Edit: this thread will be used primarily as a dropbox of ideas and 3d models of those ideas :)
will be cleaning it up to make it easier to follow and as more info comes about.
I,m not sure if this has been done yet, so I,m putting it up on the board.
The prime mover (in the middle) is the P.F.T. from jln labs, here,s the link
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/pftm2.htm
Attached to the ends are Faraday disks (homopolar generators) I thought the concept
is worth investigating 8)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homopolar_generator
Dirt
P.S. you need the program "openfx" to view the 3d model, the zip was archived with
7zip.
Hello all
The reason why I thought this could work, is that a Faraday disk has little or no
back torque from what I understand, could be wrong though, and the P.F.T. has
little current draw (according to the tests at J.L.N.)
Dirt
Quote from: joe dirt on May 09, 2007, 01:10:28 AM
Hello all
The reason why I thought this could work, is that a Faraday disk has little or no
back torque from what I understand, could be wrong though, and the P.F.T. has
little current draw (according to the tests at J.L.N.)
Dirt
The back torque on a Faraday disc is in fact quite high. Just try to move a strong magnet close to a aluminum plate, and you'll feel the back torque. Try to make a magnet glide down a 45 degree or 90 degree aluminum plate. The magnet will sag quite slowly until it leaves the plate.
Br.
Vidar
Quote
The back torque on a Faraday disc is in fact quite high. Just try to move a strong magnet close to a aluminum plate, and you'll feel the back torque. Try to make a magnet glide down a 45 degree or 90 degree aluminum plate. The magnet will sag quite slowly until it leaves the plate.
Br.
Vidar
Hello Low-Q
Thanks for the info, but are you certain the faraday disk operates using the same
principle mechanics? This taken from the Wiki:
QuoteLike all dynamos, the Faraday disc converts kinetic energy to electrical energy. However, unlike all other dynamos, this machine cannot be analysed using Faraday's own law of electromagnetic induction. This law (in its modern form) states that an electric current is induced in a closed electrical circuit when the magnetic flux enclosed by the circuit changes (in either magnitude or direction). However, the circuit in the Faraday disc is parallel to the magnetic flux vector and therefore encloses no magnetic flux. Therefore, Faraday's law does not apply to this machine.
Appreciated
Dirt
Faraday disk generators are well known. They power rail guns, atom smashers, and various welders etc. If they had no back torque someone would have noticed. There was a lot of discussion and misinformation about homo polar generators in the past. Some of the atom smasher type generators put out in the neighborhood of 700,000 amps at 8-12 volts.
Maybe you are right Joe. A small magnet crossing a big area of metal will because of the magnetic loop from north to south have a relative different direction and generation of current in the metal plate in the center of the magnet compared to the edges where the magnetic field is going the opposite way. This two currents works against each other, and that might be the reason why small magnets are partly prevented to move close to a metal surface. The Faraday disc, however, is rotating in a magnetic field where the magnetic lines are going the same way in the whole direction of the rotation.
I'll take a moment to think on it :)
Br.
Vidar
Low-Q your input is appreciated
Gearhead 700,000 amps @12 volts! and they run this in a circular pattern! I,m
surprised it doesn,t create a minature black hole and then all of us would have
to live on a singularity (talk about close neighbors)
Well........I guess we won,t really know until this device is actually built
and tested and since I,m the one who put up the idea.... I guess that
should be me........................ WooHoo who needs sleep anyway ;)
Any idea where I can find suitable copper pieces? I have a lathe & milling machine
so working it won,t be a problem, I can create the long magnets out of old
chipper blades from the local sawmill.... (man, R&D is getting expensive)
Updates in que
Dirt
fun idiea Joe go to a repair center where they repair korsene power heaters like ready hots , these use a HV coil to ru the spark assembily I have a few that i use and there 120 volt output is 30Kv ....... samsung copyers have a stand aloe board i the printer thats is 19 KV
Hey M.C.
Yes...old copy machines have all types of nifty parts, I,ll start looking
around for a few, kerosene heaters, I,ll look into that also.
Thanks
Dirt
hello joe
seams a lot like my machine but i use my turbine and water to turn the generators the configuration you have showen will produce back torque because of the statarny magnets put them all as 1 and they will not produce back torque because all is spinning fariday said that this was the only acception to his rule i am just finishing my unit it will be compleat verry soon and ready for testing after testing is compleat it is on to production and some one contacted me and wants to produce it after i have proof of concept this same person gave me 85 neo mags to do my proof of concept generators they are being milled this comming week each mag disc will have 16 -22 1" x .25 " neos in it there 4 discs of neos and 2 copper discs and if you put the magnets oppsing each other north to north it will produce 2 x the voltage as north south the only diffrence is my unit will spinn at about 15 000 rpm and up from there the faster it spinns the more power it will make my entire unit spinning will weigh about 65 + lbs so for it to slow down it will have to produce a hole lot of back torque but since this produces such a little amount it will not slow down and will be overunity as the n machine is too the whole thing hings on the speed of operation as does the tpu except with the tpu it is electricty we are raceing around at almost the speed of light!
is
Hey I.S.
