Hi,
here is a new "lego perpetuum mobile"
done from lego and some permanent magnets
and some rubber bands acting as gears:
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=wcy0tedYBMg
I hope that it is no fake.
Regards, Stefan.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3245.msg50759.html#msg50759
Quote from: hartiberlin on September 21, 2007, 06:55:00 PM
Hi,
here is a new "lego perpetuum mobile"
done from lego and some permanent magnets
and some rubber bands acting as gears:
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=wcy0tedYBMg
I hope that it is no fake.
Regards, Stefan.
Looks like the arm magnets individually rotate once per 1/2 rotation of the whole mechanism. I need to look at it frame by frame in more detail, but it also looks like at each 90deg each arm magnet cycles continously from repulse to attract with respect to each of the stationary magnets.
So its a magnetic planetary system, rotation and revolution. But in this case, the rotation of each arm magnet moves the bands to create the central rotation of the entire mechanism (which is revolution from the arm magnetic planet perspective).
IF this isn't a fake, I should think you could model this in software. And of course it should be easy to replicate as well.
I think I'll have some Guinness and come back later to look again!
Regards,
jeffc
Forget the frame by frame, just listen for the click of the switch as the camera moves off center obscuring part of the setup.
Quote from: jeffc on September 21, 2007, 07:43:46 PM
Looks like the arm magnets individually rotate once per 1/2 rotation of the whole mechanism. I need to look at it frame by frame in more detail, but it also looks like at each 90deg each arm magnet cycles continously from repulse to attract with respect to each of the stationary magnets.
So its a magnetic planetary system, rotation and revolution. But in this case, the rotation of each arm magnet moves the bands to create the central rotation of the entire mechanism (which is revolution from the arm magnetic planet perspective).
IF this isn't a fake, I should think you could model this in software. And of course it should be easy to replicate as well.
I think I'll have some Guinness and come back later to look again!
Regards,
jeffc
G'day all,
Me on another thread about the same device:
Hans von Lieven
Quote from: hansvonlieven on September 21, 2007, 04:48:55 PM
G'day all,
Wishful thinking FreeEnergy,
It is obvious the device is driven by a motor concealed inside the box it is sitting on.
When you have a close look at the rotor magnets and their behaviour (by going through the video frame by frame) you will see that the magnets do NOT impart rotation to the device but react to an outside force.
Sorry fellows, someone's idea of a joke.
Hans von Lieven
Quote from: RunningBare on September 22, 2007, 10:12:45 PM
Forget the frame by frame, just listen for the click of the switch as the camera moves off center obscuring part of the setup.
There is no real click sound. Just some microphone clatter.
But as always, I don't thrust a video not showing the whole setup. And there shall be no editing.
In this case the whole area around and below the motor is not shown.
Then he should also lift up the lego device from the table to show no hidden wires.
Finally he should disasemle the whole unit in front of the camera to show no hidden built-in motors and small batteries.
Period.
I have quicky analyzed the video. The magnets are not working in the way the "inventor" had in mind. The rotor is accelerating in positions where stator and rotor magnets are facing and approaching the same polarity, and retarding where the magnets are facing and approaching the oposite polarty - more or less randomly ::). I guess the magnets are made of plastic, and there is a motor under the table...
br
Vidar
Even though this video is fake. Is everyone in agreement that this idea/concept is not worth attempting? Has anyone try to replicate this?
Quote from: hanglow on December 02, 2007, 07:42:26 PM
Even though this video is fake. Is everyone in agreement that this idea/concept is not worth attempting? Has anyone try to replicate this?
The sad thing about magnets is that they will allways interfere with each other. The sum of repel and attraction is allways zero. The reason is simple: You cannot destroy or create magnetism on demand without using energy. Destroying and creating magnetism is the only reason why electro motors are running, but not motors with permanent (None-altering) magnetism.
No matter how you configure magnets, and no matter how you shape them, or mix it with iron, - destroying or creating magnetism cannot be done on demand - according to scientists and magnet manufacturers.
"Why don't you just turn the magnet around to create an oposite magnetism". Turning a magnet which is "busy" with attracting another magnet, is hard to twist - it recuires energy to do that.
So: Motors based on permanent magnetism only (Regardless if it is DC-electromagnets or permanent magnets), simply don't work.
Br.
Vidar
I think you are right. I'm already working on this last experiment. I recreated this wheel but I need to get some plastic gears made. If this doesn't work I'm going to throw in the towel. I already spent a small fortune on tools, supplies and lots of time. I think the stirling engine has potential. It's already known to work. It just needs to be sized up to run a large generator head.
.
Here are some possibly irrelevant thoughts.
We have one example of perpetual motion already. We call it orbiting the earth. The object continually falls to earth and continuously misses. So the thought is how do we get magnets to do the same?
Now here I am making assumptions based on casual observation. Magnetic fields seem to be ellipsoidal.. Could the metal being used to make a magnet be acting or transducing some form of energy such that the it finds it an easier path to travel. (Electricity, water travel on the path of least resistance) So what is making a magnet work is something that likes to go through Iron as it finds it an easier path! Perhaps the magnetism is being induced from a vibrating universal energy.( or these thoughts are stupid)
Back to the ellipsoidal shape and speculation on the inverse square law. Not confirmed this thought but a circle is x*x + y*y =1 so as the two bodies get closer together the sphere of influence increases as suggested by the inverse square law. (However if the influence is a spherical field why is it not the inverse cubed law?)
