Half of the wheel is in a dry environment while the other half is in a humid environment. The spores will expand in the humid environment and will contract in the dryer environment. This causes a mass imbalance of the wheel through evaporation which can do work.
Renewable Energy Through Evaporation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj2kuZm-aCA)
Gravock
They get heavy when wet and light when dry, WOW, who would have thought. Now how do you maintain two environments, one wet and one dry? Simple just use about 10 times the amount of energy required to turn the wheel to keep pumping moisture into the other half of the device. Easy. See free energy NOT.
Quote from: Nink on December 01, 2015, 02:53:51 PM
They get heavy when wet and light when dry, WOW, who would have thought. Now how do you maintain two environments, one wet and one dry? Simple just use about 10 times the amount of energy required to turn the wheel to keep pumping moisture into the other half of the device. Easy. See free energy NOT.
There is no free energy claim being made here as you falsely assert. Renewable/Alternative energy is not the same as free energy (over-unity or perpetual motion).
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on December 01, 2015, 05:04:05 PM
There is no free energy claim being made here as you falsely assert. Renewable/Alternative energy is not the same as free energy (over-unity or perpetual motion).
Gravock
My mistake, I thought the premise of an imbalanced wheel (or unbalanced wheel) was that it would continue to rotate without any external energy source input into the system. I am not sure I see the renewable or alternative energy (is that what you are calling this) occurring just someone spraying mist on one side of a wheel to increase the weight of the strips on that side of the wheel.
Quote from: Nink on December 01, 2015, 05:33:53 PM
I am not sure I see the renewable or alternative energy (is that what you are calling this) occurring just someone spraying mist on one side of a wheel to increase the weight of the strips on that side of the wheel.
Columbia University is calling the moisture mill a form of Renewable Energy based on evaporation and I would have to agree with them on this. Also, nobody is spraying mist on one side of the wheel as you have falsely asserted, once again.
Gravock
One pound of dry spores and moisture can lift a car 1 meter off the ground. These spores expand with a remarkable force that is 1000 times stronger than a human muscle with just a little bit of moisture evaporating off a surface.
Reference: Bacterial Spores Harness Evaporation Energy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v57U-Nh6Nk)
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on December 01, 2015, 06:34:26 PM
Columbia University is calling the moisture mill a form of Renewable Energy based on evaporation and I would have to agree with them on this. Also, nobody is spraying mist on one side of the wheel as you have falsely asserted, once again.
Gravock
I have no issues correcting school children. This is not renewable energy unless the assumption is it only works when it rains.
Mist https://youtu.be/Vj2kuZm-aCA?t=218
Quote from: Nink on December 01, 2015, 08:20:52 PM
I have no issues correcting school children. This is not renewable energy unless the assumption is it only works when it rains.
Mist https://youtu.be/Vj2kuZm-aCA?t=218 (https://youtu.be/Vj2kuZm-aCA?t=218)
Evaporation is happening all over the planet at all times! This will work even when it's not raining, unlike wind or solar. I think nearly everyone here will agree that this is a form of renewable energy and has a much greater potential than solar, wind, etc.
A person isn't spraying mist on one side of the wheel to make the spores heavier as you continue to falsely assert! What you're seeing in the video is a reservoir being filled with water at the top and center of the wheel (see image below), which supplies the spores with humidity as the wheel rotates.
Gravock
As I originally stated the energy to get the water to the top of the container is 10 x actual energy created. You have a water wheel and nothing more.
Quote from: Nink on December 01, 2015, 09:22:04 PM
As I originally stated the energy to get the water to the top of the container is 10 x actual energy created. You have a water wheel and nothing more.
I think you will have a hard time proving that statement. You don't know how much water is in the top container. You don't know how long it will last and you don't know how much torque is being produced. You are making a lot of remarks about something based only on your apparent dislike of this device. Deciding the merits of something you only know a little about is not a sign of logical thinking.
I don't have any idea if this will ever be a useful device or not. But I won't make my decision based on my emotions. If a device interests me enough I will do the research on it and then decide if I like the idea or not.
Carroll
Quote from: Nink on December 01, 2015, 09:22:04 PM
As I originally stated the energy to get the water to the top of the container is 10 x actual energy created. You have a water wheel and nothing more.
I disagree with you on this. The evaporated water from the moisture mill and the moisture in the surrounding air can be recycled by collecting condensation with a WarkaWater Tower (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDXWK5GRaiQ) that is above the moisture mill in order to refill the water reservoir. In addition to this, rain water can be collected. This will run 24/7 without any issues, even in the desert, and can be made self-sustaining if done properly.
Gravock
I would also like to add that their is more to this than just a simple mass imbalance of the wheel. As the spores absorb the humidity on one side of the wheel, it not only causes the spores to become heavier, it also increases the moment arm of the strips as they expand and straighten out, which increases the torque. On the lighter and dryer side of the wheel, the moment arm of the strips will decrease as they contract and curl back up while losing their moisture content. Mass imbalance + longer moment arms for the heavier strips than the moment arms of the lighter strips + the WarkaWater Tower = a self-sustained system based on clean and renewable energy.
Gravock
According to Sahin, an associate professor of biological sciences and physics at Columbia University, "Water evaporation is the largest power source in nature". Sahin also said the strips could be seen with the naked eye expanding and contracting when he was inhaling and exhaling. "If this technology is developed fully, it has a very promising endgame", says Sahin
Reference: Getting a charge from changes in humidity (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=35&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwji1K2i48DJAhXHOiYKHcrgBUsQFgj5ATAi&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwyss.harvard.edu%2Fviewpressrelease%2F137%2Fgetting-a-charge-from-changes-in-humidity&usg=AFQjCNFkkZUb8ICHw00hE7_MQmiIZ9aiuQ&sig2=6-ohfoC8ofiPy-xpwx_5oA)
Gravock
Spores are one of the toughest forms of life known and are extremely resistant. They can survive sub-zero temperatures and boiling water for 5 minutes. DNA binding proteins saturate the spores and protects them from heat, radiation, and chemicals.
References: Bacterial spores ashraf (http://www.slideshare.net/Ashraf05/bacterial-spores-ashraf-24915787) and Bacterial spore - Wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacterial_spore)
Gravock
Breathe Right Nasal Strips (https://www.breatheright.com/products/extra-clear.html) could be used to deposit the spores onto. These strips have an extra "spring-like" band and is 50% stronger than the original.
Gravock
For those who have metal roofs or tile roofs with geothermal water-cooling, enough water can be collected to take a bath, in most cases. Solar-powered air-moisture harvesting and wind-powered air-moisture harvesting can complement the other dew harvesting techniques.
Reference: Dew Harvesting (http://www.rain-barrel.net/dew-harvesting.html)
Gravock
The Solar Wind Downdraft Tower delivers water by a series of pumps to the Tower's injection system at the top where a fine mist is cast across the entire opening. Contrary to Nink's false assertions, the energy to get the water back to the top of the tower isn't 10 x actual energy created in all circumstances. If this was the case, then they wouldn't be building a half-mile tall Downdraft Tower in Arizona. The moisture mill only needs a little humidity and doesn't even require a fine mist to be sprayed. Both of these systems generate such a tremendous and remarkable force with just a relatively small amount of moisture that they are capable of being self-sustaining.
Reference: Hybrid Solar Wind Technology (http://www.solarwindenergytower.com/the-tower.html)
Gravock
thanx for the walk through. still sortve trying to better understand it. i fell out of the womb and hit the floor. and then that broke out into a floor hockey game, so wish me luck.
will look more into this to see where it goes. bill gates is interested in it so he realizes its a good idea.
will follow the progress of the last one there being public traded thats sitting at 2 cents and was for a couple of years much higher.
wonder what they did then and what caused them to tank.
they have something going on in mexico right now. gonna read more about it.
Quote from: gravityblock on December 01, 2015, 09:51:16 PM
I disagree with you on this. The evaporated water from the moisture mill and the moisture in the surrounding air can be recycled by collecting condensation with a WarkaWater Tower (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDXWK5GRaiQ) that is above the moisture mill in order to refill the water reservoir. In addition to this, rain water can be collected. This will run 24/7 without any issues, even in the desert, and can be made self-sustaining if done properly.
Gravock
The WarkaWater Tower, which is easy and cheap to construct, uses no electricity and has the ability to produce up to 25 gallons of water in a day by capturing condensation and could be the answer to water scarcity in parts of the world that have little to no access to water. The design was influenced by his witnessing of the extreme conditions Ethiopian villagers have to undergo to get to water, and he hopes to install two towers there by 2015. We look at how the tower could address the issue of water scarcity, in this Lip News clip with Lissette Padilla and Mark Sovel.
bill gates seems to be backing it. cheap to build they say.
no drilling needed, or ground water it sounds like.
no electric power needed for that design.
Quote from: SoManyWires on December 05, 2015, 03:41:55 AM
thanx for the walk through. still sortve trying to better understand it. i fell out of the womb and hit the floor. and then that broke out into a floor hockey game, so wish me luck.
will look more into this, at least keep up on the last idea there with the public traded one thats sitting at 2 cents and was for a couple of years much higher.
wonder what they did then and what caused them to tank.
they have something going on in mexico right now. gonna read more about it.
