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It's another my experiment. Another version schematic based on i post in http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3599.msg80317.html#msg80317

Single AA battery to light white LED.
Until now (more than 96 hours) still light on without "reducing" power of battery.  I'll keep it on until the battery dead but  i hope it will not.  :)
I revised the original schematic, change diode from 1N4007 to 1N4148. I think is a best. Thanks for newton2 for your comment.

And now i have 2 circuit, i'll keep eye on it.   One with 1N4007 and  new on with 1N4148.
Same Battery using AA NiMh, 1.2 V 900 mAh.

Attachment is original schematic, please change 1N4007 to 1N4148

zon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTAqGKt64WM

That looks to me like a Bedini style circuit, and I know because I've built my own "Bedinified" version of Joule Thief. I did not use a toroid core but a ferrite bead with 20 turns of AWG 30-34, bi-filar wound.

You can do away with the 1N diode and the capacitor, they are not really necessary, remember LED is a diode...

The issue I have with these circuits is that they appear to be good for a single LED and 1.2-1.5V battery source only. I hoped to extend them into driving 30+ LEDs from a 3V-6V source, as brilliant as possible, without much luck so far. I tried winding different configurations of coils, even used RStiffler's SEC driver and AV plug, yet brilliance is nothing I want to use as a normal light replacement.

@freezer

Yup, my schematic get inspiration from "make a joule thief" and John Bedini "Simplified School Girl Circuit" and the principle that charge is not consumed but wasted in conventional electrical circuit as mention in "free-energy plans"  look at http://www.opensourceenergy.org/Portals/0/NTForums_Attach/Free_Energy_Plans.pdf .

"Make a joule thief" is a classical circuit, DC-DC converter, where is a cathode of LED connect to ground (-)     It will drawn the battery source.

My diagram combining with bedinied to get "radiant charging" effect where is a cathode of LED connect to  + .  and i put capacitor 470 uf for storage.

@Amigo
Diode must be there, without diode the led will not light on.
Right, this schematic only for load 1 led and "charging" battery type, like NimH, Nicad etc
I try load more led in pararel, and drawn the battery source in certain time.
but if you put led on serial (I have tried with 5 leds) the battery source will not drawn.

@all
Actualty, i don't understand with this phenomena.  I don't have electronic bacground only hobby using bread board :(   and measurement tool using only WOA Digital Multimeter.

Maybe someone could explain to me what happend to it.

Until now the two circuit that i have build still light on and  battery power not drawn at all.


zon

I built a simple voltage-regulated driver circuit to run a pair of high-intensity leds off a single 9v battery for an art installation last November.  While taking down the show, I decided to leave the circuit running to see how long the leds would continue to glow.  Well, it's March now, and the leds are still lit.  Not super-bright, but still quite visible, even in broad daylight.  They have been putting out a flux of photons 24/7 for 4 months, and they don't seem to be getting any dimmer.

Now i upload the pict. It's look bright well


zon

 :) ;) ;D


long road eh?


shift happins .......


ist

why is this in the tpu thread?

@zon

some questions:

1. Which is the absorption to the heads of the battery?
2. Which is the capacity, in mA, of the used battery?
3. From the photo, it seems a rechargeable battery from 1200 MA, is correct ?
4. Which type of LED have you used?

Adriano

@abassign

Question no 1,2 maybe related to my post at http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3599.msg80317.html#msg80317
but i have not take the picture.
Source battery a full battery around 1.356 V
and target / charging battery or used battery around 1 V
After charging , source battery 1.252 Volt and target/charging  battery became 1.340 V

3,  Yup the battery is rechargeable type, NimH.
     Actually i don't know the capacity but if i use in load and compare to another battery, maybe   arround 900 mAh. The battery , i got from my CDMA fixed phone.

4,  Super Bright LED Clear White, 5 mm range IF 20ma - 30 ma, i get it from my friend, used led from him project running led but still working.


@marco

Sorry, it's a wrong thread.
before, i think Toroidal = toroid coil , after I read , i know different :(
Can i change it ? or admin can help us ?


zon

where did that "target battery" come from all of a sudden??

There is no "target battery" in the schematic you posted, nor do I see any in the pics you posted...

What you had was a smartly switched LED driver running off a battery,
but what you describe in this last post sounds like a bedini battery charger
("back-popper") circuit, where your dead battery gets recharged by the
other one...

please explain?

Hello,
look at that :
http://www.elektor-electronics.co.uk/magazines/2007/september/pr4401-led-driver.227959.lynkx (http://www.elektor-electronics.co.uk/magazines/2007/september/pr4401-led-driver.227959.lynkx)

 :)

NICE LINK

but im sure it can get much better lol

ist

Quote from: innovation_station on March 06, 2008, 10:30:52 AM
:)

NICE LINK

but im sure it can get much better lol

ist

:D no doubt  ;)

Quote from: renaud67 on March 06, 2008, 09:59:56 AM
Hello,
look at that :
http://www.elektor-electronics.co.uk/magazines/2007/september/pr4401-led-driver.227959.lynkx (http://www.elektor-electronics.co.uk/magazines/2007/september/pr4401-led-driver.227959.lynkx)

Hey thanks for that link Renaud! :)

So, it seems the trick is fast switching again..?
Well, interesting little circuit...
I am still a little bit puzzled as to how exactly 1.5V at extremely low milliamperage
(with a dead battery usually around the 0,001 to 0,01 mA) could light a LED
(LEDs usually need a couple of hundred milliamps at a couple of volts).
After all, even if you have a circuit that works the voltage up from 1,5V to
the voltage needed to run the LED, and let's use a very positive estimate of 3V for
discussion purposed, then the milliamperage delivered by the battery should
theoretically result in an even lower amperage, according to standard transformer
theory. And LEDs don't just emit light on voltage alone. They need the amperage
too.
Now it may be that the LED is in fact pulsed at the right voltage and amperage
at a high frequency, faster than the human eye can see, and this looks like
the LED burns continually...
But then still, it seems quite a neat trick to run a white LED off a dead AA battery...