So perhaps we need some method of pulsing the influence in an ellipsoidal way, which is a coordinated connection with the main turning wheel.
.
@ All
I am starting to replicate the Lego device. :o
Any takers?
I've captured screenshots and have begun the CAD process. Because Lego blocks and plates have uniform features, the basic layout should be simple. For example, the green rotor appears to be a standard 10" x 10" Lego base plate.
... Lego Green Rotor(?) http://shop.lego.com/ByCategory/Product.aspx?p=626&cn=146
Because the builder appears to be using educational supplies, I assume the 2" magnets are available from a teaching supplier like Dowling Magnets, who I know makes 3" magnets -- bright Blue and Red for teaching :)
... 3" Teaching Magnets: http://www.dowlingmagnets.com/dyn_prod.php?p=DOW712
At this point the goal is to attempt simple cogging -- if there is any.
If anyone has suggestions, please drop them in the box. ;D
Cheers,
Yada ..
.
@Yadaraf,
That's great that you've decided to replicate the Lego motor. Unfortunately, I can't join you right now because I've focused my efforts on @alsetalokin's device. Lego motor replication seems more interesting but I don't want to spread out too thin and would like to reach a certain understanding of the other project first. At some later point I may also join you and everyone else who has interest in this. All the best and good luck with the research. I'll be following it with interest.
Quote from: Yadaraf on January 31, 2008, 02:57:11 AM
.
@ All
I am starting to replicate the Lego device. :o
...
If anyone has suggestions, please drop them in the box. ;D
When you post the video of it going, just make sure that it plays in reverse! ;)
Quote from: zerotensor on January 31, 2008, 04:41:07 AM
Quote from: Yadaraf on January 31, 2008, 02:57:11 AM
.
@ All
I am starting to replicate the Lego device. :o
...
If anyone has suggestions, please drop them in the box. ;D
When you post the video of it going, just make sure that it plays in reverse! ;)
@ zerotensor
You just gave me an idea for the background soundtrack. Thanks.
Yada ..
.
Man it would be nice if this simple motor actually works. Especially since it is made out of Lego's which are easy to get ahold of (of course). Has anyone tried to contact the guy who made it?
God Bless,
Jason O
Well, this guy replicated this Lego pmm, but instead of using rubber bands as pulleys, he uses cog-wheels.
His version does NOT work at all.
Check out his youtube video: http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=sVMXQwha7aY&NR=1
.
I was getting dimensions for the magnets (somewhere around 50 x 20 x 20) when I realized something very peculiar:
--- The four stator magnets are located below the four rotor magnets, which is to say they are oriented like in the WhipMag.
Now, it seems to me that if someone were faking this thing, they would have placed the stator magnets and rotor magnets in the same plane to make it look pretty, then made a video and called it a day. Perhaps -- through trial and error -- like Al they discovered that the rotor mags need to be elevated above the stator mags.
Hmmmm ... ???
I love puzzles.
Yada ..
.
Quote from: Koen1 on January 31, 2008, 06:06:43 AM
Well, this guy replicated this Lego pmm, but instead of using rubber bands as pulleys, he uses cog-wheels.
His version does NOT work at all.
Check out his youtube video: http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=sVMXQwha7aY&NR=1
@ Koen1
You know, when I first saw the thumbnail of that video I completely ignored it, because it didn't look anything like the original. All I saw were the gears and completely missed the point -- that it was an attempt to replicate the principles of "Lego 1" without rubberbands. Clever.
The gear/cog meshing in his device clearly dampens the overall movement, and there's no telling what he's using for bearings (if any). Clever, though.
Thanks for the link. It's encouraging to see that someone is attempting replication. ;D
Cheers,
Yada ..
.
Quote from: Koen1 on January 31, 2008, 06:06:43 AM
Well, this guy replicated this Lego pmm, but instead of using rubber bands as pulleys, he uses cog-wheels.
His version does NOT work at all.
Check out his youtube video: http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=sVMXQwha7aY&NR=1
@ Koen1
Looking at the video a second time, it appears that his rotor and stator mags are in the
same plane, which is not ideal for the WhipMag and possibly not ideal for his device as well.
I wonder if the builder posts to any of the magnetic/energy forums??
Yada ..
.
I personally feel that this motor may have some merit. Some people were talking about their being a hidden motor underneath the table or something, but if you look at how the thing is actually accelerating, it *seems* to be acting like it is moving because of the magnets. Now, with that being said, I didn't bother to look at the video frame by frame to see what the positioning of the magnets are. But even if they were going in the wrong direction with the wrong polarities facing each other, I would still not discount it immediately. Anyone who has been following the MPMM replication will tell you that the motion of the anti-gearwise stator magnets is counterintuitive to say the least.
God Bless,
Jason O
Quote from: Jdo300 on January 31, 2008, 05:49:31 AM
Man it would be nice if this simple motor actually works. Especially since it is made out of Lego's which are easy to get ahold of (of course). Has anyone tried to contact the guy who made it?
God Bless,
Jason O
I tried to contact the guy, wrote him a couple of PM's on youtube but never got a reply.
