My girlfriend sent me a link to this National Geographic Magazine contest. I thought about it for a while but I didn't feel I had enough time to apply, then the deadline passed, then I took another look at it a few weeks later and saw the deadline had been extended. I racked my brains trying to figure out how to explain my idea in a 60 second video.
Anyway I got something in just before the deadline. I would genuinely appreciate anyone logging in and posting questions or comments as that would give me a chance to cover some areas that I couldn't include in the video.
Here is the link if anyone here is interested. It could mean $25,000 going towards building a prototype engine and demonstrating an untapped energy source.
"The Air Juicer" - An Untapped Renewable Energy Resource - http://www.natgeochasinggenius.com/video/2668 (http://www.natgeochasinggenius.com/video/2668)
I've previously discussed this idea at some length in this forum:
http://overunity.com/13159/teslas-ambient-heat-engine-theory-right-or-wrong (http://overunity.com/13159/teslas-ambient-heat-engine-theory-right-or-wrong)
Have you checked out Tripler/Wainwright? Interesting reading. It may be difficult, but I don't see why an ambient heat engine can't be made. According to Wainwright, we should be able to make an engine that compresses and cools air to use as a fuel. Essentially the same as Tesla's mechanical oscillator.
Do you mean Tripler of Liquid Air fame? https://books.google.com/books/about/Liquid_Air.html?id=t65FAQAAMAAJ (https://books.google.com/books/about/Liquid_Air.html?id=t65FAQAAMAAJ)
Not sure about Wainwright. Can you provide a specific reference? Book Title?
I'm certainly familiar with Tesla. His article "The Problem of Increasing Human Energy" from Century Magazine 1900 in particular: http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/1900-06-00.htm (http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/1900-06-00.htm)
But actually I hit upon the idea while designing a solar Stirling Engine for a government contractor friend years ago. Those big Solar Stirling engines with the parabolic dish. He wanted to go into business for himself manufacturing small ones for homeowners. Those big engines they had out in the desert had some kind of cooling. Air conditioning to keep them from overheating under no-load conditions.
Anyway he told me that they found that those experimental engines with the air conditioning kept running at night. Without any sun. I thought that wasa what he told me but I couldn't understand what he meant and just puzzled over it.
Anyway so I figured incorporating a cooling system of some sort on the design would be a good idea but wasn't exactly sure why.
BTW I think that they took all those experimental engines that kept running without sunshine at night down. Wonder why?
Anyway I heard about Air-Cycle heat pumps / cold air machines. One of the earliest kinds of air conditioning using compressed air. No Freon. No CFC's, just plain old air - compressed and cooled and then expanded. Turns out that this works so well, it is TOO cold for domestic freezers. You need food refrigerated or frozen not cryogenicly preserved LOL. But I thought this would be the perfect cooling system for a Stirling Engine where the big temperature differential can be utilized. The colder the better. Why no -250 more or less?
So I started working on combining Stirling hot air engines with air cycle refrigeration.
I've been working on machinery all my life and was rather good at designing and running engines in visualization. In my mind, in great detail.
Well while working on this I had a combo Stirling/Air-Cycle generator running in my mind, on this parabolic dish. It always seemed like the dish was concentrating TOO MUCH heat. So I kept reducing it in size.
Suddenly one day I was running one of these machines in my mind and came to the shocking realization that it had gotten late and the sun had gone down but the engine was still going.
See, I was aiming for efficiency, and I saw a lot of heat boiling off the focal point. so I had the air cycle system drawing in hot air from the focal point, compressing that, delivering it to the Stirling, Then cooling the pipes with fans to get rid of the excess heat, (There always seemed to be excess heat!) then expanded the air through a turbine on the same driveshaft as the engine and generator. Then sent the cryo-cold turbo-expanded air back to the engine. The cold side was always way below ambient temperature with this arangement, so why wouldn't it keep running all night.
I told my contractor friend about my discovery. He contacted me a few days later, said that he talked to some people and that my idea was impossible and he scraped the whole project. I was like WHAT ARE YOU CRAZY!?!?!?!
Now I couldn't get it out of my head. So I started researching the actual feasibility of this idea. That's when I came across Tesla's article and Tripler's "Surplusage" and lots of other information. I was certainly not the first to stumble across this. Tesla was working on it over 100 years ago.
I really think it was supposed to be the energy SOURCE for his famous towers. That was only a wireless DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM for his "Self Acting" generator that ran on heat from compressed air.