Anyone for some more constructive insights? ;)

i dont think i need to fill this thred with my words

do i ??


radient engery   conversion ......      nuf said

ist

Quote from: innovation_station on March 06, 2008, 10:52:35 AM
i dont think i need to fill this thred with my words

do i ??

Well, yes, clearly you do think you need to fill this threAd with your words,
as we can all see you do so.
... bit of an odd post... ;)

Quote
radient engery   conversion ......      nuf said

right... that makes a lot of sense...
So first you post a remark saying that you don't need to post,
which is like saying you're not saying anything,
and then you seem to suggest that "radiant energy conversion"
is the obvious explanation and doesn't need any more elaboration...

anyone can shout "it's radiant energy!".
That doesn't mean a thing.
At least explain how you think it relates to this "radiant energy"?

Holy crap, he's posting garbage here too?

IST put up or shut up, I believe is the saying. If you have nothing to say - don't. If you are just looking for attention this is a wrong outlet to begin with.


@ zon,

In my version I did not use a 1N diode yet the LED(s) would light up. I actually made that "Bedinified" version of the circuit hoping to drive 20-30 LEDs in parallel. Suffice to say it works, but they are not as bright as I'd like them to be (as bright as a super-bright LED connected to a standard 3.5V source for example).

Now there are two different wirings I tested, and my goal was low mA consumption so that the battery lasts days not hours. If the LEDs are  connected to the positive lead of the battery then they consume low mAs, but if you connect them to the negative lead of the battery then they end up in the overdrive (blinding light as well, hehe).

I've noticed that the difference between the two wiring setups when it comes to mA consumption is sometimes factor of 10x (20mA vs 200mA). Of course I was not happy with having 200mA, overdriven LEDs and a quite hot transistor. :)

Koen1:

Just some info for you, and the others.  Over in the earth battery topic back when we were experimenting with the multiple electrode approach (as opposed to our self inducting coils now) I was able to light 2 leds (red) from my two electrode earth cell.  This cell put out ( and is still putting out) only 2vdc and 3 mA.  The lights are bright, maybe not max but I have taken photos and video and posted over there.  I actually ran three at one time but two of them were flashing leds.  The leds I used are rated for 1.7 vdc and 20 mA.  I think they are a lot more efficient than most people think.  the output on the earth cell was measured using both my digital and analog meters.  (Just as a side note, we are now getting about 1 vdc at 80 or so mA)

I like the idea of the circuits discussed on this topic here.  I'll bet my college professors (way back then) could not explain why these do what they do.  Unbelievable.  Thanks.

Bill

Great work guys!


It's becoming clear all this technology is related.  The keys are resonance and switching (to capture radiant energy in negative form from the active vacuum and charge a dipole). 

Fantastic work.  I notice a toroid in your setup.  What kind of core is that?

@ Zon

Can you please detail the winding of your toroid  (bi-filar?)   

Thanks

@ Feynman

You can use a small toroid core or a ferrite bead. I actually did not have a ferrite bead but had small ferrite rings, several stacked together to makeup a bead. On a ferrite bead I do about 20 turns bi-filar wound using 30-34 AWG. For a toroid core in the MAKE video they used plain insulated wire, two lengths of about 10 inches, bi-filar wound to make 7-10 turns.

Thanks amigo

I'm wondering how the initial permeability of the toroid effects the circuit.  (What type ferrite?)    I'm also wondering if there is a way to make this self-running (no battery only caps) like the micro-TPU. . .  except lasting longer than an hour or two.

Also in Zon's circuit, it would be nice to see a scope trace, if for nothing else to figure out the output frequency of the conventional positive EM energy.  Also, perhaps increase the electrolytic capacitor value and see if that allows more LEDs to be added either in series or parallel.  . . and whether the additional load lowers the run time, by how much, etc.
test

Okay, I did some research on this tonight.

LEDs will light up with frequency input anywhere from 0 - 250khz pulsed DC.   The highest I tried was 250khz and it probably works into Mhz.  Watching the light, you can't tell the difference;  the LED looks like it's continuously lit.

The current draw for a standard white LED using continuous DC at 6V through a 1k resistor was approx 15-20mA.   Standard 1.5V NiMH battery is about 2000 mAh, so that should run for approx 100 hours in a conventional setup (sound correct?). 

In my "bedinified" circuit I was running 25 parallel LEDs at a time, but as I said I was not happy with the light illumination. I was using super bright super wide angle white LEDs (these have flat tops) and oscillating frequency depended on the size of the ferrite bead I'd use.

How'd you pick the frequency to send the ferrite?

wow, i return from long holiday, sorry not put notice here.

