Overunity.com Archives

Using Jason's driver circuit - driver TC4427/MIC4427 into mosfet IRF840.
No diode across the coil.

Scope probe set to x10, is attached to 1 side of the coil.
Coil is 1cm diameter.
Number of turns of wire is irrelevant, as is gauge of wire.
Core - I've tried both with and without a magnet - both times I can tune to a specific freq. to give a nice clean kick.

12V+ goes to coil and then to MOSFET. The mosfet is switching to Earth (negative).

Dual trace scope was used.
Top trace shows the input square wave - 5V/DIV
Bottom trace is the coil probe - 50V/DIV because of x10 probe.
Timebase is 2microseconds.
Frequency to mosfet driver is 146khz.

1st image - single kick each time the coil goes off. No real noise on input or output. Peak goes way off the top and is approximately 650V.
2nd image - same as 1st image except x10 magnification button is pressed for TIMEBASE on scope. This allows the detail to be shown. As you can see there really is no noise nor ringing.
3rd image - this is a typical scope shot before getting to the correct frequency - plenty of noise and oscillations.
4th image - hardware shot showing the coil and probe placement.

I think the kick SM talks about is the BEMF but at a frequency where the kick is nice and clean, as per my scope shots.

NOTE: The internal diode in the IRF840 stops the kick getting anywhere. This means coil connections must be carefully connected to ensure kicks are routed to other coils before going back to the mosfet - if this is what you want.

In the coil shown I removed the magnet and wrapped another coil through the existing coil. i.e. A coil wrapped at 90degree. This coil picks up the kick (100V peak) BUT NOT the turning ON of the coil.

However, if you feed this kick to 1 coil of a bifilar coil and have another pulse from your pulsing circuitry occuring at this time, then the kick gets added to the pulsing pulse to generate a larger pulse.

So how do you time the second pulse, to coincide with the kick. Easy! You just need a second pulse at twice the frequency!! This time you get a large kick. And if you feed this into another bifilar coil and pulse this coil at the right time... and again you would need to pulse this coil at 4 times the initial frequency. Which is very near to what SM said to do. Feed this pulse back into the 1st bifilar coil and you now have a runaway feedback in place. WATCH OUT!! It will also have a rotational magnetic field. This is what I'll be trying next weekend - some of us have to work!

Cheers, Bob.

I've attached a schematic diagram of how I think the coils should be connected.

Each coil set is a bifilar coil (control coil) and wrapped around this at 90 degrees is the kick pickup coil (collector coil). In the diagram I've shown them as three seperate coil units, which should be placed 120 degrees apart around a circle.

Now consider how these would be combined together to give an SM style TPU.

1. The three kick pickup collector coils are stacked vertically on top of each other.
2. Around each collector coil is one bifilar coil placed 120 degree apart from each other.

This is EXACTLY what SM has described and is identical to what we are doing in the schematic. It will create a rotating magnetic field.

3. Wrap toroid style another coil to intersect the rotating magnetic field for the DC output.


I've shown the example using 40, 80 and 160Hz. In fact any combination of frequencies will work where the off coincides with an ON in the right order. You could use only two coil units rather than three and just invert the original turning on signal. Or you could have 4 coil sets and have 2 pair turning on at the same time on opposite sides of the circle. Again you'd only need the one signal and use the invert to turn the other pair on.

The 3 coil set I've described requires that the frequency and hence the width of the final pulse be smaller than the width of the kick pulse in order to get a runaway situation. When this condition is met the kick is still rising when the original 40Hz signal turns on - which obviously completes the feedback loop. This means if the 80 and 160 Hz signals are generate by a divide by 2 circuit, you only need one master frequency. And as long as this frequency is kept slightly off tune (where have I heard that before!) and you control how much of the kick from the 3rd coil set is fed back into the first coil set, then everything is kept under control.

Bob,

you are thinking along my lines.  Could you please graph three 40 Hz traces, each offset 120 degrees, followed by first and second harmonics of each of these three.  Nine traces in all.  Would like to see how these look like when 9 traces are lined up vertically.

If you could also do this for the 4-coil arrangement, with 4x times 40Hz, offset 90 degrees, with 1st & 2nd harmonics of these four, total 12 traces, I would greatly appreciate it.

Good week-end research, keep it up.

Regards, Earl

Bob,

I think I can draw up a schematic of a simple circuit to do the pulsing at the correct time, with no need to do coil relaying..  Will try to do it this evening.

Even so, keeping 90 degree coils, even tri-filar excitation coils allows more and diverse experiments and measurements.

Regards, Earl

MC14521B frequency divider - cost about 75 cents.

(could use a quad flip flop also, if you only need three freqs)

Bob,

please see my circuit at
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2582.msg37072.html#msg37072

it should do everything necessary, without coil relaying.

Grumpy,
because of phase relationships it is absolutely necessary to have both inverted and non-inverted outputs from each stage and make choices as appropriate.  A simple binary divider will not work.

Regards, Earl

@Earl,

If phase is that critical then you will need a means to adjust it.



Oh look, four flip flops - at least I got that right.

Quote from: Earl on June 26, 2007, 01:58:15 PM
Bob,

I think I can draw up a schematic of a simple circuit to do the pulsing at the correct time, with no need to do coil relaying..  Will try to do it this evening.

Even so, keeping 90 degree coils, even tri-filar excitation coils allows more and diverse experiments and measurements.

Regards, Earl

The coil relaying is to transfer the KICK/BEMF from one coil to the next coil - it's not to time the turning on of the next coil. *** In fact I believe you need the other coil already turned on when the BEMF starts to appear ***. I think when a magnetic field collapses you get the BEMF in the wire of the coil where the current was removed - this is traditionally accepted as what happened BUT secondly the collapsing field also causese something else to happen - which is why we can pick up this energy at a coil at 90 degrees to the coil where the magnetic field is collapsing. Perhaps we are talking about magnetic particles ? The trick is that once this energy appears at the time the BEMF appears, you have to already have set up a path for these particles to flow to. This is why you need the next pulse already starting to happen. i.e. An expanding magnetic field attracts magnetic particles - via the coil connections - from a collapsing magnetic field. So the flow between the kick collecting coil and the next bifilar coil is not traditional electricity - it is something else - that is why I'm thinking magnetic particles. This is why the phase is so important - the timing has to be perfect.

