Osmotic Power
Although the research is still in its infancy, if I was to give an award to a technology with the most potential to bring about massive change it is this.I doubt if it can achieve the the 1MW per square meter due to material and conductor issue,s but even 1000th of that power output would be impressive. Using solar desalination the water can be reused. This is real water power[/font]
http://revolution-green.com/electricity-generated-water-salt-three-atoms-thick-membrane/
Quote from: markdansie on July 14, 2016, 09:48:33 AM
Osmotic Power
Although the research is still in its infancy, if I was to give an award to a technology with the most potential to bring about massive change it is this.I doubt if it can achieve the the 1MW per square meter due to material and conductor issue,s but even 1000th of that power output would be impressive. Using solar desalination the water can be reused. This is real water power[/font]
http://revolution-green.com/electricity-generated-water-salt-three-atoms-thick-membrane/
Well that is one of the best i have heard of in a long time.
Even at 1kw an !square! meter,being so slim,you could put 10 modules together for a 1 cubic meter cell,and still put out 10kw.
Im sure i could find space for that on the side of my home.
I have a small desalination plant at home that was given to me by my boss,when he fitted the larger one to his boat. It will desalinate 1 ltr of sea water a minute,and only uses 480 watts to do it.
I see a looped system here ;)
Now,where to get some of that material Mark?.
Brad
Quote from: tinman on July 14, 2016, 07:40:12 PM
Well that is one of the best i have heard of in a long time.
Even at 1kw an !square! meter,being so slim,you could put 10 modules together for a 1 cubic meter cell,and still put out 10kw.
Im sure i could find space for that on the side of my home.
I have a small desalination plant at home that was given to me by my boss,when he fitted the larger one to his boat. It will desalinate 1 ltr of sea water a minute,and only uses 480 watts to do it.
I see a looped system here ;)
Now,where to get some of that material Mark?.
Brad
I think they are still figuring out how to mass produce it with consistency. The material itself is cheap.
Some big questions remain like how long will the material last, how much maintenance etc.
It does open the way for a lot of research into other materials and production methods
Exciting times we live in
Mark
I think the tinman is over excitable, I reckon it is something to be deployed
where a river meets the ocean. Perhaps the tinman has a river and an ocean???
John.
http://hightechafrica.blogspot.pt/2012/04/pressure-retarded-osmosis-power.html
https://www.google.pt/search?client=opera&q=norway+osmosis+salt+sweetwater&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 (https://www.google.pt/search?client=opera&q=norway+osmosis+salt+sweetwater&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8)
"Statkraft estimates it spent over ten years and more than 100 million kroner (about $12 million USD) in research funds to help develop one of these techniques, pressure retarded osmosis (PRO), in the prototype facility at Tofte."
Much money,many days research : only for the functional prototype !
"According to Friso Sikkema, senior specialist in power generation and renewables at DNV Kema, the amount of potential energy contained in such processes is 'substantial'. The osmotic energy contained in 1 m³ of seawater amounts to around 0.75 kWh."
Quote from: lancaIV on July 16, 2016, 07:21:11 AM
http://hightechafrica.blogspot.pt/2012/04/pressure-retarded-osmosis-power.html (http://hightechafrica.blogspot.pt/2012/04/pressure-retarded-osmosis-power.html)
https://www.google.pt/search?client=opera&q=norway+osmosis+salt+sweetwater&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 (https://www.google.pt/search?client=opera&q=norway+osmosis+salt+sweetwater&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8)
"Statkraft estimates it spent over ten years and more than 100 million kroner (about $12 million USD) in research funds to help develop one of these techniques, pressure retarded osmosis (PRO), in the prototype facility at Tofte."
Much money,many days research : only for the functional prototype !
"According to Friso Sikkema, senior specialist in power generation and renewables at DNV Kema, the amount of potential energy contained in such processes is 'substantial'. The osmotic energy contained in 1 m³ of seawater amounts to around 0.75 kWh."
Thanks for the information.
I think this is where their calculations fall down given the power source is less than 1 kWh per cubic meter or ton of water. You can only extract what the power source allows. Like good triple junction solar cells can pump out kilowatts per square meter if the solar source is multiplied in intensity
Kind Regards
Quote from: lancaIV on July 16, 2016, 07:21:11 AM
http://hightechafrica.blogspot.pt/2012/04/pressure-retarded-osmosis-power.html
https://www.google.pt/search?client=opera&q=norway+osmosis+salt+sweetwater&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 (https://www.google.pt/search?client=opera&q=norway+osmosis+salt+sweetwater&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8)
"Statkraft estimates it spent over ten years and more than 100 million kroner (about $12 million USD) in research funds to help develop one of these techniques, pressure retarded osmosis (PRO), in the prototype facility at Tofte."
