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When the rod with the two small wheels reaches 6:00, a latch catches the rod and holds it in that position. when the opposing wheel hits the ramp at 9:00, the latch releases at the 3:00 position and allows the rod to shift back in the other direction.
GraViTaR
You will have a jam directly at the top of your ramp, and rod in tubing only work in direct force. You have an indirect force at your tubing witch causes high friction. Someone else has a 2 arm sliding unit that they patented in 2001, and I don't know how they got it through for it has a similar problem and doesn't work. But people have been able to ad a solenoid to make the shift making that type work, but it needs help from other energy to work.
Quote from: AB Hammer on October 06, 2007, 11:20:13 PM
GraViTaR
You will have a jam directly at the top of your ramp, and rod in tubing only work in direct force. You have an indirect force at your tubing witch causes high friction. Someone else has a 2 arm sliding unit that they patented in 2001, and I don't know how they got it through for it has a similar problem and doesn't work. But people have been able to ad a solenoid to make the shift making that type work, but it needs help from other energy to work.
Maybe YOU will have a jam, but not me. It does not have to necessarily be a rod in tubing. It can be a set of roller bearings . Besides, the wheel itself has a large mass and it's inertia perpetuates the rotation with the double wheeled shaft just going along for the ride and keeping more weight on one side for the down swing. Come on man! Use your intuition!
This one needs no latching mechanism:
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Okay, how does the weight which has been pushed towards the axis get pushed out again as it approaches the top? something has to reset the weights to their original position, i.e at the maximum extent. At the moment after one complete revolution, both weights will be in the position closest to the axis. dead end.
Correct! And second: The bottom weight has to be moved first and then liftet, which causes additional friction on the ramp - exactly that much what m*g induces on the ramp to be liftet. This will not lead to energy gain. I give it a quarter revolution then it gets jammed somewhere short after the 9:00 clock position. dead end the II.
But keep on investigating. Build a model and test it out. It teaches a lot.
GraViTaR
Bearings help but are not the only correction, You need to build a model and also realise a full size model that will produce usefull energy will weigh 10 to 30 lb per end. I feel that I already have the problem solved with one of my blueprints ready to start. I also went through all the possibilities of what can go wrong and a working model will cost a fair bit to build. For it requires highly precision parts.
Quote from: GraViTaR on October 06, 2007, 07:09:28 PM
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When the rod with the two small wheels reaches 6:00, a latch catches the rod and holds it in that position. when the opposing wheel hits the ramp at 9:00, the latch releases at the 3:00 position and allows the rod to shift back in the other direction.
I have a pretty "fleshed out" version of something like this on my work computer. I'll post the plans on Monday when I get back into work.
Just messing around , animation attached.
A bit jumpy and needs better timing .
Quote from: IronHead on October 07, 2007, 12:11:30 PM
Just messing around , animation attached.
A bit jumpy and needs better timing .
What software did you make that in?
Max 9
please post again here, if they decided to check it out on TV or not
G'day all,
Even assuming that the ramp works, what force will push it on to the ramp?
All positions prior to the ramp are in equilibrium.
Besides, shouldn't it be turning in the opposite direction?
Hans von Lieven
Quote from: IronHead on October 07, 2007, 12:59:49 PM
Max 9
Hey if I were to give you an fully textured MAX file would you be interested in doing a similar type of animation? I use VIZ at work to make stills but I'm not very knowledgable when it comes to making animations.
Bullshit!
Quote from: IronHead on October 07, 2007, 12:11:30 PM
Just messing around , animation attached.
A bit jumpy and needs better timing .
That's a great animation: Illustrates the process perfectly.
G'day P-Motion,
It cannot move counter clockwise. The weights on the left are closer to the axis, there is LESS leverage on the left as there is on the right. If it turns at all it MUST move clockwise. Then you have the problem on the bottom where the weight has to be LIFTED onto the ramp.
Hans von Lieven
hey i have come up with something similar.
let me know what you guys think :)
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3437.msg53397/topicseen.html#msg53397
Interesting thread ...