@Feynman
I take 2 enamelled wire SWG 38 (0.1520mm) and SWG 35 (0.2130mm), same length 120 cm long, bifilar, wound on ferrite
inside diameter 8mm, outside diameter 18 mm, thick 4 mm

Attach picture:
Charging battery, i replace 1N4007 with 1N4148
If you take out the Charging battery/Target battery, the led will lit on for a long-long time

Now, i'll continue eksperiment on charging battery not on led lit on, because charging battery have some interesting and phenomena. :)


zon

Here is latest my observation on charging system.
New circuits,  faster charging than before.

Result :  Time        Source Battery              Target Battery
             15:05        1.306   Volt                   1.273 Volt
             16:15        1.301   Volt                   1.300 Volt
             17:00        1.298   Volt                   1.311 Volt   <---- More voltage than source battery
             18:45        1.296   Volt                   1.333 Volt


Any suggest , where i put this post , better ?


zon

@zon: Thank you for posting your circuits and pics! :)
I like your schematic very much, think it's quite an interesting gadget you've
put together there.
Can you do a few measurements of the amperage coming from those batteries?
I ask because I have noticed that, after use, some batteries show a relatively high
residual voltage at very low, near zero, amperage output, but other batteries
seem to show a much lower voltage at a slightly higher amperage...
It appears to have something to do with the exact manner (intensity) at which
the power is "sucked out" by the circuits used...
I have seen people do measurements on batteries and shout "eureka" when
the target battery showed a slightly higher voltage than the source battery,
only to find later (through depletion tests, run measurements on battery output
until they are completely totally empty) that the total energy available in the
target battery was somehow still lower than that in the source battery, even
though the voltage appeared to be higher.
Mind you, I am not trying to discourage you at all, I just want to say:
keep an eye on the total energy gain and the max available amperage
from your batteries as well. ;)

An interesting matter in my opinion is also: can you get this to work
without batteries, but using capacitors instead?
So let's say we have cap1 at voltage x, and cap2 at voltage zero,
and we use cap1 in stead of your source battery, and cap2 in stead of the target.
If you can get a similar circuit to somehow pump more voltage into
cap2 than was originally available in cap1, then I would get the tendency
to shout "eureka". ;D

Keep it up! :)

Thanks zon for posting the pictures and measurements.

This circuit is *really* interesting.  You would think it's impossible for a source potential to charge a destination potential higher than itself. These might be Bedini/RE type effects.  I am going to try to replicate the 'Zon circuit'; I am curious what it looks like on the scope.

@Koen
Thanks for the clarification regarding battery depletion and potential. That is valuable information.  Let's hope Zon is indeed seeing some form of vacuum resonance.

@ zon

I'm wondering, what is the rationale for using that BC337 in reverse, without the base connected, instead of the diode?

@ Koen1

I guess that it might be possible to replace the batteries, but you still need to have an initial jolt of power come from somewhere else (battery, solar, etc) to start the process. :)

I'm attaching a photo of my ferrite bead coils, each is a 20 turns bi-filar wound AWG 30 or 34 wire. The oscillating frequency increases from left to right.

@amigo
Honestly, i don't have reason for BC337. It's only combining circuit :) where i get from "Domenico Di Mario Circuit's "  look at
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/5185/circuit3.html#CHARGER
Where his say's "Simple electronic circuits and a hypothesis on the connection between electricity and gravity"
My background in business management, i'm just practice on bread board, measurement, and asking to all expert in this forum :)
The three words that make me to do it are "Radiance", "Resonance" and "Energy"

lol,  way to go Zon !  you have done like Bearden says:  don't close the loop!

Btw, you should take some current readings by putting your meter in series.  =)


@amigo

Thanks for posting the pics

@feynman

Measuring with BC 337
at lead  - (ground) of target battery  2.17 mA,
at lead -  (ground) of source battery 15.25 mA

Measuring with IN4148
at lead  - (ground) of target battery 5.33 mA
at lead  -  (ground) of source battery 13.56 mA

Now, I stiil monitoring on BC 337 with base lead not connected.


@Amigo
Could u give me arrangement coil,  where can i get oscilation  range 30khz - 35 khz
Could BC 549 to do that.

regards
zon

Interesting... so positive current flow is a net loss, but the transferred potential is increasing.


I personally can see a couple of explanations.

1) what Koen mentioned, that it's coming from the 'battery potential' measurement effect, with no RE charging.

2) It's RE.  The current draw is net loss, like a Bedini motor, but there is actually RE negative energy entering the circuit  (remember that negative RE does not have current, since it flows by Dirac electron-holes.  You can only see negative energy indirectly.).

I think the only way to know for sure is to do load testing on the batteries.

@Koen

Can you think of a good load test to determine whether Zon's battery is getting charged with Bedini/Bearden-type negative RE, or whether this is a measurement artifact?

@Zon

I will replicte your circuit once I get the toroids.  I will measure frequency on the scope and give you the information I collect. 

I like the idea of substituting supers caps for the battery.  Then, since caps do not generate electricity, power measurements should be easy to do.  I don't know who proposed this idea but I like it.

Bill

I have check again my gadget at my room where the led still lit on (24 hours, never turn off).
I've been make mistake on drawing schematic as i post before.
I attach the new schematic according the gadget acctually. Change on BC 549 , swap emitter with collector.

Now, i ve measurement of current at point P & Q,  at P  -->  1 mA and at Q  --> 6 mA.
Maybe . is it the answer, why the led will lit on for long-long time.