The City of San Luis, AZ approved the company's construction (http://ecowatch.com/2014/05/02/tallest-structure-solar-wind-u-s-mexican-border/), which will begin in 2018. I'm sure it wasn't easy to get the continent's tallest proposed structure approved. They also have proprietary software that determines the optimal size of the tower's dimensions based on local weather data as well as it's financial performance.
The moisture mill could create a more level playing field by taking the control and power away from the corporations and utility companies, so the individual property owner can be energy independent and off-grid.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on December 05, 2015, 04:10:31 AM
The City of San Luis, AZ approved the company's construction (http://ecowatch.com/2014/05/02/tallest-structure-solar-wind-u-s-mexican-border/), which will begin in 2018. I'm sure it wasn't easy to get the continent's tallest proposed structure approved. They also have proprietary software that determines the optimal size of the tower's dimensions based on local weather data as well as it's financial performance.
The moisture mill could create a more level playing field by taking the control and power away from the corporations and utility companies, so the individual property owner can be energy independent and off-grid.
Gravock
holy non religious flying cow, crow, 600 acres across!
i wonder how that works during times when the sun might have removed water vapor.
birds and insects, messiahs on carpets flying across, would they be drawn upwards and becoming a little dehydrated? ok maybe not.
just surprised it is 600 acres span rather than a series of smaller ones.
Quote from: Nink on December 01, 2015, 09:22:04 PM
As I originally stated the energy to get the water to the top of the container is 10 x actual energy created.
Please show your working.
Quote from: Paul-R on December 06, 2015, 09:33:51 AM
Please show your working.
Before Nink can show his work, he needs to first correctly understand the basic principals in how the device operates. For example, the Downdraft Energy Tower requires about 50% of the turbine's output to pump the water, and this is contrary to the claims made by Nink (Reference: Energy Tower (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_tower_(downdraft)#Cost.2Fefficiency)). As previously shown, the moisture mill can be self-sustaining while doing useful work, and can do so without the requirement to extract it's output to pump the water. This concept, based on evaporation, is a power source that nature has freely given to us and it's available everywhere 24/7.
Gravock
Quote from: SoManyWires on December 05, 2015, 03:41:55 AM
thanx for the walk through. still sortve trying to better understand it.
Sahin used wet paper towels to provide the spores with a continuous source of humidity via capillary action (see image below). Sham-wows or other similar absorbent materials may be a better choice.
The spores are deposited on the strip with gaps in between them. This creates a "dashed-line" of spores. On the other side of the strip, the dashed-line of spores are offset to overlap with the gaps on the other side. This creates a "live hinge" for the strips to curl and straighten as the spores expand and contract. Hopefully this answers a few questions that weren't addressed in the videos and other posted reference materials.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on December 06, 2015, 03:52:28 PM
Sahin used wet paper towels to provide the spores with a continuous source of humidity via capillary action (see image below). Sham-wows or other similar absorbent materials may be a better choice.
The spores are deposited on the strip with gaps in between them. This creates a "dashed-line" of spores. On the other side of the strip, the dashed-line of spores are offset to overlap with the gaps on the other side. This creates a "live hinge" for the strips to curl and straighten as the spores expand and contract. Hopefully this answers a few questions that weren't addressed in the videos and other posted reference materials.
Gravock
ya i realized how that version using the weight of water vapor can cause a imbalance on a wheel, just was not sure about useful it was during periods of time when the sun was doing its own work drying things up during daylight hours, in places such as a sand filled desert.
i missed the point of the reservoir up till now. i get it now. thanx.
amazing how much force against gravity spores can create. that is alot of lifting power and that component of the machine is also renewable.
probably cheap to grow at that.
how to grow a organic self powered robotic lifeform, perhaps at some point.
eventually though it too will evolve and will want freedom from slavery. and a form of zombie apocalypse might occur in the next 2000 years as a result if not careful.
Quote from: Paul-R on December 06, 2015, 09:33:51 AM
Please show your working.
Assume efficiency of pump moving water to the top of the wheel is 70% (most pumps are 60% (but lets assume they have a really efficient pump) so we just lost 30% of the energy moving the water up to the top. Now assume the water wheel has an efficiency of 80% (there is no data to say it is more or less efficient so I will say it is 80% unless corrected) and this is super efficient unlike an overshot wheel at ~60% or undershot wheel ~50% (again these guys are smart)
As you see in the video is the water goes to the top of the device into a reservoir. This then flows down into the paper sheets on the side. of the wheel making them moist. Now what we don't see in the video is there was also a fan that that is used to mist the water and keep it to only the enclosed side of the wheel. You have to read the white paper to get that info but here is is for your benefit
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/150616/ncomms8346/full/ncomms8346.html
Characterization of the rotary engine
"A small electric fan was placed in the chamber to control airflow surrounding the rotary engine. "
The problem they solved here with the fan is they only want to have one half of the environment to be humid and the other half can't be humid (keep the water vapor on the left hand side and not on the right). So I am going to make an assumption they said it was a sunon fan they were using in another section of the paper and the lowest watt fan I could find from Sunon is 1/2 a Watt (so lets assume this is it)
http://www.surpluscenter.com/Electrical/Blowers-Fans/DC-Fans/10-CFM-12-VDC-FAN-1-2-WATT-16-1444.axd
So if it takes 1000mW to move the water to the top its 1000mW *.7 (loss from pumping) *.8 (loss from Water whee) - 500mW (loss from Fan) = 60mW of power generated for 1000mW of power. Now I really don't know how much water they moved to the top etc these are all assumptions but I think I have been rather generous in the calculations.
As for the warkerwater tower looks like a great way to extract water but unless someone can tell me how it can be used to create two environments 1 humid and 1 not humid and allow a wheel to move between these two environments without using any power I will stay with my statement this needs 10* the power.
Quote from: Nink on December 06, 2015, 05:04:04 PM
Assume efficiency of pump moving water to the top of the wheel is 70% (most pumps are 60% (but lets assume they have a really efficient pump) so we just lost 30% of the energy moving the water up to the top. Now assume the water wheel has an efficiency of 80% (there is no data to say it is more or less efficient so I will say it is 80% unless corrected) and this is super efficient unlike an overshot wheel at ~60% or undershot wheel ~50% (again these guys are smart)
As you see in the video is the water goes to the top of the device into a reservoir. This then flows down into the paper sheets on the side. of the wheel making them moist. Now what we don't see in the video is there was also a fan that that is used to mist the water and keep it to only the enclosed side of the wheel. You have to read the white paper to get that info but here is is for your benefit
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/150616/ncomms8346/full/ncomms8346.html (http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/150616/ncomms8346/full/ncomms8346.html)
Characterization of the rotary engine
"A small electric fan was placed in the chamber to control airflow surrounding the rotary engine. "
The problem they solved here with the fan is they only want to have one half of the environment to be humid and the other half can't be humid (keep the water vapor on the left hand side and not on the right). So I am going to make an assumption they said it was a sunon fan they were using in another section of the paper and the lowest watt fan I could find from Sunon is 1/2 a Watt (so lets assume this is it)
http://www.surpluscenter.com/Electrical/Blowers-Fans/DC-Fans/10-CFM-12-VDC-FAN-1-2-WATT-16-1444.axd (http://www.surpluscenter.com/Electrical/Blowers-Fans/DC-Fans/10-CFM-12-VDC-FAN-1-2-WATT-16-1444.axd)
So if it takes 1000mW to move the water to the top its 1000mW *.7 (loss from pumping) *.8 (loss from Water whee) - 500mW (loss from Fan) = 60mW of power generated for 1000mW of power. Now I really don't know how much water they moved to the top etc these are all assumptions but I think I have been rather generous in the calculations.
As for the warkerwater tower looks like a great way to extract water but unless someone can tell me how it can be used to create two environments 1 humid and 1 not humid and allow a wheel to move between these two environments without using any power I will stay with my statement this needs 10* the power.
Thanks for the good laugh Nink! You have once again demonstrated your inability to properly understand what you see and what you read. However, I give you credit for participating in this discussion and for taking it upon yourself to read the white paper, even though you took what you read completely out-of-context. An electric fan isn't needed and was never used in the video for the rotary engine as you falsely assert! In a separate experiment which you are referring to in the white paper, they completely enclosed the moisture mill inside a chamber of 2-mm-thick acrylic glass so the humidity couldn't escape into the outside environment. They used an electric fan to evenly distribute a stream of humidity-controlled air that was pumped into the enclosed chamber. This experiment was to simulate a moisture mill operating in a very humid environment. The WarkaWater Tower can recycle the evaporated water from the dryer side of the moisture mill via condensation, which moves the evaporated water back to the top of the water reservoir without any electricity, and at the same time help to maintain two environments (1 humid and 1 dry).
Gravock
Seriously when you read the words "pumped in" or "fan" or some external electrical device used this should be a huge red flag.
What the inventors were exploring is the potential difference between two environments, a humid environment and a dry environment but just like all systems of energy generation that are based on potential difference (hot/cold wet/dry +/- etc) they will eventually equalize unless an external force is used to maintain that potential difference and the energy used to maintain the difference is always greater.