Quote from: Jdo300 on January 31, 2008, 07:00:33 AM
I personally feel that this motor may have some merit. Some people were talking about their being a hidden motor underneath the table or something, but if you look at how the thing is actually accelerating, it *seems* to be acting like it is moving because of the magnets. Now, with that being said, I didn't bother to look at the video frame by frame to see what the positioning of the magnets are. But even if they were going in the wrong direction with the wrong polarities facing each other, I would still not discount it immediately. Anyone who has been following the MPMM replication will tell you that the motion of the anti-gearwise stator magnets is counterintuitive to say the least.
God Bless,
Jason O
One cynical way to approach this is to suggest, as @zerotensor has done above, that the Lego guy is just showing backwards the video he has taken.of the device.
lol that's a very cynical view for someone who fills his own thread with tons of dodgy math but no proof whatsoever, and then starts insulting people who point that out... ;D
@Jason O
Something ive found interesting is how a magnet's tangential pole has more power to push or attract given its placement. Just play with two bar magnets , feel the field shape with one in repulsion and at a certian downward angle (magnet below another one like the stator magnets placement you talked about) you feel an even stronger push or pull then the normal head on one. What would be beneficial is to take into account magnetic field shape and density to hit the sweet spot when the rotor passes . Just a thought but the placement of the stator magnet has got to be the key so the rotor kinda sling shots off of it. If one would be able to find a formula that was for the diameter of rotor vs the diameter of the stator magnet and the time the stator takes to do one revolution and the time the rotor takes to do one revolution. Once the proper diameters were found , timing that interaction precisely so that the rotor magnet gets the full push would yield a system of high efficiency and incur much less loss because it would me a mechanical self resonate system . That would only leave the x and y coordinate spacing left to play with and would be much easier with the other variables eliminated. Joe
Quote from: Jdo300 on January 31, 2008, 07:00:33 AM
I personally feel that this motor may have some merit. Some people were talking about their being a hidden motor underneath the table or something, but if you look at how the thing is actually accelerating, it *seems* to be acting like it is moving because of the magnets. Now, with that being said, I didn't bother to look at the video frame by frame to see what the positioning of the magnets are. But even if they were going in the wrong direction with the wrong polarities facing each other, I would still not discount it immediately. Anyone who has been following the MPMM replication will tell you that the motion of the anti-gearwise stator magnets is counterintuitive to say the least.
God Bless,
Jason O
@ Jdo300
Jason,
I've seen your CAD skills. Nice.
If you grab a few screen shots from the Lego vid, and use the two base plates as "grids" you could probably dimension the device very quickly. Add to that, Lego blocks and plates have standard 1" features, and 1/2" centered studs (I think ... I'm picking some up today).
I've started the reverse engineering process, but a second independent effort would be appreciated. ;)
As for the magnets ... the bright colors and plastic case suggest they are from an educational supplier, thus size could be defined in either metric or imperial units. They appear to be around 2.5" x 0.75" x 0.75" or 65mm x 20mm x 20mm. I need to to do more sampling. Although I've seen educational neo's that were encased in blue/red plastic, I doubt these are neo.
Cheers,
Yada ..
.
@Yadaraf,
Isn't the beauty of constructing this is that it's built of standard Lego elements? Why bother with CAD? The only problem is that nowadays one cannot find just a set of Lego pieces but everything is turned into this or that construction. I guess the profit is higher this way. So one has to buy a bunch of unneeded stuff to get the full set of pieces to assemble what one needs.
Quote from: Yadaraf on January 31, 2008, 01:41:13 PM
If you grab a few screen shots from the Lego vid, and use the two base plates as "grids" you could probably dimension the device very quickly. Add to that, Lego blocks and plates have standard 1" features, and 1/2" centered studs (I think ... I'm picking some up today).
I've started the reverse engineering process, but a second independent effort would be appreciated. ;)
...
Cheers,
Yada ..
.
Hey Yada,
I looked at legos a little while back.
They do indeed have standard units, but they are their own special Lego units, they have a name for them I forget what it is. The lego website is very helpful. The Lego units unfortunately do not fit into any other standard units.
On the Lego website they also have their own free Lego design software, sort of a basic CAD program for Lego builders. An interesting feature is you can design your Lego thing in this software, and then you can with a few clicks send an order to them and they will ship you all the parts that make up your design. I think you can even pay them to assemble it and package it in a box for you like a custom "toy".
It is also interesting that the individual Lego parts are made to a very, very high standard of precision.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 31, 2008, 02:12:51 PM
@Yadaraf,
Isn't the beauty of constructing this is that it's built of standard Lego elements? Why bother with CAD? The only problem is that nowadays one cannot find just a set of Lego pieces but everything is turned into this or that construction. I guess the profit is higher this way. So one has to buy a bunch of unneeded stuff to get the full set of pieces to assemble what one needs.
@ Omni
IMHO Lego CAD -- a.k.a. Ldraw -- will be a useful tool for documenting this device.
.... http://www.ldraw.org
In any event, I have to use a computer to reverse engineer the screen shots, which are quite distorted and blurry. Specifically, I'm using a CAD program to rescale and resize the screen shots, which are skewed about 85% front-to-back. I'm creating CAD rulers as I go along, using the base plate studs [centers] to calibrate the rulers. I say "rulers" in plural, because the image skewing requires that I apply different rulers when dimensioning foreground vs background objects. Also, the rulers allows me to dimension "Lego unknowns," like the magnets, spools, etc.
