I had this idea a very very long time ago, it was before anyone really had the internet, the early 90's some time when my interest in Free Energy was new.
I eventually discounted it but while writing a post in Thane's toroid transformer thread where I was trying to verify what I felt was true, that a tighter coil creates a stronger field was indeed correct.
It reminded me of my idea and made me realize that actually it would work, or should.
If you have a hoop coil of say 100 turns with a 2 cm diameter and pass through 10 amps (ok, a bit much for such a small coil but anyway) you will get a field of 678 gauss.
If you have a hoop coil of say 100 turns with a 20 cm diameter and pass through 10 amps you will get a field of 57 gauss. (that approx 1/6th the gauss of the tighter coil)
The interesting thing is if you have both coils threaded on a magnetic core with a changing flux both coils will get the same voltage induced per turn. (provided none of the flux's return path is inside of the outer coil)
So what would happen if we had a large toroid transformer core and on one side wound (for now) a pretty normal primary coil.
And on the other side we have one core hugging coil and another coil around that with double the number of turns and x10 the diameter. (so if the inner secondary had 50v rms the outer would show 100v rms)
If we now put these in anti-series so that their induced voltages cancel we are left with just half the induce voltage of our outer coil or 50v.
But the magnetic field in the core would be that of the tighter coil, but the current direction through that coil is decided by our outer coil!
What would (should) happen is that pulling more current through the secondary would increase the primary field in the core (because normally a secondary is at 180 degrees phase relationship but here it would be 0 degrees) increasing further the induction into the secondary and also decreasing the current through the primary! (by in effect increasing the primaries self induction just like the steel does)
In fact you could maybe do away with the primary and just power this compound secondary coil, it seemingly should act as a negative inductor giving free energy. (the only problem with that theory is that the outer coil will have a greater self inductance, the inner coil having an air core inductance of 281 microhenries and the outer one having an inductance of 8,288 microhenries, However as the inner coil has it's field amplified by the core it's wound on and the outer coil won't do to anything like the same extent.)
So while I wouldn't recommend making the negative inductor version it does seem it should make a good OU transformer.
Furthermore it should work the other way round, use the secondary as the primary and the primary as the secondary.
It would mean that at you pull power from the secondary it should seemingly give the primary energy.
Another thought I find very favorable is if the input is enough to actually worry about (not far far less than the output) then obtain a capacitor which is matched to the primaries inductance under load (slightly annoying I admit) to be resonant to the input frequency (or maybe just change the input frequency to match the cap?) so you have a tank circuit.
A tank circuit might decrease energy loss in the primary hugely since just because a coil needs current to generate a field does not mean that it need use up any energy.
For the record I think Thanes toroid idea is probably better if it works as expected, but if it is a source of potential only and falls apart when current is drawn as some things seem to be saying then this is a pretty decent and reasonably straight forward alternative.
Oh, and before anyone asks, novelty sized oval transformer core not required ;)
More practical diagram.
Update: Added at top view of rewind. (with red coil accidentally somewhat larger)
Also note that if the red coil had the same number of turns as the black then it could be used as a primary which is oblivious to the core flux (not see the secondary) based on the size pictured the black coil's presence in the core would be 6 times greater than the red's.
However if used as a secondary where it would have 2 times more turns it would have 1/3rd the strength of the black coil.
I feel lonely ;) talking to myself...
Anyway the final variation would be to have one core hugging coil and another larger coil of the same number of turns in reverse series on the same outer leg (not center bar preferably) of a transformer as the primary.
This would still create a magnetic field in the core but the compound primary coil would be immune to anything going on in the core since it would induce equally and oppositly in each coil.
So a normal secondary (or better yet a compound one) would not load or effect the primary in any way.