That book is a great find, thanks for sharing. Yeah, I was referring to Charles Tripler, but only knew him by the patents list on Rex, http://www.rexresearch.com/tripler/tripler.htm
The writings of Wainwright show a different process than Tripler. Apparently Wainwright realized that a gas could be used as a fuel in a simple manner. To quote him,
QuoteAnd it will be observed that; such cycle absorbs heat from an external source, at a constant temperature; converts all of this heat into available dynamic energy; and does not discharge any heat to an external source.
His books about the fallacy of the second law of thermodynamics are interesting, but I get lost on the fluid jargon.
I was not at all aware of the Wainwright material. I'm just downloading and beginning to read the first PDF. Incredible!
You might be interested also in this material, if you haven't already come across it elsewhere. It is an old Stock offering from the Standard Power Company, from around that same time period early 1900's.
As far as I know this copy someone sent to me is the last copy in existence. At least I've been unable to locate any other reference to any such booklet or the Standard Power Company.
http://peoplesresearchcenter.com/james_place/standard_power_company.html
The booklet is titled: "Perpetual Motion The Standard Power Co." and contains a section or additional booklet titled "Continuous Power The Natural Result of Converting Heat Into Work in an Insulated Expansion Engine at Temperatures Below the Normal of the Atmosphere by J.F. Place"
It carries the date of 1903. It is very fragile. I find no mention of or reference to Wainwright therein though.
This time period seems like it was bursting at the seams with this kind of documentation (at the time), though the traces have practically vanished away today. (If not for the internet).
Tesla mentioned in a letter to the publisher that his 1900 article in century magazine caused both him and the publisher a world of trouble: "...my article which has given great trouble to you and infinitely more to me."
What trouble I wonder did the publication of his article cause?
I wanted to mention that the National Geographic Website hosting my Idea submission has been dysfunctional for the past few days. Almost from the first moment the idea went live, so posting comments was not possible. Seems though that it has just gotten back up and running again:
http://www.natgeochasinggenius.com/video/2668 (http://www.natgeochasinggenius.com/video/2668)
Thanks for the link, I'll have to get it later as I'm on an iPhone now. As far as Nat. Geo. goes, good luck. I don't want to say it, but you'll probably not get into the top 4. I'm biased when it comes to mainstream organizations, so I don't put any faith into their public selecting process. You'll probably lose to something ridiculous and politically motivated, like reducing global warming or offsetting carbon footprints. ::) People aren't interested in real technology, they're interested in feel good technology. You'd probably have better luck if you said you'd make ice and deliver it the North Pole to save the polar bears.
From what I've seen on there, there are actually quite a few very good ideas on there that I think are quite worthy of support. I originally joined because I've always had a great deal of respect and admiration for National Geographic in the past. I learned recently however that it is no longer a Non-Profit organization but a for profit merged with FOX. (Rupert Murdock). Reading these articles (while browsing, trying to find some way to let them know their website was not working), caused me to wonder why National Geographic is drift-netting for intellectual property.
Going back and reading the rules and terms of service I'm now wondering what I've gotten myself into.
https://actions.sumofus.org/a/murdoch-national-geographic
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/nov/14/how-fox-ate-national-geographic
In particular, under "Your Proprietary Rights in and License to Your User Content" sounds like by simply entering the contest one has... well read it for yourself:
Quote
Additionally, National Geographic is free to use any ideas, concepts, know-how, or techniques contained within such User Content for any purpose including, but not limited to, developing, manufacturing, marketing and providing commercial products and services, including NG Services. National Geographic's use of such User Content shall not require any further notice or attribution to you and such use shall be without the requirement of any permission from or any payment to you or any other person or entity. You hereby appoint National Geographic as your agent with full authority to execute any document or take any action, National Geographic may consider appropriate in order to confirm the rights granted by you to National Geographic in this Agreement.
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/community/terms/
This idea however is at least 100 years old. I've been posting about it for at lest a decade myself. I don't think that any entity can get exclusive rights to this particular concept or proposal as it has been in the air since at least 1900 with the publication of Tesla's article.
I am really sad to read this : "National"
cause I would deliver an "Inter+National" solution like to read
here as "Antwort #5" :
www.overunity.de
by entering the thread : "Lineare Drehbewegung ..." .
Have a fine day
greetings
OCWL
About normal, lets just lead everyone down a path that will never lead to anything and waste time. It really saddens me that this kind of crap goes on but its all over the place. And if you even get close to something that will have merit, you get the ringer for it. Why do we still fall for this? How about we all just move in the direction of things that have a chance instead of a brick wall. Watching how nature does things will lead to many great things and then will be simple in concept.
Quote from: Thaelin on August 23, 2017, 06:13:52 AM
About normal, lets just lead everyone down a path that will never lead to anything and waste time. It really saddens me that this kind of crap goes on but its all over the place. And if you even get close to something that will have merit, you get the ringer for it. Why do we still fall for this? How about we all just move in the direction of things that have a chance instead of a brick wall. Watching how nature does things will lead to many great things and then will be simple in concept.