Even obtaining the length of the rotor support braces is tricky, because the supports are black and practically featureless, making it difficult to dimension the end caps in particular. Difficult ... but not impossible. I've already caught one or two dimensioning mistakes, so a second opinion from Jason would be useful.
Having said that, I'm making good progress. :)
Cheers,
Yada..
.
Here is the official Lego free CAD program...
http://ldd.lego.com/
@ken_nyus,
OK, I stand corrected, then, if they have individual parts sold separately. Do you think when looking at the video there are Lego parts available on their side that would fit the construction? Maybe that'll help @Yadaraf.to assemble it easier.
Quote from: zerotensor on January 31, 2008, 04:41:07 AM
Quote from: Yadaraf on January 31, 2008, 02:57:11 AM
.
@ All
I am starting to replicate the Lego device. :o
...
If anyone has suggestions, please drop them in the box. ;D
When you post the video of it going, just make sure that it plays in reverse! ;)
Animation Shop is a powerful software to make video loops. You can hardly see the loop if you're lucky. Then you post it on Youtube, then a very excited @hartiberlin finds it and creates a link to it in this forum ;D
Vidar
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 31, 2008, 02:39:16 PM
Quote from: Yadaraf on January 31, 2008, 01:41:13 PM
If you grab a few screen shots from the Lego vid, and use the two base plates as "grids" you could probably dimension the device very quickly. Add to that, Lego blocks and plates have standard 1" features, and 1/2" centered studs (I think ... I'm picking some up today).
I've started the reverse engineering process, but a second independent effort would be appreciated. ;)
...
Cheers,
Yada ..
.
Hey Yada,
I looked at legos a little while back.
They do indeed have standard units, but they are their own special Lego units, they have a name for them I forget what it is. The lego website is very helpful. The Lego units unfortunately do not fit into any other standard units.
On the Lego website they also have their own free Lego design software, sort of a basic CAD program for Lego builders. An interesting feature is you can design your Lego thing in this software, and then you can with a few clicks send an order to them and they will ship you all the parts that make up your design. I think you can even pay them to assemble it and package it in a box for you like a custom "toy".
It is also interesting that the individual Lego parts are made to a very, very high standard of precision.
@ ken_nyus
Ken,
Thanks for the great feedback. :) I'm new to Lego, but see what you're saying about feature sizes. I have to change my original assumptions. No problem. It appears that the magnet size will be different from what I suggested earlier, which is good, because I was having a problem finding educational magnets of that size.
I'm off to pick up some blocks and plates, so later today I will have a better basis for dimensioning this beast.
A better video would help. :-\
Cheers,
Yada ..
.
Quote from: Low-Q on January 31, 2008, 03:03:49 PM
Quote from: zerotensor on January 31, 2008, 04:41:07 AM
Quote from: Yadaraf on January 31, 2008, 02:57:11 AM
.
@ All
I am starting to replicate the Lego device. :o
...
If anyone has suggestions, please drop them in the box. ;D
When you post the video of it going, just make sure that it plays in reverse! ;)
Animation Shop is a powerful software to make video loops. You can hardly see the loop if you're lucky. Then you post it on Youtube, then a very excited @hartiberlin finds it and creates a link to it in this forum ;D
Vidar
@ Low-Q
Vidar,
I hear what you're saying. For the upcoming video, I'm taking suggestions for the music that will play in reverse in the background. ;D
The device looks intriguing, nonetheless, and we might glean some obscure principle from replicating it.
I don't have a machine shop and I don't have beaucoup $$$$, but I do have spare time, which this "low-budget" project will most assuredly kill.
Cheers,
Yada ..
.
I have already replicated this twice. I used plexi glass to create it. As mentioned earlier in this post. It does not work. I spent hundreds of dollars on tools and magnets. I have video clips of it but didn't post it.
Quote from: hanglow on January 31, 2008, 04:36:27 PM
I have already replicated this twice. I used plexi glass to create it. As mentioned earlier in this post. It does not work. I spent hundreds of dollars on tools and magnets. I have video clips of it but didn't post it.
Is it that same construction or is something with gears?
Quote from: hanglow on January 31, 2008, 04:36:27 PM
I have already replicated this twice. I used plexi glass to create it. As mentioned earlier in this post. It does not work. I spent hundreds of dollars on tools and magnets. I have video clips of it but didn't post it.
Imho, you shall speak much louder about your experience.
Quote from: hanglow on January 31, 2008, 04:36:27 PM
I have already replicated this twice. I used plexi glass to create it. As mentioned earlier in this post. It does not work. I spent hundreds of dollars on tools and magnets. I have video clips of it but didn't post it.
This is my first post on this forum. Woohoo! Well I think I speak for us all when I say, please post the videos of your replication attempt.
I am also posting because I have made a digital replication of the motor without all the pullies and whatnot in lego digital designer. I know, I know...........Thanks for nothing! But I figured I would post it for someone else to continue. I don't really have the time to finish and I am having a hard time finding the pullie pieces. I am also pretty sure of my measurements(counted all the nubbies :D) I am attaching the file in a rar archive because I can't attach lxf files. I am also attaching some screenshots. Have at it.