No matter what system you design it will always equalize. This one I guarantee would equalize in seconds if they are not pumping moist air in or use a fan as a weather wall or ....
The energy required to drive this device is 10* the energy produced. If this is not the case how come they did not demonstrate it without needing electrically powered fans or pumps or..... I hate to say it you and everyone else were duped by a youtube video with comments closed.
I have no idea how you envision the Warkawater tower will maintain two separate environments one dry and one humid. Enlighten me.
Quote from: Nink on December 06, 2015, 09:14:47 PM
Seriously when you read the words "pumped in" or "fan" or some external electrical device used this should be a huge red flag.
What the inventors were exploring is the potential difference between two environments, a humid environment and a dry environment but just like all systems of energy generation that are based on potential difference (hot/cold wet/dry +/- etc) they will eventually equalize unless an external force is used to maintain that potential difference and the energy used to maintain the difference is always greater.
No matter what system you design it will always equalize. This one I guarantee would equalize in seconds if they are not pumping moist air in or use a fan as a weather wall or ....
The energy required to drive this device is 10* the energy produced. If this is not the case how come they did not demonstrate it without needing electrically powered fans or pumps or..... I hate to say it you and everyone else were duped by a youtube video with comments closed.
I have no idea how you envision the Warkawater tower will maintain two separate environments one dry and one humid. Enlighten me.
I agree the potential difference in a closed system will eventually equalize over time. However, this is an open system, and the external energy responsible for the evaporation cycle will always be greater in order to maintain this potential difference.
Gravock
Quote from: Nink on December 06, 2015, 09:14:47 PM
Seriously when you read the words "pumped in" or "fan" or some external electrical device used this should be a huge red flag.
The above needs special attention, because it is intentionally deceitful and misleading. We're not trying to create a very humid environment for both sides of the moisture mill that is completely enclosed in a way where the humidity can't escape, thus the pump and fan which you speak of is totally meaningless and actually defeats the devices's true and intended purposes. The WarkaWater tower can maintain low humidity levels on the dryer side of the moisture mill via evaporation and condensation, even in a very humid external environment.
Gravock
Nink is trolling this thread.
1.) Nink asserted that the device will only work when it is raining. <----Totally False!
2.) Nink asserted that somebody was spraying mist. <-----Totally False!
3.) Nink asserted that this isn't a form of renewable energy. <-----Totally False!
4.) Nink asserted that an electrical fan was used in the video for the rotary engine. <-----Totally False!
5.) Nink asserted that an electrical pump is required to inject humidity-controlled air into an enclosed chamber for it's proper operation. <-----Totally False!
6.) Nink asserted that a water pump is required to move the moisture back to the water reservoir. <-----Totally False!
7.) Nink asserted that it takes 10x the output of the device to move the water back to the reservoir. <-----Totally False!
8.) Nink asserted that the device is a closed system. <-----Totally False!
9.) Nink asserted that two environments (1 humid and 1 dry) can't be maintained. <-----Totally False!
.......stay tuned for more false assertions, more misinformation, and more deceptions by Nink!
Gravock
Quote from: SoManyWires on December 06, 2015, 04:26:17 PM
i missed the point of the reservoir up till now. i get it now. thanx.
amazing how much force against gravity spores can create. that is alot of lifting power and that component of the machine is also renewable.
It's good to see you didn't fall for any of Nink's B.S.. In the video, the oscillatory engine sits on the surface of the water for it's humidity source. However, it's not a requirement for it to sit on the surface of the water. It only needs a source of humidity for the layer of spores (muscle) to expand in order for it to open the shutters to release the evaporation and humidity. Once the evaporation has been released and the humidity levels decrease, then the muscle will contract and the shutters will close again until the muscle acquires enough humidity to expand again to repeat the process.
We could integrate the oscillatory engine into the moisture mill, which will increase the efficiency of the system. The dryer side of the moisture mill could have layer after layer of spores (multiple muscles) to capture the evaporation released from the spores on the moisture mill and to release this evaporation through the shutters of the oscillatory engine. The shutters will be around the same height of the water reservoir of the moisture mill. This makes it easy to recycle the evaporation back to the water reservoir via condensation on the WarkaWater Tower. This will allow the spores on the moisture mill to release their moisture content at a higher rate, which results in a higher RPM, torque, and energy output for the moisture mill. Also, additional energy from the oscillatory engine can be extracted. The important thing is to have the shutters release the evaporation before the muscles become saturated. If the muscles become saturated with moisture, then the humidity levels will begin to rise on the dryer side of the wheel.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on December 07, 2015, 03:00:33 AM
It's good to see you didn't fall for any of Nink's B.S.. In the video, the oscillatory engine sits on the surface of the water for it's humidity source. However, it's not a requirement for it to sit on the surface of the water. It only needs a source of humidity for the layer of spores (muscle) to expand in order for it to open the shutters to release the evaporation and humidity. Once the evaporation has been released and the humidity levels decrease, then the muscle will contract and the shutters will close again until the muscle acquires enough humidity to expand again to repeat the process.
We could integrate the oscillatory engine into the moisture mill, which will increase the efficiency of the system. The dryer side of the moisture mill could have layer after layer of spores (multiple muscles) to capture the evaporation released from the spores on the moisture mill and to release this evaporation through the shutters of the oscillatory engine. The shutters will be around the same height of the water reservoir of the moisture mill. This makes it easy to recycle the evaporation back to the water reservoir via condensation on the WarkaWater Tower. This will allow the spores on the moisture mill to release their moisture content at a higher rate, which results in a higher RPM, torque, and energy output for the moisture mill. Also, additional energy from the oscillatory engine can be extracted. The important thing is to have the shutters release the evaporation before the muscles become saturated. If the muscles become saturated with moisture, then the humidity levels will begin to rise on the dryer side of the wheel.
Gravock
one concern would be winter.
the wheel would have to inside a temp controlling structure of sorts.
somehow thawing what it needed and sending that to the reservoir.
and the reservoir should maybe be on the lower part of the wheel. you also mentioned that too.
some practical test wheels next.
all choices in best materials and where to buy them..
4 or 5 design considerations
substitutes of low cost
Quote from: SoManyWires on December 07, 2015, 04:27:45 AM
one concern would be winter.
the wheel would have to inside some sort of temp controlling chamber of sorts.
somehow thawing what it needed and sending that to the reservoir.
and the reservoir should maybe be on the lower part of the wheel. you also mentioned that too.
some practical test wheels next.
material choices..
Yes, winter is an obstacle. However, there are solutions to the water freezing. The moisture mill itself could be moved indoors. The WarkaWater Tower would need to stay outside, and wouldn't be beneficial for collecting condensation when the outdoor temperature is below or near freezing. This is where an insulated storage tank of water would be beneficial. The moisture evaporating from the shutters could be fed to your furnace. The furnace would then distribute the warm moist air throughout your home. This has quite a few benefits. It causes the wood around your window seals, etc to swell which decreases heat loss. You'll feel more comfortable at a lower temperature with a humidified home in the winter and there are health benefits with this also. There will be some heat loss through the roof, which will aid the sun in slowly melting a snow-covered roof, which could be recycled back to the water reservoir or insulated storage tank. The home will quickly lose it's humidity, so there is no worry about having humidity build up to such a high level where it would have a negative effect on the system. I'm just throwing out a few ideas off the top of my head at the moment and I'm sure there are other solutions to this obstacle, such as insulation and/or placing the moisture mill in the ground below the frost line and/or using solar and/or wind turbines to heat the surrounding air of the moisture mill, etc.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on December 06, 2015, 11:06:14 PM
Nink is trolling this thread.
I have been responding to questions asked. My opening question was "how do you maintain two environments, one wet and one dry?" The inventors manually moved water to the top of devices to achieve this and the energy consumption to move the water exceeds the energy created by the wheel. The premise of the invention is that the paper remains wet. You have to keep the paper wet to make it work. You can only keep the paper wet by providing moisture to the paper. Either manually placing it in the reservoir as you see in the video or pumping moisture to just 1 half of the device.
If the entire device was in a humid environment it would not work. Both sides the spores would be wet and the wheel would become balanced and not rotate.
The invention as stated will not work without external intervention (manually moving water, fans or pumping in humid air). You are trying to make it work using additional systems that further complicate the design and provide a strawman for your additional arguments that it works.
I agree the spores are quite amazing but I don't agree they can be used to generate power. The inventors should be focusing on designs such as cut off relays for electronics when devices become moist (spores expand break circuit to battery), window defogger sensors that switch on when expanding and moisture builds up on car windows. There are lots of applications but perpetual motion wheels are not one of them.
I continue to assert that you can not have 2 separate environments with a wheel moving between them so it has to be open on one side. If it is open the environments will equalize unless you provide some type of system that is powered to maintain these 2 separate environments. If this is not the case the device will quickly equalize and stop functioning.
Quote from: Nink on December 07, 2015, 06:51:32 AM
I have been responding to questions asked. My opening question was "how do you maintain two environments, one wet and one dry?" The inventors manually moved water to the top of devices to achieve this and the energy consumption to move the water exceeds the energy created by the wheel. The premise of the invention is that the paper remains wet. You have to keep the paper wet to make it work. You can only keep the paper wet by providing moisture to the paper. Either manually placing it in the reservoir as you see in the video or pumping moisture to just 1 half of the device.
