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This  Project is an attempt to re-create Keely?s system of Aqueous Disintegration.

Since trying to duplicate Keely?s system with acoustic resonators is difficult to do and prohibitively expensive, the idea is to use modern electronic equipment to arrive at the required wave forms.

On the surface this sounds like an easy task, you simply take a number of oscillators and generate the chords that Keely?s system calls for and subject some water to the resulting vibrations and, if Keely is right, this should work.

In reality there are a number of hurdles with this approach that Keely did not have to battle with, though the generation of the primary wave forms can be done with the same accuracy that Keely stipulates but with much more flexibility and far less effort.

My basic approach is visible in the attached diagram. Please bear in mind that this is a diagram of the basic principle only. As it has been pointed out when I first published the diagram, if I used that much water and if I was lucky enough to reproduce Keely?s results, there would be little left standing of the house and I would not be around to tell the tale. It was a fair comment.

Any attempt to dissociate water is fraught with at least some danger and the threat of an explosion is always there.

In the coming posts I will go through the system step by step describing the software and hardware being used in detail. This is a project that is currently being actively worked on by a number of people and reports of any progress and failures will be forthcoming as they occur.

This is meant to be an open sourced project, so please feel free to contribute and/or criticise along the way.

For the moment I will stick with the carrier frequency that Keely allegedly used though I have reservations about this, a subject I shall address when it comes to frequencies.

Hans von Lieven

Hans:

Can you tell us what the two devices are in the reactor?  Are they accoustic generators or speakers of somekind?  Would the temperature of the water change the frequency or frequencies required due to the difference in density?  Sorry for all of the questions but this project of yours is very interesting to me. I wish you all of the success possible.

Bill

G.day Bill,

As I said, the above diagram is an in principle arrangement only. In this example there is depicted a simple way of introducing the waveform into the water by means of two electrodes. This is the most direct way possible. This is also the approach taken by Stanley Meyers, Kanzius and Fleischmann and Pons in their cold fusion experiment.

I do not believe that this system will be successful as far as the Keely phenomenon is concerned, though for the sake of thoroughness it must be tried and thoroughly investigated.

Keely was working with PRESSURE WAVES. They behave in a different fashion to electromagnetic waves and are, in my humble view, an essential component in Keely's system.

This is one of the major hurdles I spoke of earlier that Keely did not have to contend with.

Traditional transducers are not of much use here as they do not have the required frequency response. Keely relies on the creation of powerful overtones way beyond the inaudible, something that can be achieved with resonators in an atmospheric medium, but not with loudspeakers, piezo electric transducers and the like because of their structure.

I am working on a number of ideas how to do this which I will publish here as part of this research programme, so please be patient for a few days.

Each stage of the above diagram will be discussed in detail, I am working on it now.

Never feel sorry for asking questions, it is for people like you that I am writing this.

I have always felt that each piece of knowledge that we gather as we go through life carries with it an obligation. The obligation is to pass it on freely to anyone who needs or wants it.

Most of what I have learned came from others and their willingness to share and to educate. Once having learned it it is now my turn to pass it on. Without that we would be still living in caves and throw rocks at each other.

Hans von Lieven

Hans:

Thank you for your answers, and I will be patient, although I don't like to be..ha ha. As far as your attitude on passing along knowledge and information, very well said. If everyone had your attitude, we would all be better off for it.

Bill

IronHead went beyond Meyers' work.  You might look up his posts on this forum concerning electrolysis cells and HHO.  Lot of good stuff there.

Thanks for the tip Grumpy,

I am aware of some of Ironhead's work. As I get the time I will look up his posts. I am sure there is some very interesting stuff there, he strikes me as a good man and researcher.

Hans von Lieven

Hi Hans,

Sound at the speed of light?

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/23467

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16599496/

A new meaning for Mach 1 (c ) ?  ;D

Ps,
Sound at light speed would make for some awesome headphones don?t you think?
Unless it liquefied your brain of course.

Sorry that what you will find on my basic S-Cell,  NS-T Cell  and  Plasma systems are not  scientifically documented .The stuff I am working on know I believe is just far to dangerous to post , at least until I get a handle on it all. Originally I did not build  to post or save the world . I only build for a specific thing  and did so till that thing worked for my own uses . This is why things were never really documented. Hell I had no idea there was this big world out here of people trying to do the same thing .

Thank you
IronHead

Keely?s system relies on the generation of complex waveforms constructed along very rigid and precise lines. Because of the technology of the day he was forced to use a series of acoustic resonators. This imposed a number of restrictions as to usable frequencies and relative amplitudes. It is my view that it is because of these  restrictions that Keely found out what he did and that modern replications involving electronics have failed to produce the same phenomena because the restrictions were not taken into account.

For instance, using acoustic resonators, the only way to increase amplitude of a certain note is to add more resonators of the same kind. This may sound banal and of little consequence until one examines the relationships here.

Take one resonator. If you now add one more resonator you increase the volume by 100%. Or by a factor of two. Adding one more again you increase the original volume by a factor of three and so on.

See what I mean?

The volume increase follows the same arithmetic progression as the harmonics.

This where Keely parted company with contemporary acoustics. His machines exhibited not only precise mathematical relationships between the notes, but also in their relative amplitude.

I consider this a vital aspect in the overall design of his machines.

I have in all my research never come across a comment that mentions that fact.

Modern electronic circuits allow incremental increases in amplitude. Therefore Keely?s system is NOT being replicated unless one knows of this. I believe many failures can be attributed to that particular oversight.

Hans von Lieven

>See what I mean?

Quanta?
Interesting.

Keely?s system calls for the generation of the same chord in three different octaves as the introductory impulse.

A basic major chord consists of three notes, namely the first, third and fifth note of the scale. In the scale of C-Major this would equate to C-E-G for instance.

This gives us a total of nine notes that are required as the audio input to the transmitter. Each note must have its own oscillator.

Furthermore the three groups have to have a specific relationship to each other as far as amplitude is concerned. That means that each group must have its own amplifier.

These are then the basic requirements the software must meet to be of use.

Fortunately there are a number of programmes available that not only meet, but far exceed these basic parameters.

The programme I favour at the moment is a Java application called JSyd. The beauty of this programme is that it has a graphical interface and it does not need installing on your computer. Simply download the file, unzip and click on the programme icon.

Of course that means that you computer must be Java enabled, though I would judge that most people here in this forum would have that already. The other beautiful thing is that the programme is free. The zip file is attached.

There is reasonably good documentation that comes with it.

The beautiful bit is that you simply drop and drag each component like oscillators, amplifies, mixers, speakers etc onto a canvas, connect them with patchcord in the desired configuration, click on each component and adjust the parameters and you are in business.

A click of the button will render the waveform, which is displayed on the bottom like an oscilloscope trace.

Once traced the sounds can be saved as a .wav file and replayed in real time.

The drawback is that depending on the complexity of the waveform, the sampling rate and the sample length, it can take quite a while to render the waveform. In other words you cannot generate the required sounds in real time.

For the generated sample to be of any use to us we need a second programme that can take the sample, analyse it, find a zero crossover point and loop the sample.

This way we can sustain the sound generated indefinitely. Suitable audio editors can be downloaded here. Both programmes are freeware.

http://www.snapfiles.com/get/wavosaur.html

http://www.snapfiles.com/get/audacity.html

This is about all you need to get started on the audio end.

Hans von Lieven

Hans:

May I suggest "Audacity" as a very good (free) audio editor?  I use it all of the time to record original music.  You can create hundreds of tracks, mix, edit very accuratley, and save into many different formats.  I am not familiar with the other one you posted. I would think that in order to get all or most of the waves you would have to be very careful as to which compression format you might use.  This would rule out mp3 tpyes of compression files as there is a loss when saved to them.  Perhaps some of the loss-less formats might be better.  There might be some subtle sound "information" in your triads that might not be transferred.  Just my two cents.

Bill

The problem with digital sound reproduction or creation is that the signal is a square wave, no matter what sound is produced . Look into it,  you will find the digital can not replicate a sound in its pure form. There will always be the square wave breaking up your sound pattern.

This is the nature of digital and its 1s and 0s or on and off
IronHead

G'day Ironhead,

You are absolutely right, of course. A digitally produced sine wave resembles a staircase, each step representing the signal in a square wave fashion for each step of the sampling frequency. Perhaps I am not stating this very well, but essentially, that's what it is.

I have thought long and hard about this, because it seemed to be a major hurdle in my approach. In the end I decided that it probably would not matter, as long as the sampling frequency was in a direct harmonic relationship to the audio signal it simulated.

My reasoning went thus:

Take a pendulum of one meter in length. Give it a push and it will complete one cycle of swing every two seconds or so, depending on where on earth the pendulum is located. Variations in frequency being determined by the length of the pendulum and the forces of gravity, which vary from location to location.

If now, instead of pushing the pendulum once every swing, you would push it twice, once at the beginning and once EXACTLY half way through the cycle with half the force each, the pendulum would swing as before. There would be no deviation as far as frequency and amplitude is concerned.

The same thing happens with three, four or n subdivisions as long as they are in phase.

That is why we can have sub-harmonics.

A resonant body will accept energy at its own level of resonance and reject energy far removed from its own level of resonance. That much is basic acoustics. The same is true for the harmonics of the fundamental frequency of that body.

My conclusion was:

As long as all the elements of the sound wave are in a direct harmonic relationship to the fundamental frequency of the body being operated upon (in this case a quantity of water) it really does not matter if the basic sine waves are fragmented.

Of course, though well founded on established knowledge, this is only a theory at this stage, and as such has yet to be validated by experiment.

This is what I am endeavouring to do.

Hans von Lieven

Keep an eye on what the electrolyser people are up to. I am fairly sure that the Bob Boyce circuit board puts out the Keely frequency of 42.8khz, and 21.4khz and also 10.7khz. They go to a 101 cell electrolyser, each cell getting a volt or so, described here:
http://www.panaceauniversity.org/D9.pdf
and here: http://www.bobboyce.org/
and discussed at length on the hydroxy, watercar and workingwatercar Yahoo Groups. I think Keely's orginal experiment had water in a quartz bowl which resonated at 42,800 cycles per second. I don't know how he tuned the bowl to this frequency.
Paul.