Not sure where you are coming from. What do you think is a waste of time?
That a heat engine can run on ambient heat is, I think, a demonstrated fact. Unfortunately it seems no one has developed any kind of working machine much beyond the toy "drinking duck". There is abundant heat energy in the air. The concept is quite simple. Get rid of some of that heat by some cooling process and the rest of all that heat becomes available.
That heat engine, the "drinking duck" can run forever and produce some small amount of usable energy on nothing more than ambient heat and a tiny drop of evaporating water for cooling.
The problem is mainly getting rid of excess heat. That really is not a big problem there is just something counter intuitive about running a heat engine by throwing off heat, but that is what is necessary.
The drinking duck uses a minuscule amount of evaporating water for cooling yet, rather impressively, IMO, can run indefinitely, producing an equally minuscule amount of "free energy" from ambient heat. The Earth's surface is 71% water. We have oceans full of evaporatively cooled water which is near ice cold just a few meters below the surface. But cold water is just one way to cool a heat engine.
An Air-cycle heat pump produces much colder temperatures than evaporative cooling while also producing high grade heat, but the focus needs to be on dumping EXCESS heat as Ambient Heat is really OVER ABUNDANT!
Instead of a drop of water evaporating to cool a tiny bit of felt on a toy duck's beak, why not a cooling pond to cool a much larger ambient heat engine.
It certainly would not be necessary to use good drinking water. Any kind of cool water would do. Salty, brackish, river water, well water, ocean water, a fish pond, even sewage water for that mater.
Tom, you have the 'right' idea. To go even further, it is not necessary to have a cold sink; just convert the heat directly into electricity.
Quote from: memoryman on August 23, 2017, 10:55:36 AM
Tom, you have the 'right' idea. To go even further, it is not necessary to have a cold sink; just convert the heat directly into electricity.
I've been following the nantenna stuff since someone in here mentioned it a few years ago on another thread, if that's what you mean. Quite interesting I must say. That someday might amount to something. Last I heard, with some five million $$$$, Red Wave might come up with a prototype, but I'm not holding my breath. Anyway it isn't something I could build in my workshop in the basement.
Personally I think I might just knock something together out of tin cans and a soldering iron that can outperform what nantennas have actually been able to produce in USEABLE energy. The ultra-high frequency AC currently(?) produced(as of 2016 ? I think) isn't rectifiable. (rectifiable <- is that a real word?)
Anyway, not to be dismissive, I appreciate the input, but at this point nano-antennas seem to be a bit of a red herring. A diversion from a more straightforward and IMO promising and readily doable, by any back yard tinkerer, approach.
Not that building a combination Stirling Engine / Air Cycle System is a piece of cake or anything but I think it is at least DOABLE with my mini-metal lathe and drill press and maybe an old coffee can or two, some gasket cement and a blow torch. Maybe some duct tape, a few balloons and a rubber band. $25 grand should do it for a prototype.
Actually, Simon Derricutt has been running a thread on revolution-green on how to do this in his kitchen. He expects real results this year.
Using some form of heat engine can work, but requires the cold sink; not always doable. Have you looked at Nitinol engines? Not very efficient, but they do work.
Personally, I have had an interest in converting heat to electricity for many decades.
Hello memoryman,
related "...Simon Derricut has been running.." :
is he ready with his re-/search and can he demonstrate his functional results pro-to-type-ly ?
Is there a need for a "cold sink" or in reality an "heat sink" ?
What is about RT=room temperature as metrical NN,base-line ?l
He have this,his, affords later by and with altrustic mention/man(n)er (to stay in remind):
https://www.google.pt/search?q=wilhelm+haeberle+heat+patent&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b&gfe_rd=cr&ei=rV2fWezUFKGp8weinrXIDA
Sincerely
OCWL
Hi, lancaIV.
He does not have a demonstration prototype: hopefully this year.
No cold sink; direct conversion of infra red to electricity.
There won't be a patent on the principle but may be on part of the manufacturing process.
Quote from: memoryman on August 24, 2017, 09:22:21 AM
Actually, Simon Derricutt has been running a thread on revolution-green on how to do this in his kitchen. He expects real results this year.
Using some form of heat engine can work, but requires the cold sink; not always doable. Have you looked at Nitinol engines? Not very efficient, but they do work.
Personally, I have had an interest in converting heat to electricity for many decades.
I've browsed around on revolution green for some time but haven't been able to locate the thread you mentioned. Is this a blog?
Could you provide a link to the thread?
