the project was not funded or very lightly funded.
end quote
-------------
Wonderful Model !!
This is a proper path for success as well as being a good steward of precious resources .
We need to stick as close as possible to this Model.
Thank you
Chet
Quote from: TinselKoala on February 22, 2015, 12:32:45 PM
Pardon me for butting in here, but this discussion seems slightly... er.... ridiculous.
The people who wanted to donate have already done so, the goal has been met and exceeded in only 14 hours from the time it started. The donations have been for the most part small.... Brad dug deep and made a big one and we all should be thanking him for that. I'm sure that different people see different causes as "worthy" and some who have not contributed here may contribute to others in the future, and vice-versa. Some who are unable to contribute monetarily but might otherwise want to, like me, may find their situations change in the future, or we may contribute in different ways like with time or references or explanations. Some who have contributed might find their situations have changed and might regret chipping in with money that could have gone elsewhere! The key point is that nobody is being forced to contribute and the goal is an honest one and stated up-front. Some people resent the term "charity" and don't like to be put in the position of accepting "charity" because it offends their pride. Perhaps there is a subtle difference between receiving a "gift" and accepting "charity". Pride goeth before a fall, I think is the saying that applies here.
I would have to agree TK,the job is done.
i see worthy causes to be those who actually build and experiment,not talk,talk,talk-and Mark(slider) is a builder--always has been. My donation was actually going toward your scope TK,but when i returned from vacation i see yours had already been taken care of-so Mark was next on the hit list lol. I have had many people donate stuff to me and my reserch,and it was time to give back.
I dont need any proposals to be submitted first,i can clearly see who dose the hard yard's,and those i believe will put this equipment to good use-regardless of outcome. As my free time has become extreemly limited in the last year,and i have very little time to build and test,i have decided to help out in a financial way insted-->and i'll be there for the next one as well.
Anyway--job well done i think.
Quote from: Vortex1 on February 22, 2015, 05:50:20 PM
Hi TK
I'm sure your price would be very reasonable, but will have to regrettably decline the item, as I have been suffering with a severe lower back problem and another boat anchor would probably be a major pain.
Already have a few of the MC1590G's. Maybe someone else will take up your offer.
Kind Regards
Vortex1
No problemo, the HP RF generator makes a great doorstop in drafty conditions, and I do plan to use it myself (for about half an hour) in a week or so for some equipment checkouts. It can even be used as a low-power AM or FM radio transmitter since it can be modulated by external audio input.
I think I have about 24 of the amplifiers and I'll never have a use for more than one or two. They are all still on their blue plastic factory holder things to keep the leads unbent, too. I wonder why you have some... they aren't exactly everyday stock items like 741s or 555s.
Quote from: TinselKoala on February 23, 2015, 11:43:23 AM
No problemo, the HP RF generator makes a great doorstop in drafty conditions, and I do plan to use it myself (for about half an hour) in a week or so for some equipment checkouts. It can even be used as a low-power AM or FM radio transmitter since it can be modulated by external audio input.
I think I have about 24 of the amplifiers and I'll never have a use for more than one or two. They are all still on their blue plastic factory holder things to keep the leads unbent, too. I wonder why you have some... they aren't exactly everyday stock items like 741s or 555s.
Hi TK
Yes I have couple of old HP generators, one with FM and modulation, so heavy I can barely lift them anymore. Fortunately, I don't have to, they permanently keep the bench from flying away. Also have a few GR Freq synthesizers..very old school.
As for components, having worked in the industry for over 40 years, parts reps were always changing suppliers, and as I was friends with them, they would gift me their old leftover sales kit bags, lots of samples of all types. I've lost track of everything I have, but try to inventory it now and again. Finding things is the problem here as I now probably could outfit a small surplus store like "Fertiks," one of my old surplus shopping spots in N.E Phila.
Regards, Vortex1 / ION
Hi guys
Tinsel or anyone else, is there any HV probe that i can look to from Rigol or from Ebay matching the Rigol DS1054Z scope? Something economical i mean for taking HV measurements.
Tnks in advance
Hi Jeg,
i have a HVP-15HF probe which works very well for me, its x1000.
You can find them on Ebay, like here:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-High-Voltage-low-noise-probe-for-scope-DMM-50Mhz-15KV-1000-1-Tektronix-OEM-/221528106688?hash=item33941aa6c0
I also have a Tektronix P5100 x100 (2500V) probe which works also very good with the lower voltages (2500V max.) also from Ebay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tektronix-TEK-P5100-Probe-High-Voltage-250-MHz-100X-/131567627688?hash=item1ea20aada8
Regards Itsu
I have a much cheaper "P4100" probe 100x, 100Mhz, that I got from an Ebay seller for 25 dollars US, postage paid. It seems to work OK so far. Max rating 2kV dc + ac.
Thank you guys. I will go for the P4100 probes. I found it 21 euro with free international shipping!!! For higher voltages perhaps I ll make an attenuator
http://www.ebay.com/itm/100X-P4100-High-Voltage-2KV-2000V-Oscilloscope-Scope-Passive-Clip-Probe-100MHz-/251678142479?hash=item3a992fb00f
I was about to buy a used Tektronix tds220 scope for 380 euros with its communication card. Hopefully last minute I decided to take the new Rigol.