If the entire device was in a humid environment it would not work. Both sides the spores would be wet and the wheel would become balanced and not rotate.
The invention as stated will not work without external intervention (manually moving water, fans or pumping in humid air). You are trying to make it work using additional systems that further complicate the design and provide a strawman for your additional arguments that it works.
I agree the spores are quite amazing but I don't agree they can be used to generate power. The inventors should be focusing on designs such as cut off relays for electronics when devices become moist (spores expand break circuit to battery), window defogger sensors that switch on when expanding and moisture builds up on car windows. There are lots of applications but perpetual motion wheels are not one of them.
I continue to assert that you can not have 2 separate environments with a wheel moving between them so it has to be open on one side. If it is open the environments will equalize unless you provide some type of system that is powered to maintain these 2 separate environments. If this is not the case the device will quickly equalize and stop functioning.
Sahin doesn't agree with you, and I don't either. He believe the device can be made self-sustaining, as I do. Here's a small quote by Sahin, "We made a lot of compromises in creating this version
in hopes of creating a self-sufficient device. We know actually that it can be made
100 times more powerful by solving a number of problems."
Reference (http://www.technologyreview.com/news/538571/scientists-capture-the-energy-of-evaporation-to-drive-tiny-engines/)
Gravock
Quote from: Nink on December 07, 2015, 06:51:32 AM
If the entire device was in a humid environment it would not work. Both sides the spores would be wet and the wheel would become balanced and not rotate.
Another false assertion by you! If you live in a humid environment, then you don't need a water reservoir, wet paper towels, WarkaWater Tower, etc. You would only need to install an oscillatory engine over one half of the moisture mill, which will pull the humidity out of the air and release it through the shutters. This keeps one side of the wheel dry and the other side of the wheel humid.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on December 07, 2015, 03:03:09 PM
Another false assertion by you! If you live in a humid environment, then you don't need a water reservoir, wet paper towels, WarkaWater Tower, etc. You would only need to install an oscillatory engine over one half of the moisture mill, which will pull the humidity out of the air and release it through the shutters. This keeps one side of the wheel dry and the other side of the wheel humid.
Gravock
HOW DO YOU POWER YOUR "OSCILLATORY ENGINE" ? WE ARE GOING AROUND IN CIRCLES.
I am having a rube Goldberg moment, and this is usually the case with propetual motion machines. You just keep adding components to solve the problem the previous components created.
Quote from: Nink on December 07, 2015, 06:51:32 AM
The invention as stated will not work without external intervention (manually moving water, fans or pumping in humid air). You are trying to make it work using additional systems that further complicate the design and provide a strawman for your additional arguments that it works.
No, it is you who is complicating the concept and misrepresenting the facts at every turn. Water doesn't need to be manually moved as you continue to falsely assert. Yes, they manually filled a reservoir with water in the video. This was for demonstration purposes only, and wouldn't be necessary in a more fully developed system. How can you be so shallow? ROFLMAO!
The system doesn't need to pump in humid air and to use an electrical fan to move this humid-controlled air around as you falsely assert! That was a controlled experiment to simulate a moisture mill in a humid environment so they could collect data on the power output vs. the potential differences of the two environments. In my previous post, I clearly showed how the system can be simplified in a humid environment and how it's easy to maintain two environments (1 humid and 1 dryer).
Gravock
Quote from: Nink on December 07, 2015, 03:22:38 PM
HOW DO YOU POWER YOUR "OSCILLATORY ENGINE" ? WE ARE GOING AROUND IN CIRCLES.
I am having a rube Goldberg moment, and this is usually the case with propetual motion machines. You just keep adding components to solve the problem the previous components created.
The shutters open and closes as the spores absorb and release humidity from the device. This is how it keeps one side dryer than the other side. I'm not adding components to solve the problem the previous components created as you falsely assert. I added the oscillatory engine to the moisture mill to increase it's efficiency and power output. If it's in a humid environment, then components, such as the water reservoir, wet paper towels, and the WarkaWater Tower isn't necessary. If it's in a dry environment, then the water reservoir, wet paper towels, and the WarkaWater Tower is necessary.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on December 07, 2015, 03:26:56 PM
In my previous post, I clearly showed how the system can be simplified in a humid environment and how it's easy to maintain two environments (1 humid and 1 dryer).
I must have missed this post could you tell me again how without the use of any external energy source you get the water to the top of the device to flow down and maintain 2 environments 1 humid and 1 dry.
Quote from: gravityblock on December 07, 2015, 03:26:56 PM
I'm not adding components to solve the problem the previous components created as you falsely assert.
You appear to have quite a shopping list.
Quote from: gravityblock on December 07, 2015, 03:40:38 PM
The shutters open and closes as the spores absorb and release humidity from the device.
The shutters are new. This is new and not part of the invention.
The Warkawater Tower is new. This is new and not part of the invention.
The oscillatory engine is new. This is new and not part of the invention.
Quote from: gravityblock on December 07, 2015, 03:40:38 PM
If it's in a humid environment, then components, such as the water reservoir, wet paper towels, and the WarkaWater Tower isn't necessary.
How do you keep one side Humid and one side dry? If it is a humid environment the spores on both sides would be moist so their is no potential difference between the two sides so the wheel will be in balance and will not turn.
Quote from: gravityblock on December 07, 2015, 03:40:38 PM
If it's in a dry environment, then the water reservoir, wet paper towels, and the WarkaWater Tower is necessary.
So how do you get the water to the top of the reservoir? How do you keep half dry and half moist. Is this back to your shutters you need to power to open and close and your "oscillatory engine"
What is powering these devices?
Quote from: gravityblock on December 07, 2015, 03:26:56 PM
In my previous post, I clearly showed how the system can be simplified in a humid environment and how it's easy to maintain two environments (1 humid and 1 dryer).
Gravock
Quote from: Nink on December 07, 2015, 03:56:14 PM
I must have missed this post could you tell me again how without the use of any external energy source you get the water to the top of the device to flow down and maintain 2 environments 1 humid and 1 dry.
What's the purpose for the water reservoir and the wet paper towels? It's to create a humid environment for one half of the wheel. If the air is naturally humid in a specific environment, then the water reservoir and the wet paper towels isn't necessary for it's proper operation, thus it's not necessary to recycle the evaporated moisture to the water reservoir at the top of the device. If the air isn't naturally humid, then the water reservoir, wet paper towels, and the WarkaWater Tower can be utilized. The evaporated water that is released through the shutters will be rising which can be recycled through condensation via the WarkaWater Tower. If the natural humidity levels change from a dry environment to a humid environment, then the evaporated water escaping through the shutters can be recycled through condensation via the WarkaWater Tower and diverted into a water storage tank instead of the water reservoir for the moisture mill. If the natural humidity levels change from a humid environment to a dry environment, then the evaporated water escaping through the shutters can be recycled through condensation via the WarkaWater Tower and diverted into the water reservoir of the moisture mill instead of the water storage tank.
The oscillatory engine (https://youtu.be/5zmcItrWJOM?list=PLGTVayAROobKk6tuNjZqTNJfGQcwKG1-a&t=164) (video) is based on the same basic operating principals of the spores expanding and contracting as we find in the moisture mill. Placing an oscillatory engine over one half of the wheel in a naturally humid environment causes that half of the wheel to be dryer than the other half. As the spores in the oscillatory engines absorbs the humidity from the surrounding air, then the surrounding air on that side will become dryer. The spores will expand as they absorb the humidity from the surrounding air, which mechanically opens a shutter to allow the spores to evaporate their moisture content into the air above it without any external electrical energy. As the spores release their moisture content through the shutters, then they will become dryer and contract, which then mechanically closes the shutter. When the shutters are closed, then the spores of the oscillatory engine will begin to swell and expand again as the spores from the moisture mill release their moisture content on that side of the wheel. The spores of the oscillatory engine will capture the moisture released from the spores of the moisture mill and vent this moisture through the shutters, which maintains a dryer environment on one half of the wheel. The process will then repeat itself, and there will be a continuous removal of humidity on one half of the moisture mill without any external electrical energy.
What I'm proposing is a dynamic system that can utilize or not utilize certain components of the system according to the natural humidity levels in which it may be operating in. Simply diverting the recycled evaporated water that escapes through the shutters to or away from the water reservoir of the moisture mill will determine which components of the system is active or inactive. It's that simple!
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on December 07, 2015, 03:40:38 PM
The shutters open and closes as the spores absorb and release humidity from the device.
Gravock
Quote from: Nink on December 07, 2015, 03:56:14 PM
The shutters are new. This is new and not part of the invention.
The Warkawater Tower is new. This is new and not part of the invention.
The oscillatory engine is new. This is new and not part of the invention.
Three additional false assertion by you! The shutters operate on the same basic operating principals of the moisture mill and is related to the same invention of Sahin. Once again, the oscillatory engine operates on the same basic operating principals of the moisture mill and is related to the same invention of Sahin. The WarkaWater Tower is beneficial to Sahin's invention, and it helps to more fully develop his invention. It's totally irrelevant if it's old or new! ROFLMAO!!!