Much money,many days research : only for the functional prototype !
"According to Friso Sikkema, senior specialist in power generation and renewables at DNV Kema, the amount of potential energy contained in such processes is 'substantial'. The osmotic energy contained in 1 m³ of seawater amounts to around 0.75 kWh."
You are referring to pressure retarded osmosis,where as Mark is referring to electrodialysis-two very different systems.
This new membrane that the guys Mark linked to,is far more efficient than the organic ones used today in the electrodialysis process. I think they were talking in Megawatts of power per square meter,not 0.75 kWh per cubic meter as with pressure retarded osmosis.
Quote: In reversed electrodialysis a salt solution and fresh water are let through a stack of alternating cation and anion exchange membranes. The chemical potential difference between salt and fresh water generates a voltage over each membrane and the total potential of the system is the sum of the potential differences over all membranes. It is important to remember that the process works through difference in ion concentration instead of an electric field, which has implications for the type of membrane needed.
So electrodialysis(the one Mark has posted) produces electricity via ION exchange-much like a fuel cell,where as pressure retarded osmosis creates a pressure that can be used to drive a turbine to produce power.
Brad
Read on a bit more and see the natural battery, there they mention
5 million square metres and in reality you'd probably need to at least
double that!
Quote from: tinman on July 17, 2016, 09:46:30 AM
You are referring to pressure retarded osmosis,where as Mark is referring to electrodialysis-two very different systems.
This new membrane that the guys Mark linked to,is far more efficient than the organic ones used today in the electrodialysis process. I think they were talking in Megawatts of power per square meter,not 0.75 kWh per cubic meter as with pressure retarded osmosis.
Quote: In reversed electrodialysis a salt solution and fresh water are let through a stack of alternating cation and anion exchange membranes. The chemical potential difference between salt and fresh water generates a voltage over each membrane and the total potential of the system is the sum of the potential differences over all membranes. It is important to remember that the process works through difference in ion concentration instead of an electric field, which has implications for the type of membrane needed.
So electrodialysis(the one Mark has posted) produces electricity via ION exchange-much like a fuel cell,where as pressure retarded osmosis creates a pressure that can be used to drive a turbine to produce power.
Brad
Probably !
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature18593.html (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature18593.html)
Making use of the osmotic pressure difference between fresh water and seawater is an attractive, renewable and clean way to generate power and is known as 'blue energy'. Another electrokinetic phenomenon, called the streaming potential, occurs when an electrolyte is driven through narrow pores either by a pressure gradient or by an osmotic potential resulting from a salt concentration gradient. For this task, membranes made of two-dimensional materials are expected to be the most efficient, because water transport through a membrane scales inversely with membrane thickness
Makes me think the process could work the same way but in reverse using a simple reverse osmosis filter.
One could force saltwater through the filter and cause a charge difference to accumulate.
lumen,three atomic layers level ! Angstroem precision !
This membran works like a thermionic cell array .
Compare this membran with Charles M. Brown "Thermal Electric Chip" membran
100.000.000.000 diodes per sqcm
http://peswiki.com/directory:charles-m-browns-thermal-electric-chip
Quote from: lancaIV on July 17, 2016, 02:52:17 PM
lumen,three atomic layers level ! Angstroem precision !
This membran works like a thermionic cell array .
Compare this membran with Charles M. Brown "Thermal Electric Chip" membran
100.000.000.000 diodes per sqcm
http://peswiki.com/directory:charles-m-browns-thermal-electric-chip
That's always been an interesting idea, but there are several problems where the band gap of each 100,000,000,000 diodes must be exactly the same and it must be very small for a single excited electron to traverse the gap.
One could apply a bias voltage to effectively lower the band gap but again the diodes would all need to be exactly the same or your bias voltage would leak through the diode with the smallest gap and start costing power instead of producing it.
Quote from: lumen on July 17, 2016, 07:10:22 PM
That's always been an interesting idea, but there are several problems where the band gap of each 100,000,000,000 diodes must be exactly the same and it must be very small for a single excited electron to traverse the gap.
One could apply a bias voltage to effectively lower the band gap but again the diodes would all need to be exactly the same or your bias voltage would leak through the diode with the smallest gap and start costing power instead of producing it.