We've had some discussions on this previously. Regarding Tesla's "Self-Acting Engine". The heat engine or device proposed actually does not REQUIRE a "sink" or "cold resorvuor". At least not in the traditional thermodynamic sense. If I might try to explain.
Tripler for example, compressed air into pipes which ran through a water cooling jacket. Without the water jacket the heat of compression would have reached THOUSANDS of degrees F.
The water in the cooling jacket, most probably, or at least at times would have, or could have been well ABOVE the ambient air temperature. Nevertheless, water has a tremendouse capacity for heat absorption, and being RELATIVELY cold, compared to the compressed air, could draw off the heat of compression at a prodigious rate. Likewise, any heat pump or refrigeration system operates similarly, by manipulating the RELATIVE temperature diference between the COMPRESSED and therefore HOT refrigerant and the ambient. Tripler, by boiling liquid air with ambient heat in a steam engine realized a "surplussage" of about 3x. That is he could manufacture 10 gallons of liquid air by boiling just 3 gallons in his steam engine used to power his compressor BECAUSE the tepid water, though above ambient could yet absorb the heat of compression at a prodigious rate.
In otherwords, this is not a below ambient "sink" but rather simply one method of discarding excess heat. He realized a surplus of energy although discarding enormouse volumes of heat energy. Not only did his method make the heat of the ambient available, it did so by making hot water from the discarded heat of compression.
Now back then the only heat engine known primarily was the steam engine. Thus the necessity for cooling the air to the point of liquefaction. Otherwise how could you BOIL the air with ambient heat in a conventional steam engine? You, of course, could not. This was the same premis Tesla and others strived for in that era. Liquid Air to boil in a steam engine with ambient heat to somehow come up with a Self Acting Engine. What they failed to take into account was the necesity for dumping enormous quantities of excess heat. In otherwords, for such an engine to be "self acting" it needs to also make lots and lots of hot water ( or hot air).
But today this whole process can be greatly simplified by using a low delta T Stirling engine. A Stirling engine does not require liquid air to be boiled to create internal pressure to operate. Further, it can utilize at least SOME of the excess heat of compression to augment its operation. (increase the temperature difference).
The purpose of compressing the air, it must be remembered however, is to COOL it. That the process of cooling the air also throws off heat is largely incidental.
A freezer makes ice essentially by compressing a "fluid" or gas so as to increase its temperature RELATIVE to the ambient at which point the heat dissipates to the ambient "sink" on its own accord with nothing more than convection of sometimes quite warm ambient air.
So, if Tripler could realize a surplus of energy though discarding ALL the generated heat of compression, an even greater surplus can be realized by applying the same process but using the temperature difference created to run a Stirling engine which is capable of utilizing both extreem cold as well as extreem heat.
There are several articles, sometimes under Mark Dansie's name. Her is one:
http://revolution-green.com/defining-flow-energy-real-quest-free-energy/
Understand that we want WORK done; ENERGY is the means to get WORK.
Quote from: memoryman on August 25, 2017, 10:18:23 AM
There are several articles, sometimes under Mark Dansie's name. Her is one:
http://revolution-green.com/defining-flow-energy-real-quest-free-energy/
Understand that we want WORK done; ENERGY is the means to get WORK.
In regard to re-establishing an imbalance. The drinking Bird, as silly as it may seem, does just that. How? by disposing of the excess heat of the ambient with evaporative cooling. There is, as a matter of fact, no actual "sink" or "cold reservoir". Experiments have shown that even ABOVE ambient temperature water IN THE GLASS will work and the bird will still keep going.
When air is compressed, WHILE ALSO BEING COOLED by a water jacket (or a radiator or any form of heat exchanger to eliminate the excess heat). Energy is, in effect GAINED because the compression process becomes easier. If the heat of compression is removed the compression process becomes that much easier. That is, Hot air when cooled contracts in volume on its own so that not so much energy needs to be expended in the compression process. Tripler made this observation in regard to his Air Liquifier. By drawing off the heat of compression, he related how he did not have to use as much energy to compress the air.
We live in what amounts to a hot furnace. Earth's atmosphere is extremely hot, relatively speaking. The problem of maintaining or re-establishing an imbalance is a problem of somehow throwing off all that EXCESS heat we are surrounded by. That is not such a difficult engineering problem once the goal of eliminating heat, rather than accumulating more of it is clearly identified.
Running steam engines on liquid air is possible, but on a large scale there are enormous difficulties. It is certainly POSSIBLE as Tripler demonstrated, but probably not very practical in the long run. For one thing, liquid air is violently explosive if contained. Tripler himself identified the potential military applications. You couldn't keep a tank full of liquid air in your car's gas tank. It would either explode or it would boil away and go to waste. Cryogenic temperatures required to make liquid air present material problems. A Stirling engine could operate at much more manageable temperatures.
http://www.astrofoil.net/astrofoil.insulation.r-values.html (http://www.astrofoil.net/astrofoil.insulation.r-values.html)
"neutral temperature"
http://www.astrofoil.net/img51.gif (http://www.astrofoil.net/img51.gif)
the last sentance:
All objects ........ no temperature ...... an object.