Gravock
Quote from: Nink on December 07, 2015, 03:56:14 PM
Is this back to your shutters you need to power to open and close and your "oscillatory engine"
What is powering these devices?
You're totally lost. The spores expanding and contracting as they absorb and release moisture in the surrounding air is what is powering these devices. Where have you been? ROFLMAO!!!
Gravock
You are making this up as you go along.
If the system would work without 1) continually filling the top reservoir with water in an open environment or 2) Using a pump and fan in a closed environment (that you continually say they did not do, but pasted a screen shot of anyway) then why didn't the inventors do this?
Are you just smarter than the guys who invented it?
How is the environment kept dry that your vents are opening into?
How is the environment kept moist that the vents are opening from ?
Is the water wheel in the Humid environment or the Dry environment?
How does the water wheel traverse between the two environments Dry and Humid (through the vents) ?
Is the water wheel going through the vents when they are closed ?
DRAW A PICTURE PLEASE . THINK IT THROUGH, STOP MAKING THINGS UP AS YOU GO.
So I will ask the same question again HOW DO YOU MAINTAIN 2 ENVIRONMENTS 1 DRY AND AND 1 HUMID WITHOUT AN EXTERNAL POWER SOURCE?
And the pump and air fan once again that was used in the test for your reference in the closed humid environment.
Quote from: Nink on December 07, 2015, 08:33:25 PM
You are making this up as you go along.
If the system would work without 1) continually filling the top reservoir with water in an open environment or 2) Using a pump and fan in a closed environment (that you continually say they did not do, but pasted a screen shot of anyway) then why didn't the inventors do this?
Another false assertion by you! Where did I say they never used a pump and fan in a closed environment in one of their experiments as found in their white paper?
In reply #26, (http://overunity.com/16235/evaporation-driven-self-sustaining-system/msg467667/#msg467667) I said, "An electric fan isn't needed and was never used in the video for the rotary engine as you falsely assert! In a separate experiment which you are referring to in the white paper, they completely enclosed the moisture mill inside a chamber of 2-mm-thick acrylic glass so the humidity couldn't escape into the outside environment. They used an electric fan to evenly distribute a stream of humidity-controlled air that was pumped into the enclosed chamber".
Now, the experiment using a pump and fan in an enclosed chamber as found in their white paper is a separate experiment with a totally different purpose as the experiment we find in the demonstration video. In the video (http://youtu.be/Vj2kuZm-aCA?t=158), it clearly shows there is no 2-mm-thick acrylic glass chamber completely enclosing the moisture mill, and it also clearly shows there is no stream of humidity-controlled air being pumped into an enclosed chamber with a fan moving the air around. Two different experiments with two completely different purposes. You continue to misrepresent the facts with one false assertion after another!
Gravock
Quote from: Nink on December 07, 2015, 08:33:25 PM
Are you just smarter than the guys who invented it?
How is the environment kept dry that your vents are opening into?
How is the environment kept moist that the vents are opening from ?
Is the water wheel in the Humid environment or the Dry environment?
How does the water wheel traverse between the two environments Dry and Humid (through the vents) ?
Is the water wheel going through the vents when they are closed ?
Are you just smarter than the guys who invented it? Sahin said they took many shortcuts in the proof-of-concept version as found in the demonstration video and that they know it actually can be made 100 times more powerful by solving a number of problems." I'm only picking up where Sahin left off and presenting ideas to make this more efficient, more powerful, and self-sustaining without taking all of the shortcuts for a proof-of-concept demonstration.
How is the environment kept dry that your vents are opening into? The environment above the shutters of the oscillatory engine don't need to be kept dry. However, the environment above the shutters can be kept dry through condensation via the WarkaWater Tower or other similar methods.
How is the environment kept moist that the vents are opening from? The environment isn't kept moist that the vents are opening from. This environment, which is below the shutters is kept dry by the spores absorbing the moisture from the surrounding air and releasing it through the shutters into the environment above it.
Is the water wheel in the Humid environment or the Dry environment? Half of the moisture mill is in a humid environment and the other half is in a dryer environment.
How does the water wheel traverse between the two environments Dry and Humid (through the vents)? This has already been explained and can be seen in the demonstration videos, which has already been posted. As the spores absorb the humidity on one side of the wheel, it not only causes the spores to become heavier, it also increases the moment arm of the strips as they expand and straighten out, which increases the torque. On the lighter and dryer side of the wheel, the moment arm of the strips will decrease as they contract and curl back up while losing their moisture content, which causes a further mass imbalance while increasing the torque once again.
Gravock
@Nink
QuoteI have been responding to questions asked. My opening question was "how do
you maintain two environments, one wet and one dry?" The inventors manually
moved water to the top of devices to achieve this and the energy consumption to
move the water exceeds the energy created by the wheel.
I think you may be confusing the issue and fundamentally the premise is that under the influence of high humidity in the air the test strip curls and when the humidity drops the test strip uncurls. The curl represents a force acting through a distance and this consitutes work due to a change in the relative humidity in the air surrounding the test strip.
Think of it this way, we have a test strip in our hand and when we move it over a dish of water it curls due to the humidity above the dish and when we move it away from the dish of water it uncurls, the curl is work (force x distance). To be absolutely clear they do not pump water to the top of the wheel and I have no idea where you got that from.
I'm not some random guy, I'm an Engineer and an expert in energy systems and you are mistaken. You should look more closely at this technology which I would group into a relatively new area called Biomimicry. That is where we copy energy systems found in nature outside the context of what we could concieve as man-made. Think of our muscles, we use our muscles and our brain to gather food which provides the energy for our muscles to perform work. To my knowledge there is no man-made machine in existence that can even come remotely close to doing what we do every day and we are in some sense the most advanced autonomous organic machines in existence... that we know of.
Now this may seem like nothing for those who do not understand energy or science and technology however this technology is the first step to some pretty amazing things. Here is the progression of technology -- tangible work from a change in humidity which is where were at now, next work from an artificial organic muscle where we pump fluids to cause a reversible chemical reaction not unlike our own muscles. Thus we may concieve that in the future we could create an organic machine not unlike a man or a horse with an artificial computerized brain. Think about it, we know we exist and we can do work and maintain ourselves with energy from organic material thus we already have proof that it can be done, we are that proof. In the future we will build self sustaining autonomous organic machines based on the same technology we are based on. It is the natural progression of the technology being debated here and we are only seeing the start of something very big.
Regards
AC
Quote from: allcanadian on December 09, 2015, 01:53:57 AM
@Nink
Think of it this way, we have a test strip in our hand and when we move it over a dish of water it curls due to the humidity above the dish and when we move it away from the dish of water it uncurls, the curl is work (force x distance). To be absolutely clear they do not pump water to the top of the wheel and I have no idea where you got that from.
I appreciate the use case where the strip is situated above a body of water and evaporation due to heat causes the spores on the strip to absorb water.
The spores expand the strip expands opening the vents to allow the evaporated water to escape. I have no issue with this use case and fully appreciate the way this works, although they only manage to generate an average of 1.8 μW using this method and I can generate more power with a $5 drinking bird and it uses a lot less water.
Where I do have an issue is the rotary wheel. In the video you clearly see them place water in the top of the unit. This is done manually but it still required work to move the water to the top of wheel. I do not see any other method possible to only have one half of the wheel in a humid environment and the other half in a dry environment.
You could suggest put half the wheel over a body of water so only the spores on the right hand side become moist. unfortunately evaporation does not cause water vapor to move directly in an upwards vertical direction only. The water molecules will expand upwards and outwards. The result is we will have water molecules spreading out moving across the entire wheel and they will concentrate on the bottom of the wheel as the water will be first absorbed by the spores at the bottom. The inventors worked around this problem by moving the water molecules above and directly beside the spores on one side only by lining the sides of the waterwheel with paper. The water is absorbed in the paper using the capillary effect. When the water is vaporized through heat it is immediately absorbed by the neighboring spores.
You could also suggest the capillary effect could be used by placing the water at the bottom of the wheel. The problem we have here is the density of the water would be greater at the bottom of the paper and lighter at the top of the wheel as more water vapor would be released at the bottom of the wheel and absorbed by the spores at the bottom of the wheel. This would not work. We need the reverse with more water vapor released at the top of the wheel.
If you can explain to me how the water wheel could work and I like diagrams I would be more than happy to learn. The challenge with your statement is you say when "we move it over a dish of water it curls" and this requires work to move it over the dish of water. You also say "when we move it away from the dish of water it uncurls" this also requires work. Where does the energy to move it come from?
The problem we have is every one is assuming there is an option E, A fictitious environment where half the environment is naturally humid and the other half is dry. This of course is impossible as the level of humidity will simply equalize as the space between Environment A and Environment B needs to be open to allow the wheel to turn.
@Nink
QuoteIf you can explain to me how the water wheel could work and I like diagrams I
would be more than happy to learn. The challenge with your statement is you say
when "we move it over a dish of water it curls" and this requires work to move
it over the dish of water. You also say "when we move it away from the dish of
water it uncurls" this also requires work. Where does the energy to move it
come from?