I touched one of the bare wires and it has a distinctive heating effect - as if touching a soldering iron BUT the enamelled part of the wire is only slightly warm to the touch. Also with a soldering iron your finger blisters, but with this there is no apparent damage. I've had RF burns and relatively HV burns before but this does not have the same 'quality'. Time for me to be more careful.

Because the pickup is wound 90 degree to the bifilar coils, this is not an induction pickup of energy - it's 'something' else. So what is happening is you pick up the 90 degree energy for free and then combine it via the next coils bifilar, so that there is more energy in the next coil, which inturn creates a larger KICK/BEMF, and so on around the circle. Until you get to a point where the collected energy of the spikes is more than that being put into pulsing the coils. At this point you now have a high speed rotating magnetic field that can be intercepted in the traditional way to generate high voltage and current.

I like your circuit a lot -thanks for putting this together - I'll get the waveforms done ASAP, but we're looking at the weekend now.

I thinks we are makings the progress, no ?  Ha ha !

Quote from: Earl on June 26, 2007, 05:48:27 PM
Bob,

please see my circuit at
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2582.msg37072.html#msg37072

it should do everything necessary, without coil relaying.

Grumpy,
because of phase relationships it is absolutely necessary to have both inverted and non-inverted outputs from each stage and make choices as appropriate.  A simple binary divider will not work.

Regards, Earl

hi Earl, I can see how the divide by 2 bit works. But what determines the width of the pulse ? It looks like the pulse width will be really small ? or is it 50/50 duty ?

Quote from: Grumpy on June 26, 2007, 02:22:11 PM
MC14521B frequency divider - cost about 75 cents.

(could use a quad flip flop also, if you only need three freqs)

Thanks. I like components that are under a $!

Things I'd like to be able to do but can't!

1. Adjustable pulse width on a per coil basis - so that each coil is only on for the minimum amount of time to bring the magnetic field up to a certain level.

2. Rough phase setting - ability to set the approximate phase between coils. So if you have 3 coils you have 120 degree out of phase and 4 coils 90 degrees out of phase.

3. Fine phase setting - what is important is the lining up of the turn-off times of one coil with the turn on times of another coil. The ability to adjust the pulse width will also screw up the turn-off alignment. I'd like to be able to adjust the phase so if i needed a certain amount of overlap between the turn-off of one coil and the turning-on of the next coil I could do this. The overlaps makes this much more difficult to achieve electronically I think.

The above is more to show what I think are the timing considerations in having a fully tuned setup. I think the setup above could be a few months into the future. I think careful winding of coils to make as near as identical as possible will alleviate the need for per coil tuning. The above circuit will come into its own once we have a working proof of concept as it will allow quickly wound, non-identical coils to be used, in replication attempts.

I think problems with replication (e.g. Otto et al) are down to timing differences due to slightly dissimilar coils. GK's precise measuring of wire length, placements of coils, etc. could produce some interesting results assuming of course that Otto's results don't require slightly different coils in order to achieve the correct timing!

Cheers, Bob.

Hi Bob,

in answer to your above posts, please see

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2582.msg37117.html#msg37117

hehehe I like your rhyme.

Regards, Earl

Quote from: Earl on June 27, 2007, 03:33:19 AM
Hi Bob,

in answer to your above posts, please see

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2582.msg37117.html#msg37117

hehehe I like your rhyme.

Regards, Earl

Very nice! Thanks Earl, much appreciated.

Hi Bob,

here is the further evolution of my schematic, see

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2582.msg37124.html#msg37124

regards, Earl

Hi Bob,

I would suggest limiting the adjustment range of the firing point by not using a C, only a low value 10-turn poti.  Too much adjustment range may get you lost.

Another question that pops into mind is when the beast finally starts putting out serious juice, whether to scale up physically or, for example, use 8 coils instead of 3 or 4.

I will be generating more schematics concerning 3 and 4 phase generation using a shift register.  The advantage of a SR is that there are no propagation delays from stage to stage, all stages are clocked simultaneously, even at 30 MHz.

Regards, Earl

@Earl,

I was gonna suggest an R/C network to allow phase shifting as well.

shift register = ring counter

Have M74HC164B1R (SIPO) and M74HC4017B1R counter.

Well, I'm in on this attempt! :)  It looks to be very promising.

I've wound the coils (minus the outer pickup coil wrapped around all three--picture is attached.)
I'll use my FPGA to generate the exact timing required here; just waiting on MOSFET drivers (again!).
Results will be posted on my website and here.

Good luck to all!

Eldarion

Hi Eldarion

It would be really good if after you get Earl's synchronous dividers to work and then integrate them into a FPGA. Then with a few external pot & discreet RC the pulses can be generated with minimum parts? Keep us posted. Thanks.

chrisC

Quote from: chrisC on June 27, 2007, 07:21:41 PM
Hi Eldarion

It would be really good if after you get Earl's synchronous dividers to work and then integrate them into a FPGA. Then with a few external pot & discreet RC the pulses can be generated with minimum parts? Keep us posted. Thanks.

chrisC

Chris,

I was using an FPGA so that if I ever did get something working, the control algorithms could be implemented on the same piece of hardware with minimal effort.  Also, I can generate extremely accurate frequencies with the FPGA, something I am not sure an RC oscillator can do.

Just my $0.02 :)

EDIT: Looking at the coils above, I noticed a sort of spiralling rotation, as each control coil is higher than the previous one, then it resets at the first coil.  I wonder if that would pump "something" through the coil?