The purpose of the transmitter is twofold. It is a convenient way to carry the composite audio signal to the point of interaction with the body under study and  it will also allow me to test the validity of my theory of the role of regenerative feedback in Keely?s system of progressive subdivision of wavelength.

In the design of the transmitter we have to make two fundamental decisions. The first is what system we use Amplitude Modulation or Frequency Modulation. This decision is an easy one to make.

Keely?s system relies on precise harmonic relationships between the frequencies involved. Only AM guarantees that relationship, as in AM the carrier frequency is stable throughout. All that remains is to choose a carrier frequency that is a harmonic of any and all audio frequencies involved.

As in FM, by nature of the system, the carrier frequency changes over a narrow band, incompatible vibrations are introduced that will generate unwanted beat frequencies and nodal points especially in the higher harmonics where we need to have the harmonic relationships as pure as possible to generate the effects we are after.

The second choice we must make is the frequency of the carrier wave. To start with I will stick with a frequency band between 40 and 42 Khz though I have reservations about this.

I know that a frequency of 42800 Hz is widely quoted as the frequency that Keely used to dissociate water. I wish someone would show me where Keely actually says this. The only references to that particular frequency I can find is in relation to gravity, magnetism and electricity.

As to frequencies used to dissociate water Keely says:

?The sound vibrations of themselves have no power whatever to induce dissociation, even in its lowest form. Certain differential, dual, triple and quadruple chords give introductory impulses which excite an action on molecular masses, liquid and gaseous, that increase their range of molecular motion and put them in that receptive state for sympathetic vibratory interchange which favours molecular disintegration.?

And

?Example: ? Taking the chord mass of the disintegrator B flat, or any chord mass that may be represented by the combined association of all the mechanical parts of its structure (no two structures being alike in their chord masses), taking B flat, the resonators of said structure are set at B flat, first octave, B flat, third octave, and B flat, ninth octave, by drawing out the caps of resonators until the harmony of thirds, sixths, and ninths are reached; which a simple movement of the fingers on the diatonic scale, at the head, will determine by the tremulous action which is highly sensible, to the touch, on said caps. The caps are then rigidly fixed in their different positions by set screws.?


Sorry guys, but that does not sound like 42800 Hz to me. There are a number of other quotes by Keely in relation to the disintegration of water where he makes it quite clear that three chords are involved, not a single frequency as so many have stated.

Nevertheless, as a CARRIER FREQUENCY a frequency in the high ultrasonic might well be suitable so I will start with that frequency band in the trials.

The transmitter need not be an elaborate affair. A simple circuit involving two 555 timers was suggested and our first prototype is currently being built along these lines.

I am enclosing the circuit diagram here.

At this stage I would like to point out that I am not an electronics engineer. I can read and understand circuit diagrams, even build electronic devices, but the design of electronic circuits is outside my area of expertise. So please feel free to make suggestions and/or  submit circuit ideas that are suitable. I would be grateful.

Hans von Lieven

Update on the transmitter,

Had an E-mail from mramos. The prototype transmitter is built and is undergoing tests at the moment. Here is what it says:

OK, there was an error on the PCB, added a 2 two wires.  We have 0-50Khz
probably.  I set it to 42.9K to take picture.  Did not hook the
scope up to see the duty cycle, but the calcs were to be 50/50 at 42Khz.

New problem, the modulator is not working, so I assume another wire
missing.  The schematic capture missed VCC on two spots.  I will know in
about 30 minutes.  Does not matter what it looks like long as it works. 
hehehe..  If it make HHO, then we make a pretty one with all the wires
on the fiberglass.

The output is 200mA.  I will hook it up and see if I see anything with
no audio modulated.  But I just have a feeling we are going to
want to add a 20-30amp FET to it.  :)

Mike.

The photo shows the populated PCB and carrier frequency test.

Hans von Lieven

As I have said earlier, the use of simple electrodes suspended in water, with or without an electrolyte, is probably not enough to arrive at the phenomena Keely talks about.

I am aware that Meyers, Kanzius and Boyd do just that and it might work to a degree, so we must try this, perhaps with a palladium plated electrode a la Fleischmann and Pons.

To really emulate Keely however we must convert the RF signal into a pressure wave.

This is where we start to have real problems.

Keely used acoustic resonators in an atmospheric medium. As any gas will respond to any and all induced sounds and will resonate regardless of frequency we must have a transducer that behaves in the same fashion.

This immediately rules out loudspeakers and ultrasonic transducers due to their limited frequency response. Unless someone here can come up with a transducer that I am unaware of the only suitable system that meets these criteria is a plasma transducer.

Two systems come to mind here. First, the traditional way of modulating an ionised flame and secondly what is colloquially known as the ?singing Tesla coil?.

For obvious reasons the idea of an ionised flame is not a system I favour, it is messy, unpredictable at times, and there is a lot of unwanted heat.

The Tesla coil has its own problems since unwanted frequencies are likely to occur.

The (totally unproven) idea I am toying with is to use a dielectric container filled with ionised air or gas that is electrically stimulated into resonance.

The two proposed concepts attached might work. I welcome your ideas here as the whole idea is very much still in the concept stage and totally untried. I will not be able to put this to the test until the transmitter is fully developed.

Any comment or alternative proposal is welcome here, so please let?s have some ideas.

As ion source I propose either high voltage DC or a piece of radioactive material such as can be found in smoke detectors.

Hans von Lieven

Hello, Hans. What do you think about to use an electrostatic speaker to generate the pressure wave?. Thats only an idea...  :)

Hans:

I am just tossing this out there from way out in left field. I am familiar with stringed instruments (piano, guitar, etc.) I was just thinking what if, you had string of a given dia. and length which would produce a given note (frequency) and suspended that in water?  I know the water would have a dampening effect on the vibration of the string which you might be able to compensate for once you determined what that might be. And if the string/s were set into motion via an electromagnet, i.e. like a doorbell, would this not introduce the vibrations into the water at that vibrating frequency?
I know doorbells operate on 60 Hz due to the 60 cycle current but, could not one vary this current to produce any frequency desired given x dia. and x length of the string? (wire)  If you had your three stings vibrating in the water at your target frequencies would this not produce the similar effect you are after?  Maybe only a portion of the string needs to be in the water to vibrate the molecules at the three frequencies called for by Keely.

As you are already aware, I don't know much about Keely's work and would not know anything about it except for your posts. I was just thinking of a possible way to introduce your frequencies into the water in an efficient manner utilizing mechanical means.

Bill

Quote from: IronHead on October 04, 2007, 07:11:23 PM
The problem with digital sound reproduction or creation is that the signal is a square wave, no matter what sound is produced . Look into it,  you will find the digital can not replicate a sound in its pure form. There will always be the square wave breaking up your sound pattern.

This is the nature of digital and its 1s and 0s or on and off
IronHead

Kinda true, the output stage amplifier usually has a filter on it to slow down the slew rate..  meaning smooth it out.. can be done with something as simple as a resistor and a cap..  just remember audio output from a PC is far from optimal for re-creating a repeatable signal..  most use a codec instead of a DAC and are AC coupled.  If you want to use a PC, it's best to get a serial DAC that accepts a SPFID digital audio signal, and use a TL084 op amp (General Purpose high speed) to drive the signal to the amplifier

Another choice is finding a Sound Card that uses a DAC vs a CODEC and just short of the cap on the final output stage..  Think Turtle Beach makes some good ones a friend used for Signal Generation


Hope that helps

Quote from: allama on October 07, 2007, 06:58:18 PM
Hello, Hans. What do you think about to use an electrostatic speaker to generate the pressure wave?. Thats only an idea...  :)

G'day allama,

It's not only an idea, it's a bloody good suggestion. This is an absolute must try in my opinion. The poor bass response is not a problem here as I am after the upper harmonics. I will keep you posted on what comes out of this.

Thanks a lot. This is the kind of response I am hoping for.

Greetings from Australia

Hans von Lieven

Hello again. I was thinking about this, and this is a possible test enviroment. The squares on the tubes must be rounds. I calculate the tune tube lenght with v = 340 m/s (lambda is aprox. 8 mm at 42,9  KHz).
The refraction on air/water change can be a problem to make coincidence with the two pressure waves. The water depot must have plain walls, not cylindrical.

Good boy allama,

I am impressed. This is very close to what Keely did with his acoustic resonators. Please give me a day or so to reply to this properly as all of a sudden I can see a way that was a bit foggy to me only a few hours ago.

Thank you very much. It is such a pleasure to see talent and inspiration combined.

Hans von Lieven

Hello again. I was thinking... :D. Lambda isn?t critical, only if the water depot is thin, less than 8mm. In other case, the colision between the two pressure waves will be out of the depot center.
Are you sure about use your modulator?. The modulation must be a little erratic, because the carrier isn?t sinusoidal wave. Multiple harmonics will be present at output...

Great work with your devices... Good luck. ;D

G'day allama,

The whole idea of Keely's system is the generation of compatible harmonics way beyond the audible, The primary chords are designed to support the formation of these harmonics. This way incredibly high frequency pressure waves are generated that, according to Keely are capable of reaching right into the heart of matter and open it up to manipulation.

If you want to do a bit of reading up on it go to my website http://www.keelytech.com and have a look around. All the fundamentals of his system are there. If you have any questions just drop me a line, you will find my E-mail address there if you don't want to go through the forum.

Hans von Lieven

Keely holds that all matter and all forms of energy are fundamentally composed of three vibratory streams. He used different terms for these forces depending on when he wrote the articles before finally deciding on radiative, focalising and dominant.

I. The Radiative : called also the `Dispersing,' the `Propulsive,' the `Positive,' and the `Enharmonic.'
II. The Focalising: called also the `Negative,' the `Negative Attractive,' the `Polarising,' and the `Harmonic.'
III. The Dominant: called also the `Etheric,' or the `Celestial.'

In common terms this means that the radiative is a force that pushes away from the neutral centre, the focalising is the force that pulls towards the neutral centre and the dominant is the glue that holds it all together. None of these forces can be thought of as existing independently of the other two.

He says that:

The relations of the currents in every flow are expressible in thirds, and it is experimentally demonstrable that the relation of the three are in the order named: as 33 1/3 : 66 2/3 : 100.