Quote from: hanglow on January 31, 2008, 04:36:27 PM
I have already replicated this twice. I used plexi glass to create it. As mentioned earlier in this post. It does not work. I spent hundreds of dollars on tools and magnets. I have video clips of it but didn't post it.
@ hanglow
I see from your earlier post that you used gears.
Did you ever replicate with bands, like in the original?
Cheers,
Yada ..
.
Quote from: buggyirk on January 31, 2008, 05:39:23 PM
Quote from: hanglow on January 31, 2008, 04:36:27 PM
I have already replicated this twice. I used plexi glass to create it. As mentioned earlier in this post. It does not work. I spent hundreds of dollars on tools and magnets. I have video clips of it but didn't post it.
This is my first post on this forum. Woohoo! Well I think I speak for us all when I say, please post the videos of your replication attempt.
I am also posting because I have made a digital replication of the motor without all the pullies and whatnot in lego digital designer. I know, I know...........Thanks for nothing! But I figured I would post it for someone else to continue. I don't really have the time to finish and I am having a hard time finding the pullie pieces. I am also pretty sure of my measurements(counted all the nubbies :D) I am attaching the file in a rar archive because I can't attach lxf files. I am also attaching some screenshots. Have at it.
@ buggyirk
Excellent job! ;D
I think your stator "anchors" might be too tall, though.
Cheers,
Yada ..
.
Quote from: Yadaraf on January 31, 2008, 05:44:20 PM
Quote from: buggyirk on January 31, 2008, 05:39:23 PM
Quote from: hanglow on January 31, 2008, 04:36:27 PM
I have already replicated this twice. I used plexi glass to create it. As mentioned earlier in this post. It does not work. I spent hundreds of dollars on tools and magnets. I have video clips of it but didn't post it.
This is my first post on this forum. Woohoo! Well I think I speak for us all when I say, please post the videos of your replication attempt.
I am also posting because I have made a digital replication of the motor without all the pullies and whatnot in lego digital designer. I know, I know...........Thanks for nothing! But I figured I would post it for someone else to continue. I don't really have the time to finish and I am having a hard time finding the pullie pieces. I am also pretty sure of my measurements(counted all the nubbies :D) I am attaching the file in a rar archive because I can't attach lxf files. I am also attaching some screenshots. Have at it.
@ buggyirk
Excellent job! ;D
I think your stator "anchors" might be too tall, though.
Cheers,
Yada ..
.
I think your right it might be two sets of 6 flat pieces instead of two sets of 3 blocks for the stator anchors. I do think this tool will come in very handy for replication purposes. I mean no more messing with measurements, just look at the lego plans and there ya go. I mean this could even be a lego set a toddler could build. hehehe. If this does work like the whipmag and it's this easy to build, I will be very happy.
Why must everybody use neo-magnets in motor experiments? It should definitly be more inexpencive to use ferrite magnets instead? If it works, then make a new motor with neos.
Vidar
Here is a new one I did with stator holders that aren't as high. ;)
Quote from: buggyirk on January 31, 2008, 07:46:02 PM
Here is a new one I did with stator holders that aren't as high. ;)
@ buggyirk
You mentioned that you would try "two sets of 6 flat pieces instead of two sets of 3 blocks for the stator anchors," but I still count two sets of 3 blocks. However, the height and magnet clearance look better.
Using Lego stud centers of 5/16" as a rule, I think the magnets are around 1.25" x 0.625" x 0.625". I'm trying different sampling techniques to obtain more accurate dimensions. The stator mags seem to just clear the supports, so in your drawing the stack of 3 blocks should be around 0.625," perhaps slightly larger.
Q: What are the dimensions of one of the three stator support blocks?
Now I'm wondering if the "red/blue" objects are really magnets. Their dimensions are so close to Lego specifications that they could simply be red and blue Lego blocks snapped together. I'm looking at the Lego block library to determine if such a plain, featureless object could be created.
Keep up the great work.
Cheers,
Yada ..
.
Quote from: buggyirk on January 31, 2008, 07:46:02 PM
Here is a new one I did with stator holders that aren't as high. ;)
@ buggyirk
I just learned that a brick is 0.375" tall and a plate is 0.125" tall (Lego newbie). The three stacked objects in the support appear to have identical heights. If the objects were bricks, the internal height would be 1.125", which is way too high. If the objects were plates, the internal height would be 0.375", which is more reasonable and would imply that at least one of the magnet dimensions is 0.375."
Currently considering magnet dimensions of 1.25 x 0.375 x 0.375 (32mm x 10mm x 10mm) or 1.25 x 0.625 x 0.375 (32mm x 16mm x 10mm). I'll see what's available.
Cheers,
Yada ..
.
.
I'm looking for magnets that are roughly 32mm x 16mm x 10mm. The magnets below are 40mm x 9mm x 9mm, but are very affordable and worth trying while I find something closer. I'll have to move the stator magnet back 4mm, but there's room.
... and they are cheap ... 20 for ?4.95. :)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rapidonline.com%2Fnetalogue%2Fphotos%2F06058401.jpg&hash=ab39edbe7dc1011a09c05b605dd38e8cbd573fc6)
... http://www.rapidonline.com/productinfo.aspx?kw=magnet&tier1=Educational+Products&tier2=Science&tier3=Magnets&tier4=Ferrite+block+magnets&moduleno=72027
Yada ..