Quote from: eldarion on June 27, 2007, 07:35:34 PM

Quote from: chrisC on June 27, 2007, 07:21:41 PM
Hi Eldarion

It would be really good if after you get Earl's synchronous dividers to work and then integrate them into a FPGA. Then with a few external pot & discreet RC the pulses can be generated with minimum parts? Keep us posted. Thanks.

chrisC

Chris,

I was using an FPGA so that if I ever did get something working, the control algorithms could be implemented on the same piece of hardware with minimal effort.  Also, I can generate extremely accurate frequencies with the FPGA, something I am not sure an RC oscillator can do.

Just my $0.02 :)

EDIT: Looking at the coils above, I noticed a sort of spiralling rotation, as each control coil is higher than the previous one, then it resets at the first coil.  I wonder if that would pump "something" through the coil?

Excellent. Look forward to getting your results - good or otherwise. And great to have you on board. Your coils look exactly what I was envisaging. Are the control coils bifilar - I can't tell from the pictures (or my eyesight!) ?

The way you have arranged the coils you have two sequences to try:

1. top - bottom pulsing clockwise.
2. bottom -top pulsing anticlockwise.

If you rearrange the coil you can also try:

1. top - bottom pulsing anticlockwise.
2. bottom - top pulsing clockwise

You might want to try without the output coil to start with and just scope the various coils to see what oscillations you are getting.

Although my timing diagram showed the OFF coinciding with an ON, my instinct says that you need the ON happening just before the OFF occurs. This will set in motion three thing:

1. An expanding magnetic field which attracts the particles from:
2. A collapsing magnetic field.
3. A path from the collapsing field to the expanding field.

In other words as I said in previous post. An expanding magnetic field attracts magnetic particles - via the coil connections - from a collapsing magnetic field.

OL

Quote from: bob.rennips on June 28, 2007, 04:10:36 AM
Excellent. Look forward to getting your results - good or otherwise. And great to have you on board. Your coils look exactly what I was envisaging. Are the control coils bifilar - I can't tell from the pictures (or my eyesight!) ?

Thank you for your encouragement!  Yes, the control coils are bifilar (50 turns of #22 ga. speaker wire).  No, it isn't your eyes, it is the lousy camera I used to take that picture, as I couldn't locate the good camera fast enough... ::)

Quote from: bob.rennips on June 28, 2007, 04:10:36 AM
The way you have arranged the coils you have two sequences to try:

1. top - bottom pulsing clockwise.
2. bottom -top pulsing anticlockwise.

If you rearrange the coil you can also try:

1. top - bottom pulsing anticlockwise.
2. bottom - top pulsing clockwise

You might want to try without the output coil to start with and just scope the various coils to see what oscillations you are getting.

That's what I was thinking of doing--or winding, say, 20 turns of the output coil and seeing what shows up and how much power I get out of that small coil.

Quote from: bob.rennips on June 28, 2007, 04:10:36 AM
Although my timing diagram showed the OFF coinciding with an ON, my instinct says that you need the ON happening just before the OFF occurs. This will set in motion three thing:

1. An expanding magnetic field which attracts the particles from:
2. A collapsing magnetic field.
3. A path from the collapsing field to the expanding field.

In other words as I said in previous post. An expanding magnetic field attracts magnetic particles - via the coil connections - from a collapsing magnetic field.

Should be easy enough--I'll just add a variable delay in the pulse synchronization portion of the code.  Gotta love them FPGAs... ;D  Now if only the mail service would hurry up and deliver my new MOSFET drivers... ::)

Quote from: c0mster on June 28, 2007, 12:50:49 PM

Some tests I have done show the mossfet signal has ossilations that kill the pulse. The change in voltage seems to produce the spike where as the ossilation and duty do not help. How do you kill a pulse just after the change in voltage has happened?

http://66.222.229.160:800/pic/pic.html
probe 1 is *10 5volt div.

Cam

Do you have a 10K resistor from the mosfet signal input to earth (negative) ?

Do you have a 1nF,10nf and 100nf in parallel across the power pins of the driver chip, as close to the power pins as possible ? (Try this first ifyou don't have them) use non-electrolytic, ceramic, nonolithic. Earl recommends the larger one as a tantalum correctly connected! I didn't have a tantalum around, and used ceramics.


Are you probing at one of the coil pins to see the spike ?

Not sure if it makes a difference, but I have my mosfet switching to earth. i.e. The coil is held at 12V and then one of the coil leads is swithced to earth.

I'm using a Freq. gen and keep the freq. below 500khz so the input signal to the mosfet driver is very well defined. I change the freq. until I get a crisp single 'kick'.

What's your input signal like when it's not connected to your mosfet driver ? This will eliminate your signal generator circuit as the cause of the problem.

You could try putting your input signal through an AND gate - tie one of the AND input pins to Vdd. or use two NAND gates in series and tie one of the input pins of each gate to zero ?  The gate output will normally go high to just below the extent of Vdd but check specs. of whatever chip you're using.

I decided to see what happens if you pulse a coil with two diodes connected in series to both ends of a simple air coil. In other words one diode for current in and the other for current out. So what happens when the pulse goes off ?

Normally the magnetic field collapses and current is induced in the opposite direction but the diodes stop this from happening. So what happens to the magnetic field and all that energy ? Well....

The pulse goes off, which disconnects the coil from the negative. The magnetic field collapses. You get a large voltage oscillation but the oscillation is centered around 300Volts! Once the oscillation finishes the coil holds the voltage level at a steady state of 300Volts. And I really do mean rock steady horizontal. With a 10% duty cycle and pulsing at a frequency of 120khz it oscillates for around 10% of the cycle and spends the next 80% rock steady at 300volts. In other words the magnetic energy gets converted into pure capacitance.

This pure electric field oscillation can be picked up on an oscilloscope probe placed on metal objects several feet away from the coil and shows voltage levels of 3-5 volts. Now obviously this is voltage without amperage. If you short out the diodes and leave everything else the same, and probe the same metal objects several feet way you get no reading on the oscilloscope.

If you have this diode arrangement on one coil of a bifilar wound coil you can extract this energy from the coil at any point in the 80% of the steady state cycle simply by shorting out the other coil of the bifilar coil. In other words we can now capture the BEMF and use it whenever we want. This includes coils at 90 degrees to the bifilar coil. You short out a coil at 90 degrees and the energy is transferred to this coil.