As no current or flow of force can be composed of one mode of vibration only, but must always be composed of three modes uniting in varying thirds, we have 1 x 2 x 3 = 6 as the total possible forms of sympathetic coincidence, or, to speak in ordinary terms, there can be six; and six only, possible forms of individualized being.

These are what Keely calls the six orders of atomic subdivision, or orders of vibratory motion, and he names them as follows:

I.       Molecular.
II.      Inter-molecular.
III.     Atomic.
IV.    Inter-atomic.
V.     Etheric.
VI.    Inter-etheric.

It is not entirely clear from his writings just what ?uniting in varying thirds? means, though logic would dictate that these relationships are in terms of amplitude.

When it comes to the actual frequencies Keely used to create his effects we have real problems determining what they were. Keely uses musical notation to describe the arrangement of his resonators. Because he deals with pure harmonic relationships we must not understand his references in terms of the commonly used tempered scale.

The musical scale used in Western music is a compromise. I don?t want to get here into a long winded dissertation on musical scale construction, a large and compelx subject, so I will confine myself to just one example. On a piano there are white keys and black keys. The white keys are full tones, the black keys half tones or semitones.

There is a black key between C and its adjacent note D. This key is called C-sharp or D-flat, depending on whether you use a sharp or flat scale. In reality C-sharp and D-flat are different notes, close together but perceptibly different. There are a number of reasons why this was done, playability and instrument construction being the chief ones.

For Keely?s purposes this was not good enough. To explain what note he means he uses three different scales, a diatonic scale, a harmonic scale and an enharmonic scale. Few people today know what the differences between the scales are. On top of that we do not know what concert pitch Keely used. We do know that is was not A=440, which is in common use today, that was not introduced as a standard until the 1950?s.

What I am saying here is that the reconstruction of Keely?s system requires a lot of experimentation.

To illustrate just how difficult it is to decode Keely I append one of his charts explaining the harmonic relationships within his system. This chart was designed and signed by Keely himself and is one of the few things by Keely?s hand that have survived. The companion volume to the charts with the detailed descriptions has not been located. It has vanished together with all his other published writings.
If you know musical theory and the chart means something to you I would appreciate some feedback. There are a number of these charts, if you are interested they are in the files section of the Keelytech Yahoo Group.

http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/keelytech/files/

Hans von Lieven

Hello, Hans. I?m going to try with two big tweeters, an audio power amplifier and a program named tonegenerator (can play up 16 tones mixed from 0 to 20 KHz). I will post the results. Bye.

It absolutely amazes me that most researchers who are trying to disintegrate water do not study the substance at all but work from the assumption that water is simply H2O.
If that was the case the problems associated with splitting water into its components would have been solved long ago.

WATER (H2O) is the third most common molecule in the Universe (after H2 and CO), the most abundant substance on earth and the only naturally occurring inorganic liquid, a billion cubic kilometers of which reside in our oceans and 50 tons of which pass through our bodies in our lifetimes. It has been very well studied with a number of model structures having been proposed and refined.  Notwithstanding this, extensively hydrogen-bonded liquid water is unique with a number of anomalous properties. It has commonly been stated that no single model is able to explain all of its properties.

And we all thought water was the simplest of all things. Evidently not. Let?s have a closer look at it.

The first complication with water is that there are three different forms of hydrogen that we know of, each capable of combining with oxygen to produce a clear odourless liquid that on first inspection looks and feels like water.

The first, protium, is the one we commonly associate with hydrogen. It has at its core only one proton.

The second, deuterium, has one proton and one neutron at its core. In combination with oxygen it becomes D2H, which is known as heavy water. Deuterium occurs in water at about 0.015%.

The third, tritium, has one proton and two neutrons at its core. It is radioactive and has a half life of 12.32 years. It combines with oxygen to form tritiated water T2O. The low-energy beta radiation from tritium cannot penetrate human skin, so tritium is only dangerous if inhaled or ingested.

The three forms of hydrogen combine with water to form what we know as water and five isotopologues. (The isotopologue of a chemical species has at least one atom with a different number of neutrons.) This gives as the only possible combinations:

H-O-H     D-O-H     T-O-H     D-O-D     T-O-D     T-O-T  ,all of which occur in what we call water.

This is not where the complexity stops.

The following (in italics), including the animation is selected from available literature:

The water molecule may vibrate in a number of ways. In the gas state, the vibrations involve combinations of symmetric stretch (v1), asymmetric stretch (v3) and bending (v2) of the covalent bonds.



Shown below are the main vibrations occurring in water.

(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.keelytech.com%2Fvibration.gif&hash=d90c22d04e083b7d78fa3e4594b37f243db251b1)

The main stretching band in liquid water is shifted to a lower frequency (v3, 3490 cm-1 and v1, 3280 cm-1) and the bending frequency increased (v2, 1644 cm-1) by hydrogen bonding.

It is clear that life on Earth depends on the unusual structure and anomalous nature of liquid water. Organisms consist mostly of liquid water. This water performs many functions and it can never be considered simply as an inert diluent; it transports, lubricates, reacts, stabilizes, signals, structures and partitions. The living world should be thought of as an equal partnership between the biological molecules and water.
In spite of much work, many of the properties of water are puzzling. Enlightenment comes from an understanding that water molecules form an infinite hydrogen-bonded network with localized and structured clustering. The middling strength of the connecting hydrogen bonds seems ideally suited to life processes, being easily formed but not too difficult to break. An important concept, often overlooked, is that liquid water is not homogeneous at the nanoscopic level.

There is obviously much more to it, but this is what it boils down to.

Water is not H-O-H, this is only a way of talking. True, for most purposes the formula holds, but it is only true for the average body of water over a longish period of time.

The hydrogen atoms in water are not rigidly fixed to the oxygen atoms and have a tendency to move around and find new oxygen partners. A bit like our modern society perhaps?

Even in true H2O molecules there are at least three distinct modes of vibration that have different frequencies.

Water has a tendency to form clusters.

Water has memory. Water can remember a structure it was forced to assume by being made to regroup in the presence of some foreign substance long after that foreign substance disappeared. (According to some scientists this explains the workability of homeopathy.)

There are sixty three known anomalities of water. To go into this subject here exceeds the scope of this paper. Suffice it to say we are dealing with a complex substance that has a life of its own and often behaves in ways difficult to forecast.

Therefore the dissociation of water with a vibratory stream is not an easy task and should not be undertaken lightly without reasonable safeguards especially as to explosions.

Hans von Lieven

Hans:

Very educational material, thanks.  I have read advertisments in Popular Science magazine selling a water treatment device that changes the hydrogen bond angle from 115 degrees to 109 degrees, or vise versa. (I don't really remember the actual angles but these are close) what does this mean?  Does the hydrogen bond angle impact your work?  I will attempt to find the advertisment to get the accurate figures but I can't see how this could be changed by a water filter system.  From what you have told us, and I agree, water is everywhere and so simple we don't understand it.  Kind of like gravity.

Bill

G'day Bill,

I do not pretend to be an expert on water. I have had to study the subject out of necessity. Much of what I found out surprised me as much as it does most people. We are too familiar with water and do not give a second thought to what a powerful and mysterious substance it really is.

I suppose when you drink the stuff, wash your dishes in it, clean your teeth and your arsehole with it and flush turds down the sewer with it, it appears as rather prosaic stuff not deserving of further study.

Water is the key to everything.

Have a look at http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/index.html  it's a little academic and involved but it is authoritative and probably the best dissertation on water that is around and still understandable in the main by people that are not specialising in this area.

Good luck in your studies.

Hans von Lieven

water is everything and understandable in the main by people that are not specialising in this area.
that is right.

Dear All,

I got lots of inspiration from Hans?s Keely homepage
and are doing some "bottom up" experiments with vibration
exciters and piezo transducers. (and water)
As far as I could find out - "state of the art" transducers found
in ultrasonic cleaning devices can operate up to some hundred
kHz and are available up to 80W/per transducer.
The first "device under test" was a piezo resonator of a water
vaporizer. This stuff is quite cheap - you get spare resonators
for 6 Euro / piece. (maximum "power" maybe some watts)
I analyzed the frequency response using this "dut" and another
sonic "state of the art" transducer as sensor.
Using an audio analyzer (->200kHz) it gives quite linear operation
up to 200kHz(will analyze further with different setup) with a(first)
mechanical resonance frequency of 130kHz in this range.
In another setup, I operated the transducer while monitoring input voltage/current (with a current probe on my scope).
The interesting thing was - that operating the transducer at its (first)
resonance frequency makes it completely sensible for (almost static)
water pressure.
In mechanical resonance - the "q" of the resonator is definitely limited
by the "outside" impedance. Any tiny swapping/ water movement at
mechanical resonance effects the input current of the resonator by a high degree. If not operated at mechanical resonance - has no impact at all.
(...)
Even if the output of such transducer is not usable for water dissociation (we?ll see) - its a nice thing to proof and verify pressure wave domains (in passive or active (m. resonance) mode.
rgds,

Wolfgang

Keely Technology:

Breaking up "cracking" water molecules by using just one frequency is not possible because even if the needed transducers are build up by nanotubes are way to big (compared to the needed wavelength in water).
By using harmonic "stages" - its possible to generate a "beam" with lower (base)frequency and wavelength which "transports" the needed primary waveform (which should be somehow harmonic to the transport waveform) to split up the molecules.
This means water dissociation with acoustic pressure waves is a threefold process: Use one frequency to "cluster" water (get a handle on it, break up infinite recombination), use second frequency to modulate these clusters - form  wavefronts, use third frequency to break up the molecules.
I think (and this is also some outcome of my experiments) that the way how these 3 frequencies are applied, their amplitude as well as the envelope of each waveform and their phase relation have to be under tight control. Means - carefully clustering, then modulating - and finally dissociating. (...)(so far)

rgds,

Wolfgang

G'day all,

Please you electronics guys, have a look at the transmitter circuit on page 2 of this thread and tell me why the modulator part is not functioning as it should. Any bright ideas on how to improve it?