1) Made a video with the wheels on either side of a solid pole, that get's pushed back and forth.
2) Guessing you would need to add additional sets of wheels attached to axle to make it worthy.
Just playing around ...
I guess you could try this concept with ticker-toy parts. ;D
Quote from: bastonia on October 07, 2007, 05:28:23 PM
Interesting thread ...
1) Made a video with the wheels on either side of a solid pole, that get's pushed back and forth.
2) Guessing you would need to add additional sets of wheels attached to axle to make it worthy.
Just playing around ...
I guess you could try this concept with ticker-toy parts. ;D
@ Iron Head and @Bastonia
Very usefull simulation. That improofs everyones Imagination.
Thanks a lot. Well done.
helmut
::) :P ::) :P ::)
I have been so tempted to show my version but until it's protected I can't. But this tread has become very amusing to me. In one case you are so close and the other you couldn't be any further away. You have to control it, is my only clue I can give at this time.
Jumpy quickly done Quad animation
Ironhead:
Great animation!!!! But, I think, and what do I know, that there is to much friction to overcome given the amount of energy provided by gravity. But, someone please build it and prove me wrong. I will toast them gladly.
Bill
Pirate, you nailed it! I did a screen shot at the point of contact and asked the questions....it should be obvious....
If this type of design is ever destined to work, it has to have the ability to adapt to a constant acceleration, which...of course...provides reaction forces that are not proportional to the acceleration. this type of system is rigid and cannot allow for that. I hope you guys can see what I mean by that. Just think about it......it has no give to absorb the impacts and still maintain a positive output direction....
Steve
Quote from: erickdt on October 07, 2007, 11:44:56 AM
I have a pretty "fleshed out" version of something like this on my work computer. I'll post the plans on Monday when I get back into work.
Alright, this is what I was talking about.
@everyone
I personally do not think it will work . I only posted this animation to give visual ad to the process and discussion.
@erickdt
I do however like the 5 arm idea . Still I dont see this as a working system yet.
Build a highly adjustable/reconfigurable model and see where it goes.
Also before you go through the pain staking task of building that bearing setup you might want to check into linear bearings that you can purchase.
IronHead
Can most of the folks see how the reaction forces on the ascending side are going to be quite a bit more powerful than the downward force? When the arm hits that ramp, the friction caused by this is going to be incredible....and as the speed increases, this force will be increasing approximately 4X the actual increase in speed.....if I am wrong on this, someone please correct me....thanks!
Steve
I cant see anything yet as there is no physical model . Imagination is one thing but reality is a whole different ball game
Just Built It !
IronHead
Hey Ironhead...don't misunderstand, your animation was fantastic to me and the application was about as standard as you can get...I mean, you didn't try and make it too sophisticated and it was easy for anyone to understand. It was a great example!
But, my point was....this is the basic failure of these types of designs if left to their own. The faster it goes...the harder it hits and this is going to be up to 4X harder!
Steve
I understand but what I said still stands , There needs to be a physical model to even begin to understand its workings.As you build it, it will teach you what its problems and failures are and you do your best to correct them.Without a live model there is only imagination and some math. I am not saying you are wrong , I am saying this all needs to be done in real life physical world to even begin to solve the problems.
Build it , it will teach you
IronHead
I agree with Iron Head
You can draw all you want, but until you put it to the test. You will not know what is wrong or how to correct it. Even the computers can only give you an idea. Nature has it's own rules for us to obey. to use a line from a movies. One must learn how to obey nature before he can comand it.
If you can't do the work, try to find someone that can, and then if it works give them there share of the credit for what they will have to do to make it work, they will have earned it.
I put all my ideas to the test as soon as possible, and my version (that is quite a bit different than what has been drawn) should be done before winters end.
Best of luck "AB Hammer" my respect goes to you as a builder.
The key to a ramp is a "soft" landing: like landing an airplane.
The wheel should initially contact the ramp as smoothly as possible. Then, once the wheel starts rolling down the ramp, the direction can be changed to shift the weight.