Let's say we set up 3 separate coils in a circle all with this diode arrangement as per my previously diagrammed arrangement. We are creating a rotating electric field WITHOUT THE MAGNETIC FLUX. I think we are all aware of SM's comments concerning the cancelling of the effects of the magnetic flux.

For 80% of the duty cycle electrons will now be free to whizz around the collector - attracted to the rotating position of the electric field!!!

Because we are capturing the BEMF as an electric field and transferring it to the next pulse, the voltage of the electric field will rapidly get bigger. A rotating electric field, will entrain other electric fields, such as the one around the earth!!! If this occurs you will get a lightening strike on your TPU. Think of the lightening that occurs in a tornado due to rotating electric fields.

A large electric field will play havoc with solid state electronics (ICs) but tubes will be fairly immune. (That's another SM tick).

The capacitance is effectively held between the coil windings in the insulation. This is why you see thick insulated wire in the SM TPU's it's to hold as large an electric charge as possible. (That's another SM tick).

Also the effective voltage will be low at one end and maximum at the other end of the coil.

Another way to increase the effective capacitance of a coil is to wind a bifilar coil and then connect these together in series. This ensures the greatest difference in voltage from one winding to the next, which is a requirement for increaseing capacitance of a coil.

Incidently another way of increasing the capacitance is to have a coil of larger circumference. (That's another SM tick).


Enough of the talking...

I'll post results as soon as I have any. Good or bad. If anyone else gets there first - please post.

and there is MORE...


With a bifilar and two pulsers both pulsers set up with diodes you can pulse the electric field. The voltage rises substantially with each pulse. This is not the same effect as step charging a capacitor as in a camara flash. This proves we will be able to rotate this electric only field at high speed.

There are lots of possibilities here. What happens if you can set up a rotating electric field and on top of this field pulse it at 7.8 Hz, the schumann resonance ?  I reckon you'll get some major entrainment of the ionesphere energy happening. BOOM.

This would also explain why it's so hard to control. The schumann resonance changes by +-0.5 hertz over the course of a day. During solar storms the schumann resonance can change very rapidly. You can set it off frequency and as the schumann changes it'll drift by the exact tuned frequency of your device and BOOM! (Another SM tick)

I think the follow shot is of a diode in the 6 inch tpu.

 Following a questions from Earl.

The coil is connected: 12volts to diode to coil to diode to mosfet to earth.

The voltage level is frequency dependant.

It hunts up and down as you sweep the frequency so obviously a resonant effect. If you lower the repetition rate to around 100Hz it drops in a decay curve down to about 30V. From 5khz and above it looks to be dead straight even on a x10 mag of the timebase. There is obviously an ongoing leakage of the electric field.

I checked again shorting a coil at 90 degrees to this coil does not extract the energy - so my bad on that point. In a bifilar situation shorting the other coil does extract the energy.

I think at the higher pulse rates this electric field can still be utilised to create a rotating electric field.

Hi Bob.R 

Good experiments!  And that is what we need.  especially from those of you with the know how.

Hey, I found this tid bit from Tesla about a rotating magnet field on a toroid.  Is there a way to employ this bit into our experiments?

Plate 3  THE SQUIRREL CAGE ROTOR UNDER THE ACTION OF THE ROTATING FIELD.

The wound stator ring described above can serve to demonstrate Tesla's Egg Experiment.  A sheet of non-metallic material is placed over the windings on the stator ring; a metallic egg is placed on this sheet immediately revolves around its minor axis as soon as the windings are energised from a three-phase supply.  As the speed of the egg increases the egg rises on one end and continues to spin about its major axis, thus maintaining a vertical position without additional support.

Happy Days!  :)
Bruce

Quote from: btentzer on July 01, 2007, 10:18:13 AM
Hi Bob.R 

Good experiments!  And that is what we need.  especially from those of you with the know how.

Hey, I found this tid bit from Tesla about a rotating magnet field on a toroid.  Is there a way to employ this bit into our experiments?

Plate 3  THE SQUIRREL CAGE ROTOR UNDER THE ACTION OF THE ROTATING FIELD.

The wound stator ring described above can serve to demonstrate Tesla's Egg Experiment.  A sheet of non-metallic material is placed over the windings on the stator ring; a metallic egg is placed on this sheet immediately revolves around its minor axis as soon as the windings are energised from a three-phase supply.  As the speed of the egg increases the egg rises on one end and continues to spin about its major axis, thus maintaining a vertical position without additional support.

Happy Days!  :)
Bruce

You mean this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brNBVDCeECg

God Bless,
Jason O

Hi Bob.R,

I definitely agree with your thoughts on adding the kicks. Once I perfected my harmonic pulse circuit and fed the output through a small transformer, I saw some VERY interesting kicks on the secondary which had the same exact harmonic pulses that you showed. Though I was only pulsing at around 15 kHz at the time. Here's a scope dump from the setup:

(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.com%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3D2535.0%3Battach%3D9995%3Bimage&hash=d720c02c1157cd8652d9ce8e92c3658e1eaac699)

I noticed that you only get this effect with a clean square wave with a VERY fast rising edge. These other harmonic pulses are definitely a little extra input from the environment that we can pulse on top of to gain more on the output. Like you said, that explains the purpose of using two frequencies that are harmonics of each other.... And the closer you get to the pulse harmonics lining up, the more energy! P = V^2 / R. so if we combine two waves to get double the voltage, we actually get 4 times the power at that point in time.

Also, as for getting nice clean pulses, I also want to add that you should use shielded coax to run from the control board to the MOSFET gates (if the MOSFETs are separated from the rest of the board. Another thing is NOT to use the solder less breadboards because they have a lot of capacitance and can make the harmonic signals all goto garbage once you get up into the higher frequencies. From my experience, you really only need to worry about the signals coming out of the MOSFET drivers, so make sure the wires for that are well shielded/isolated from each other and use the proper caps specked out in the data sheet. For that, I am able to get very clean square waves out of it all the way up to about 800 kHz before I start to see ringing in the line.