Thanks fellas,

Hans von Lieven

Quote from: hansvonlieven on October 16, 2007, 03:59:36 PM
G'day all,

Please you electronics guys, have a look at the transmitter circuit on page 2 of this thread and tell me why the modulator part is not functioning as it should. Any bright ideas on how to improve it?

Thanks fellas,

Hans von Lieven

Guys?  Fellas?  Do I hear a sexist attitude?  You handsome devil, you!

I would say that the circuit you show is not an AM modulator in any sense.  It is apparently a PWM modulator which puts out an unfiltered carrier (originally approximately square from first 555) that gets PWM'd to form a PWM replica of the "FM" input signal.  It won't do that very well either, since there is no output anti-alias filter to integrate the pulses into a model of the "FM" input.  The circuit appears rather pointless to me, since at best, if the proper low-pass filter was added, all it would do would be to reproduce whatever you fed into the "FM" input.  Maybe I am not understanding what you are trying to do, but I can tell you that what is shown is not an AM modulator.

An amplitude modulator performs the multiply function.  If the object of the game is to amplitude modulate a single-frequency sine wave carrier then wat you must do is control the amplitude in a linear fashion using a modulating signal...i.e. multiply by a number ranging from zero to one.  There are multiplier chips available.  MC1494, 1495 and 1496 are some real oldies but goodies Motorola used to make.

Analog Devices, Burr Brown (now TI) and others also made/make linear volume control chips of very high quality...these are simply multipliers optimized for low noise audio-band work and can also be had in log input (for "linear voltage to decibel" control schemes).  They are also known as electronic attenuators.  Finding one of wide bandwidth beyond normal audio range might narrow the selections down.  Analog multiplier is a term to search.  Gilbert cell is another, since the differential amplifier with current source known as the Gilbert cell forms the basis for most high quality multipliers.

Of course, the modern "code-head" design engineer might jump immediately to DSP chips given the task to provide one or more AM modulators.  What could be easier than that?  Another modern but non-software-intensive approach might be to use a "multiplying DAC" which is a digital-to-analog converter chip which multiplies a reference input by a digital number.  The reference input would be your sine wave carrier and the digital input would be the modulating waveform "multplier".

Be aware that when you do AM you will generate sidebands consisting of the sum and difference frequencies between the carrier and modulating signal.  

There...how's that for information overload!  And from a girl, too!  LOL

Linda

Linda darling you have outdone yourself you gorgeous creature you.

No more sexist remarks or omissions from me :-)

As to:  Be aware that when you do AM you will generate sidebands consisting of the sum and difference frequencies between the carrier and modulating signal.

Yes, I know. This is why I cannot use a transmitter that uses a crystal to generate the carrier frequency, pity really as it would have been easy to buy one off the shelf . The carrier frequency must be tuned (at least in my opinion) to a harmonic of the audio waves being fed in which have to be also in a harmonic relationship to each other. According to Keely stray frequencies are to be avoided at all costs.

Thanks for your contribution, this gives us something to work with.

Hans von Lieven

As I pointed out a while ago, AD9835 chip and his "brothers"
are quite nice chips (numerical oscillators).
Can generate sinusodial output from 0.01 to 20Meg with 0.01Hz
steps, locked to a master clock.
Still thinking if I should prototype a board with 8 or 16 such
oscillators.
Don?t forget the CA3080 for use as modulator ...
Or use a ring modulator..... lots of options.

I thought of doing a board with 8 to 16 AD9835 chips -
this gives 8 to 16 completely independant 0.01 to 20 MHz
oscillators, put a TCXCO master clock on the board - maybe
with GPS tuning feature and some options for analog modulation -
and envelopes.
This stuff should be connected via a controller to usb.

I got stuck with the AD9835 retail price - its 21$ a piece -
and 6$ if I take 100pcs.

With such a setup - you don?t need a modulator.

If somebody is interested - pls. contact me.

G'day all,

What do you electronics guys [ sorry Linda, or chicks :-) ] think of this as a simple way to get to my composite signal?

Hans von Lieven


EDIT   Sorry I missed to post the link

http://www.zen22142.zen.co.uk/spice/ammod.htm

Basically you want to amplitude modulate a carrier signal.

As simple as it  gets, might not fit the bill without a linear
amp output though.
http://sci-toys.com/scitoys/scitoys/radio/am_transmitter.html

And this one too.Though, it seems to need some mods,
http://users.usinternet.com/kyledrake/schematic/

There?s probably a lot of ways to amplitude modulate a carrier signal, this was just a couple
of simple ones.

Cliff,

Sorry all,

I forgot to add the link in my previous post.

http://www.zen22142.zen.co.uk/spice/ammod.htm

Thanks argona, will check it out

Hans von Lieven

Quote from: hansvonlieven on October 19, 2007, 05:28:24 PM

http://www.zen22142.zen.co.uk/spice/ammod.htm

Hi Hans,

Are you sure that amplitude modulation is what you want to do?  I don't know what Keely was up to, but I can tell you that generating a 43KHz carrier, nicely amplitude modulated by audio frequencies, would be really hard to do by mechanical means, and isn't the sort of thing you could do with resonators.

If amplitude modulation is what you want to do, then the circuit you posted probably won't suffice.  It needs a very large difference between the carrier frequency and modulation frequency to do a good job, and your carrier frequency really isn't high enough for that.

You'd be better off making a modulator based on a good balanced mixer like the popular SA612:

http://www.nxp.com/acrobat_download/datasheets/SA612A.pdf

it isn't hard to find modulation circuits of many sorts using this chip on the web.

Cheers,

Mr. Entropy

G'day Entropy,

I really would like to try an ultrasonic carrier in the 40 to 50 KHz range just because it has been bandied around so much. I am not convinced it will help though it has to be attempted even if only to debunk an old idea.

So, here is another design for an ultrasonic transmitter that might just do the job I have in mind. Let me know please what you think.

Hans von Lieven

Hi Hans,

Quote from: hansvonlieven on October 20, 2007, 05:58:02 PM
So, here is another design for an ultrasonic transmitter that might just do the job I have in mind. Let me know please what you think.

That one looks quite good.Ã,  Note:

1) you should adjust the filter after the relaxation oscillator if you change the carrier frequency, to keep the carrier nice and sinusoidal.

2) If you're modulating with a PC sound card, you're not going to need the microphone amplifier.Ã,  Or you could just swap R2 for a larger-valued resistor to reduce the gain but keep the gain control.

Quote
I really would like to try an ultrasonic carrier in the 40 to 50 KHz range just because it has been bandied around so much. I am not convinced it will help though it has to be attempted even if only to debunk an old idea.

The carrier is fine.Ã,  It's just amplitude modulation that's weird.Ã,  I'd expect a system of resonators to create a simple superposition of the resonator frequencies.Ã,  When you do amplitude modulation, you actually change the frequencies produced.Ã,  Putting frequencies A and B through a multiplier outputs frequencies A+B and A-B.

I ask, because its actually possible to make a modulator that allows a _stereo_ PC sound card to produce _any_ arbitrarily complex sound in any 30KHz band (i.e., 20-50KHz, 15-45KHz, etc.).Ã,  So if AM isn't really what you want, you have other options.

Cheers,

Mr. Entropy

Thanks Entropy,

Electronics isn't really my bag, I understand it in broad strokes, but when it comes to detail I am way out of my area. I really appreciate your help.

Hans von Lieven

Hi.  A useable circuit for beginners exploring the 40 khz range would be:

http://www.electronic-circuits-diagrams.com/audioimages/audiockt10.shtml

It's the only (simple) one I've found operating in that range that is variable frequency.
Another possible implimentation might be found at
http://coecsl.ece.uiuc.edu/ge423/spring05/group9/ultrasonic.html

Sincerely,
Mike Nolley

G'day Entropy and all,

QuoteThe carrier is fine.  It's just amplitude modulation that's weird.  I'd expect a system of resonators to create a simple superposition of the resonator frequencies.  When you do amplitude modulation, you actually change the frequencies produced.  Putting frequencies A and B through a multiplier outputs frequencies A+B and A-B.

I ask, because its actually possible to make a modulator that allows a _stereo_ PC sound card to produce _any_ arbitrarily complex sound in any 30KHz band (i.e., 20-50KHz, 15-45KHz, etc.).  So if AM isn't really what you want, you have other options. 

I am really out of my depth on this one. Can you or someone please explain to me how this works, perhaps a circuit diagram etc.

Hans von Lieven

Hi Hans,

Quote from: hansvonlieven on November 01, 2007, 03:52:01 PM

Quote
I ask, because its actually possible to make a modulator that allows a _stereo_ PC sound card to produce _any_ arbitrarily complex sound in any 30KHz band (i.e., 20-50KHz, 15-45KHz, etc.).  So if AM isn't really what you want, you have other options. 

I am really out of my depth on this one. Can you or someone please explain to me how this works, perhaps a circuit diagram etc.

Hans von Lieven

I'm happy to...  I can explain this using trig identities or complex number arithmetic.  The latter is more modern and less complicated, but it's a little more esoteric, so I guess I'll use the trig identities.

Start with 2 carrier signals at frequency w, in radians/sec, offset by 90 degrees, so you have:

c(t) = cos(wt) and d(t) = sin(wt)

Your stereo PC sound card has 2 channels, each good to at least 15KHz, i.e., they can each generate an arbitrary waveform made by summing frequencies <= 15KHz.  let's call the signals you output from these channels x(t) and y(t), and lets program the sound card to generate signals in quadrature with arbitrary amplitude A, frequency f and phase offset g, so you have:

x(t) = Acos(ft+g) and y(t) = Asin(ft+g)


Now, the modulator you want uses 2 multipliers and a difference to produce output:

o(t) = c(t)*x(t) - d(t)*y(t)

Lets see what comes out for the input we have programmed:

o(t) = cos(wt)*Acos(ft+g) - sin(wt)*Asin(ft+g)

= A (cos(wt)*cos(ft+g) - sin(wt)*sin(ft+g))

= A cos(wt+ft+g) , by trig identity. see, for example: http://www.clarku.edu/~djoyce/trig/identities.html

= A cos( (w+f)*t + g)

And that is a pure tone, with our arbitrary amplitude A and phase offset g, but at frequency w+f!  If our quadrature carriers are at, say, w = 30KHz, and our quadrature sound card outputs are at f = 15KHz, then the output is a pure tone at f+30KHz = 45KHz, with whatever amplitude and phase you like.