Anyway with charging system schematic, i got benefit for revive my used NimH battery.
Now, that battery can be charging with ordinary charging and storage well

zon

@Zon,
what advantage has it to run the transistor the wrong way around ?
Still drawing 6 mA from the battery and only 1 mA going into the LED ?
So what is the efficiency ?

@hartiberlin
i build that gadget for first time, purpose to make the longest time to light LED with single AA battery and a few component.. 

and now , i continoue eksperimen  to get efficiency and "something".

i got a clue from my friend, who already make gadget. "Oscilating minimum 30 Khz  to maksimum 350 Khz (100%)"
but he don't want sharing to us what exactly what he make it.
I'll do the best  i can and get some clue from him

zon

Lol thanks Bill ;)

Indeed, by switching the batteries for capacitors, power measurements
should prove a lot easier.

@Feynman: Well, there are some characteristics of the Bedini tech that you could
check for...
One of the things regularly mentioned by people who have built or experimented
with Bedini motor/chargers is that the batteries that are charged using the
"negative energy spike"/"back emf pulse"/"RE pulse" whatever you want to call it,
often just die after they have been used for a while. When such a battery, that
no longer accepts the "negative energy spike" charging pulse, is connected
to a normal grid-powered battery charger, it "eats" or "sucks up" a lot more
electricity than it should be able to hold.
Some accounts describe how the battery was charged for a couple of hours,
using electricity, but it remains "flat" for a long time, and only after a multitude
of the normal charging period will it start to accept and hold charge again.
I have been told this is an effect that can be caused by "deep cycle charging"
of a battery, and in relation to this it has been suggested that Bedini "merely"
deep-cycles his batteries using hV pulses, but does not actually harness any
"radiant energy" at all. That interpretation comes down to it being a sort of trick,
that somehow "jolts" the battery into depleting itself chemo-structurally,
thereby giving up electrical energy that it would not give off in normal operation.
Or at least, that seems to be the only viable explanation for a battery first
seeming to churn out more energy that it normally should, only to suck up a lot
more energy than it normally should too...

That said, there is a variation on the theme.
This is the "splitting the positive" approach that uses capacitors (instead of
batteries; the "normal" "splitting the positive" approach also uses batteries).
I believe on of our fellow forum members here worked on that for a while,
and I'm not sure but I seem to recall he claimed some limited success
using only caps.

In any case, I think making a capacitor-only version would be the best
test, and the best way to minimise measurement artifacts.

@Koen

Thanks for the post. I agree that devices using capacitors are the only easy way to prove OU circuits. Regarding Bedini, I know for a fact that he is not using HV deep charging or any other conventional technique.  I know this because  in energy from the vacuum part II (which you can get on bittorrent), Bedini lights a lamp by touching it to PLASTIC.

The only type of electricity which flows through an insulator like that is negative energy. 

Quote from: Feynman on March 12, 2008, 09:55:56 AM

The only type of electricity which flows through an insulator like that is negative energy. 

Or radio frequency energy.
The spikes really have high component RF energy bursts and the neon lamp has
antenna wires connected to them, so it is clear that it is lighting up due to the RF energy
being present near the batteries.

I experimented already with a pulsed charger circuit which I drove a few NiMh batteries with
and they lasted very long this way charged up.
I used them in my camera and almost got double the running time  with the camera
on such a pulsed charge.

I still need to build that charger better up for
using it permanently so I can test it out some more times.

Probably you are right, that once the batteries are used to get their
charge from pulses they don?t like to get charged anymore the normal
constant DC current way, so it is best adviced to only use these pulse
chargers from now on.

Regards, Stefan.

Thank you Stefan, that's a very good point.  Since we are dealing with oscillation, we are dealing with RF. That would explain the proximity effect in the energy from the vacuum video. 

I think one good way to understand what is happening would be to put a spectrum analyzer near the battery with the circuit on and off.  They are a bit pricey, but hopefully we will be able to do spectrum analysis on the local transverse EM energy at some point.

(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftest1.contenttest.net%2Fimages%2FSpectran3000.jpg&hash=8631b5afd15741aa252263a2efd6cf830eb11dff)

(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftest1.contenttest.net%2Fimages%2FSoftware.gif&hash=a057d0fe3e58b901c2bdda72a8f0c737a43a4f00)

http://www.spectran.com (http://www.spectran.com)

Here's some information about pulsing leds, that you might be interested in.

http://members.misty.com/don//ledp.html

On another note, there was this guy on another forum who built this kind of circuit without the toroid.  He said he used something like 20 transistors to make it work, but the link to the schematic he posted was dead so I couldn't see how he did it.