God Bless,
Jason O

Hi Jason,

Can you confirm you can see these pulses without the transformer?  I mean so we can discount these as Soliton pulses due to sloshing of the bloch walls in the core material?


Thanks,

Dave.

Hi Jason,

Great looking kick!

Good advice on using coax. I got my best square waves with the mosfets within 1-2cm of the driver chips. The driver chip to mosfet connection is definately key.

Do you know why the train of follow up pulses are close together but start a fair distance from the main pulse ?

The transformer - is this a self wound air core bifilar or are you looking at say a small audio transformer ?

Cheers ,Bob

Well, here is a pic of my TPU v4.  I have yet to receive (and therefore install) my MOSFET drivers, but when I do, I just have to plug them into two IC sockets and fire it up!

The board on the back is a delta-sigma ADC, and the MOSFETs on the driver board are IRF640s.

Hi Dave & Bob,

I was using a small transformer when I did that test. At the time I was simply testing my new control circuit to make sure it was functioning correctly. I plan to do some more testing on this to see if I can get the same pulses on an air-cored coil.

God Bless,
Jason O

Way nice set up - Eldarion.

Can't wait to hear how it all goes.

Quote from: eldarion on July 02, 2007, 02:59:21 AM
Well, here is a pic of my TPU v4.  I have yet to receive (and therefore install) my MOSFET drivers, but when I do, I just have to plug them into two IC sockets and fire it up!

The board on the back is a delta-sigma ADC, and the MOSFETs on the driver board are IRF640s.

Hi Eldarion,

Nice PCB man! Just a warning to you though. You NEED to shield the thing or it will be worthless when you fire up your TPU. If the coils are pulsed with a fast enough rise time, you will get LOTS of RF emissions from the coils which will easily booger up the signals going into your board. I suggest placing the board FAR away from the TPU and run coax cables to a separate board with the MOSFETs on it. By the way, are you using MOSFET drivers?

God Bless,
Jason O

Quote from: Jdo300 on July 02, 2007, 03:38:46 AM

Quote from: eldarion on July 02, 2007, 02:59:21 AM
Well, here is a pic of my TPU v4.  I have yet to receive (and therefore install) my MOSFET drivers, but when I do, I just have to plug them into two IC sockets and fire it up!

The board on the back is a delta-sigma ADC, and the MOSFETs on the driver board are IRF640s.

Hi Eldarion,

Nice PCB man! Just a warning to you though. You NEED to shield the thing or it will be worthless when you fire up your TPU. If the coils are pulsed with a fast enough rise time, you will get LOTS of RF emissions from the coils which will easily booger up the signals going into your board. I suggest placing the board FAR away from the TPU and run coax cables to a separate board with the MOSFETs on it. By the way, are you using MOSFET drivers?

God Bless,
Jason O

Jason,

Thanks!  I will definitely try to shield it with something (not sure what yet).  Yes, I am using MOSFET drivers, specifically Maxim's MAX627 drivers.  They are the reason this TPU has not been fired up yet, as they are still in the mail system somewhere... ::)

I should have some results in the next few days for everyone.  I hope this is it; every time I go over SM's words and his prototypes I keep seeing this design.

Before I forget, I should mention that I am using diodes to isolate the driven coils during the back-EMF spike, instead of using them to short out the spike.  I am curious if this will allow the spike to couple into the other coils better and help the conversion process.  This fits in nicely with the discovery of a diode on one of SM's prototypes (I came up with this idea separately).

Eldarion

Quote from: eldarion on July 02, 2007, 03:58:37 AM

Quote from: Jdo300 on July 02, 2007, 03:38:46 AM

Quote from: eldarion on July 02, 2007, 02:59:21 AM
Well, here is a pic of my TPU v4.  I have yet to receive (and therefore install) my MOSFET drivers, but when I do, I just have to plug them into two IC sockets and fire it up!

The board on the back is a delta-sigma ADC, and the MOSFETs on the driver board are IRF640s.

Hi Eldarion,

Nice PCB man! Just a warning to you though. You NEED to shield the thing or it will be worthless when you fire up your TPU. If the coils are pulsed with a fast enough rise time, you will get LOTS of RF emissions from the coils which will easily booger up the signals going into your board. I suggest placing the board FAR away from the TPU and run coax cables to a separate board with the MOSFETs on it. By the way, are you using MOSFET drivers?

God Bless,
Jason O

Jason,

Thanks!  I will definitely try to shield it with something (not sure what yet).  Yes, I am using MOSFET drivers, specifically Maxim's MAX627 drivers.  They are the reason this TPU has not been fired up yet, as they are still in the mail system somewhere... ::)

I should have some results in the next few days for everyone.  I hope this is it; every time I go over SM's words and his prototypes I keep seeing this design.

Before I forget, I should mention that I am using diodes to isolate the driven coils during the back-EMF spike, instead of using them to short out the spike.  I am curious if this will allow the spike to couple into the other coils better and help the conversion process.  This fits in nicely with the discovery of a diode on one of SM's prototypes (I came up with this idea separately).

Eldarion

I think we are all on the same page! Fantastic. It's good to know that others have come to the same conclusion regarding raising the inherent capacitance. Brnbrade's recent experiments also point to this being an important aspect.

The isolated coils hold, at the right frequency, in my case 300+V for the whole OFF period. The distance of influence on other metal objects is several feet. But this is as a voltage potential not as a current.

Will this held electric field transfer from one coil to the next ?
Will the electric field rotate at high speed ?

Will Eldarion's drivers arrive before the weekend ?!!

I've no idea how electric fields are going to mix in the center of Eldarion's TPU but I think we are all going to find out soon!!!!

Way to go. Good luck. Take things slow - we want you in one piece to report back!!

Cheers, Bob.

PS. Please let this be a success - my wife already thinks I'm completely loopy for spending the money I do on kit and chips and wire and...