Brownian movement
in a perfect vacuum=no friction/resistance ambiance
Michael Rodriguez
http://gigadron.com/ (http://gigadron.com/)
http://whatistemperature.com/ (http://whatistemperature.com/)
http://www.astrofoil.net/ (http://www.astrofoil.net/)
http://www.astrofoil.net/astrofoil.insulation.tech1.html (http://www.astrofoil.net/astrofoil.insulation.tech1.html)
http://www.astrofoil.net/img75.gif (http://www.astrofoil.net/img75.gif)
Quote from: lancaIV on August 24, 2017, 07:17:17 PM
Hello memoryman,
related "...Simon Derricut has been running.." :
is he ready with his re-/search and can he demonstrate his functional results pro-to-type-ly ?
Is there a need for a "cold sink" or in reality an "heat sink" ?
What is about RT=room temperature as metrical NN,base-line ?l
He have this,his, affords later by and with altrustic mention/man(n)er (to stay in remind):
https://www.google.pt/search?q=wilhelm+haeberle+heat+patent&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b&gfe_rd=cr&ei=rV2fWezUFKGp8weinrXIDA (https://www.google.pt/search?q=wilhelm+haeberle+heat+patent&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b&gfe_rd=cr&ei=rV2fWezUFKGp8weinrXIDA)
Sincerely
OCWL
Hello lancaIV!
There are some interesting patents to be found at that link, too bad I don't speak german, but by the description the patent you linked to seems to be something like this one - see picture - I made an excerpt from the patent attached...
There I found also another patent about replacing an expansion valve with a roots blower - also attached...
All of this could make an interesting system, I'm interested at the opinions of everyone.
Also, did anyone try to build systems similar to this?
Hope i'm not too much offtopic, just tought to post this, so here it is.
I have a few questions regarding the diagram: What exactly is "the transporting means".?
Also why is heat being introduced into the evaporator?
It seems the turbine drives everything else, but I'm not clear on what drives the turbine. The heat entering the (cold) evaporator? Perhaps I'm not comprehending the system, but it appears like one would be putting a heater inside an ice box. Rather than somehow driving the turbine, wouldn't the heat entering the evaporator simply destroy the cold side of the temperature diference created by the heat pump. The key to unlocking the mystery of this apparent contradiction is, I suppose "the transport means", but at this point I can only guess what "the transport means" actually consists of.
Quote from: Tom Booth on August 26, 2017, 02:45:03 AM
I have a few questions regarding the diagram: What exactly is "the transporting means".?
Also why is heat being introduced into the evaporator?
It seems the turbine drives everything else, but I'm not clear on what drives the turbine. The heat entering the (cold) evaporator? Perhaps I'm not comprehending the system, but it appears like one would be putting a heater inside an ice box. Rather than somehow driving the turbine, wouldn't the heat entering the evaporator simply destroy the cold side of the temperature diference created by the heat pump. The key to unlocking the mystery of this apparent contradiction is, I suppose "the transport means", but at this point I can only guess what "the transport means" actually consists of.
Hello Mr.Booth,
at first I will give you the above image descriprion,dwlivered ny the WIPI-system:
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?FT=D&date=19850704&DB=&locale=&CC=WO&NR=8502881A1&KC=A1&ND=1# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?FT=D&date=19850704&DB=&locale=&CC=WO&NR=8502881A1&KC=A1&ND=1#)
so you can read and imagine 3 to 4th dimensional the exothermic and internal thermic energy converting process,
I hope so that the inventor did translate this procedere clearly enough.
Probably later there will be a potential for less important questions !
Sincerely
OCWL
p.a.: wishing a nice weekend,cristian calandar viewside
Hello Tom!
As I understand, the transporting means would be something like a screw drive (or maybe something even better), to push the liquid to the part 4. (I'm not an expert in this field, so sugesstions for transporting means are welcome).
Also I think that first the left half (normal heat pump) has to be run until the cold and hot parts are created and then would be the time to engage the right side. Maybe that way the left side has a time advantage and the hot and cold parts would not be totaly destroyed, but instead the compressor would run more at ease.
OK, this are just my thoughts about the way I understand the patent. Hopefully something good comes out of this.
Also the patent in the bottom (in my previous post) coud be added to this system instead of the expansion valve (roots blower attached to a generator) to gain additional output.