Sounds like your ahead of me on this one, i hope it works out for ya! Congrats ;)
Quotethis same person gave me 85 neo mags
Man i wish i had friends like that, that,s pretty cool of them.
Appreciated
Dirt
hey joe this good guy is from your country met him last week in my country we are 98 percent sure it will work but right now proof of concept first! then we go huge ;)
and i do mean big magnets 6 " od neo rings and 14 of them 500 us each! total on mags 7000 us plus all the other stuff
is
Have you seen Teslas patents concerning the homopolar generator, he solved most of the problems involved. There are basically two, eddy currents generating heat(heat is not electricity) and the brush problem(putting 100+ amps through high speed brushes).
what if your high speed brushes was a spark gap? and did not phsicaly touch the disc?
or you used some non toxic super condictuve liquid in place of mecuary? those are some of my latest thoughts on the topic also tesla said that if you section the disc it will force current to flow to the outside of the disc also what if the heat was not such a big problem and you found a use for it like to heat your house then the unit could provide heat and electricty for your house!
is
No need to start a new thread, so here is "Yet Another Theoretical permanent magnet motor" idea.
Quote from: joe dirt on December 01, 2007, 09:41:35 PM
No need to start a new thread, so here is "Yet Another Theoretical permanent magnet motor" idea.
Its look like a searl engine, well similar by the use of 2 stators, searl use 3 and the roller inside floating between the stator layer but its not only magnet
Anyway nice drawing :)
Hi One :)
It,s an idea that occurred to me once and completely forgotten about it until a couple days ago,
I done the model in a couple minutes, it,s not mechanically viable, i just wanted to convey the
idea of a triangular shaped magnet in a circular track.
Look close at the polarity of the magnets, just a thought I had a few years back, havn,t tried it
out yet though.
good day One
Dirt
Quote from: joe dirt on December 01, 2007, 09:41:35 PM
No need to start a new thread, so here is "Yet Another Theoretical permanent magnet motor" idea.
Hi,
The reason why a magnet is moving at all is because the flux density is uneven in the front and the rear of the magnet (Caused by another magnet nearby) - most of all because the magnetism is finite. In your drawing the two ring-magnets will not provide this asymetrical magnetism as there is the exact same magnetic force in front and behind the rotor magnets. I had a similar idea once by using two big loudspeaker magnets where north was pointing into eachother like in your drawing, but aligned as a sandwich construction - in principle pretty much a copy of your idea. I built it, and it did not work.
In school I learned that a conductor with a certain current flow will be forced in one direction inside a magnetic field. But that is only true if the magnetic field is finite and the conductor can be able to "escape" away from the magnetic field. In a circular magnet, this magnetism never change angle or density along the circumference in the two ring-magnets you have there. So there is no exits for the rotor magnets to escape. Hence it will not start to rotate. Sad but true.
Br.
Vidar
Hi LQ :)
Ah I see, so nature always finds an equilibrium, very frugal she is. Thanks for sharing your
results with me, I,ll take your word on it, this will spare me the trouble of testing it myself.
Appreciated
Dirt
This is a theoretical RECapacitor :)
Have to retool this thing, the iron windings does capture energy but overall it,s not a producer of RE.
Ehh this is a waste of time..... onward
.This is only a concept
Relation stator ? rotor: pulse motor: permanent magnets repelled by solenoid(s).
Solenoid works in two stages; since ferrite metals are always attracted by permanent magnets, the solenoid?s ferrite core will be attracted when power to it is OFF. When it approaches the critical point, solenoid?s power gets ON, to repel the magnet. The power to the solenoid can be as small as possible only for the permanent magnet to react on it., thus all repelling power relies on permanent magnet: solenoid in practice is only to switch ON into OFF and vice versa, even without switching current?s polarity.. Possible is however that solenoid will get powerful when ON, despite that it?s current remains small, by adding powerful permanent magnet to it?s (solenoid?s) extension without touching the core, on it?s farther side from the reacted magnet.
Result: the pair: solenoid ? permanent magnet (stator ? rotor) is not retarded by that adverse critical point area when the forces change form advantage one to adverse one (what is inevitable in relations permanent magnet ? permanent magnet), all using relatively small current. The minimal current needed to power the solenoid improves overunity ratio.