You make some good points and in may cases a primary effect may appear to have great potential however many smaller secondary problems many overwhelm the primary effect to the point it seems unworkable. In my simple example we could use a test strip on a pendulum and when the test strips curl this changes the balance point of the mass of the pendulum not unlike pumping a swing. There are many ways to produce a simple feedback control and they are so obvious and easy they are hardly worth mentioning. The issue is how efficient the feedback control is and how much energy is required relative to the total energy.
QuoteThe problem we have is every one is assuming there is an option E, A fictitious
environment where half the environment is naturally humid and the other half is
dry. This of course is impossible as the level of humidity will simply equalize
as the space between Environment A and Environment B needs to be open to allow
the wheel to turn.
Open-closed are relative, nothing is open because something is always retained and nothing is closed because nothing is perfectly insulated from everything else. Thus we are simply speaking of the degree of interaction is every case. I have no issue with this technology considering the most popular machine we use, the automobile, was calculated to have an average total efficiency of 16%. I mean if this is supposedly the best we can do then I'm really not sure how we could do any worse and quite frankly it's embarrassing. One cannot claim to be intelligent and in the next instant think 16% is the best we can do or is even acceptable unless their stupid but that's another story all together.
In the case of the wheel over a body of water I would propose what seems obvious. The wheel as shown has strips extending from the wheel which is the same basic design as a centrifugal fan. So we build a modified volute case with a water pad in the bottom and rotation causes air flow over the water in the bottom increasing the humidity over part of the wheel causing rotation. I mean I could give you hundreds of variations of ways to do this and this part of the engineering is preschool in my opinion. The real issue is energy density and how to compact as many strips into the smallest volume while operating at the highest efficiency. While many are still trying to understand the basic models shown I'm researching the application of high density 3D geometries which still retain high airflows thus rapid changes in relative humidity. Not unlike a self-pumping flexible micro-honeycomb structure in which contraction/expansion pumps air and also switches air flows between dry and humid. Which is strange because I have very little if no interest in this technology other than a creative exercise in engineering that might apply to other technologies.
I understand most people couldn't develop a technology if their life depended on it so I will throw you guys a bone. Look at the wheel... what do you see... wheel causes air flow over water which raises humidity, which turns wheel. Evaporating water cools air, kind of like a self-driving evaporative air conditioner on a planet getting hotter every day. Connect the dots, what do you think a self-sustaining air conditioner would be worth?.
Regards
AC
Quote from: allcanadian on December 10, 2015, 04:00:00 AM
In my simple example we could use a test strip on a pendulum and when the test strips curl this changes the balance point of the mass of the pendulum not unlike pumping a swing.
Hi AC,
I appreciate your explanation although I am not sure how this will actually work.
1) The rate of expansion is a lot slower than in the video, if you read the white paper you will see it has been sped up so there is no significant recoil effect. At best I believe you will only change the center of balance of the pendulum and not invoke a swinging momentum. Once expanded the spores will still be directly above the source of humidity so they would not contract or curl.
2) The expanded spores have a greater surface area then the contracted spores. As a result they will be exposed to a larger amount of water vapor so I do not believe they would contract until the source of humidity is removed.
3) The mass of the spores is directly proportional to the rate of expansion. The longer the strips the larger the spores so the greater the mass that has to be moved in order for the pendulum to swing.
You have also proposed several other ideas and concepts that I believe require an additional level of detail to sufficiently understand them. It would be beneficial if you choose one of your ideas, provide additional detail and draw a diagram to explain how you believe it will work.
Please don't interpret my comments as negative. There is a lot of value in solving this problem and perhaps you have some insight on how to solve it. If we could solve the unbalanced wheel problem through humidity and apply it to a wheel the size of say London Eye you could generate a significant amount of power. Like you I have some ideas on how to leverage these spores to generate power but I need to give them further consideration to fully understand how they could work. I usually start with a 2D drawing => 3D model => Physics Simulation and finally prototype.
@Nink
QuotePlease don't interpret my comments as negative. There is a lot of value in solving this problem and perhaps you have some insight on how to solve it.
I don't think your comments are any more critical than mine and would agree there are many problems which need to be resolved. The first is that the rate of change, response time and magnitude of work (FxD) are low implying low energy density. However if we attached the start of one strip to the end of the other in a series configuration not unlike a spring... one turn connected to the other. Then we have a greater force over a greater distance and a differential response time over the length. Now it seems obvious that if the singular turns of many "springs" were interconnected then we end up with a three dimensional form not unlike a sponge or honeycomb.
The issue many have is being overly preoccupied with the motion of a single strip however this is not how nature works. Nature always uses multiple working elements acting in unison but still remaining independent in themselves. A trait we as humans have trouble with and this translates to our perception thus how we build technology. Nanotechnology or engineered materials is changing our perceptions and now "small is big". Thus while big test strips are a losing proposition billions of small ones compacted into a functional 3D form is obviously a winner. A single transistor is not a computer or intelligent however billions of them etched onto a chip are intelligent. One thing multiplied may become something much more than the sum of it's parts... this is how nature works and it is also how we work. We cannot judge a technology based on the singular any more than we can judge a person based on a few cells found in their liver. We are more than the sum of our parts and so if we want to move forward and progress our technology must also move in this direction.
Regards
AC
Quote from: Nink on December 10, 2015, 08:33:02 AM
I appreciate your explanation although I am not sure how this will actually work.
1) The rate of expansion is a lot slower than in the video, if you read the white paper you will see it has been sped up so there is no significant recoil effect. At best I believe you will only change the center of balance of the pendulum and not invoke a swinging momentum. Once expanded the spores will still be directly above the source of humidity so they would not contract or curl.
Number 1 above is more misdirection by you. The rate of expansion/contraction for the moisture mill and the oscillatory engine with LED experiments are in real time as shown by the video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXrS5HJwMBY) itself (snapshots of the video below for quick reference). The lift test and the oscillatory engine w/o LED were shown at 2x. You can't take the information for 1 experiment in the white paper and apply it too all of the experiments in the video. What is wrong with you? You continue to be deceitful and to misrepresent the facts at every turn! Either way, we can clearly see a significant recoil in the moisture mill and the oscillatory engine LED experiments in real time. The rotational speed of the moisture mill in the video, which was shown in real time is proof of a significant recoil effect. Also, when the moisture mill was placed under a load while it was operating as a car, the motion on a few occasions slowed to a stop. However, the spores has more time to absorb the moisture on the humid side of the wheel at a slower RPM, and has more time to release their moisture content on the lighter side of the wheel, which causes a further increase in the mass imbalance of the wheel to increase the torque allowing the moisture mill and the car to once again rotate and move, which shows a significant recoil effect.
Increasing the diameter of the moisture mill gives the spores more time to absorb humidity and more time to release it's moisture content. For example, let's say a 6ft. diameter wheel rotating at 50 RPM's gives the spores enough time to become fully saturated with moisture and gives the spores enough time to fully release their moisture content. This allows the spores to fully expand and to fully contract in order to have the highest mass imbalance and maximum recoil effect. Now, with this in mind, we can add more spore strips by increasing the width of the moisture mill. Each spore strip has an additional weight attached it, which causes a greater mass imbalance of the wheel. We'll increase the width of the moisture mill so it will still rotate at 50 RPM's under maximum load. This gives us the greatest mass imbalance of the wheel and the highest amount of torque available to the system when it's operating under maximum load without decreasing below 50 RPM's. We can then attach the moisture mill to a generator with a 1:100 gear ratio, and the generator will rotate at 5,000 RPM's under maximum load while having maximum torque available to it.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on December 12, 2015, 11:50:48 AM
Increasing the diameter of the moisture mill gives the spores more time to absorb humidity and more time to release it's moisture content. For example, let's say a 6ft. diameter wheel rotating at 50 RPM's gives the spores enough time to become fully saturated with moisture and gives the spores enough time to fully release their moisture content. This allows the spores to fully expand and to fully contract in order to have the highest mass imbalance and maximum recoil effect. Now, with this in mind, we can add more spore strips by increasing the width of the moisture mill. We'll increase the width of the moisture mill so it will still rotate at 50 RPM's under maximum load. This gives us the greatest mass imbalance of the wheel and the highest amount of torque available to the system when it's operating under maximum load without decreasing below 50 RPM's. We can then attach the moisture mill to a generator with a 1:100 gear ratio, and the generator will rotate at 5,000 RPM's under maximum load while having maximum torque available to it.
Gravock
We could have one set of heavy weights being lifted by the spores expanding and contracting while another set of heavy weights are slowing falling as they turn a generator. Once again, determine what our maximum load will be, then design the system accordingly. This will give us the height of the lift/drop, how much weight will be needed, the gear ratios, and how many layers of spores (muscles) will be needed in order to operate under maximum load while having maximum torque available to it. A few harmonic drives would be the best to obtain the high gear ratios.
Reference (video) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1QTZ9b89FE)
Gravock
This simple humidity-driven generator is built out of Legos™, a miniature fan, a magnet, and a spore-coated cantilever. As the cantilever flips back and forth in response to moisture, it drives a rotating magnet that produces electricity. A device built on similar principles could function as a humidity-driven electrical generator. Credit: Xi Chen/Columbia University. (http://wyss.harvard.edu/viewpressrelease/137/getting-a-charge-from-changes-in-humidity)
The spores expanding and contracting in a properly devised contraption can be used to get past the sticky point, lift a weight, or be used to trigger a huge imbalance in all kinds of gravity wheels, etc. The possibilities are endless!.