You can make pure tones up to 15KHz lower than the carrier, too.  Lets try:

x(t) = Acos(ft+g) and y(t) = -Asin(ft+g)

so

o(t) = A (cos(wt)*cos(ft+g) + sin(wt)*sin(ft+g))

= A (cos(wt)*cos(-ft-g) - sin(wt)*sin(-ft-g))

= A cos( (w-f)*t - g)

Finally, note that when you add any two pairs of signals from the sound card together, the output at the end of the modulator is simply the sum of the outputs you would get from each pair individually.  So, if the output you want is the sum of arbitrary tones between 15 and 45KHz, use 30KHz carriers and have the sound card produce the simple sum of the quadrature signals that produce those tones.


So, for an actual modulator circuit, you need 2 good multipliers just like the one you have in that AM modulator you posted, you need a difference, which you can find in any op-amp cookbook, and you need carriers in quadrature.

The easiest way to make quadrature carriers is to use a digital crystal oscillator at 4X the frequency into a divide by 4 counter.  The counter bits cycle

00
01
10
11

instead of the last bit, use the XOR of the two bits, so you have

00
01
11
10

And that is 2 signals at the carrier frequency in quadrature.  Pass them through identical filters to make them nice and sinusoidal, and your carriers are done.

Good luck,

Mr. Entropy

P.S.  Your soundcard may not be able to reproduce frequencies < 20Hz or so, in which case there will be a 40Hz band around the carrier that you can't use.  You should have no problem putting the carrier at a frequency you can afford to drop -- 40Hz is quite narrow.

Hans

Quote from: miken277 on October 28, 2007, 11:55:21 PM
Hi.  A useable circuit for beginners exploring the 40 khz range would be:

http://www.electronic-circuits-diagrams.com/audioimages/audiockt10.shtml

It's the only (simple) one I've found operating in that range that is variable frequency.
Another possible implimentation might be found at
http://coecsl.ece.uiuc.edu/ge423/spring05/group9/ultrasonic.html

Sincerely,
Mike Nolley

ATTENTION

In 1 linked circuit is somthig WRONG in receiver schematics  !!

R13 R14 /D2 D4
cant produce the needed voltage level to the IC.
It need  some parts mor in schematic to do that.

G.Pese

So you will find out if you will use this schema !

ADD:

Circuits like this was constructONLY for use as remote-control
for Ultro sound cleaner or vaporizer  it give not enough power.

G.P

G'day Entropy and all,

Thanks for the information, now I have to find someone who can use this information to design a circuit for me :-)

The 40 Hz envelope does not worry me. 32 Hz is a 16 ft open organ pipe. I seriously doubt Keely was using acoustic resonators as big as this.

Hans von Lieven

Quote from: hansvonlieven on November 04, 2007, 05:13:58 PM
Thanks for the information, now I have to find someone who can use this information to design a circuit for me :-)

Yeah, I'm afraid I can't help you there -- I couldn't confidently design it without actually building it.  I could help you muddle through if you have a scope and a solderless breadboard, but since electronics isn't your thing, I'm guessing you don't.

Cheers,

Mr. Entropy

Here is available a simple square wave oscillator kit that will generated set frequencies at 50% duty cycle.

http://www.electronics123.com/s.nl/it.A/id.342/.f

R1 and R2 can be swapped out with a pot to fine tune freq.

Cheap and it works, but I've yet to add the pots.

Turtle

Hi KT

As I'm sure you are aware, that cct is effectively one half of Lawtons circuit, but as such, and with preset frequencies, not very versatile.

No offence intended, but I had to chuckle when I looked at Mr Entropy's post somewhere above. Hans had just stated that he was a little out of his depth with electronics and so, as if to rub it in, Mr Entrophy follows with a post containing quite detailed formulas and equations.  Why go for the less complicated, 'complex number arithmetic' when you can have 'trig identities', eh!  Perhaps it's just me, but I thought it was funny!

However, this is why having no technical or scientific background can make progress difficult, in that if you do stumble across something that works, you won't necessarily know why it works or how to explain it.

Farrah Day

Quote from: hansvonlieven on November 04, 2007, 05:13:58 PM
The 40 Hz envelope does not worry me. 32 Hz is a 16 ft open organ pipe. I seriously doubt Keely was using acoustic resonators as big as this.
Hans von Lieven

Excuse me if I butt in through a thread without understanding, but are you after 40Hz or 40Khz?

You may need 40 Hz for some other reason. If not, I think the wavelength (in water) of 42Khz is
around the 34mm mark.
Paul.

Quote from: Farrah Day on November 08, 2007, 05:23:50 AM
No offence intended, but I had to chuckle when I looked at Mr Entropy's post somewhere above. Hans had just stated that he was a little out of his depth with electronics and so, as if to rub it in, Mr Entrophy follows with a post containing quite detailed formulas and equations.Ã,  Why go for the less complicated, 'complex number arithmetic' when you can have 'trig identities', eh!Ã,  Perhaps it's just me, but I thought it was funny!

Ah, but there was no electronics in that post, miss Day --Ã,  just math.Ã,  Plain ol' algebra and trigonometry that you _should_ remember from high school.Ã,  If Hans can get someone to design and/or build a circuit along those lines, he will need to know that math in order to program his sound card correctly.

I expect that Hans can do the math.Ã,  If not, he can research it a bit and do it tommorrow.Ã,  He has, after all, done a lot of research in his time.

Cheers,

Mr. Entropy

G'day Entropy and all,

I am sorry I only saw this just now otherwise I would have said something sooner.

You are absolutely correct in assuming that the math part did not exactly faze me. It was very helpful and enables me to gain a better understanding of what I am trying to build. After some study I believe I completely understood what you were trying to teach me. I am grateful.

I still don't quite understand how that translates into components and circuit design but it is a good starting point and with a bit of diligent work I am sure I will get there.

As a retired engineer I have had to add up a few figures every now and then over the years :-)

Thanks again for your contribution. It is appreciated.

Hans von Lieven

Hello Hans,

spricht Du deutsch ?

Anyway here is something which I found a few years ago. This might be of great interest for you :

Macrosonixs corp. Beginning in 1998
http://www.americanscientist.org/template/AssetDetail/assetid/21006/page/1?&print=yes (http://www.americanscientist.org/template/AssetDetail/assetid/21006/page/1?&print=yes)

and today :

http://www.macrosonix.com/motors/motorapps.htm (http://www.macrosonix.com/motors/motorapps.htm)

I am pretty short in time and will not participate in this thread but will drop by once and awhile to see
how this topic develops.

Your concept of a asymetic-rotation-driven-pendulum is very interesting.

Regards

Kator

Ultrasonic Reactor

I?m on the way to build my ultrasonic reactor .....
My goal is to have a universal tool to play around
with torsion waves in liquids.
I don?t want to build 5 or 10 reactors - so it should
be a clever design from the very beginning.
To have a solid platform - I tend to use a cylindrical
part of an al-cast (part of a motorblock/ cylinder).
To avoid reflections and standig waves (I want to build
a reactor and not a resonator) I had the Idea to use
kind of spongy material to coat the inside of the reactor.
I found quite nice high quality piezos used to vaporize
water - 3 of them should be positioned in an xyz way,
mounted in the wall of the al-cast block.
The 3 piezos should be driven with multiple cascades
of dds sine generators - operating with the same or multiple
masterclocks - enabling multiple time domains.
The maximum output power of one piezo is about some watts.
The dds cascades should additional have the possibility to
synthesize single pulses with phase and full harmonic control
from 0.001 to 200 MHz (from signal point of view).
I want to use this Synthesizer for other interesting things -
so please dont worry about the 200MHz.

Do you have any suggestions, comments on this ?
Do you think spongy material can be used to avoid reflections ?
Maybe there is still an issue that the piezos have too less power,
but the commercial, high power parts are too big in size for
such setup.
What would you keep in mind designing such reactor !?

rgds.

G'day Fritz,

This is an interesting and ambitious project you have in mind. I don't want to give an answer to this off the cuff as it were, so please give me a day or two to put something together that might be helpful.

Hans von Lieven

Dear Hans,

Some further intentions...

If the piezos are operated at similar frequency
than in the water vaporizers, they have a beam of
3-5mm diameter. Having 3 beams in xyz configuration
would give a focal volume of 125-150mm^3.

At least if you operate all 3 of them at resonance
frequency used for the vaporizers - the power density
should be enough...
One idea is to modulate this carrier frequency AM
with another (quite lower) composite wavefrom to
crack the molecules. Maybe its interesting to do
this without carrier only on both sidebands......

Another construction option is the use of 2 opposite piezos
per axis - to have a forced "push pull" torsion wave... using
6 piezos with adjustable phase delay or complete separate
synthesizer which can be coupled to the other piezo on the
same axis.....

My plans for the electrical part - piezos, configuration, drivers
synthesizers are already in the design stage, waiting for
oscillator samples, ...

The mechanical part is still open to some degree ...
Is there a robust way to attach a camera to the device,
what have to be kept in mind if operating such camera
under water (magnification, focus)...
...
rgds...

Hi Hans,

The concept of resonance is an interesting one. There are many factors
that determine the resonant frequency of a material and as I understand it a
major one is the length of the material.

The length of a hydrogen bond in a water molecule is 95.84pm and hence one
would expect the resonant frequency to be somewhere around 3130 Petahz (10^15)
This is in the upper Xray range which obviously was not available in Keely's time.

I think the idea of Keely using a 3 chord set was to try and get this high frequency
from a harmonic. If such a high frequency harmonic could in fact be generated (and I doubt it),
it's amplitude would be miniscule and require an enormous power input to create a useful harmonic.

Therefore from a power efficiency point of view one would be better off going straight to an xray
generator in order to try and get the hydrogen bonds to resonate and hopefully break.

Obviously throwing xrays around is not for the faint hearted.

We already use microwaves to produce heat by taking advantage of the dipolar nature of
the water molecule. However going to a high power xray generator is a significant step.

Finally, if one compares the power input of an xray generator solution to the simple electolysis
solution I am prepared to bet the latter is way less!

Your thoughts would be welcomed.