@Feynman:
Well, I am not entirely certain about the claimed "negative energy" thing...
I have read/studied Beardens books and dvds "Energy from the Vacuum",
as well as the special edition "Free Energy Generation" which contains
Bedinis original and later motor/charger designs and Bedinis own theory,
and I have exchanged some email with Bearden discussing the topic.
There is some room for discussion there.
Bearden has decided for himself that there must be "negative energy"
involved, although he does not really substantiate that very well.
He comes up with an extensive theory involving "Dirac sea holes",
which are to space/time what normal "electron holes" a.k.a. "deficit electrons"
are to a (semi)conductor. So basically where normal "holes" are points
in the material matrix where an electron used to be but has just left that
position so a relatively positive spot remains, these "Dirac sea holes"
are points in space/time that are relatively positively charged, but
in contrast to normal "holes" these "Dirac sea holes" are not an artifact
of the material matrix, but rather an actual anti-charge in space.
And of course, as is the case with al "Dirac" particles, they only have a
very brief period of "existance" before annihilating with their antiparticles
like Dirac sea particles do all the time.
All nice, but according to Bearden we can basically "shock" these "Dirac
sea holes" into existence long enough to use them as actual positive charges.
Now this is where Bearden pulls in Bedini, as Bedinis motor/chargers seem
to produce an extraordinary positive charge pulse right after the original
pulse of hV DC.
Bedini himself appears to refer to this as a "positive potential spike".
The main trick here, as described by Bedini and Bearden, is apparently
to generate a very brief and strong hV pulse, and make sure you have a
circuit that can "isolate" that pulse from the following "positive potential spike"/
"negative energy pulse". Bedini does this using a timer circuit and/or a sensor
component and/or an oldschool mechanical commutator connected to the motor shaft,
to ensure that the section of the circuitry that is supposed to collect this positive
pulse is effectively disconnected from the rest of the circuitry during the time period
in which the original "drive" pulse is applied, and as soon as this normal energy pulse
has passed the selected "double action" section the connections are switched
so that the positive pulse ("negative energy pulse") cannot follow the original pulse
into the main "driver" circuit, but is forced to take the only other available path,
which leads it to a capacitor that receives this "positive charge" and as a result
also pulls in negative charge a.k.a. electrons on the other cap plate.

now that all sounds nice, but one may wonder what the reality is of "holes"/"deficit
electrons" that are not structurally part of a material...
In fact, it's a return to the old view that one can still find in certain very old electrophysics
books, where electrical current is not just a matter of electrons moving through a conductor,
but where they actually treat current and charge as if there are truly two opposing charge carriers:
the positive charge carrier, responsible for the + charge and + pole, and the negative charge carrier,
which attract each other.
In later views, the positive charge carrier was replaced by the "hole", or local electron deficiency in the
material matrix. That works, and many of the explanations involving positive charge carriers are still
valid for "holes", except forthe fact that they are no longer seen as actual particles but rather as a
non-particle with a non-charge, which is only positive relative to an actual negative particle, but has no
absolute charge at all. Funny enough, these non-particles with non-charge still flow through the material
matrix in reaction to electric fields, and they also collide with electrons moving through the material,
so it remains a bit of a shady area... Non-particles bumping into particles? Sure... ;)
Now what Bearden says is basically that the establishment threw away the baby with the bathwater
when they did away with positive charge carriers in electrodynamics and replaced it with the "hole"
concept. He claims that "holes" are a reality, but not the only "positive charge carrier", and that
the "Dirac sea holes" are in fact actual positive charge carriers in space/time.

Positive charges, alright, I can work with that.
But negative energy is something else, I think.
When energy is some measurement of how much force can be exerted,
then energy can never be negative. After all, how do you want to exert a negative force?
You can push something forward, and you're clearly using a positive amount of energy to do so.
Now if you pull the object back, are you using negative energy to do so?
No, you're not. You're still using a positive amount of energy, but you have directed it oppositely.
Does the same not apply to these "positive potential spikes" (Bedini terminology) or
"negative energy pulses" (Bearden terminology)?
If you push a lot of electrical charge into a conductor, you are inputting positive energy.
But if you pull electrical charge out of a conductor, are you inputting negative energy?
No, you're still using a positive amount of energy.
Is the electrical charge pulled out of the conductor now "negative energy"?
No, the electrical charge is still charge, which can still be used, and will still turn into
a positive amount of energy.
Negative potential a.k.a. a relative deficiency of electrical charge, is not automatically
a negative energy form.

This in my opinion is where Bearden takes a bit of a leap.
He clearly claims that such a "negative energy pulse" will absorb more energy while
traversing a conductor, and grow in strength and energy content.
I don't see Bedini make that leap, by the way. ;)
But it seems to me that a true negative energy content would simply be nullified
when it absorbs positive energy forms, just like a "hole" and an electron cancel
eachother out chargewise.

That said, there are ways to explain why the observed positive potential spike
seems to grow when traversing a conductor, but they have to do more with
the actual spatial movement pattern of the various charges and their fields,
and this borders heavily on if not barges straight into the realm of...
RF! ;D
And here we go, there we link into Stefans post again: radio freq. :)

For a description of such a pattern, basically a vector pattern in spacetime,
I would have to write a lot of text, multiple pages, which I shall not do now.
Those of you with a good imagination should be able to imagine what vector
pattern goes along with a generated high voltage pulse that is followed by
an oppositely charged voltage "pulse" according to said pattern.

I hope all that is informational and not just plain confusing. :)

Kind regards,
Koen

Fantastic post Koen.  I will need to write more when I can sit down and study, I am at work at the moment. 

I do not think Bearden has the full picture.   But I think he probably has 50-90% correct.  The Dirac Sea was not invented by Bearden.  It was invented by Dirac . . . And Dirac shared the Nobel Prize with Schr?dinger in 1933 for "new productive forms of atomic theory".   However, I do not think Dirac had the full picture either.

Negative energy or not, we will only learn the full picture by experiment, disproving theories by methodical experimention. This is why this board is great, because people are actually doing new experiments.