.
Normally i follow silently this threads about permanet magnet motors, but i have to say this,I just talked with the author , this motor is a fake .There is no motor under the table, but the short movie is played backwards.
I am more and more convinced about the fact that you can't extract energy from magnets, even the oc motor is a another soap ball
oops double post! >:(
Quote from: Yadaraf on January 31, 2008, 11:18:46 PM
Quote from: buggyirk on January 31, 2008, 07:46:02 PM
Here is a new one I did with stator holders that aren't as high. ;)
@ buggyirk
I just learned that a brick is 0.375" tall and a plate is 0.125" tall (Lego newbie). The three stacked objects in the support appear to have identical heights. If the objects were bricks, the internal height would be 1.125", which is way too high. If the objects were plates, the internal height would be 0.375", which is more reasonable and would imply that at least one of the magnet dimensions is 0.375."
Currently considering magnet dimensions of 1.25 x 0.375 x 0.375 (32mm x 10mm x 10mm) or 1.25 x 0.625 x 0.375 (32mm x 16mm x 10mm). I'll see what's available.
Cheers,
Yada ..
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I am glad to see you are trying so hard to get the proper magnet measurements. Yes, the stator holders still look like they are three blocks tall. The reason for this is that the program has no definition for individual pieces. So when three flat pieces of the same color are stacked, it gives the illusion that they are one block. I have edited the design again and made it more easy to tell what peices are being used. I guess I got stuck on trying to make it accually look like the original design instead of making it for ease of replication. :P
@v71
Thank you for you comment, but without any proof, and this being your first post, I don't really believe you. I am not trying to be mean, but you are the first person to accually be able to contact the original builder. Please elaborate.
I will dig up the videos and post them when I get a chane. First of all You don't want to use pully's. Reason being you may not get exact revelutions with the force of the magnet. You have room for the belt to slide. In my first design I used a rubber band which does not work good at all because it stretches and with the magnet force it won't turn correctly. So my second design was with a plastic gears. That works better but It wasn't perfect as I didn't have a cnc machine. It's probably just best I post the video so you can see what I am saying.
Quote from: hanglow on February 01, 2008, 01:18:54 PM
I will dig up the videos and post them when I get a chane. First of all You don't want to use pully's. Reason being you may not get exact revelutions with the force of the magnet. You have room for the belt to slide. In my first design I used a rubber band which does not work good at all because it stretches and with the magnet force it won't turn correctly. So my second design was with a plastic gears. That works better but It wasn't perfect as I didn't have a cnc machine. It's probably just best I post the video so you can see what I am saying.
@ hanglow,
Turbo just announced that he got sustained rotation on a WhipMag device, but accomplished this by placing rod magnets on top of the stators, which stopped them from rotating, but allowed them to oscillate. This resulted in a sustained rotor rotation of 300 RPM.
... http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg74663.html#msg74663
Implications: Turbo's device is starting to look like a hybrid of the Lego device and the WhipMag, and because the
oscillation phenomenon might be very important if not critical, I think the loose coupling afforded by a rubber band might be important to the Lego device. In my mind's eye, I can see the elasticity of the band allowing the rotor mag to oscillate [hunt?] slightly as it passes by the fixed stator mag.
Comment ???
Cheers,
Yada ..
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@ buggyirk
In your latest drawing I count two sets of six stacked objects in the stator support. Given that the Lego plate is the shortest Lego object and is 1/8" tall, this would imply that the internal height is 6/8 (i.e. 3/4).
The video shows only three stacked objects (presumably 3/8"). Could you please clarify?
If it's a "CAD-rendering-thing" perhaps you could make each of the three stacked objects a different color (red/green/blue).
The video is poor -- believe me I know -- and we will issue purple hearts when this is done. ;D
Cheers,
Yada ..
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Quote from: Yadaraf on February 01, 2008, 02:30:35 PM
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@ buggyirk
In your latest drawing I count two sets of six stacked objects in the stator support. Given that the Lego plate is the shortest Lego object and is 1/8" tall, this would imply that the internal height is 6/8 (i.e. 3/4).
The video shows only three stacked objects (presumably 3/8"). Could you please clarify?
If it's a "CAD-rendering-thing" perhaps you could make each of the three stacked objects a different color (red/green/blue).
The video is poor -- believe me I know -- and we will issue purple hearts when this is done. ;D
Cheers,
Yada ..
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Lego has two types of basic blocks. The thick block and the thin block. Three thin blocks equals one thick block. In the first version I made, I made it with the thick blocks. But based on your observations and my own, the stator holders seemed too tall. So I decided that maybe the design in the video just used two columns of six thin blocks instead of two columns of three thick blocks. This was the second version I did, but you could not tell that the thin blocks where seperate pieces because of the way the software is. And unfortunatly, the same goes for the crappy video. So, I made the third version to show you the accual seperate pieces in the columns. I have attached a picture of the blocks I am talking about. Feel free to ask more questions. I am here to help. ;D
Simple, i am the autor ;D.
I just thought it was enough like that.
@ buggyirk
I got it! Thanks.