ERS

Hi Hans,

I think it is most likely that Keely used the Well Temperament that was in use in the 1800's mostly thanks to Bach.
Here is some info on it.
http://www.kylegann.com/histune.html#hist4
http://www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html

This tuning allows for a great number of harmonics and for full modulation.

GS

@ERS
I think that keely?s use of chords is ment in a way that this chord /
composite waveform doesn?t break up the water bond directly.
Keely?s technique is to break up the topologic shells which
separate the water bond from direct inflluence of kinetic energy
from outside.
By breaking up this shells you have the possibility to transfer
kinetic energy directly to a molecular level. This additional energy
distorts the equilibrium of the water bonds and induces interesting
"molecular options" for the involved atoms. While taking this (intermediate)
options - outer shells work against this trying to protect their own equilibrium..
By tricking out this inter-shell/over all equilibrium interactions -
single (intermediate not bonded) atoms can "escape".
This trick(changing the way how the atoms recombine) has the potential
to have a higher efficiency than electrolysis where you just
replace electrons.

You are right with your assumptions about breaking up water bonds
with x rays - but thats definitely not the "trick".

Some example:
You are inside a church and want to excite the church bell
by emitting acoustic waves tuned to the resonance frequency
of the bell. It is almost impossible to do that because of the massive
church building and the massive church tower where the bell is mounted.
You have to overcome the damping(mass) of both parts.
Its not possible to establish an energy transfer at this frequency on that path.
To enable an energy transfer for that purpose - you can excite the resonance
frequency of the church building first - this enables you to put the church tower
into resonance by adding the second frequency. Now you have an energy path
from inside the church to the mounting point of the bell. It is possible to excite
the bell by adding the resonance frequency of the bell.
Church building, church tower and church bell are 3 connected oscillating
resonators operated at there resonance frequency and are able to transfer
kinetic energy.
The self resonance of the construction part overcomes the damping coefficient
of the part. Now energy induced on other frequencies to the part isnt damped
anymore - it can be transfered to connected parts.
I think thats the process Keely refers by "liberation" -
This method is quite power efficient. Maybe it takes some energy to establish
the oscillation and to overcome the damping - but it takes quite less
energy to maintain it due to accumulative nature of the phenomenon.

so long.

Hi Fritz,

Your analogy with the bell, tower & church is an interesting one. It seems you are using
the resonance of each part, first being the church, as some sort of carrier for the next resonant
wave. The problem here is that the frequencies intended to resonate the tower and bell would be absorbed
by the church. And even if these frequencies could get through, imagine the power wasted on resonating
the church walls, then the tower. My point is that only a tiny percenatge of the incoming power would
reach its intended target.

I am not sure what you mean by 'topological shells'? Are you refering to
electron energy levels? As in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_level

Please point me to a reference explaining your terminology so I can better understand
what seems to be a key point in this theory.

ERS

Hi, ERS,

With "topologic shells" I mean stages.
It would make some sense here to study
the very nice keely hompage from hans. www.keelytech.com.

In case of the dissociation of water this shells (could) be:

1. technical carrier wave just used to couple into the media
2. wave to "freeze" water clusters
3. wave to separate water clusters
4. wave to resonate the isolated cluster
5. wave to crack the cluster

This is just an example how I think Keelys technology works.
Right now I?m in a stage where I want to find out about the
nature of Keelys technology.

Pls. don?t take the church example to serious from physical
point of view - as well as the other stuff I posted -

rgds.

@ERS
Church - huh -
If the church is resonating - you can feed extra
kinetic energy during the phase where the kinetic
power of the oscillation dominates.
If the oscillation is at "top" or "bottom" where the potential
energy is maximum - (would be same as non-resonating church)-
the damping is maximum.
This would mean that for an energy transfer as described in my last
mail - the resonance frequencies have to be in a monotonus order.
f1<f2<f3.
So its possible to transfer kinetic energy of higher frequency during
the kinetic phase of slower oscillation.
(you cannot excite the church ringing the bell) ;-).

rgds.

Again: These are no claims, feel free to comment.

G'day Fritz and all,

Your example of the church and the bell is a good one, it proves you understand what Keely was on about.

One way of making this work is to chip away at the church and the tower until both are tuned to a harmonic of the bell. Now you have a clean path for energy transfer. Keely called that graduation.

Keely had no other way to get the vibrations to where he wanted them, he was forced to use the entire structure as a conductor. We don't need to do this anymore, we have now other ways of inducing resonance in a cavity.

That is where I see the development.

Hans von Lieven

Sorry guys, I must be missing something.

Why are we trying to use a by-product harmonic instead of trying to generate the actual resonant frequency we need to act upon the target, in this case the water molecule?

ERS

@ERS
If there would be a single water bond hanging around
somewhere in space-time - there would be some
possibility to crack it with a primary oscillation tuned
to its resonance frequency.
As you stated some posts before - this frequency is
quite high and the energy needed.
In real water there are lots of things going on, molecules
swap atoms, the molecules keep on going to build clusters
and "hang out" in different ways.
By using well choosen harmonics - I think its possible to
organize a well configured transfer path down to the molecule
level - which gives a robust way to crack it - keeping the primary
frequency low.
I think that the self-resonant frequency of the water bond finally is
generated by inducing high power densities which exploit nonlinear
transfer characteristic at the "last mile" to the bond. This nonlinear
behaviour generates even higher harmonics which finally cracks the bond.
- so there?s no need to generate the water bond self harmonic.

@Hans,

I think that Keely is using some other effects on top of "graduation".
If you have 2 connected resonators working on different harmonics -
you can transfer the energy from one resonator to the other and back.
(thats somehow veljkovich (or how to spell) 2nd order pump stuff in 3rd dimension).
By having standing waves and "beat sensation" frequency setup - you can
alter the acoustic impedance of the energy transfer point between the resonators -
which gives you the chance to control the distribution of energy between
resonator 1 and 2 by means of "acoustic" control.
This effect can be used to commutate an acoustic "motor" or to produce
shock waves (of high density) to exploit nonlinear behaviour - as mentioned above -
to generate very high and powerful harmonics.

rgds.

Quote from: fritz on December 05, 2007, 01:39:38 AM
In real water there are lots of things going on, molecules
swap atoms, the molecules keep on going to build clusters
and "hang out" in different ways.

Hi Fritz,

Firstly, I cannot agree that atoms 'swap' amongst molecules under normal conditions. Can you quote a source for this statement?

Secondly, clustering of water molecules is a normal phenomenum due to their dipolar nature. However these clusters form and reform naturally and without any external impetus. There is near zero energy stored in the very weak bonds of a cluster hence little can be released by breaking them.


ERS

Quote from: Evil Roy Slade on December 05, 2007, 09:31:25 PM

Quote from: fritz on December 05, 2007, 01:39:38 AM
In real water there are lots of things going on, molecules
swap atoms, the molecules keep on going to build clusters
and "hang out" in different ways.

Hi Fritz,

Firstly, I cannot agree that atoms 'swap' amongst molecules under normal conditions. Can you quote a source for this statement?

Secondly, clustering of water molecules is a normal phenomenum due to their dipolar nature. However these clusters form and reform naturally and without any external impetus. There is near zero energy stored in the very weak bonds of a cluster hence little can be released by breaking them.


ERS

google, first hit:
http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~acarpi/NSC/7-ph.htm

There is a nice introduction on water at Hans?s homepage -
additional there is a nice link somewhere in this thread:
http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/index2.html

I don?t want to break or store energy in the cluster.
I just wanted to give an example what "shell?s" can be.
In this case, clusters will not participate in energy transfer -
maybe they are needed to get a special configuration
for this purpose ...

G'day all,

Consider the following: Keely says that before you can act on a mass you have to determine its mass chord. You then have to level a flow of vibrations at it which is in strict harmonic relationship to that mass chord. Then, and only then can a chord antagonistic to the mass chord be introduced that will reach into the heart of matter and enables manipulation.

Now we know about water clusters. We also know that there are only dominating forms of clusters under varying conditions and never a uniform cluster formation throughout the liquid.

Now each cluster would have its own natural frequency. Even in a liquid with a dominating cluster formation there would be many clusters whose mass chord is antagonistic to the dominant form.

Now what if the main flow of vibration does nothing more than create a uniform cluster formation, somewhat like a crystal lattice. Now the liquid acts as a whole in terms of vibrations and can be manipulated with very little energy input by levelling some antagonistic flow at it.

Perhaps this is Keely's "secret". What  do you fellows think?

Hans von Lieven

Great theory Hans.  Kind of like using the the main flow to line up the dominos and then a very small input (finger) will knock them all down once properly aligned. I like it.

Bill

You got it in one Bill,

This is exactly what Keely is saying.

Hans von Lieven

@Fritz,

Thanks for the links. It's good learn something every day!
The 'swapping' refers to individual protons rather than whole atoms.
I don't know what this means in the whole scheme of things nevertheless I think it
is worth pursuing. Given that I am certainly not a chemistry expert I will refer this to
a real chemist and see what he thinks. Will let you know the outcome.

@Hans
I see a little light at the end of the Keely tunnel after reading your stuff.
Need to get my head around a few things before continuing this little debate.
Thanks for you input.

ERS

Not sure if you guys have seen this yet...but just in case:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiKa4nOkHLw

I would love to know what the power output of the uwave generator is!
ERS

Dear All,

Just want to tell you some experience of a "hands on"
experiment some months ago. Sometimes it takes a little bit to understand.

Glass of water, filled with approx. 180ml of water (normal water).
Piezo disc with 2 wires attached inside the water, operated with
sinus generator (fixed output resistance(50 Ohms), constant output
voltage. Monitoring the voltage and the current with probes hooked up
to my oscilloscope.
Starting with audio frequencies.
Complete identical behaviour as if the disc would be operated outside.
Most of the energy is spent by bending the disk.
Then if you hit the first mechanical resonance frequency (of the disc)something happens -
the voltage goes up, the current goes down - the "resistance" seen by the generator
goes up.
Now the disc can store some of the energy needed to bend in its own oscillation.
The impedance (voltage, current) seen by the generator and on my scope
is now absolutely sensitive to the water (because a slight change in the local water
pressure would change the resonance frequency of the disc).
Even tilting the glass slightly has a prompt response on that.