Cheers,
Feynman

Excerpt from Dirac's 1933 Nobel Prize lecture

QuoteOne would thus be inclined to introduce, as a new assumption of the
theory, that only one of the two kinds of motion occurs in practice. But this
gives rise to a difficulty, since we find from the theory that if we disturb
the electron, we may cause a transition from a positive-energy state of motion
to a negative-energy one, so that, even if we suppose all the electrons
in the world to be started off in positive-energy states, after a time some of
them would be in negative-energy states.
Thus in allowing negative-energy states, the theory gives something which
appears not to correspond to anything known experimentally, but which we
cannot simply reject by a new assumption. We must find some meaning for
these states.

http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1933/dirac-lecture.pdf

Nice digging Feynman ;)
I know the lecture but thanks for the link, now I have the pdf too. :)

I'd like to point out another sentence in that same passage you quoted:

QuoteThus in allowing negative-energy states, the theory gives something which
appears not to correspond to anything known experimentally

Which is a bit of a problem if you want to prove something is really "negative energy"
and not just appears to be negative or relatively negative...
But that not a very strong argument and I know it ;)

Quote, but which we cannot simply reject by a new assumption.
We must find some meaning for these states.

And this is what we're doing.

Perhaps I should point out that I am not opposed to the idea of
a negative energy carrier may exist, in case I gave that impression.
I'm fine with it, I just think there may very well be a different and much
less exotic explanation for the observed "negative energy"
in the Bedini devices.
Whether or not it really is "negative energy" is not as important
as achieving over unity, I think. ;)

Thanks, my God.
All of u be the witness what i build.

Continue on experiment "Single AA bettery to light WHITE LED for long-long time"
The latest circuit, I have try.
I think , this is,  the longest led will lit on

See attach pict, I turn the third coil on bifilar coil as before, same length 1200 mm ( i don't count number of turn).

I forget put note capacitor on pict, there is 470 uf / 25v

Look at pict , posibbility connection:
    1.   D---F  and  E---G   
    2    D--G  and  E---F

I think , that depend on north -south of EM.
    +  for North
     -  for South

Connect north coil with single cable 1 meters as antenna (horizontal), and south to earth

I'm happy and now the battery very-very small drawn joule !

zon


(sorry.. for my poor english)

Thanks Zon!

Can't wait to see some readings on that circuit :)

Thanks for posting your experiments, they are very interesting,
and it is good to have someone like you here.

May I ask what exactly you mean when you say
"I turn the third coil on bifilar coil"?
Do you mean to say you used three bifilar coils,
or do you mean that you've wound three bifilar
coils around one core, or do you mean to say that you've
wound three wires around one core to get a sort of
3-wire "bifilar" so actually a "trifilar" coil?
I'm sorry for the questions, but I like to get things straight.

@koen1

I turn third coil (single coil) on the top bifilar coil or after i make turn bifilar coil.

The clue from my friends, oscilation between 30khz - 350 khz

zon.

@zon,

My first attemt to replicate your circuit.

The circuit uses 0,07 A @ 1,2 Volt (84 mW) and the LED is lit full bright.
My battery is a NiMeh 1600mA.

Groundloop.

wow just look at that knot of electrical wire :D

but it looks good, doesn't it?
Nice replication, certainly for a first attempt. :)

@Koen1,

Somewhere inside that knot of wire there is a Ferrite toroid.  ;D

Groundloop.

@zon,

How much input current and at what voltage is your circuit using from your battery?

Groundloop.

@Groundloop

nicely done!

i can't wait until my toroids get here. 

@Feynman,

Why wait? If you can find a non working PC power supply then you have your toroid.
I even found a MPS2222, the two diodes, a capacitor and the resistor in one of my
old (defect) power supply's.

Groundloop.

Good idea  ;D ;D ;D

Now I have enough experiments to fill the whole weekend!    All I need now is the favorite local beer.

@All,

I removed the electrolytic capacitor. I found it unnecessary. My 1600mA NiMeh is now almost emty.
I started out with 1,2 Volt (Twelve hours ago) and is now down to 0,585 Volt on the battery.

Now the funny stuff. My ultra bright white LED is still lit. I reckon the light output from the LED is down
to 1/8 of full brightness. The oscillator is still running well. The voltage seems to have leveled out and is
steady on 0,585 Volt. The battery is not being drained anymore?

I will let the circuit run through the night. We will see tomorrow if the battery still holds a charge or not.

Groundloop.

@all of u will make replicate

Please keep the ratio of Bedini SG diameter of coil , why i use SWG 38 (0.1520mm)  and SWG 35 (0.2130mm) for  bifilar coil.

Bedini SG Ratio  Trigger Coil / Power coil
         AWG 26 / AWG 23  =  0.4040 mm / 0.5740 mm = 0.7038

My Ratio :    SWG 38  / SWG 35 = 0.1520 mm / 0.2130 mm = 0.7136    (near to)   

The third coil, number of turn and diameter are free,  depend on the load u want put it.

If third coil generate/transform more voltage, maybe will burn your led.

With third coil , we can make high voltage gun :)

zon


Note: DANGER ! : Please keep of your eye not stare on the led.
        Put a papertape on the "glass" of LED for safety.

Here's my setup (for the past couple of months). I have taken several photos as I was adding more LEDs to the circuit tonight just for fun. Remember this is NOT the original setup as per OP but my modified version of the Joule Thief.

I'm adding the photos in sequence, and they are labeled as well, so it should be easy for you to follow. First one is the circuit schematics.

@amigo

How long your "led circuit" lit on,  for drain that battery with load  one led.