All my kit comes by mail order - you see my wife's face each time the postie arrives with more stuff and I tell her it's a set of driver chips. "I thought you got those last week ?". "Er needed more - the last set er burnt out!!"....

Hi Bob:
   Could you tell me how you have the diodes hooked up.  As in are both cathodes towards the ground side? Would seem correct to me. Just want to be sure.

sugra

Quote from: sugra on July 02, 2007, 09:20:23 AM
Hi Bob:
   Could you tell me how you have the diodes hooked up.  As in are both cathodes towards the ground side? Would seem correct to me. Just want to be sure.

sugra

Yes. See attached.

EDIT: Attachment edited to remove the incorret 1H label on the inductor and to add information concerning using insulation.

   @Bob:
   Is this a sim or real life? 1 Henry is a really big coil   lmao. Kind of reminds me of HS when our teacher made reference to 12 Farads in a cap. Now a days, not so out there.

sugra

Quote from: sugra on July 02, 2007, 10:34:39 AM
   @Bob:
   Is this a sim or real life? 1 Henry is a really big coil   lmao. Kind of reminds me of HS when our teacher made reference to 12 Farads in a cap. Now a days, not so out there.

sugra

This is real life - 100% on a real scope results.

Try it - it's repeatable with any coil as long as you use two diodes and sweep the frequency to find the point where the held voltage is largest.

I used the sim. applet as it's easy to draw out a diagram to ensure there was no communication problem.
1H is the default value the sim. puts on any inductor drawn - I didn't notice it was just a quick drawing for you!

Quote from: bob.rennips on July 01, 2007, 07:06:06 AM
I think the follow shot is of a diode in the 6 inch tpu.

Great post Bob! This will be easy to implement in the current ECD.
This same diode could be in the wire bundle of the SM17 at the inner toroids. It is wrapped in tape but we've seen this shape of leads before in our electronic adventures of life.

The (17_32)? in the 17.zip post by Marco is a clear shot. http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,712.msg37542.html#msg37542
I am still curious about the SM17 having matching pairs of circuits. Only 2 sets, like the coil is spilt in left and right halves and 2 sets in each half of the circuit.
Only 2 of everything. Shown symmetrically too.

I am interested in what you think.

--giantkiller.

Quote from: giantkiller on July 02, 2007, 11:22:45 AM

Quote from: bob.rennips on July 01, 2007, 07:06:06 AM
I think the follow shot is of a diode in the 6 inch tpu.

Great post Bob! This will be easy to implement in the current ECD.
This same diode could be in the wire bundle of the SM17 at the inner toroids. It is wrapped in tape but we've seen this shape of leads before in our electronic adventures of life.

The (17_32)? in the 17.zip post by Marco is a clear shot. http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,712.msg37542.html#msg37542
I am still curious about the SM17 having matching pairs of circuits. Only 2 sets, like the coil is spilt in left and right halves and 2 sets in each half of the circuit.
Only 2 of everything. Shown symmetrically too.

I am interested in what you think.

--giantkiller.

I can't tell if there's a diode in the SM17 pic - too indistict IMHO. I do believe that diodes are a part of the smaller unit so it makes sense they would also be part of the larger unit.

You are definately on the money on everything being in pairs. Those two yellow cylinders in the center are 1000 volt caps IMO. The two Black capacitors right next to the coil have resistors soldered to the leads. They are right next to the coil because THEY HAVE TO BE. It would make more sense to mount them in the middle otherwise. And why are they near the coil ? - because they form an LCR, one for each coil, and the lead lengths are critical for the resonance. All IMHO of course. Alternatively the caps could be smoothing caps and the resistors are there to limit ringing on the output ?

One of the cut-coil pics showed the top and bottom coils looking like horizontal wound flat ribbon wire. I'm thinking the symmetry is top - bottom, as opposed to left- right. This might explain why this TPU is so thin and tall. Tall to separate the coils. Wasn't there some strange 'wooly' like material between the top and bottom coils ? Perhaps there is also a capacitance effect going on between the top and bottom coils.

I think the small toroids in the middle are high-frequency choke coils.

Quote from: bob.rennips on July 02, 2007, 12:25:53 PM

Quote from: giantkiller on July 02, 2007, 11:22:45 AM

Quote from: bob.rennips on July 01, 2007, 07:06:06 AM
I think the follow shot is of a diode in the 6 inch tpu.

Great post Bob! This will be easy to implement in the current ECD.
This same diode could be in the wire bundle of the SM17 at the inner toroids. It is wrapped in tape but we've seen this shape of leads before in our electronic adventures of life.

The (17_32)? in the 17.zip post by Marco is a clear shot. http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,712.msg37542.html#msg37542
I am still curious about the SM17 having matching pairs of circuits. Only 2 sets, like the coil is spilt in left and right halves and 2 sets in each half of the circuit.
Only 2 of everything. Shown symmetrically too.

I am interested in what you think.

--giantkiller.

I can't tell if there's a diode in the SM17 pic - too indistict IMHO. I do believe that diodes are a part of the smaller unit so it makes sense they would also be part of the larger unit.

You are definately on the money on everything being in pairs. Those two yellow cylinders in the center are 1000 volt caps IMO. The two Black capacitors right next to the coil have resistors soldered to the leads. They are right next to the coil because THEY HAVE TO BE. It would make more sense to mount them in the middle otherwise. And why are they near the coil ? - because they form an LCR, one for each coil, and the lead lengths are critical for the resonance. All IMHO of course. Alternatively the caps could be smoothing caps and the resistors are there to limit ringing on the output ?

One of the cut-coil pics showed the top and bottom coils looking like horizontal wound flat ribbon wire. I'm thinking the symmetry is top - bottom, as opposed to left- right. This might explain why this TPU is so thin and tall. Tall to separate the coils. Wasn't there some strange 'wooly' like material between the top and bottom coils ? Perhaps there is also a capacitance effect going on between the top and bottom coils.

I think the small toroids in the middle are high-frequency choke coils.