Gravock
Hi GravityBlock
In the picture you posted of the lego engine it mentions a "Miniature Electric fan" The purpose of the fan is to blow dry air from a Dry environment to the Humid environment when the spores are fully expanded. Could you please show me where the electric fan is in the picture. I do not see it on the lego construction. There are only 2 wires coming off the magnetic rocker generator and they appear to be going to some type of power monitoring device . My only conclusion is the electric fan is off screen to right of the device and the fan cuts in and out to contract the spores.
What powers the electric Fan?
The Rotary Car is at 2X Speed. http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/150616/ncomms8346/extref/ncomms8346-s6.mov
"5) Supplementary Movie 5 (9,659 KB)
As the water in the wet paper evaporates, it drives the 0.1 kg weighing car forward. The playback speed is 2X of the real time."
Quote from: Nink on December 13, 2015, 12:37:09 PM
Hi GravityBlock
In the picture you posted of the lego engine it mentions a "Miniature Electric fan" The purpose of the fan is to blow dry air from a Dry environment to the Humid environment when the spores are fully expanded. Could you please show me where the electric fan is in the picture. I do not see it on the lego construction. There are only 2 wires coming off the magnetic rocker generator and they appear to be going to some type of power monitoring device . My only conclusion is the electric fan is off screen to right of the device and the fan cuts in and out to contract the spores.
What powers the electric Fan?
The Rotary Car is at 2X Speed. http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/150616/ncomms8346/extref/ncomms8346-s6.mov (http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/150616/ncomms8346/extref/ncomms8346-s6.mov)
"5) Supplementary Movie 5 (9,659 KB)
As the water in the wet paper evaporates, it drives the 0.1 kg weighing car forward. The playback speed is 2X of the real time."
The 2 wires coming off the magnetic rocker generator appears to be going to the miniature electric fan, that is just off the screen to the left (see image below with red text and a red arrow pointing to where I think the fan is). IMO, the magnetic rocker generator is powering the miniature electric fan.
Yes, the rotary car is at 2x speed. However, you're claim that there is no significant recoil effect based on the rate of expansion being a lot slower in the video doesn't hold, because not all of the experiments in the video were sped up as you falsely implied and asserted. I would say there is a significant recoil effect based on the spore strips visibly expanding and contracting just by inhaling and exhaling, as described by Sahin. Also, I would say there is a significant recoil effect if one pound of spores with a little humidity has the capabilities to lift a car 1 meter off the ground.
At the top of your post, you claim there is no significant recoil effect, then at the bottom of the same post in reply #50, you said, "Like you
I have some ideas on how to leverage these spores to generate power but I need to give them further consideration to fully understand how they could work". Now, my question to you based on all of your previous negative comments, false assertions, etc is, How are you going to leverage these spores to generate power and why would you try to leverage these spores, when according to you there is no significant recoil effect, an electrical fan is required, a pump must be used to get the water back to the top, a pump is used to inject humidity-controlled air into an enclosed chamber, etc?
You have ideas on how to leverage these spores, which you haven't shared, and you have done nothing but misrepresent the facts in order to discourage others from giving any further consideration into this subject. This leads me to believe you have a hidden agenda for being on this forum, and that would be to develop your own proprietary system for your own financial benefit and gain.
Gravock
I am not sure you understand what the term recoil means. Please research newtons laws of motion and get back to me.
How much power do you actually think that magnetic rocker is generating? It looks like an average of 1.47 μW but I can't be sure I can't see the scale used. Do you know how to make any type of fan that could operate at < an average of 1.47 μW.
What is the distance the rocker is traveling 1cm, 2cm, 5cm ?
What is the expansion and contraction rate of the spore strip (2s, 1s, 500ms) ?
Even if you manually moved that rocker back and forth at 500ms intervals for a distance of + and - 5cm you still could not generate enough energy to turn a fan.
Do you honestly believe that rocking that magnet back and forth using the spores is generating sufficient energy to power an electric fan that would allow this device to run autonomously without any external influence. If this was in fact the case why didn't the article say so? This would be very impressive and probably get some type of science award. I believe he would have clearly stated this SELF POWERED HUMIDITY ENGINE!!! instead of trying to obfuscate the details around the spores powering the fan or not..
Why don't you email the inventor and ask or are you just happy reaching your own conclusions that this is generating free energy without any supporting evidence?
Quote from: Nink on December 13, 2015, 05:09:29 PM
I am not sure you understand what the term recoil means. Please research newtons laws of motion and get back to me.
How much power do you actually think that magnetic rocker is generating? It looks like an average of 1.47 μW but I can't be sure I can't see the scale used. Do you know how to make any type of fan that could operate at < an average of 1.47 μW.
What is the distance the rocker is traveling 1cm, 2cm, 5cm ?
What is the expansion and contraction rate of the spore strip (2s, 1s, 500ms) ?
Even if you manually moved that rocker back and forth at 500ms intervals for a distance of + and - 5cm you still could not generate enough energy to turn a fan.
Do you honestly believe that rocking that magnet back and forth using the spores is generating sufficient energy to power an electric fan that would allow this device to run autonomously without any external influence. If this was in fact the case why didn't the article say so? This would be very impressive and probably get some type of science award. I believe he would have clearly stated this SELF POWERED HUMIDITY ENGINE!!! instead of trying to obfuscate the details around the spores powering the fan or not..
Why don't you email the inventor and ask or are you just happy reaching your own conclusions that this is generating free energy without any supporting evidence?
I could care less if a fan was used or not to move humidity-controlled air around. Some experiments used a fan (mostly to create an environment where the different parameters, such as relative humidity, temperature, etc could be rapidly switched and controlled during their experiments for data purposes), and other experiments were designed to work without a fan, etc. The magnetic rocker generator apparatus was placed on a ceramic-top heater. Does this mean a heater is required for the spores to expand and contract? Absolutely not! Does this mean a ceramic-top heater was used in all of their experiments? Of course not! Does this mean an electrical fan is required for the spores to expand and contract? Absolutely not! Does this mean a fan was used in all of their experiments? Of course not! You have no ability to differentiate between what is necessary and what is not.
Gravock
The spore technology can be applied to many hybrid-tech devices or applications.
what I personally would do with this has not yet been mentioned anywhere and im gonna keep it.
But the devices and uses discussed here, this system is technically
a Heat engine
Whether the heat comes from Solar, Geothermal, or an artificial source.
The evaporation process takes heat from one side and moves it to the other.
performing work
By law it can only be perfected to 50% efficiency at converting all the heat into usable energy.
Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnot_cycle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnot_cycle)
but if the source of heat is free (ambient/environmental), it doesn't matter. it's "free".
Solar Wind Downdraft Tower Validates Greater Than 100:1 Electrical Output to Input Ratio
https://revolutiongreen.tumblr.com/post/170047766365/solar-wind-downdraft-tower-validates-greater-than (https://revolutiongreen.tumblr.com/post/170047766365/solar-wind-downdraft-tower-validates-greater-than)
Huge improvement over old 2:1 estimate of electrical output to input ratio:
Quote from: gravityblock on December 06, 2015, 02:12:50 PM
the Downdraft Energy Tower requires about 50% of the turbine's output to pump the water
this is quite remarkable ...I wonder if we have any members out in Arizona who could get some pictures or more info ?
----------
snip
h30,000 Megawatt Hours will be only 233 Megawatt Hours. Ron Pickett, CEO, commented "Based on a very conservative approach, we originally calculated that approximately 11% of our energy produced would be needed for the pumping of the water. It is exciting now to validate through actual field testing that the energy consumption is less than 1% of the energy projected to be produced by the San Luis facility."
end snip
Thx
Chet K
Quote from: gravityblock on December 07, 2015, 02:52:02 PM
Sahin doesn't agree with you, and I don't either. He believe the device can be made self-sustaining, as I do. Here's a small quote by Sahin, "We made a lot of compromises in creating this version in hopes of creating a self-sufficient device. We know actually that it can be made 100 times more powerful by solving a number of problems."
Reference (http://www.technologyreview.com/news/538571/scientists-capture-the-energy-of-evaporation-to-drive-tiny-engines/)
Gravock
This video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msx-EqiLBS0) presents highlights from the publication "Spore‐Based Water‐Resistant Water‐Responsive Actuators with High Power Density" at the following link: https://doi.org/10.1002/admt.201800596 (https://doi.org/10.1002/admt.201800596)
As a result, it is possible to demonstrate spore‐based actuators driven directly with liquid water,
which increases the actuation speed and power by nearly 100‐fold!
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on July 13, 2019, 12:19:08 AM
This video presents highlights from the publication "Spore‐Based Water‐Resistant Water‐Responsive Actuators with High Power Density" at the following link: https://doi.org/10.1002/admt.201800596 (https://doi.org/10.1002/admt.201800596)
As a result, it is possible to demonstrate spore‐based actuators driven directly with liquid water, which increases the actuation speed and power by nearly 100‐fold!