I hope everything will go well and scope will arrive in one piece from Us to Europe. ???
Jeg, just be _very careful_ when you use that probe. I would suggest that you always use it with the spring grabber tip firmly attached, and to connect it to the circuit under test _before_ you turn the circuit's power on, so that you aren't moving the probe around in a live HV circuit. Also check to make sure that whatever you connect the Ground clip to doesn't have any voltage present. And discharge any capacitors before hooking up!
This is generally good practice anyway.
Thanks for the advice Tinsel! I really don't want to make again the same mistake that I did before some months, when I both destroyed my analog oscilloscope and my frequency generator together! One shot! In just a moment I put myself out of experimentation for a long time. Anyway. We learn from our mistakes. Some times cost a lot but eventually we learn something! I hope..
Hi guys
The baby came! ;D What a nice toy! My first dso and I am really very excited!
Tinsel your lights please!
What is the maximum voltage that I can measure when the probe is set to X10 ?
I can't get the high voltage probes that we discussed above and so I am thinking to build this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUvSP3BQpvs
Do you think that by placing a lower value capacitor instead of 2nF will correct the response to higher frequencies?
Jeg, congratulations on your new instrument! The RP2200 probes that come with the Rigol DS1054Z are rated to 300 VAC in the 10x setting and 150 VAC in the 1x setting. (Category II). The scope inputs themselves are rated 300 VRMS (Cat I).
I can't say anything about the home-made HV probe. If you do decide to build one yourself, I can only say... Be Careful! I also don't know about the capacitance question. Better safe than sorry... use a probe that's designed for the purpose.
Jeg
Congrats on the new Scope, Rigol has very good customer support and service worldwide .
Chet K
Thank you Tinsel, Chet :)
I got it Tinsel, it is a risk! Ok, I will try to locate a hv probe. The problem is that my country is under capital controls and is not allowed to order anything from eBay or any other international company. Thanks God I found this Rigol here, and very close to the original $399 price.
A very interesting article by Doug Ford on oscilloscope probes.
http://www.dfad.com.au/links/THE%20SECRET%20WORLD%20OF%20PROBES%20OCt09.pdf
he says......."I dissected the cable further and was surprised to discover that the core wire appeared to be very thin resistance wire, with
a resistance of around 100~200 per metre! See Fig.8. This very fine core wire appears to be made from a single
strand and is "crinkled" – presumably to provide tolerance to repeated flexing......."
Does anyone has an idea on where to search for a cable like that?
Tnks
That's why it is so hard to repair good probes, they use that wire, which solder doesn't stick to.
I haven't been able to find a source for that wire myself. But it's not really needed for low-bandwidth probes; you can make your own simple probes using regular 50 or 75 ohm coax.
For example,
http://cromwell-intl.com/radio/probes.html
Tinsel I managed to order two p4100 probes from eBay through a friend of mine who lives abroad. But still want to mess with HV with better response than P4100 at frequencies up to 50MHz which is the limit of my rigol. (I still don't believe that I have a scope like this on my bench). I will also fix my old analog one and any signal before going in to the new DSO, it has to pass first from the old analog. ;D What I learned from this, is that analog scopes can be fixed easy because they have an input channel board which takes all the HV.
If hv pass in to the DSO then start crying before even see what happened :D
Quote from: Jeg on September 29, 2015, 01:36:44 PM
Tinsel I managed to order two p4100 probes from eBay through a friend of mine who lives abroad. But still want to mess with HV with better response than P4100 at frequencies up to 50MHz which is the limit of my rigol. (I still don't believe that I have a scope like this on my bench). I will also fix my old analog one and any signal before going in to the new DSO, it has to pass first from the old analog. ;D What I learned from this, is that analog scopes can be fixed easy because they have an input channel board which takes all the HV.
If hv pass in to the DSO then start crying before even see what happened :D
The 50 MHz bandwidth of the DS1054Z doesn't mean that that is the "limit" of the scope. Oscilloscope bandwidth is usually defined as the 3db rolloff point of amplitude of a sine wave signal. That is, as the signal gets higher and higher in frequency, the scope will show it at lower and lower amplitude, and when the amplitude of the displayed signal is 3dB less than the true value of the signal, that is considered the "bandwidth" of the scope. The scope will still work at higher frequencies though; it's just that the display of the higher frequency signal components is attenuated more or less.
The good news is that the Rigol is conservatively rated; the 3dB rolloff point is more like 60 MHz for sinewaves. The even better news is that the scope can be "unlocked" to give 100 MHz bandwidth, which is also conservative; some people who have tested the "unlocked" scope have found that the 3dB rolloff point is over 100 MHz.
Once you've got your scope "burned in" and are past the vendor's guarantee (30 days here in the USA from TEquipment), and you know you aren't going to have to return it under the Rigol factory warranty, you can easily unlock your scope to add the 100MHz bandwidth and the advanced trigger features.
Yes, I agree about using the Analog scope on the HV measurements first... they are usually repairable if something goes wrong. I wouldn't even know where to start repairing the Rigol's front end if it failed from overvoltage on the input, though.
Very nice info Tinsel, thank you!
Do you have any video of yours working on the FFT capability of the Rigol?