Thanks. The hidden part tells me axial leaded part. But that isn't difficult.
The tall idea fits with the verticle wing idea for RE emmisions. Think about this: ECD has sharp edges on transmiitter bottom and receptor top. They point along the horizontal plane and are offset by a vertical angle of 45 degrees. With what you noticed the horizontal top and bottom could be the sharp edge receptors. Otto and Roberto have done more with 2 frequencies than with 3. And that ties into the bipolar symmetry of the SM17 and other tpus. The ECD bottom is 6" and the top is 4". That also looks like energy compression which would be like an even higher level of phase intermodulation of the 2 frequencies coming in. 3rd harmonic?

--giantkiller.

I've been reading anonymously for a while and find this stuff absolutely fascinating.

I've been thinking about what's happening in the operation of these things and will write it out (as simply as I can) and hopefully someone will tell me that I'm wrong/right.

You're sending a moving EM wave through a mobius coil (not a perfect mobius because it doesn't cancel itself completely?) and moving EM wave is creating a standing EM wave in the mobius (double freq. of the wave). Then you're sending another moving wave that is double the frequency of the initial wave that collides with both itself creating a new standing wave and with the previously created standing wave (does this standing wave collapse or combine to create a larger standing wave?). From there you send a third wave that is the first wave frequency plus the second wave frequency through. This creates a third standing wave when it hits itself. Then as things move along the standing wave just gets bigger and bigger if everything is perfectly in sync ultimately creating a standing wave so big that the materials in the device can't contain it. Right? Wrong?

Well, I got my drivers just now! ;D

Fired two of the three drivers up at 1KHz and got the strange oscillation in the waveform seen in the attached video.  The scope is perfectly synced to the 1KHz waveform; this oscillation is way below 1KHz!

The scope probe was attached between the first MOSFET's drain (connected to a driver coil) and ground.  The same oscillation (perfectly in sync) was seen on the second MOSFET's drain.

This driver circuit is extremely stable compared to my previous attempts.  The MOSFETs get warm at a 50% duty cycle, but stay stone cold at a 10% duty cycle.  Rising/falling edges are nice and clean at the MOSFET gates.

More tests to come of course; just wanted to give an update.

Eldarion

EDIT: Overunity.com keeps timing out when I try to upload the video file, so here it is on my slow server:
http://www.falconir.com/MOV02114.MPG
DIAL-UP WARNING: 12.7Mb! :D

When I remember right, I have set a limit of about 12 MB per file,
so you should split movies for 2 shorter files then.
Many thanks.

@Eldarion
maybe it is some kind of beat frequency ( Difference frequency of the 1 Khz out of phase signals ?)

Maybe you can better trigger onto this beat frequency ,so one can see it better ?
Does your scope have a storage for the waveforms ?
Then set the timing to very long milliseconds/div and see where the beat waveform occurs.


Please recompress your MPEG movie files to DIVX.com codec or
WMV via Microsoft Windows Media Encoder to get smaller files.

A datarate of 300 to 500 Kbbits/sec for the video should be enough
for a MPEG-4 type encoding.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.

Quote from: bob.rennips on July 02, 2007, 10:23:50 AM

Quote from: sugra on July 02, 2007, 09:20:23 AM
Hi Bob:
   Could you tell me how you have the diodes hooked up.  As in are both cathodes towards the ground side? Would seem correct to me. Just want to be sure.

sugra

Yes. See attached.

For how long is the 300 Volts pulse hold there in milliseconds ?
Many thanks.

Quote from: hartiberlin on July 02, 2007, 07:22:59 PM
@Eldarion
maybe it is some kind of beat frequency ( Difference frequency of the 1 Khz out of phase signals ?)

Maybe you can better trigger onto this beat frequency ,so one can see it better ?
Does your scope have a storage for the waveforms ?
Then set the timing to very long milliseconds/div and see where the beat waveform occurs.


Please recompress your MPEG movie files to DIVX.com codec or
WMV via Microsoft Windows Media Encoder to get smaller files.

A datarate of 300 to 500 Kbbits/sec for the video should be enough
for a MPEG-4 type encoding.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.

Stefan,

Unfortunately my scope is a basic analog model.  Many times have I desired it to store waveforms....

The beat frequency (for lack of a better word) does something odd at startup though.  It isn't there at first start, then it shows up as a narrow pulse (same frequency, smaller duty cycle), and grows until it is like the video I sent.  I wonder if this is part of the "turbine effect"?  More likely it is just my wishful thinking. :)

I tried to re-encode the video, but my Windows Media Encoder install is botched up right now.  I'll try to fix it before I send another video.

Thanks,

Eldarion

Quote from: eldarion on July 02, 2007, 08:09:18 PM

Quote from: hartiberlin on July 02, 2007, 07:22:59 PM
@Eldarion
maybe it is some kind of beat frequency ( Difference frequency of the 1 Khz out of phase signals ?)

Maybe you can better trigger onto this beat frequency ,so one can see it better ?
Does your scope have a storage for the waveforms ?
Then set the timing to very long milliseconds/div and see where the beat waveform occurs.


Please recompress your MPEG movie files to DIVX.com codec or
WMV via Microsoft Windows Media Encoder to get smaller files.

A datarate of 300 to 500 Kbbits/sec for the video should be enough
for a MPEG-4 type encoding.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.

Stefan,

Unfortunately my scope is a basic analog model.  Many times have I desired it to store waveforms....

The beat frequency (for lack of a better word) does something odd at startup though.  It isn't there at first start, then it shows up as a narrow pulse (same frequency, smaller duty cycle), and grows until it is like the video I sent.  I wonder if this is part of the "turbine effect"?  More likely it is just my wishful thinking. :)

I tried to re-encode the video, but my Windows Media Encoder install is botched up right now.  I'll try to fix it before I send another video.

Thanks,

Eldarion

Great news that your circuit is up and running with well shaped pulses. Might be worth while seeing if that narrow pulse is affected by the placement of a magnet at various points in your coil.