May i know, how many turn bifilar coil to get oscilation between 30 Khz --- 350 Khz.

zon

@amigo

Nice pictures! 

I will cannibalize a toroid asap.  Nice scope also.   Interesting wave!!!!   I don't see a SINE wave there, I see a sharp gradient! 


@zon

There is probably a formula you can use to get a rough idea of oscillation frequency.  I will post the formula if I can figure it out once I build your circuit.  You can also use a scope or frequency counter to see.  You can get good deals on these equipment on ebay sometimes. 

Thank you for the coil diameter ratio. That is a really good idea.  I purchased the closest ratio I could get (since I am in America all the measurements are different!). 

@ Feynman,

thanks, I believe picture is "worth thousand words" and if it helps others, even better :)

@ zon,

I have not really kept the circuit on for extended periods of time, I simply figured based on 12mA of current that it would last days, based on the 2300mAh battery I use. I guess I should do a real test, perhaps tomorrow night I'll keep it on and see what happens.

Below is the photo of the ferrite bead I used and the coil itself. The wire used is 30 AWG bi-filar wound to 20 turns. I might try with AWG 34 and 39 and see what happens, my guess is that the oscillating frequency would change. Right now with this coil you can see it start at 100KHz, but if you add more LEDs the frequency goes down...

@groundloop

On my latest circuit's, after running more than 24 hours

Measurement at the led,  3mA,  2.7 VDC

at (-) battery 1.291 VDC, 13.85 mA

@amigo
I can't  figured how long it will drain, based on cureent at one point, because at certain time it will drain very slow...
It's like ridding bycycle, more power on the start but "less power" after on the road.



zon

@All,

Good morning. My circuit has run through the night. The battery voltage has CLIMED a tiny bit
since yesterday. It is now 0,588 Volt over the battery. I will let the circuit run through the day.
It will be fun to see how long this circuit can run on that single battery before the LED stop lighting.

This is really amazing!

Groundloop.

@ All:

One of my Stubblefield earth battery bifilar coils puts out over 30mA by itself, not even in the ground yet, just a little wet.  I'll bet it would replace the AA battery in your circuits.  If I can, I will give it a try.  These are bifilar coils with an iron core and cotton insulation between the iron core, iron wire, and copper wire. (all the wire is bare)  When in the ground they should put out power forever.  This should be interesting.

Bill

@groundloop

After you get conclusion on your's circuit, please follow the ratio of bifilar coil. You will see different.

@bill

as my friend said, if we can harmonize/tuned oscilation with earth it will puts out / pull "something". Range of harmonize/tunning area of earth betweeen 30 Khz --- 350 Khz.
Where he get that number, he never told me.


zon

@Bill,

It will be more intresting if this circuit as it is now turns out to be running an "impossible" long
time from a depleted NiMeh battery. The LED is bright enough to actually read a book in total
darkness. (Yes, I have tested that.)

Now a "far out" theory:

The fully depleted NiMeh battery (less than 0,590 Volt) is now performing as a high value capacitor.
Because the circuit loads the battery and the battery can not and will not provide any charge then
the active environment is putting in the energy needed to keep the oscillator going. The battery is just like a spring, we try to stretch that spring even further to get our energy to the circuit, but the battery can not
do that anymore because it is empty, so the energy must be taken from somewhere else. Thus, we have created a negative resistor inside the battery.

(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.com%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3D4223.0%3Battach%3D20071%3Bimage%255Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.com%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3D4223.0%3Battach%3D20071&hash=5eca6cced8988d6f9cdc3160c85e12b0e0c93550)

Another theory is the way this circuit works. The three diodes and the output coil makes a loop of current circulating one way only. The oscillator keeps that loop running at each pulse. Because the speed of the circulating current is very high the extra energy is coupled back to the driving coil and thus charge the battery.

Just some thoughts................

Groundloop.

@ Groundloop:

You don't think the same principle would apply when using a Stubblefield bifilar coil in the ground?  I see what you are saying about what you think the "dead" battery is doing and I don't/can't disagree as I am still limited in my knowledge of electronics.  I think it might be possible that the cell in the ground might just have the same reaction as the AA battery.  Maybe not.  So many experiments to do, so little time.

Bill

@Bill,

Yes it could be so. I really don't know. I did some experimenting with ground batteries some years ago.
I used Zinc and Copper plates in the ground. I found that the ground battery works but the output was
very low. I did compute that if I wanted any real power (to use a heat, light etc.) then I would have to
make my batteries cover a football field. I do not know if a earth battery is improved by coiling etc.
because I have never tried that.

Anyway, I did measure the frequency of my circuit. I put a pickup antenna close to the circuit and used my spectrum analyzer to see the output. My center freqency is close to 2MHz.

[EDIT] I did measure 62,5 KHz with my scope. So the 2MHz is an over harmonic oscillation.
          I'm sorry for my mistake.

Groundloop.

Quote from: Groundloop on March 14, 2008, 03:20:51 AM

Anyway, I did measure the frequency of my circuit. I put a pickup antenna close to the circuit and used my spectrum analyzer to see the output. My center freqency is close to 2MHz.

Groundloop.

2MHz, What is mean ? I never use the osciloscope and I am still limited in my knowledge of electronics.
I'm just do it with my lovely bread board :)

Is it oscilating frequency... ?

Oops , it's out of area harmonize , 30 Khz --- 350 Khz     

I forget to tell, 1200 mm length of coil , it's not exactly must follow,  i'm just fill the toroid :))
i don't know the formula.