The difference from existing inventions is that those existing ones rely on permanent magnet?s power as well as SOLENOID?S power to interact; in fact, it gives more power but also diminishes overunity performance.
This approach is almost equivalent to Minato?s idea; the difference is in that permanent magnet added to the solenoid?s extension. However this kind of idea ( permanent magnet as solenoid?s extension to improve performance) also appears in some earlier inventions.
Yea! :) .............what you said.......Hehe, Hey check this link, it has exactly what you are
talking, but the math, blurs the vision
http://www.machines-x.info/magneticgenerators/stationaryMagnetic.html
Quote from: joe dirt on December 06, 2007, 11:54:45 PM
Yea! :) .............what you said.......Hehe, Hey check this link, it has exactly what you are
talking, but the math, blurs the vision
http://www.machines-x.info/magneticgenerators/stationaryMagnetic.html
How do you wind up these toroids? It takes forever to wind those up with a few thousand turns....
br.
Vidar
QuoteHow do you wind up these toroids? It takes forever to wind those up with a few thousand turns....
br.
Vidar
Hi V :)
You just find your favorite music cd, put the player on repeat, tape the workpiece to the table and
start winding............................................about four hours later you wake back into
consciousness and your neck hurts like hell........ nothing sophisticated here, hehe. oh yeah
here,s a tip, Don,t buy a rechargeable dremel tool, use a plugin, this will save you a lot of grief.
A Copy and paste from this webpage: http://kr.cs.ait.ac.th/~radok/physics/k13.htm
Self-induction. Excess-current
A conductor, through which flows current, lies always in a magnetic field - the field, aroused by the current. Every change of its intensity - including especially switching on and off - changes this field and the change of the field of force acts on the conductor, through which the current passes: It induces in it an EMF (Faraday). Because this induction acts back on the conductor, it is referred to as self-induction, and the arising current is called excess-current.
The excess-current is always directed so that it impedes the change of the current, to which it owes its generation (Lenz's Rule). For example, if you close a current or strengthen it, it does not reach immediately its full strength, or, if you strengthen it, it does not reach immediately its full intensity, but only gradually; the excess-current delays its growth; if you cut a circuit, the current does not vanish instantly; at sufficient strength, it creates at the point of interruption a strong spark - thus, the excess-current also delays the vanishing of the current. Self-induction is strongest when the conductor has many, densely spaced windings, all of which act in the same direction on the external field, like in the case of a solenoid (Fig. 542) and especially when the solenoid surrounds an iron core like in the spark inductor (Fig. 572), because it changes especially strongly the field of lines of force. You suppress self-induction of a coil by forming the windings as in Fig. 582, that is, bi-filarly. The windings then conduct the current in neighbouring windings in opposite directions so that their magnetic fields cancel each other. In coils with large resistances, their charge capacity nevertheless disturbs. In order to make it as small as possible, you wind coils from 500 Ohm upwards in the manner shown in Fig. 583: You wind narrow layers of of a few windings and change after every layer their direction.
Also, during self-induction, the magnitude of the EMF, induced in unit time, depends on the number of lines of force, intersected by the induced conductor during unit time. It depends on how fast changes the current strength, since the number of lines of force changes with the strength of the current. That is why it is much larger during opening of a circuit (opening-excess-current) than during closing it (closing-excess-current). In fact, during closing of a circuit, the arising current is impeded by the EMF of the self-induction; it rises only slowly from zero to its full strength, it has at the instant of closing the strength zero, but an instant later by no means the full strength. It is different during opening of a circuit. Immediately before, its strength is full, an instant later zero. For this reason, the EMF of the opening-current is many times larger than that of the closing current - it may be so large that it bridges the opening location by a spark in which the separated ends of the conductor melt. - The bridging extends the duration of the primary current, makes the drop (to zero) less steep and decreases thereby the induction tension of the current opening. Hence one lets in the spark inductor the electricity, which would discharge in the spark at opening, flow into the condenser, from which it escapes at the next closure into the circuit.
Moreover, the form of the conductor has great influence. If you use the same wire once stretched out linearly, another time as solenoid, and change both times the current equally quickly, the solenoid may have hundred times, even one thousand times larger induction than the straight wire. If you wind the wire bi-filarly into a spool, no induction occurs. Every coil, in fact, every conductor is characterized in this respect by the ratio between the EMF of the excess-current and the rate of change of the current. This ratio is the self-induction-coefficient; it is defined as that EMF, which is induced in the conductor itself, when the the current flowing in it changes in unit time by the current unit. If it changes in 1 second by 1 Amp and the coil is such (in form, length, cross-section and number of windings) that the EMF of the excess-current is 1 Volt, one says: The self-induction-coefficient of this coil is one (1) Henry. This measure is enormously large; in practice, you reckon with 1/1000 Henrys.