Now you can say - well the efficiency goes up using a mechanical resonance
of the disc - but sticking to keely?s language - you set the mass chord for the
resonator. Now most of the emitted energy can be transfered into the media
because the mass of the emitter is "compensated" due to the fact that its
oscillating on its resonance frequency ....

(...)
rgds.

G'day Fritz,

Well done, now try taking it one step further, put some sort of regenerative feedback into the system to allow the frequencies to "run away" and see what happens.

Hans

Hans,

You might want to look at http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3742 -> Search for Neg Ion

Jack.

Evil Roy Slade, I seen that video along with the others and I have his patent application downloaded trying to find out the power used to create the affect he did. You may want to use this next link to check it out more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kanzius#_ref-rustumroy.com-responsetoemail_0

The one thing that disturbs me is that no one is talking about the effect it had on the florescent bulb that the frequency lit up.

Hans,

I was doing some out of the box googling and found something that might be worth a try with the apparatus you have.

136.10 Hz @ 432.10 Hz. - This is supposedly supposed to make water vibrate. It's the frequency of OM, the Indian/Buddhist chanting mantra.

http://www.bevnet.com/news/2006/03-24-2006-LiquidOM.asp - This is the souce where I found it as well as various other sources when you google up 136.10 Hz ... there are plenty of tuning fork sales people out there.

Sorry I cannot give you an authoratative affirmition on the frequency but it might just be worth giving a shot. (Ps. Dont know if its sine or square)

I would think this way... if you manage to vibrate the little guys in H20 the possibility of a stretch break with Stan Meyers or the Joe Cell method might actually have a meaning as half the disassociation work is done by the stretching and flexing.

Let me know if this tip was usefuel. (misspelled on purpose)

Jack.

Thanks Jack, I will give it a shot

Hans

None of this makes any sense without taking into account the size of the vessel holding the water,
hence why Stan Meyer used the electrolysis chamber as a capacitor in the circuit. By doing this in
a resonant circuit, he minimized the energy used because it technically wasn't a load on the circuit.
So he would have had a variable inductor to adjust the resonance to find the right frequency.
This would give a limited range, but by making different chambers and inductors, quite a broad range
can be experimented with. Standing waves are created through geometry of the structure.

Hans,

I've studied Keely for 25 years and studied Physics, Metaphysics, and Religions for as long and read 40,000 books, plus the Internet, for years.

May I suggest some adjustments, if the Dan Davidson recommended frequency of 42,800 Hz (42.8 MHz) is not found to be working. No where in Keely's Articles in very old books, which I have looked through and listed at the end of this post, have I seen Keely mention his 42,800.

I did post with my own email group years ago and documented the emails here:

Electrons and Mythologies
http://www.greatdreams.com/grace/50/99s1.html

If you want to go to webpages 99s2.html and 99s3.html, insert the needed " /grace/ " into the URL of all internal page links, then they will work.

Also, as a note, we found that 440 Hz = A is not a Sacred Science frequency or harmonic of the Ancient System. The frequency of the Kings Chamber, Cheops Pyramid coffer is 432 Hz = A. So if you find that 42,800 Hz doesn't work, try 43,200 Hz (43.2 MHz), a harmonic of 432 Hz. Note that the mass chord of atomics constantly drifts somewhat.

You will also find all the old Articles that Keely and Mrs. Bloomfield published, at this URL under Additional References. You may find these hardbound Indexes at any of the main Repository Libraries in the US:

http://www.greatdreams.com/grace/1/26keely.html

Meta
Impossible Correspondence
http://www.greatdreams.com/grace/index.html

@meta,

Thanks for the link, it will take a while to study your site so I will not comment in a hurry.

Have you seen my website dealing with Keely almost exclusively http://keelytech.com

Any comments would be appreciated.

Hans von Lieven

mramos,

You are right about the MHZ error which should be KHz.. Thank you.

Hans,

The whole website, Impossible Correspondence, is not in order such that you can read it page after page in a linear manner. it was manually grouped into subject matter and that, not very well.

What does work very well is the convenient Search Engine, included on the Home page, the Index page and the Electrons and Mythologies Email list page. If you enter 432 for instance, into the Search Box, you will get every place in the whole website that mentions 432.  This Search Engine ties the whole site together well.

IC Search Engine
http://intra.whatuseek.com/searchbox.go?crid=7e15ac83168973e6

Meta

Hans,

I'm reading your website http://keelytech.com and it causes me to have much to say and many people to introduce to you, to see if you know of them. I even have two Tesla experimenters in Australia, if you want to know about high frequency tech, who have experiments going, at this time. One of the experimenters has made several new motors that work and has made a Ed Leedskalnin Permanent Magnet Holder (actually the Egyptian Ankh)  that holds a voltage even when not connected to a source. The other experimenter has Tesla coils 10 feet high, on his property. I'll try to put several paragraphs in order for you soon and will email you soon also with emails and names of the experimenters.

In the middle of reading it suddenly occurred to me that if you are using that water container next to your equipment, you should immediately move it far away from where your equipment is and also reduce the amount of water to a tablespoon full to experiment upon, since that amount of present water can very well blow your hand off. And don't look down into the water, with your face over the container either, since the water will implode into Aether, then explode straight up through your roof, leaving a hole where your head was.

Meta

G'day Meta,

If you look at my posts you will find that I stated that these diagrams, especially the quantity of water in the container are only an in principle explanation, not a design for a device.

I am well aware how much energy there is in a single drop of water and what would happen if you liberated that. Keely had many explosions, that is well documented. As to the bit about blowing a hole through the roof, I believe  you refer to the Dr. X story by Dan A. Davidson. I consider the story crap.

BTW, did you send two e-mails to my addresses, if that was you, the answer is yes, both addresses work.

Hans

Hans,

I already finished reading your webpages and noticed the picture of your real lab equipment with a large container of water with electrodes in it so I assumed that was the water amount you were working with, in actuality. Sorry for the presumption.

About the story you and I heard, that claimed that a hole was blown through the roof, by the Atherialized water, after the correct Keely frequency was supposed to have been found. The story itself may have been crap, since there is no evidence of any confirmation but have you ever seen the picture of the military "weapon" that Keely built and demonstrated for the US Military, in his day? I have. It looked like a machine gun and it only had a one-shot capacity. I assumed the picture was real. I can't quite remember where I saw it, it's been 10-15 years ago. It's not that my memory failed, it's just that I always remember whatever I am really interested in and I never registered that picture in my head and where I could find it again, if needed. Just an oversight. This is why I formed the opinion that Aether, confined in a cup, flask or a closed gun chamber has very explosive force, when water is activated with the right frequency.

And I did send email to both your email boxes and will be sending copies of what I know by that method, to both emails, from now on.

Meta
ggrace@aemail4u.com

you mean the gun in the bottom left corner?

Hans

Another potential hazard:  the human body is mostly water.  One might wish to operate the test cell remotely to avoid getting "liberated."

Evil ideas
1.  Replace someone's iPod tunes with Keely chords.
2.  When some telemarketer calls, play the "liberation" chord into the telephone handset.

Quote from: not_a_mib on December 27, 2007, 10:50:00 PM
Another potential hazard:  the human body is mostly water.  One might wish to operate the test cell remotely to avoid getting "liberated."

Evil ideas
1.  Replace someone's iPod tunes with Keely chords.
2.  When some telemarketer calls, play the "liberation" chord into the telephone handset.

LOL

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Hans

Quote from: hansvonlieven on December 27, 2007, 04:09:56 PM
you mean the gun in the bottom left corner?

Hans

Yes Hans,

That's the gun, only I saw it from the side view, in what seemed to be an outdoor setting.

Meta

G'day,

This gun was never meant to be a weapon. Keely used it to demonstrate ehteric vapour and its propulsive qualities. It shot a conventional projectile and was propelled with his dissociated water vapour.

Greetings

Hans von Lieven

Hello ! i just like to add what i found from Mr.Andrija Puharich

This device has an output consisting of an audio frequency (range 20 to 200 Hz) amplitude modulation of a carrier wave (range 200 Hz to 100,000 Hz). The impedance of this output signal is continuously being matched to the load which is the second component, the thermodynamic device. (the cell)

The second factor which helps to hold the resonant resonant frequency at 600 Hz is the gap distance of Y, between the centre electrode, and the ring electrode of the cell.

This gap distance will vary depending on the size scale of the cell, but again the current flow, I, is used to set it to the optimal distance when the voltage reads between 2.30 (rms) volts, at resonance Fo, and at molal concentration, 0.1540. The molal concentration of the water is thus seen to represent the electric term of the water molecule and hence its conductivity.

us patent ;  US3563246[1] ,and US3629521[1] ,and US3629521[1]

Good Luck from John  !!!!!

here is the
link to; andrija puharich and water decomposition by AC electrolyses

http://rexresearch.com/puharich/1puhar.htm

with more indepth description

i think this is the secret disclosure worth the effort, to test.

puharich was allso a good friend of Stan Meyer

the above mention us-patents was used for medicine/hearing-aid system/blood systems etc.
but who cares if the same tools can be used for low current water splitting
this is John

The Synthesis:

If you split up water molecules by excessive torsion waves -
the problem on almost any setup I?ve seen so far is that the
splitted molecules change the density of the water exact in that
area where it happened - means the ability of further splitting
immediatly decreases.
Some patents work with pulse trains and guided, controlled or open
loop breaks or whatever, other ones match and track the impedance,
Keely uses similar with acoustic feedback.

Personally, I think that you can split up water molecules with almost
any frequency - if you achieve a critical stress momentum (by the resulting
wave motion).
The major problem is how to maintain this splitting up process - eg
how to transport/remove the gas without disturbing the splitting process.

rgds.

i found a new link adress
that maybe can be of interest

here.......:  http://www.wasserauto.de/html/more_cars_.html

,i could not open it, can you ?