The question is-what could we use as a membrane that would allow the flow of ions,but not the water molecules?-when referring to the system used described in Marks original post.
What waterproof material would allow for ion flow,and is negatively charged?
Brad
I thought a simple osmosis filter membrane like for your faucet.
It might work by increasing the salt in one side as only water can get through.
As the ions increase on one side a charge should also develop, the effect would be the same but from the opposite condition.
Or the old experiment with a simple sheet of sandwich wrap will stop water flow but salt ions will pass through it.
Fill a glass half full of fresh water and place a layer of sandwich wrap in the glass so you can fill the glass full with salt water and it is separated with the plastic sheet.
After an hour you can remove the plastic wrap without losing any salt water and yet the fresh water will taste salty. (osmosis)
tinman put your brain into gear. Where can I get this material?
Think about it,a decent fart would be about three atoms thick.
A million watts is about 1,300 horsepower. Say your cell is 2v
that would be 500,000 amps.
John.
molybdaen disulfit, specific density: 5,03 gr/qcm
1sqm= 10000 sqcm x 3 atomic layers (estimation: 3nm)
1nm= 1/1000000000 mtr. or 1/10000000 cm
ergo 10000 sqcm x 3/10000000 cm = 3/1000 qcm membran volume per sqm
5,03 ge/qcm x 3/1000 = 0,01509 gr/sqm membran
1 MW : 0,01509 gr : 66 MW per Gram molybdaen disulfit power output
Oh how I miss MarkE. He would have known all about this stuff.
All I can do is use gut instinct and good old Google.
Anyways methinks what about looking up desalination because
I want to know how much energy there is in saline. So,I come
up with a figure of 3.5 watt hours litre to the minus one.
John.
There we go,according to good old Keelynet a saltwater powered car goes 1,000 km
on a couple of tanks of brine.
John.
It is an interesting proposition and nano-technology is going to change the world. In the big picture this energy technology is effectively Maxwell's Demon whereby something very small such as the membrane structure "filters" out electrical energy from matter. Energy is generally locked into matter because of the scale of the interactions at that level however when the method of extraction also acts at that level then we can access this energy.
It's important to keep our eye on the potential of these technologies, salt water and fresh water appear to have no usable energy to the layman... it's just plain old water. Then we add a catalyst to exploit the difference in internal energy states and wala we have an abundance of usable energy from plain old water. What about plain old air or plain old Earth or any other forms of matter or Energy we have completely taken for granted?.
We are at the start of the next industrial revolution in Energy when we stop gathering and burning stuff like cavemen and access usable energy directly from the environment. So why not a device sitting on our table which "filters" out energy from the environment just like this technology "filters" out energy from salt water/fresh water?. The technologies are very similar in my opinion and it's simply a matter of viewing the problem from the proper perspective. The fact is 20 years ago nobody would have predicted we could extract usable energy from salt water and fresh water however now we are and these new technologies are only the tip of a very large iceberg.
AC
I have done some simple testing and it is easier than thought to make a simple concentration cell.
Using Epson salt and some thin sandwich wrap for the membrane, a simple gradient cell produces about 250mv.
Just place some aluminum foil tape on the bottom of a plastic bowl and partially fill with clean water (tap water is reasonably conductive already)
Then cover with the sandwich wrap (Polyethylene) and cover with brine.
Add another aluminum electrode to the brine and connect a meter.
If you look around the net a bit, this is very common knowledge.
You could use sunlight to separate fresh water form the brine and return to the cell to generate power in an endless loop.
Found this being covered by Marketwatch here: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/this-breakthrough-in-blue-energy-could-change-the-world-2016-08-04
M.
Beside Carbon,Graphit,Graphene,CNT : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molybdenum_disulfide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molybdenum_disulfide)
http://inhabitat.com/mit-developing-solar-energy-funnels-that-could-harvest-more-energy-from-sunlight/ (http://inhabitat.com/mit-developing-solar-energy-funnels-that-could-harvest-more-energy-from-sunlight/)
MoS2 is a natural semiconductor and it has a special characteristic called bandgap that allows it to be converted into solar cells or integrated circuits. This characteristic, along with the solar funnel, gives this material the ability to respond to different colors of light in ways that silicon (http://inhabitat.com/natcore-designs-low-cost-absolute-black-silicon-solar-cell-that-is-10x-less-reflective-than-standard-cells/) simply can't. Qian says that in silicon-based organic solar cells, "it's a diffusion process and it's very inefficient." But a solar funnel on MoS2 creates a focused "collection site [at the film's center], which should be more efficient for charge collection."