I'm still trying -- like you -- to determine the internal height. I get 3/8", and you get 6/8"
Q1: What do you think the video shows? (I think it shows 3 short blocks. You?)
Q2: Could you change the perspective on your drawing so that the angle and lighting are similar to the first few seconds in the vid, when the device is just starting, making it easier to obtain dimensions?
Mucho gracias. :)
You'll agree that the skewing of the video makes it a challenge to get accurate dimensions. In the foreground the rotor magnet length might measure 200 pixels, but in the background the same feature measures only 150 pixels. Copy? Because of the different resolutions (pixels/inch) I have to use different rulers -- and compensate for height skewing as well. 5/16 stud centers help, but even the studs are not clear and appear mostly as blurs. It's a challenge, but very doable.
Cheers,
Yada ..
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Quote from: v71 on February 01, 2008, 03:09:45 PM
Simple, i am the autor ;D.
I just thought it was enough like that.
@ v71
I wonder if you would be kind enough to make another video of your Lego device, but include your hands and a voice track in the video as you start and stop the device. In addition, if you could include a video from beneath the table, that would be great.
This shouldn't take long and would answer a lot of questions -- allowing us to get on with other things. ;)
Many thanks.
Yada ..
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another double post. sorry :-[
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 01, 2008, 03:33:39 PM
@ buggyirk
I got it! Thanks.
I'm still trying -- like you -- to determine the internal height. I get 3/8", and you get 6/8"
Q1: What do you think the video shows? (I think it shows 3 short blocks. You?)
Q2: Could you change the perspective on your drawing so that the angle and lighting are similar to the first few seconds in the vid, when the device is just starting, making it easier to obtain dimensions?
Mucho gracias. :)
You'll agree that the skewing of the video makes it a challenge to get accurate dimensions. In the foreground the rotor magnet length might measure 200 pixels, but in the background the same feature measures only 150 pixels. Copy? Because of the different resolutions (pixels/inch) I have to use different rulers -- and compensate for height skewing as well. 5/16 stud centers help, but even the studs are not clear and appear mostly as blurs. It's a challenge, but very doable.
Cheers,
Yada ..
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In referance to Q2, if you want to , I have posted the accual lxf file in a rar archive in my last post. It is for the free lego digital designer program found here < http://ldd.lego.com/ > Then you can put either piece at whatever perspective you want. I don't really have the time to dop it myself right now.
edited- me = bat :-[
@Yadaraf,
I don?t think we should be polite towards intruders such as @v71. Recall there was a similar intruder in @xpenzif?s thread who appeared as ?@xpenzif .? with a dot, claiming he was the one who did the experiment and the experiment was fake. These clowns should be confronted at once and if they don?t produce convincing evidence for what they are claiming but continue to annoy the forum they should be told things one normally doesn?t want to hear, unless Stefan wants to ban them.
Quote from: v71 on February 01, 2008, 03:09:45 PM
Simple, i am the autor ;D.
I just thought it was enough like that.
You are confusing the hell out of me. So you are saying you are the maker of the original video and it was fake............................ Thank you for wasting everyones time.
If you really are the autor(as you put it) then post something on youtube that proves you are them with their screen name. Otherwise, leave us alone, and stop posting such bs ???
@buggyirk,
"There seems to be light on top of the magnet. If the stators had to be a specific hieght to keep the magnet in place, why would there be light on top of it. It is almost as though the legos holding the stator arn't really there for a specific reason. The magnets are just sitting in there. Maybe they are glued, but why build the little stator holders?"
I didn't get that.
P.S. With regard to the clown @v71, recall there was someone in @xpenzif's thread using a deceiving handle "@xpenzif ." with a dot who also claimed he's the author and that it's fake. It very well may be @v71 is that same one taking pleasure in disturbing discussions. He should know he's grounded and if he continues he'll hear no polite words.
@ buggyirk
Thanks for the file. I don't want to steal your thunder, but I would like to try some different angles.
Concerning your annotation and comment about "light on the stator magnet," I've been looking at shadows and lighting as well, and for that image I would conclude that the magnet is touching the bottom of the large brace and possibly the base as well -- which is why magnet dimensions and internal height are important. Basically, I don't see much clearance around the stator magnet.
Recall from the WhipMag device that the STATOR mag TOPS are aligned to the ROTOR mag BOTTOMS -- like a staircase almost. I see the same orientation in the Lego device. Thus, I have to conclude that the upper brace keeps the stator mag from being attracted "upwards" to the rotor mag. In my design I would use automotive double-stick tape -- and if the clearance permits I would apply tape to both the top and bottom of the stator mag.
Make sense? ::)
Cheers,
Yada ..
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Quote from: Omnibus on February 01, 2008, 04:42:56 PM
@buggyirk,
"There seems to be light on top of the magnet. If the stators had to be a specific hieght to keep the magnet in place, why would there be light on top of it. It is almost as though the legos holding the stator arn't really there for a specific reason. The magnets are just sitting in there. Maybe they are glued, but why build the little stator holders?"
I didn't get that.
Sorry, disregard all that. All that was a product of too much over analization. It makes sense to me now. For some reason I was seeing a gap there. My mind was just playing tricks on me.
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 01, 2008, 04:48:56 PM
@ buggyirk
Thanks for the file. I don't want to steal your thunder, but I would like to try some different angles.