-it says..........................;

Hallo, Water Cracking Researchers

According to Andreas Hecht from bos-list@sax.de you should have a look to "Experiment zur Hochfrequenz-Analyse von Wasser"
http://buerger.metropolis.de/drax22/

this is a so interesting theme, that i can bearly find the calmness to go to bed...

i paste some more lines from the abovementioned website:

From "FUEL FROM WATER, Energy Independence with Hydrogen" Author Michael A.Peavey Publisher Merit, Inc., P.O. Box 694 Louisville,
KY 40205 Library of Congress Number 88-188956 ISBN 0-945516-04-5, page 22: " The smallest amount of energy needed to electrolyse one mole of water is 65.3 Wh at 25 degrees Celcius (77 degress F). When the Hydrogen and Oxygen are recombined into water during combustion 79.3 Wh of energy is released. 14 Wh more energy is released in burning Hydrogen and Oxygen than is required to split water. This excess must be absorbed from the surrounding media(environment) in the form of heat during electolysis."

And then, "At 25 degrees celcius, for voltages of 1.23 to 1.47 V, the electrolysis reaction ABSORBS HEAT. At over 1.47 V at 25 degrees celcius, the reaction gives off heat."

this sounds fantastic, !!!!

dissociating water must be the smartest ,and maybe the easiest way to provide heat and fuel
and it seems to be ;not verry expencive either.
,i am really looking forward to replicate such a setup,
i,ve got a HGH 500E , but so far i've not dared to test it, it should produce abt 500ml/H/min. at 220v/180W
,i was thinking of adding it into a combustionengine,someday........
so thanks to internett for all knowledge that one can pick up here and there.
this is John ...............(have to smoke outside!!!!).

Hans,

does all the notes have to have the same power DB gain wise? If so the high notes will require one powerful amplifier to produce those high notes. What type of a system will you use for it? These old time inventors really whacked things with power. Every time I touch a pre Einstein circuit I'm faced with the Tesla syndrome. That might be what you are looking at here.

G'day raburgeson,

From what I can gather Keely uses three different amplitudes for his three chords. And NO, he did not use brute power. He was using acoustic resonators only, without amplification.

If you are interested, I go into a lot of detail on this on my website http://keelytech.com

Hans von Lieven

I'm bogged down with three Projects now. I considered trying this in the past. It would take one big tank to contain the expansion, we considered pouring a cement tank. Never started it though, the information was less than I was hoping for, got it from rexresearch at the time. I wasn't considering brute force so much as the power it takes to produce a pure note, the higher the frequency the higher the power requirement. You are looking at signals above the audible spectrum so I inquired. I wish you every bit of luck.

This goes out to anyone who is listining,
                                                                I have been playing with different plate setups for my fuel cell but Every time I turn on my fuel cell The water turns green. Could anyone tell me what im doing wrong?

Quote from: Sanity101 on May 12, 2008, 09:53:53 PM
This goes out to anyone who is listining,
                                                                I have been playing with different plate setups for my fuel cell but Every time I turn on my fuel cell The water turns green. Could anyone tell me what im doing wrong?

I've seen greenish water tinges in the past when parts of the copper wire were exposed beneath the surface of the liquid. The copper wire oxidizes and turns green. Could there possibly be copper wire in your setup that is exposed and immersed in your cell water?

Just a possible cause to look for.

Hans, I don't know if you have already seen this, but it's a two part video on Dale pond explaining Keely's work pretty in depth, if you've already seen this then my appologies taking up your time,if not... hope it helps you in your work.

Part 1
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9125003792513982191&q=dale+pond&ei=Ev8oSKq6GIemrwKIze2SCg&hl=en (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9125003792513982191&q=dale+pond&ei=Ev8oSKq6GIemrwKIze2SCg&hl=en)
Part 2
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5430570751600484561&q=dale%20pond&hl=en (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5430570751600484561&q=dale%20pond&hl=en)

-rapttor

Verification of frequency to produce etheric force from water?
A recent (1965) possible verification of the frequency Keely used to dissociate water into etheric force was related to me by a scientist when we were discussing certain aspects of free energy. He wishes to remain anonymous for obvious reasons, but his name is on file. I have no other verification of this experiment, however I believe it merits telling. The scientist, I shall call him Dr. X, was doing experiments with ultrasonic sound in a column of water. The object of the experiments was to devise a means of separating various densities of materials by injecting them into a column of water which was subjected to an ultrasonic standing wave vibration. The experimental setup is sketched in Figure 3-3 (for BBS considerations a description follows). A Barium Titanate ultrasonic transducer  was fixed to the bottom of a quartz tube which was closed at the bottom and open at the top. Pure water was poured into the tube and the water column was "tuned" so that a standing wave was produced at 40,000 CPS (cycles per second). The transducer was powered by a 700 Watt power amplifier  which was driven by an ultrasonic frequency generator. Because of the large amount of power put into the column of water a certain amount of evaporation took place at a constant rate when the transducer was energized. Therefore, to maintain a standing wave in the water column a feedback device caused the frequency to be raised as the water evaporated and the temperature changed. As a test, Dr. X decided to run through the experiment with only water in the tube to ensure that a standing wave was maintained as the water evaporated and the frequency rose higher and higher. When the experiment was started everything worked beautifully. Dr. X took periodic readings of his instrumentation and was assured that the standing wave was being maintained. Suddenly, with no warning whatever the water disappeared from the open quartz tube. He looked up thinking to see the water splashed on the ceiling when to his amazement a clean hole went right through the ceiling. The hole was the same size as the inside of the quartz tube. Further investigation showed the hole continued on through the roof also! Dr. X checked his notebook and found the last frequency entry to be 41,300 CPS. It was shortly after this that the water disappeared. Because of the time interval between the last reading and the disappearing water, the frequency sent to the transducer was higher than the last reading and Dr. X said it could well have been very close to 42,800 CPS, the Keely dissociation frequency. This obviously dangerous event caused Dr. X to dismantle the equipment and try some other approach to his problem. This experiment points the way to the use of our modern technology in conjunction with Keely's laws of dissociation to change matter into energy without the use of radioactive materials or extremely expensive atomic accelerators."

Now here are some transducers that just might do the trick:
http://www.massa.com/datasheets/18A-40%20Datasheet.pdf
http://www.massa.com/datasheets/tr89.html

And some reading for those interested: http://www.ndt.net/article/yosi/yosi.htm

Motorcycle Runs on Water - Auckland NZ
Link...:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FW_LQqJk740
inventor poures the water through an invention,before pouring it to the fuel-tank
what happens here ???????????????????????????????????????????????
this is John

@ Hans:

I would like your opinion on the motorcycle running on water video just posted prior to my post.
I find it interesting but a bit strange.  It appears legit but it is very incredible to me.  Can someone
alter the structure of water such that it will burn like that?  I am curious as to why he makes such small quantities.

@ Cat_tinka:

I had not seen this video before you posted it.  Thank you for doing so.

Bill

According to a Panacea video, they contacted this guy for info and was told, paraphrasing, "the technology is no longer viable in the current economic climate..." - if you have watched the video above; it seems his paranoia was justified - he was obviously made an offer he couldn't refuse!

Nice world we live in...

Quote from: Sprocket on May 14, 2008, 08:17:33 PM
According to a Panacea video, they contacted this guy for info and was told, paraphrasing, "the technology is no longer viable in the current economic climate..." - if you have watched the video above; it seems his paranoia was justified - he was obviously made an offer he couldn't refuse!

Nice world we live in...

Was that a flying pig I just saw?????

Hans von Lieven

Yep yep, greed is this technologies worste enemy, and it keeps the world in this form of energy slavory and under their control. Sad I was hoping that guy would get past all of the greed stuff after the race they did in the land down under. Oh well, another one bites the dust.

@Hans - I take it you're sceptical! :D

@h20power - Agreed.  But you would think that individuals that hang out on forums like this would 'know the score' and act accordingly.  Unfortunately, from what I have seen, this is not the case - the moment someone discovers something special in FE, the almighty patent application is their only concern - despite no-one ever having been 'allowed' to commercialise a FE idea.   Just think of the difference that guy would have made to the world if he had made his discovery public - oil would be $1 a barrel within 6 months, and there wouldn't be a thing 'they' could do about it.  But greed is a powerful thing, and the system is specifically designed to play on personal greed to the detriment of everyone else...

Which is why I greatly respect what Archer Quinn is doing...

Sprocket there are alot of hero's here A LOT!!! and when they hit pay dirt  HOLD ON!!    Chet   PS your talking to one up there that handsome German/Australian fellow

Yes, I suppose my post could have been seen as suggesting otherwise - this was certainly not my intention, I have nothing but respect an admiration for the work that goes on here.  But I am also not so naieve as to believe that everyone here is on the same team...

Hi hans
not sure if this will help or not but, mabey the frequency your looking for is 432hz.
there is a lot of controversy about this frequency.
1 mile = 186322223.74145 hz

1hz =186282.4 miles

speed of light 186000 miles/second

432hz= 431.21 miles

432000 seconds in every 12hour period
864000 seconds in one day (864, one octave higher that 432)

radius of the sun is 432000 miles

3600 seconds in one hour ( completing the 360 degrees cycle/pulse/frequency)


and Bruce Cathie`s 144hz  finding of natual harmonics in
our solar system.


The distance from the center of the earth to the average height of the atmosphere. This value is given as 4320 arc-minutes, which harmonically can be reduce down to 432  the fundamental vibration for the sixth node in the octave
 
Colour:

Red 780-640 nm .. Orange 640-595 nm .. Yellow 595-570 nm .. Green 570-500 nm .. Blue 500-450 nm .. Violet 450-380 nm

in frequencies (Hz) this is
  Red 3,85E+14 4,69E+14 .. Orange 4,69E+14 5,04E+14 .. Yellow 5,04E+14 5,26E+14 .. Green 5,26E+14 6,00E+14 .. Blue 6,00E+14 6,67E+14 .. Violet 6,67E+14 7,89E+14


Once they are brought down by octaves,, we get

D 288..... 2^41 6,333E+14 474 - Do -Blue
E 324..... 2^41 7,125E+14 421 - Re -Indigo
F 341..... 2^41 7,504E+14 400 - Mi -Violet
G 384..... 2^40 4,222E+14 711 - Fa -Red
A 432..... 2^40 4,750E+14 632 - So -Orange
B 486..... 2^40 5,344E+14 561 - La -Yellow
C 512..... 2^40 5,629E+14 533 - Ti -Green

Music is magic
-Bobby