Also worth noting that not only could normal transformers be rewound to get these effects but may even be usable without rewinding, just connecting coils in various configs. (must be a multi tap transformer pri/sec though)
Edit: One final thing, it is plausible that by having the primary wound in such a way but having a few extra turns of wire on the outer section it could become self powering if in a tank circuit with a cap, I don't know. (this is then getting back to the negative induction subject again)
Edit2: It is worth noting that for a first test the best version to build is probably one with a compound primary and a simple secondary, it should give rather straight forward answers, mainly which one rules the steel core and if indeed the secondary being shorted/open circuit makes and difference to the primary current.
You are not "lonely"!
You have certainly a crowd of readers,
Waiting to you as teacher.
Pese
Quote from: aether22 on February 19, 2008, 02:31:55 AM
Anyway the final variation would be to have one core hugging coil and another larger coil of the same number of turns in reverse series on the same outer leg (not center bar preferably) of a transformer as the primary.
This would still create a magnetic field in the core but the compound primary coil would be immune to anything going on in the core since it would induce equally and oppositly in each coil.
So a normal secondary (or better yet a compound one) would not load or effect the primary in any way.
Are there differences, while winding sense? CCW / CW?
Have Sec-1 and Sec-2 Windings same sense?
Is there a difference if wrapped differently?
That the 2 coil with the AC phase be observed, is a different matter
Pese
Quote from: pese on February 19, 2008, 03:14:15 AM
Quote from: aether22 on February 19, 2008, 02:31:55 AM
Anyway the final variation would be to have one core hugging coil and another larger coil of the same number of turns in reverse series on the same outer leg (not center bar preferably) of a transformer as the primary.
This would still create a magnetic field in the core but the compound primary coil would be immune to anything going on in the core since it would induce equally and oppositly in each coil.
So a normal secondary (or better yet a compound one) would not load or effect the primary in any way.
Are there differences, while winding sense? CCW / CW?
Have Sec-1 and Sec-2 Windings same sense?
Is there a difference if wrapped differently?
That the 2 coil with the AC phase be observed, is a different matter
Pese
Winding sense is unimportant as long as the are connected together in the right way, the electrons must be going cw in one coil and ccw in the other.
If anyone is interested and has the skill to create a 3D magnetic simulation, preferable of the primary with an equal number of turns CW and CCW (at very different diameters) to verify that it would create a net magnetic field in the core that would be good. (I have verified with magnetic simulation calculators that the field strength is greater (12x greater in the example I gave with 2cm .vs 20cm) but not simulated how it would act in a full magnetic circuit.
@ather22
This is interesting, similar design to our Stubblefield coil in the earth batteries thread.. What is the difference in having this primary within the secondaries Thats the similarity im seeing.. I think it has something to do with there being a magnetic field on the inside and outside of the primary and utilizing both. Cant wait to hear your results with it.
Joe
So what does everyone think?
Can you see how it wouldn't work?
Do you understand the concept?
Agree/Disagree?
Update:
Just ran calculations and found that for a long coil, diameter has little effect on field strength so it is desirible to to keep the coils somewhat short. (perhaps only the outer one? or only the inner one? not sure yet)
This also means that if you make the above transformer as shown it's preformance will be slightly less since it's not quite a hoop coil, though it doesn't seem far from it IMO.
I considered if the core effectivly made it into an infinite length coil which would stop it from working at all but feel quite confident that is not the case.
Just tried simulating a setup with 2 coils, one larger with 1/2 - 1/4 the flux density of the other smaller one.
And while I won't post pictures unless anyone requests them it is working very well, the smaller denser field is directing the field in the toroid core.
So I have now simulated a secondary which is totally immune to any flux change in the core and it produces a magnetic field just fine!
Alas it wasn't to be, I was right to scrap the idea oh so many years ago (or so it seems).
I tried the initial simulations with coil.magnets and they showed it working very very well.
So I then found the vertical wire option and made a virtual coil cross section with it only to get the results no one wanted, while the smaller coil won directly over where it was 'wound' the larger coil won the rest of the toroid.