By all means steal, steal. I am out for the weekend. I will check back on Monday to see what is transpiring. Busy, Busy, Busy
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@ALL
Apple QuickTime is good for some things, like slow motion viewing and image processing on-the-fly. Thus, I made a MOV version of the YoutTube FLV file.
In addition, I shortened the YouTube video to show only the first five seconds of startup, so that I could focus on dimensioning and studying components.
.. I've attached the shortened video in MOV format (267KB). 8)
If you adjust the brightness/contrast/color etc. and use slow motion to manually reverse and forward the video very carefully, you can get better idea of what happens during startup. After studying the video, those "rubber bands" may simply be string clutch-like devices that keep the rotor magnets moving smoothly. Another thing that puzzles me is that the diameter of the center spool is smaller that the rotor spool.
I hope to get some parts Monday and start building this thing.
Cheers,
Yada ..
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Using Buggyirk's CAD file, I rotated/resized the drawing as necessary to match the perspective on the video. It took awhile and I had to change some of the brick sizes, but I think the drawing can provide useful dimensions. The surprise is that the stator housing appears to have a 1" opening. The magnets don't appear any wider that 5/8" so that leaves 3/8" clearance [around the magnet]. The builder might have placed 3/8" tall 2x2 [or 1x1] bricks beneath the magnets, but I can't tell.
Cheers.
Yada ..
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I see that you are working around my fake experiment, now i want to tell the real story, since i think that this joke went far too much.
The experiment was a joke me and one friend of mine did to fool a guy claiming he had a permanent magnet motor.
The video somehoe slipped trhough youtube and things got out of hand pretty fast.
I don't know who posted, but me and my friend filmed the fake motor.
The video is backwards, if you don't believe me, try to play in reverse.
I don't care to be banned, i just saw how much money people spent on this silly experiment and i don't feel its correct.
Stop whatever you are doing, you will waste time and money.
Over.
Quote from: v71 on February 01, 2008, 03:09:45 PM
Simple, i am the autor ;D.
I just thought it was enough like that.
;D ;D ;D
Stay with us v71 and keep posting about your joke. It indeed went too far because into the strong ?religion? pervading everything around, the lego motor was a ?big promise? of the time. Some of its consequences are still visible, as you can see. But you might well be insistently requested to provide additional ?proofs? because that?s the way things work inhere (don?t ask me why) and, along the process, expect to be also insulted (it became almost customary to expect insults in response to certain opinions.)
In response to other posts of yours:
Your views about magnetic motors are correct.
I don?t think you?ll be banned just because you are not na?ve and not a follower, although there were several cases in the past. (The official accusation was usually that of ?disturbing the forum?, though. Ha!)
Welcome again,
Tinu
Quote from: v71 on February 02, 2008, 05:55:35 AM
I see that you are working around my fake experiment, now i want to tell the real story, since i think that this joke went far too much.
The experiment was a joke me and one friend of mine did to fool a guy claiming he had a permanent magnet motor.
The video somehoe slipped trhough youtube and things got out of hand pretty fast.
I don't know who posted, but me and my friend filmed the fake motor.
The video is backwards, if you don't believe me, try to play in reverse.
I don't care to be banned, i just saw how much money people spent on this silly experiment and i don't feel its correct.
Stop whatever you are doing, you will waste time and money.
Over.
@ v71
The universe works in mysterious ways. Assuming that you have faked the device, you were, nonetheless, inspired to do so. Using Lego bricks is inspiration enough. ;D I would never have considered using Lego bricks. We are all pieces in a very large puzzle. Welcome to the puzzle. ;)
When I assemble the pieces next week, I might be laughing with you, but then again I [we] might learn something in the process. I most certainly have learned how to use Lego Designer. 8) Many of us don't have machine shops and are looking for affordable ways to replicate the WhipMag. Who's to say the WhipMag can't be made from Lego bricks? I'm sure Lego would like to add a "PMM Kit" to their list of products, and I'm sure young kids and educators would enjoy playing with it to learn about magnets. If you follow Lego, they are now offering magnet bricks. Why? Magnets are fascinating. I intend to continue down this path and see what can be done with Lego magnet blocks -- for the next generation of investigators. I was young once, myself.
The universe works in mysterious ways, and sometimes the path to success is not obvious. Clearing the path is most certainly a group effort.
Thanks for your inspiration -- intentional or otherwise.
Cheers,
Yada..
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V71:
I have no way to verify who you are, and it really doesn't matter at this point. You have stated the intent and told it like it was. That makes you morally and financially separated from anything done forward. Sometimes we all just have to see for our selves. Case in point, the prendev. Plain out said it didn't work. My brain couldn't accept that, so had to make one and it didn't work. $400 worth of magnets now for other things.
So let them go for it. Its fun.
thaelin
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V71,
I'm having trouble locating some of the parts in your design.
Q1: Where did you get the magnets?
Q2: What did you use for the central red spool piece and rotor spool pieces?
Q3: DId you use rubber bands or string to connect the spool pieces.
If you can provide snapshots, that would be great.
Cheers, :)
Yada ..
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While I wait for my Lego bricks, I have this for encouragement (and entertainment).
... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StWZDqqBfJo&eurl (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StWZDqqBfJo&eurl)
Cheers, :)
Yada..
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