Quote from: madddann on August 25, 2017, 07:57:45 PM
Hello lancaIV!
There are some interesting patents to be found at that link, too bad I don't speak german, but by the description the patent you linked to seems to be something like this one - see picture - I made an excerpt from the patent attached...
There I found also another patent about replacing an expansion valve with a roots blower - also attached...
All of this could make an interesting system, I'm interested at the opinions of everyone.
Also, did anyone try to build systems similar to this?
Hope i'm not too much offtopic, just tought to post this, so here it is.
Hello maddann,
you want it -the thermodynamic cycle engine- easier aamd more compact ?
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?FT=D&date=19970506&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=US&NR=5626459A&KC=A&ND=4# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?FT=D&date=19970506&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=US&NR=5626459A&KC=A&ND=4#)
Mr.Thomas Cosby,Chicago/U.S.A. is now corporal death,R.I.P..
But he delivered me (I called to him in a time before 9/11,+/- 2000) the rights to introduce his concept to the european WIPO-aerea EP,
the comercial rights now temporarely lost( 20 years countdown and/or no patent fee payings),
neither the one reazon nor the other reazon let me hinder to ad-/re-dress the honour -to whom- the laudatio has to be given.
I am only doing "open source"-information management.
http://www.overunity.de/206/freedom-housecar-project/20/wap2/
http://books.google.pt/books/about/Development_of_the_Steam_Engine_and_Resu.html?id=5eWXtgAACAAJ&redir_esc=y
http://www.geocities.ws/cosbytech/
http://www.world-wire.com/news/0401040001.html
Have a good day
OCWL
p.s.: "Maximum ambient cycle" another publicated theme by Mr.Thomas Cook
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?FT=D&date=19920428&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=US&NR=5107682A&KC=A&ND=4# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?FT=D&date=19920428&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=US&NR=5107682A&KC=A&ND=4#)
A similar "energy solution re-/researcher" : Barry Lebost
https://www.google.pt/search?q=barry+lebost+heat&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-ab&gfe_rd=cr&ei=9EyhWeqyC8yp8wee17_4CA
(https://www.google.pt/search?q=barry+lebost+heat&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-ab&gfe_rd=cr&ei=9EyhWeqyC8yp8wee17_4CA)
Quote from: madddann on August 26, 2017, 05:44:10 AM
Hello Tom!
As I understand, the transporting means would be something like a screw drive (or maybe something even better), to push the liquid to the part 4. (I'm not an expert in this field, so sugesstions for transporting means are welcome).
Also I think that first the left half (normal heat pump) has to be run until the cold and hot parts are created and then would be the time to engage the right side. Maybe that way the left side has a time advantage and the hot and cold parts would not be totaly destroyed, but instead the compressor would run more at ease.
OK, this are just my thoughts about the way I understand the patent. Hopefully something good comes out of this.
Also the patent in the bottom (in my previous post) coud be added to this system instead of the expansion valve (roots blower attached to a generator) to gain additional output.
Term(-inus) Extruder (In-truder)
truder: similar german "trudeln,torkeln"
Metrometer,Gyroskope
laminar to turbulent stream and vise-versa
Gegenstroemungstauscher
a thermodynamic engine in industrial process,
with most pro/cons at-/tested:
https://www.google.pt/search?source=hp&q=schukey+motor&oq=schukey&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0l4.2205.10222.0.12233.9.9.0.0.0.0.267.1517.0j8j1.9.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.9.1504...0i10k1j0i19k1j0i13i30i19k1.pEDjFX0ZKAg (https://www.google.pt/search?source=hp&q=schukey+motor&oq=schukey&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0l4.2205.10222.0.12233.9.9.0.0.0.0.267.1517.0j8j1.9.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.9.1504...0i10k1j0i19k1j0i13i30i19k1.pEDjFX0ZKAg)
the DELTA-OMEGA MASCHINE
lancaIV, thanks for the links and all.
I also saw this on the german wiki:
"the Schukey motor has received funding from the European union Thermodyna Maschinen und Anlagen GmbH is currently working on the development of standard products"
So the big boys are working on it :) .
I think the patent is making use of the excess heat energy of vapor compression cycles to power a turbine. The first circuit is a compressor, heat exchanger as condenser, expansion valve and evaporator as heat exchanger. The second circuit is two heat exchangers, at condenser and evaporator, and a turbine. The second circuit also being filled with a refrigerant.
The compressor makes hot gas which transfers the heat to the second circuit. This heats the fluid of the second circuit to power a turbine. The refrigerant in the first circuit leaves the heat exchanger as a condensed liquid, enters the evaporator and boils, taking on the heat of the vapor in the second circuit. The vapor in the second circuit should condense, and be ready to repeat the cycle.