molybdaen-membran output credibility:
Charles Brown: 100.000.000.000 diodes per sqcm x 10000 = 1 sqm
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=US&NR=5356484A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=3&date=19941018&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=US&NR=5356484A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=3&date=19941018&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP)
1 diode output :
By way of example, an input signal of 6 microwatts with a bandwidth of 1 gigahertz is applied to diode 20 either as thermal energy or electric energy, and thermal energy is applied to diode 10. A signal-to-noise ration of 60 dB is obtained for the input signal for a temperature Tc of the cold diode 20 of 300 DEG K. For a temperature Tr of hot electrons in diode 10 of 6000 DEG K., the amplification of the input signal is 26 dB, which gives an output signal of 2.4 milliwatts. The amplified output signal also has a 60 dB signal-to-noise ratio.
100 billions x ( 10000 x 2,4 mW ) per sqm
diodes sqm in sqcm output per diode
~ 2,40 trillion W per sqm (theoretical)
240 million W per sqcm (theoretical)
2,4 million W per sqmm , fingertip scale (theoretical)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
reliable,2015 lab standart :
http://www.csmantech.org/Digests/2015/abstracts/101R-0.15um%20GaN%20MMIC%20Manufacturing%20Technology%20for%202-50%20GHz%20Power%20Applications.pdf (http://www.csmantech.org/Digests/2015/abstracts/101R-0.15um%20GaN%20MMIC%20Manufacturing%20Technology%20for%202-50%20GHz%20Power%20Applications.pdf)
3-8 W level
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
this will become concentrated power converter level -20 000 suns and more ,
probably also with Fermidiods/Diads : estimation 2035 +
transistor ,diodes,holes,gates,dots and circuit velocity
industrial density numbers evolution
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor_count (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor_count)
Cell Broadband Engine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_Broadband_Engine): (2006) 9 cores per chip, 234 million transistors per chip.[63] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor_count#cite_note-63)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/2381153_Evaluation_of_Transistor_Densities_for_Submicronic_CMOS_Technologies)
/2381153_Evaluation_of_Transistor_Densities_for_Submicronic_CMOS_Technologies (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/2381153_Evaluation_of_Transistor_Densities_for_Submicronic_CMOS_Technologies)
Analyze the trends in terms of transistor area and transistor count for the next generation ofintegrated circuits. For example, applying twice a shrinking factor 0.7 over the 0.18 µm process results in transistors with l=0.08 µm, with 1,000,000 transistors per square millimeter. Moreover,if it is possible to have an IC with 10 cm2, we will have a circuit with 1 billion transistors!
http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/pdf/foundry/mark-bohr-2014-idf-presentation.pdf (http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/pdf/foundry/mark-bohr-2014-idf-presentation.pdf)
1,3 billion transistors on 82 sqmm
Quote from: lancaIV on August 22, 2016, 01:23:04 PM
molybdaen-membran output credibility:
Charles Brown: 100.000.000.000 diodes per sqcm x 10000 = 1 sqm
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=US&NR=5356484A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=3&date=19941018&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=US&NR=5356484A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=3&date=19941018&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP)
1 diode output :
By way of example, an input signal of 6 microwatts with a bandwidth of 1 gigahertz is applied to diode 20 either as thermal energy or electric energy, and thermal energy is applied to diode 10. A signal-to-noise ration of 60 dB is obtained for the input signal for a temperature Tc of the cold diode 20 of 300 DEG K. For a temperature Tr of hot electrons in diode 10 of 6000 DEG K., the amplification of the input signal is 26 dB, which gives an output signal of 2.4 milliwatts. The amplified output signal also has a 60 dB signal-to-noise ratio.