Quote from: hartiberlin on July 02, 2007, 07:24:27 PM

Quote from: bob.rennips on July 02, 2007, 10:23:50 AM

Quote from: sugra on July 02, 2007, 09:20:23 AM
Hi Bob:
   Could you tell me how you have the diodes hooked up.  As in are both cathodes towards the ground side? Would seem correct to me. Just want to be sure.

sugra

Yes. See attached.

For how long is the 300 Volts pulse hold there in milliseconds ?
Many thanks.

After switch off, the pulse goes to around 550V oscillates around the 300V for around 10% of the duty cycle and then settles at 300V for the rest of the cycle. It will hold steady for around 100 milliseconds and then decays down to a lower level 50v-100V, again depending on the insulation used.

At the frequencies we're using 5000khz+, it gives plenty of time to pulse that steady electric field with another set of pulses  from a bifilar coil. The interaction between two such coils is very interesting.

Bob Boyce on the "Talking about phase' thread has said:

"I do pre-load the toroid with a DC bias on the secondary winding that covers the entire 360 degrees of the toroid. This is typically 155 to 160 VDC, and provides the dipole potential that I spoke of in my post on page 67 on the "Successful TPU-ECD replication !" thread. The incoming energy is superimposed upon this bias supply, which is sent to the load. This dipole potential does not have to be that high, but the higher it is, the more effective it becomes. Testing with this particular toroidal device has shown that bias supply potentials below 11.5 VDC result in below unity performance."

I initially read from this that the output coil should have an applied DC voltage of at least 11.5 VDC but then realised that there is a secondary per pulse unit.

Given that we are trying to transfer the 'kick' responce energy from one coil to the next. It looks like the receiving coil requires a DC bias. I've already proven that serial/isolation diodes will hold the potential on the coil until the next pulse arrives. So when a kick is transferred from the previous coil, the potential should still be held on that coil at a high enough level. Adding a good thin insulator between the layers of the coils seems to help.

Is holding a potential the same as applying a DC bias, in TPU land ?

Roll on weekend. Sometimes owning your own business is such a drag. Can't pull a sicky without loosing income, customers or both....

I've been checking out what can increase the capacitance of a solenoid - as measured by the ability to hold a charge when using isolating diodes - which I'm assuming is the equivalent of capacitance - and is the effect I'm after.

By far the best result has been obtained by wrapping a bifilar and then connecting in series. I can't do better than Nicola Tesla to explain this!

http://www.magnetricity.com/NeoG/Bifilar.php

This is common sense but the following increases the capacitance:

In all cases the same length and gauge of enamelled wire was used.

1. A neatly, wound coil, with each turn placed right up against its neighbour.

2. 2 layers of PVC tape wound tight between each layer added about 10%. I initially thought the more PVC tape the better as 1 layer added 5% and two layers added 10%. But more layers reduced the capacitance. I've assumed that two layers of PVC works better because the first layer really sinks into any spaces around the wire coils. The next PVC layer seems to provide a nice bed for the next layer of wire to sink into - eliminating all the air spaces. (I tried paper and masking tape between layers but this wasn't nearly as effective.)

3. The diameter is larger than the length of the coil.

4. For the same amount of wire a pancake coil was far better than a solenoid but not sure how you would wrap a secondary on such a coil if needed. Doing rotated pulses through pancake coils would be an interesting experiment - another one for my long list!

Quote from: bob.rennips on July 02, 2007, 05:45:41 AMI think we are all on the same page! Fantastic. It's good to know that others have come to the same conclusion regarding raising the inherent capacitance. Brnbrade's recent experiments also point to this being an important aspect.

The isolated coils hold, at the right frequency, in my case 300+V for the whole OFF period. The distance of influence on other metal objects is several feet. But this is as a voltage potential not as a current.

Will this held electric field transfer from one coil to the next ?
Will the electric field rotate at high speed ?

Will Eldarion's drivers arrive before the weekend ?!!

I've no idea how electric fields are going to mix in the center of Eldarion's TPU but I think we are all going to find out soon!!!!

Way to go. Good luck. Take things slow - we want you in one piece to report back!!

Cheers, Bruce.

The answer to the highlighted point is YES. You can capture the energy from the charged coil. But do it capacitively.... Soooo.... if you look at the coil like one plate of a cylindrical capacitor, wrap a sheet of aluminum foil around the outside of the coil and tie the foil to one end of a capacitor. Tie the other end of the capacitor to the circuit ground and guess what you just made? Tesla's Radiant Energy collector. But wait there's more! If the coil is being pulsed to charge it up, then add a coil to the receiving cap to turn it into a resonant tank circuit! Tune to resonance and take off from the tank!

God Bless,
Jason O

This is also a way to decouple the load from the driving circuit...

Well, I wrapped a coil around the outside of the TPU but wasn't able to couple much energy at all, regardless of frequency.

I am wondering if your original idea was correct; if I were to put some Schottkey diodes across the control coils in order to cause a magnetic spike on back-EMF that will couple into the next coil, etc.  The electric spike doesn't seem to do much good, at least as far as I can see.

More experiments to come...

Eldarion

Hi bob:
   Having a f... of a time trying to send this file. Three times now and fail. One more time..

too much hullabaloo in the other areas to put it there so here you are.

Quote from: eldarion on July 03, 2007, 04:35:30 PM
Well, I wrapped a coil around the outside of the TPU but wasn't able to couple much energy at all, regardless of frequency.

I am wondering if your original idea was correct; if I were to put some Schottkey diodes across the control coils in order to cause a magnetic spike on back-EMF that will couple into the next coil, etc.  The electric spike doesn't seem to do much good, at least as far as I can see.

More experiments to come...

Eldarion

Thanks for your feedback. I found diodes across a coil reduce the BEMF. I tried for while without any diodes - max BEMF but obviously max chance of burning things out! Try applying a DC current from a separate 12V battery to your output coil and scoping the output coil for anything unusual.

Refer to this circuit to see how to utilise BEMF as pulses into control coils.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2697.0.html

Bob,

Thanks for the info; I will order some fast reverse recovery time diodes and try those on the TPU.

That would explain my burnt-up 1N4007s... ;D

Eldarion