I think the inventor is making use of the efficiency of vapor compression cycles. Here's a little info about modern heat pumps (air conditioners):
If you used an electric heater (joule heating) of 30,000 btu/hr, that requires 8,792W. And that's 100% efficient, as all electric power is converted directly to heat.
A modern heat pump could produce the same 30,000 btu/hr for roughly 2,160W or less, depending on the efficiency rating.
So consider that a heat pump is providing the heat to power a steam turbine, the turbine turning a generator, and the generator producing more KW than the heat pump requires. I think the feasibility of this system comes from heat energy, as any excess heat picked up by the system only increases power output.
Hello antijon!
Good logical thinking, thank you.
The vapor (steam) turbines can be as high as 50% efficient (in big applications) so the patent could be feasible.
Now the only thing that is bothering me is part 6 - the transporting means... how can be the fluid moved forward without exerting back pressure and using minimal energy to do it?
...also look at below statement from the patent...
This post was edited because of mistakes.
This dawned on me last night while I was loading a truck, moving furniture.
The drinking bird is essentially a kind of, or similar in operation to an ammonia based refrigerator. Well in actuality, it occurs to me now. It actually LOOKS almost EXACTLY like the old "Icy bulb" ammonia refrigerator. Wow! It's internal structure and mode of operation is also the same. Or almost. The working fluid is different presumably. But, to work or operate, the Icy Bulb needs to be manually turned on its end from time to time. Did the Icy Bulb inspire the Drinking Duck. Or perhaps its just a matter of form follows function.
Anyway my revelation last night while driving the truck moving furniture and such was. In the ammonia system (and "Dipping Duck" and Icy Bulb) the phase where the working fluid is being heated or boiled is equivalent to the compression phase in a vapor compression cycle.
So in the bird its working fluid is being "compresssed" and cooled simultaneously. The boiling fluid increases the internal pressure but the evaporative cooling holds the temperature down.
So there is that corelation between the bird and Trppler and Bob Neal and others who demonstrated some apparent overunity with some form of cyclic heat engine or compressor.
In otherwords It dawned on me that the key to the overunity of the drinking bird is not the evaporative "cooling" but rather, the same as all the others.
http://crosleyautoclub.com/IcyBall/HomeBuilt/HomeBuilt.html
Sorry, that old refrigeration system that looks like a dippy bird is called IcyBall not icy bulb.
Anyway I think the resemblance is more than superficial.
Hey Dan, I think the transporting means is a simple pump. The image shows that the liquid refrigerant is pumped into the heat exchanger where it boils into a hot vapor. This means that the pump must withstand the increased pressure of the vapor down the line. After the vapor works on the turbine, it will lose pressure, and as it condenses in the other heat exchanger ( no. 1 in image) it will further lose pressure.
The pump must be high pressure, but the flow rate doesn't need to be high. A little liquid turns into a lot of steam.
A curious part of the patent is the heat input of 7 and 8 in the diagram. I'm guessing that as steam powers a turbine it loses some kinetic energy, or converts it directly to mechanical energy. The steam is then cooled and condensed at no. 1. 7 and 8 must be the input for excess heat which raises the temperature of the liquid. This should allow the liquid to boil at a higher temperature down the line. In ACs, subcooling is a good thing, as it allows the boiling fluid to take on more heat. But I guess for a heat engine you want the subcooling to be as low as possible.
Hi antijon.
Thanks for explaining, I was wondering why the increased pressure would not just stall or even reverse the flow through the pump...
As I understand, 7 and 8 is the pipe feeding the heat from the environment or external heat input.
I was wondering another thing... a steam turbine can be from 20% (for small aplications) to 50% (for huge applications) efficient at converting heat to mechanical energy, and using water, the water to vapor ratio is 1:1700.
Now what would be the efficiency of a steam turbine when used with refrigerant R134a? What is the liquid to gas ratio of this refrigerant? If i'm looking at the right numbers, the liquid to gas ratio is several times that of water to vapor :o .
Dan, I'd like to know what numbers you're looking at. I think R134 does have a higher COP than water, but I'm not so sure the volume ratio is higher. If you compare the enthalpy of the vapor, or latent heat of evaporation, like in this link http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fluids-evaporation-latent-heat-d_147.html you'll see that water tops the chart. R134 isn't in the list but it'd be right below R22. This means water takes much more heat to break bonds and vaporize. If you compare the density of R134 and water vapor, R134 vapor is about 9 times more dense at atmospheric pressure. Putting together what we know about the heat content and density, water should have a much larger volume than R134.