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The roller unit catches a latch as it falls off the ramp at 6:00. A latch is desirable, rather than a continuation of the ramp as I showed in a different picture, because all the weight is held to the main wheel. A continuation of the ramp loses all that leverage by the friction of the roller going uphill and the weight of the roller unit trying to balance itself.
So now, when the descending roller gets to 9:00, the latch releases on the opposite end at 3:00. The descending roller gently glides onto the ramp and the rotation of the wheel is enough to get the roller unit to continue on the ramp and shift it's position to start the process once again.
Soft landing like an airplane ???
Have you looked at the friction skid marks on a runway?
The ramp idea has been use many times with massive failure. But there is some merit in the arms. My other one uses arms but is allot different from yours even though I started with a similar design then I started to use the math and promply started changing it. But this simple version that has been tried by so many people, prompts me to make a device that can make this simple one work. For this reason I will bump it up to a couple of weeks from now and make it work. ;)
Well the first step is done. I have drawn the blueprint using 2 sets of weights and the parts that will make it work. Now all I have to do is get some time to work on it, for I can't eat air to live on.
For us people that work so hard on a job. Then we work so we can work on a hobby :-\
Hi everyone, I do find this subject fascinating, and I am trying to understand all the various designs and the principals behind them, but most seem quite complicated.
To help me understand the basics can someone please tell me where the wheel in the attached diagram would reach equilibrium? Apologies for the poor quality of the drawing.
Thanks and keep up the good work.
Debbie
Hi Debbie .. if you are not alreday familiar with the 'Museum of Unworkable Devices' I suggest that you spend some time there [it's very iinteresting] - there are many designs similar yours, that fail to work as anticipated, with thorough explanations as to why this happens - in essence, as your've drawn it, the wheel is over-balanced & will have a tendency to turn CCW, but not a full segment however - it will start out with positive torque then pass thru the neutral [zero] torque position then into negative torque which wants the wheel to then turn CW - eventually [depending on how much friction loss there is] the wheel settles at the 'keel' position [position of zero torque or position of least potential] - the static ramp/guide provides a 'back torque' to the wheel & like water finding its lowest level the wheel will oscillate until its finds its position of least resistance - it keels - while ramps & guides initially look good they force a sliding or pivoted weight to follow a predetermined path, often this involves lifting the weight to move it to a closer orbit - when the ramp does this the weight cannot apply its full weight as torque to the wheel [& applies it to the ramp instead] which is counterproductive to what you actually want to achieve - there are no free lunches where gravity is concerned !
http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/unwork.htm
@fletcher:
I am no scientist but I have worked with many "gravity" wheels over the years and that was an excellent explanation of this design, and its shortfalls. I would encourage anyone who thinks they have a workable design to follow through and try it, regardless of what others say about it on here, but, like my Dad always says, don't try to reinvent the wheel. Meaning, that if others have tried a similar design, and it did not work, your efforts can be spent attempting another approach. Most say that gravity wheels will never work, and they are right, so far. They may always be right. I still think that it will take a combination of several technologies, gravity, magnetism, etc., to make a design finally work. And, this may not be possible either, but, we won't know that unless we try everything. Best of luck to all.
Bill
Well said fletcher
I could not have said it better, you put in words that I would have to have a model to express.
Pirate88179
Well I hope to prove them wrong, since I promiced to make this basic idea work, I am kinda on a fire.
has anyone considered the "ramp" as a "smot ramp", would this not take away some of the friction problem? even if it's replaced with lenz law complications, it might be worth some consideration. at least you might be able to generate enough energy to the thing to keep it going?
lol
sam
supersam
If you through a smot into this system, will the magnets be strong enough for a system? A magnet is a bandage on a cut throat when it come to larger mechanical devises. This design needs to be about 4 ft tall before it can have enough energy to run anything. Just the model I am building is only 2 ft tall for the test system I am building to make it work. It seems like every body has this basic idea, but not a working control devise. I have finalized one design and have played with about 4 others. each have there pluses. But how well, still remains to be seen.