100 billions x ( 10000 x 2,4 mW ) per sqm
diodes sqm in sqcm output per diode
~ 2,40 trillion W per sqm (theoretical)
240 million W per sqcm (theoretical)
2,4 million W per sqmm , fingertip scale (theoretical)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
reliable,2015 lab standart :
http://www.csmantech.org/Digests/2015/abstracts/101R-0.15um%20GaN%20MMIC%20Manufacturing%20Technology%20for%202-50%20GHz%20Power%20Applications.pdf (http://www.csmantech.org/Digests/2015/abstracts/101R-0.15um%20GaN%20MMIC%20Manufacturing%20Technology%20for%202-50%20GHz%20Power%20Applications.pdf)
3-8 W level
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
this will become concentrated power converter level -20 000 suns and more ,
probably also with Fermidiods/Diads : estimation 2035 +
transistor ,diodes,holes,gates,dots and circuit velocity
industrial density numbers evolution
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor_count (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor_count)
Cell Broadband Engine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_Broadband_Engine): (2006) 9 cores per chip, 234 million transistors per chip.[63] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor_count#cite_note-63)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/2381153_Evaluation_of_Transistor_Densities_for_Submicronic_CMOS_Technologies)
/2381153_Evaluation_of_Transistor_Densities_for_Submicronic_CMOS_Technologies (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/2381153_Evaluation_of_Transistor_Densities_for_Submicronic_CMOS_Technologies)
Analyze the trends in terms of transistor area and transistor count for the next generation ofintegrated circuits. For example, applying twice a shrinking factor 0.7 over the 0.18 µm process results in transistors with l=0.08 µm, with 1,000,000 transistors per square millimeter. Moreover,if it is possible to have an IC with 10 cm2, we will have a circuit with 1 billion transistors!
http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/pdf/foundry/mark-bohr-2014-idf-presentation.pdf (http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/pdf/foundry/mark-bohr-2014-idf-presentation.pdf)
1,3 billion transistors on 82 sqmm
https://www.google.com/search?q=novasolix&rlz=1C1AVFC_enPT797PT797&oq=novasolix&aqs=chrome..69i57.5158j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 (https://www.google.com/search?q=novasolix&rlz=1C1AVFC_enPT797PT797&oq=novasolix&aqs=chrome..69i57.5158j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)
http://sustainableskies.org/sas-2019-larry-cooke-novasolix/ (http://sustainableskies.org/sas-2019-larry-cooke-novasolix/)
Because NovaSolix collectors place "roughly one million tiny radio receivers per square inch, they are able to retrieve frequencies "from low infrared through visible light and up into the ultraviolet." Gathering the full spectrum enables conversion of weak light to small amounts of power. A currently real 40-percent efficiency with a theoretical limit of 90 percent enables smaller, lighter panels to generate 400 Watts per square meter to 900 Watts per square meter.
The NovaSolix approach places roughly one trillion tiny radio receivers (rectennas) per square inch. Unlike PV cells, the NS cells are compatible with a wide range of frequencies from low infrared through visible light and up into the ultraviolet.
https://overunity.com/18471/29-april-2020-poste-criste/msg545792/#new (https://overunity.com/18471/29-april-2020-poste-criste/msg545792/#new) #26
Die Kombination aus Fritter, Klöppel, Telegrafenrelais und Morseschreiber ermöglichte in der Anfangszeit der Funktechnik (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funktechnik), die damals sogenannten ,,drahtlosen (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drahtlos) Telegramme (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telegramm) " automatisch aufzuzeichnen.
Let us google translate this sentence : The combination of fritter, clapper, telegraph relay and Morse recorder made it possible in the early days of radio technology to automatically record the so-called "wireless telegrams" at the time
This is the ancient "receiver" standart,macro ! " one trillion tiny radio receivers (rectennas) per square inch "
thousand,x 1000 =million,x 1000 = billion,x 1000 =trillion
https://patents.google.com/patent/EP2144298A2/en (https://patents.google.com/patent/EP2144298A2/en) applyable
BTW:
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=US&NR=5356484A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=3&date=19941018&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=US&NR=5356484A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=3&date=19941018&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP)
1 diode output by diode inputBy way of example, an input signal of 6 microwatts with a bandwidth of 1 gigahertz is applied to diode 20 either as thermal energy or electric energy, and thermal energy is applied to diode 10. A signal-to-noise ration of 60 dB is obtained for the input signal for a temperature Tc of the cold diode 20 of 300 DEG K. For a temperature Tr of hot electrons in diode 10 of 6000 DEG K., the amplification of the input signal is 26 dB, which gives an output signal of 2.4 milliwatts. The amplified output signal also has a 60 dB signal-to-noise ratio.
2,4 milliwatts/6 mikrowatts = ? 2,4 milliwatts/0,006 milliwatts = ? quantum mechanical heat pump C.O.P.
1 diode = 1 nano heat pump or 1 nano receiver :) also called "
dots"
https://www.google.com/search?q=paintable+solar+dots&rlz=1C1AVFC_enPT797PT797&oq=paintable+solar+dots&aqs=chrome..69i57.10844j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 (https://www.google.com/search?q=paintable+solar+dots&rlz=1C1AVFC_enPT797PT797&oq=paintable+solar+dots&aqs=chrome..69i57.10844j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)