Well I'm not too sure, just going by what I know. Here's a story for your amusement. Just last week I had to condemn an AC unit because some jackass got water in the freon lines. Water and refrigerant oil, POE, form acids. This is bad, of course. After pulling out the R410, I vacuumed the system for about 12 hours. It wasn't enough, the water was still there. See, in refrigeration, water is like nightmare that never ends. It literally takes days of vacuuming to try to boil it all out, and when you think you're close, there's still more. So yeah, water takes a tremendous volume as a vapor.
For the patent, water is probably not the best anyway. It takes too high of a temp to boil for a heat pump system on the first circuit. I've seen water cooled units that never come close to boiling water. The good thing about a refrigerant is the low boiling point. You can always raise the pressure if you want it to boil at a higher temp. To lower the boiling point of water you have to run it in a vacuum, and this is impossible except on an industrial scale.
"Osma tech" coating (hot and/or cool)
http://overunity.com/2606/electricity-saver/wap2/ (http://overunity.com/2606/electricity-saver/wap2/)
http://www.overunity.de/2013/radikal-zukunft-design/150/ (http://www.overunity.de/2013/radikal-zukunft-design/150/)
Mahmoud Kaffouzi,Damascus heat pump/chiller optimizer
or MECH(M.PRUEITT) or eats.co.uk.ltd
http://overunity.com/5588/the-heatpump-with-more-energy-out-than-in-fact/ (http://overunity.com/5588/the-heatpump-with-more-energy-out-than-in-fact/)
Reply #8
Li Yng Tyan motor-transmission
http://overunity.com/1814/ambient-cycle/ (http://overunity.com/1814/ambient-cycle/)
https://google.com/patents/US5463914
C.O.P.: ?
Have a nice day or night by dreammare diving
bmbr
OCWL
p.s.: about heat systems http://www.overunity.de/184/waermepumpe-versus-elektroheizer/195/ (http://www.overunity.de/184/waermepumpe-versus-elektroheizer/195/)
Quote from: antijon on August 26, 2017, 03:14:56 PM
Hey Dan, I think the transporting means is a simple pump. The image shows that the liquid refrigerant is pumped into the heat exchanger where it boils into a hot vapor. This means that the pump must withstand the increased pressure of the vapor down the line. After the vapor works on the turbine, it will lose pressure, and as it condenses in the other heat exchanger ( no. 1 in image) it will further lose pressure.
The pump must be high pressure, but the flow rate doesn't need to be high. A little liquid turns into a lot of steam.
A curious part of the patent is the heat input of 7 and 8 in the diagram. I'm guessing that as steam powers a turbine it loses some kinetic energy, or converts it directly to mechanical energy. The steam is then cooled and condensed at no. 1. 7 and 8 must be the input for excess heat which raises the temperature of the liquid. This should allow the liquid to boil at a higher temperature down the line. In ACs, subcooling is a good thing, as it allows the boiling fluid to take on more heat. But I guess for a heat engine you want the subcooling to be as low as possible.
Hope no one gets offended but somehow this system strikes me as a bit akin to expecting your kitchen fridge to not only run by itself but also send power back to the grid by simply leaving the doors open for the ambient heat to flow in and power it, and if that doesn't work well two refrigerators with the doors open working together should do it.
Tom I'm not offended, it's not my invention. It's not like a refrigerator at all though. It's like using a heat pump, which already has a COP greater than 1, to power a heat engine, and then looping it to make it stand-alone.
Quote from: antijon on August 30, 2017, 08:17:32 AM
Tom I'm not offended, it's not my invention. It's not like a refrigerator at all though. It's like using a heat pump, which already has a COP greater than 1, to power a heat engine, and then looping it to make it stand-alone.
Perhaps I'm mistaken but isn't a refrigerator exactly the same as a heat-pump? Speaking in terms of the mechanical apparatus, just used in a different application. A refrigerator absorbs heat out of the ice box through the evaporator tubes and delivers heat into the kitchen through the condenser. A heat pump absorbs heat from outside through
its evaporator tubes and moves that heat into the house. A refrigerator and a heat pump are simply two different names for the same device.
The "Heat Engine" is also, IMO simply a kind of disguised heat pump or refrigeration system. The compressor has been called "transporting means" and instead of an expansion valve, an "actuator vapor turbine" has been used. In some refrigeration systems an expansion turbine is used instead of an expansion valve, but serves essentially the same purpose; to restrict the fluid flow which allows a build-up of pressure behind it. The pressure build up results in an increase in temperature at which point heat can be dissipated.
by substituting a turbine in place of an expansion valve a refrigerator is not likely to run itself on the power output of the turbine and so would be less likely to power an additional refrigerator as well.
performance optimizer ?
http://www.aenertec.com/talon_rms.htm
wmbr
OCWL