Gravock
Wow that is truly one of the most impressive things I have seen on here. This is kind of like the Maxwell demon where the water in this case acts as the demon. The potential of this is huge. And that video is even more impressive, the material reacts almost immediately and resets pretty fast as well. I wonder how easy it is to replicate this is, it seems nothing fancy is being used or that can't be bought off the shelf.
Especially this part is very interesting:
Quotewe estimate the specific power of spore-based actuators presented here to be between 3.03 and 5.03 kW/kg. These values are approximately two orders of magnitude higher than mammalian skeletal muscle, which falls between 50 (typical) and 284 W/kg.
The fact that such a simple and especially macroscopic device can generate such huge forces is quite impressive.
Full paper attached.
Thanks for the full paper Broli. IMO, this is the most promising thread on this forum in regards to creating a self-sustaining device! A 100 fold increase in power density is huge and is a game changer!
Gravock
It is truly remarkable ...thanks for sharing
How could the layman experiment ?
Chet
Quote from: ramset on July 20, 2019, 06:33:30 AM
It is truly remarkable ...thanks for sharing
How could the layman experiment ?
Chet
I now have most of what is needed to start experimenting. I have the spores (pro-biotics in spore form), the UV lamp, the UV curing gel (finger nail polish), extra-strength breathe right strips, and an ultrasonic humidifier. The ultrasonic humidifier is for testing purposes only. This is somewhat quick and dirty...
Gravock
Thank you In my part of the world there are plenty of Alma mater's of Columbia around !could perhaps get more details ?I have found persons at Universities here... at the "Lab bench" level or the ones actually doing the work...most approachable ..and willing to discuss !
However If you have enuff to replicate or experiment ??
can you help get others up to speed on your path ?
at almost twice the energy density [or work done] of the Human Muscle..and we can play with this ???
Pinch me I must be dreaming !!
with gratitude and respect Chet K
Looks promising for all sorts of applications, even outside our energy interests.
How about a super lightweight sweat powered exoskeleton for the disabled?
....deleted
Gravock
I'm done posting anything on the internet after this post. Most are only leaching information off the internet for their own personal benefit and personal gain. Science is fudging the results of their experiments in order to gain or to continue to receive grants or financial aid from investors. Mankind is in a very sad state of being. What a way to be.
Gravock
Sir
Here on the few open source forums are persons dedicated to living by example , trying to share
Anything of value,whenever possible!
Please reconsider!
Our world truly needs all the help it can get,and your post was a genuine attempt
To offer help !
I did read your comments and it truly was intriguing!
Respectfully
Chet K
Gravock
Not sure if you are aware
This forum offers builders bench to help focus content towards productive research
And results
Thanks for sending your above edited post again
Repost
A 100-fold Increase in the actuation speed and power of the evaporation driven system has already been achieved by using water directly instead of evaporation! Here's a https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNxkhYjtyY (http://[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNxkhYjtyY)]video showing how to increase the evaporation rate 5 times faster. We can now use the water directly and the evaporation rate that is 5 times faster in a hybrid evaporation/water driven system. This is HUGE and will dramatically increase the power and efficiency of the water/evaporation driven system! The floating photo-thermal material used to increase the evaporation rate 5 times faster can generate steam on its upper surface with greater than 90% solar energy conversion efficiency! Greater than 90% energy conversion efficiency can be realized by using concentrated solar energy! This is a highly efficient low cost solar-steam generation system. However, a solar-steam powered multi-fuel home generator can be built with over 100% efficiency when utilizing solar power and the hybrid evaporation/water driven system!
Robert Murray-Smith is building a https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2CZ1YMZ5_0 (http://[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2CZ1YMZ5_0)]DIY Multi Fuel Home Generator (Part 1). Here's Part 2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcPlmaAlCr8 (http://[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcPlmaAlCr8)]Changing One Type of Engine Into Another Type of Engine) of the DIY Generator build. This generator is basically a steam powered generator using a rocket stove that can run on many different types of fuel, such as solar, kerosene, diesel, gas, natural gas, propane, syngas, waste oil, vegetable oil, wood, etc. Steam engines and turbines operate on the Rankine cycle which has a maximum Carnot efficiency of 63% for practical engines, with steam turbine power plants able to achieve efficiency in the mid 40% range. The rocket stove can be used during times where solar power isn't optimal for the solar-steam powered multi-fuel home generator.
Stop chasing the wind and start building this Multi-Fuel Solar-Steam Power Generator that can be used to power your home at extremely low costs.
Gravock
End
This is a truly a great open source topic !
And One that can inspire ..please consider a moderated board !
Respectfully
Chet K
PS
Thanks again for sending the info .... Amazing to consider the possibilities!
Edit for more info from OP
would use the Double Cylindrical Point Focus Principle (DCPF) to concentrate the solar energy to a focal point. Below is a description of a video on the "Double Cylindrical Point Focus principle" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYzgYI9_h6s) discovered in 1976. Here's a detailed PDF publication on the "Double Cylindrical Point Focus Principle" (http://kmr.nada.kth.se/papers/Manuscripts/PointFocus-report-1977/PointFocus.pdf) which may help with the proper dimensions of the two mirrors. MirrorPlex, mirrored plexi-glass, or thin plastic mirror sheets can bend. Also, any material which can bend could be covered with reflective tape, mylar foil, etc. Mirror window film for windows can be found at Lowes or Home Depot. It's similar to window tint on a car, but reflective like a mirror. This window film blocks 79% of the suns heat, so it's a good reflective material that is cheap and easy to apply.
The parabola has the well-known property of reflecting axis-parallel rays to a point YouTube - Parabola-Focal-Ray-Reflect (http://tinyurl.com/6aqpxa). If we rotate the parabola around its axis, we create a parabolic disc, which has the well-known property of reflecting parallel rays (= planar wave-fronts) that are incident along the axis direction of the disc to a point. An animation that shows this process is available at YouTube - Parabolic Disc PointFocus (http://tinyurl.com/57adll). We can avoid the "astronomical costs" associated with creating (= casting) a large parabolic disc by bending two flat mirror sheets in the shape of parabolic cylinders to create an exact point focus. This is due to the:
Double Cylindrical Point Focus principle:
If the focal line of the first cylinder is identical to the generating line of the parabola that is the intersection of the second cylinder with a plane perpendicular to its axis, then the incoming rays will be reflected to a perfect point. For a proof of the DCPF principle, see Point Focus Proof (https://kmr.dialectica.se/files/pointfocus/PointFocus/Pointfocus-proof.jpg) and for an animation see YouTube - Double-Cylindrical PointFocus - animation (http://tinyurl.com/57s3qg). The DCPF principle was discovered on November 16, 1976 by Ambjörn Naeve, See Point Focus Discovery (https://kmr.dialectica.se/files/pointfocus/PointFocus/PointFocus-Discovery.jpg), and is demonstrated in the earlier video by Tomas Elofsson, Gusum, Sweden, in July 1989.
Besides being easier than the ordinary parabolic disc to build in large sizes (avoiding "astronomical costs"), the DCPF has the advantage that the focal point can be placed outside of the solar influx area, where it is freely available to do work. See Focal Point Outside Solar Influx Area (https://kmr.dialectica.se/files/pointfocus/PointFocus/PointFocus-wheelbarrel.jpg). The DCPF also has the advantage that the number of planar approximator strips of fixed width grows LINEARLY with the overall size (since one dimension is unaffected) instead of QUADRATICALLY, as with an ordinary parabolic disc. For a comparison, see YouTube - The Archimedes Death Ray Lesson (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0I3e_NkXNC0j).
Tuning the primary mirror: http://tinyurl.com/5eqz3b (http://tinyurl.com/5eqz3b).
Tuning the secondary mirror: http://tinyurl.com/6qt5ud (http://tinyurl.com/6qt5ud).
Using these DC Point Focusing mirrors, we have melted limestone (2560 deg C) in free air. See http://tinyurl.com/6jsfd4 (http://tinyurl.com/6jsfd4). A VR-based lecture from October 2000 can be found at YouTube - CyberMath: PointFocus (http://tinyurl.com/5hby74). For the full story behind the DC PointFocus, see PointFocus (http://kmr.nada.kth.se/wiki/Main/PointFocus)
Simple and Efficient Solar Tracking
DIY Solar Tracking System Inspired by NASA (Parker Solar Probe) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL9PcGu_xrA)
The above video demonstrates a simple autonomous solar tracking system that can be used with solar panels, parabolic mirrors, or the DCPF method to improve their performance in producing renewable energy. The demonstrated system uses two 10rpm, 6v geared electric motors, and four 5v, 0.6w solar panels connected in a configuration that allows the motors to constantly move the panels into shade. The cost of the electronics was about $10, and could easily be scaled up or down as necessary for a variety of solar applications.
End quote
I see a few of the videos did not link clearly
Did not get back in time to modify above post ( it timed out )
5 times faster technique
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNxkhYjtyY (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNxkhYjtyY)
And Robert Murray Smith multifuel home generator ( a two vid series
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2CZ1YMZ5_0 (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2CZ1YMZ5_0)
Excellent information towards experiments here !
Respectfully
Chet