Now while I can't ensure it would stop it from being successful it seems likely, the idea is afterall busted if the flux returns inside of the larger coil by not staying in the core.
So while I don't understand the difference in results I fear these results are most probably the more accurate ones.
Oh, and I simulated Thanes toridal transformer and it doesn't work either (flux went through the airgap), though I think he already said that simulations don't agree with his transformer
Update: Further tests show that if the outer coil is SLIGHTLY weaker, even 1/10th fewer turns then the field of the tighter coil will happily win, in fact if the other coil is tightly wound the one with slightly more flux totally defeats it (due to the core amplifying the field of the winner).
The problem with this is that under such a setup, you'd have plenty of flux in the core until the the secondary pulled a slight bit of it's own current and suddenly the other side would win or it would become a tie.
I will note though that I did find something interesting which may have FE implications.
Quote from: aether22 on February 20, 2008, 03:29:05 AM
Oh, and I simulated Thanes toridal transformer and it doesn't work either (flux went through the airgap), though I think he already said that simulations don't agree with his transformer
It works for me in simulation (vizimag), but you have to be careful to look at the real numbers instead of the pictures, because in realizable configurations, the secondaries
do pump flux through the primary, but much less than they pump through the loop.
If you simulate the state with both secondaries on, you'll find that the primary becomes a hot spot, because most of the flux in the toroid is cancelled out. The picture that vizimag draws of this looks just like all the flux from the secondaries is being directed through the primary, but it isn't so! It just looks that way because vizimag renders
relative flux density. If you put it into absolute mode, and look at the actual flux measurements, you'll find that the flux through the primary when both secondaries are energized is much less than twice the flux through the loop when a single secondary is energized.
So, if you calculate the efficiency of the transformer when built and driven correctly, based on the vizimag flux model, it can come out overunity even though it's not perfect.
Here are the simulation results.Ã, Everything has permeability 1000, and all the coils are 100 turns around a 4mm diameter.
Hmm... This doesn't look like overunity anymore, now that I measured the effect of the primary.
Now I see what I didn't know -- the whole effect that the reluctance of the flux path has on the primary inductance.
@Mr.Entropy,
why did you set the secondary coils into
repelling bucking flux mode ?
What if their flux is adding ?
Could you simulate this also ?
Many thanks.
I fell for it too, if you'll recall my last line: I will note though that I did find something interesting which may have FE implications.
Though I noted that the flux does go through the primary I also found that you can get a comparativly huge flux in the toroid. Even the tesla readings were changing showing it worked.
It was only when I ran the simulation both ways at the same time did I find that having a tornado of flux on the toroid (as in your middle picture) didn't effect the field through the primary.
I would understand it if it had been just the way it drew the flux but I really do get different readings based on what else is on screen so watch out, the program is misleading. (though I still like it withis reason)
Also Stephan, in answer to your question if the secondaries are adding the flux still goes through the primary, even if the primary isn't there and it's just air.
The reason Thane is not noticing any energy load on the primary is because he is drawing almost no power because if he has less than 1k resistance the voltage drops without an increase of current. It seems odd that 1000 turns at 250ma would be different to 2000 turns at 125ma (same ampere turns) so if the current is not there it seems unlikely that by doubling the number of turns and hence the voltage that you could still draw the same current.
Even in the unlikely event that something is screwey and he has a very unusual FE effect which is discriminating not on ampere turns but current levels in wires or current densities it's clear that it's not as advertised.
His motor generator discovery however fits with other FE discoveries very well, it explains why so many have been able to make successful motor-gen setups and how easy it would be to get it almost all right but fail with a change in shaft coupling.
Quote from: hartiberlin on February 21, 2008, 10:47:42 PM
@Mr.Entropy,
why did you set the secondary coils into
repelling bucking flux mode ?
Because that's the way their induced current goes. If you drive them so that their fluxes add in the toroid, then there will be no net flux in the primary, but that's not relevant to using this thing as a FE transformer.