"Joule Thief" makes switch on and off about 50,000 times a second (50Khz). It's within that harmonize area. Maybe they don't know "the harmonize area"

Please find oscilating frequency in that area, 350 Khz is the best efficient


zon

@zon,

It means that the oscillator runs with 2 million pulses each second. Those pulses create radio waves.
Those radio waves can be picked up with an antenna and sown on a frequency spectrum display.
My frequency spectrum display is connect to my computer so that I can "see" all the radio waves
in a graphic chart. The strength of the signal is at left on the graph and the frequency at the bottom.
The stronger the signal the higher up the graphic will go. It is measured in dBm (decibels over Milli Watt).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DBm

[EDIT] It is the frequency of the oscillator. I'm not sure if your low frequency is better. For the first time in my 5 year long research into free energy (and in my 40 years of playing with electronic) have I seen something that I find amazing! I have never before seen a LED being light up from a "dead" battery. The voltage stays the same and the circuit just keep going and going and going...........  :D

[EDIT] I found that the oscillator runs at 62,5KHz and the 2MHz I saw on my spectrum analyzer was an over harmonic oscillation frequency. I'm sorry for my mistake!

Groundloop.

Quote from: Groundloop on March 14, 2008, 04:15:44 AM

It is measured in dBm (decibels over Milli volt).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DBm

Hi Groundloop,

With highest respect but I cannot help but notice: dBm is decibels over Milli Watt and not volt, ok?  (See your link too.)  When you see using symbol dBu, it surely means decibels over microVolt but here the V symbol is usually omitted just like the W symbol in case of dBm, right?

Respectfully, 
Gyula

@gyulasun,

Yes, you are 100% correct.

[EDIT] Circuit still running.

Groundloop.

Try this circuit.
Saves 2 diodes losses and light output doubles.

Regards, Stefan.

@Groundloop,
please let your battery run on it and see, how low the voltage will go.
It will probably stay around 0.5 Volts for a long time and really suck up
environmental energy this way.

@All,
best will be to use a 3 wire parallel bifilar coil on the toroid.
Best would be to drill the 3 wires together before winding it ,
so the coupling between the 3 wires is highest,
like in a Bedini coil.

Stefan,

Yes, I will keep the circuit running until the LED goes dim.
I do not know how long time that will take.  :D
I will try your ideas but on a new circuit.

Groundloop.

@All,

Here is my 9VDC version. If I use a fully charged battery then the LED will light full bright.
With a depleted (5,29V) battery then the LED will still light dimly.

The resistor is controlling how much current to use. If you use a lower value then this circuit
will run from any voltage.

One funny thing, with my high Ohm resistor and very little current usage from the battery,
the LED will only light when connected ONE way. If I turn the LED around then it goes black.

Any ideas why this happens?

[EDIT] I changed the 2N3904 to a PN2222A. Much better transistor for this application.

Groundloop.

@stefan
Thanks for the schematics

@groundloop, stefan, zon, amigo

My vote is for "negative resistor" theory, since it is consistent with QED and the work of Bearden and Bedini.  However, we cannot exclude any possibility at this point, to include hitting resonance with the Earth's magnetic field.  The one problem with Earth field theory is that we are not in the ELF frequency range, so it is difficult for me to see how this extra energy is entering the circuit at tens of kilohertz. But anything is possible.

My personal suspicion is that we are possibly hitting the internal resonance of the coils and toroid, and pulling energy from the local active vacuum which is deposited into the battery and/or capacitors. I suspect the sharp gradient of the switching circuit has something to do with this, but again, this is purely speculation on my part.

What happens when the battery is removed? 

The LED goes out

Therefore, the battery is providing the power for the LED

No mystery.

This is very similar to the type of circuit in an 'analog' quartz watch.  The battery pulses a coil, that turns the hands.  A tiny button battery can run one for over a year.

OU?

no!

Groundloop, I missed that spectrum analysis!    Wow !!   Very exciting.  Harmonics in megahertz?/?  muhahahahhaa

@magnetoelastic

Bedini circuits are OU.  This is based upon Bedini circuit.   But you are right.  To really prove this properly, we need to figure out how to run it using capacitors.

Offer me solutions, offer me alternatives, and I decline!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qhWf8v15AU

@magnetoelastic,

Nobody in this thread has claimed that this circuit is a o/u device.

What is special with this circuit is the ability to light up a LED that normally
need a much higher voltage than 1,2 Volt.

Groundloop.

Yeah, I agree.  We don't know if it's OU .   But strange enough to warrent ... EXPERIMENTS!!!   :D  8) ;)



*EDIT:  @groundloop
Just an interesting note....

I took the over harmonics and divided by base frequency in your circuit:
2Mhz / 62500hz = 32
4Mhz / 62500hz = 64

Could these be artifacts or are they real?  In music, these overtones would be 5 and 6 octaves above the fundamental.

*EDIT:
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg231.imageshack.us%2Fimg231%2F289%2Fgroundloopoctavero7.jpg&hash=f527d509bb53ee85e3f3efd1d3fb3f70ecea08dd)

@Feynman,

The spectrum analyzer could have picked up other stuff, I admit that. My computer, wireless telephone, adsl modem etc. can also affect the antenna. So don't take the scan as 100% proof of over harmonic oscillations. I will check better next time I measure. For now the circuit is running well and I want to let it run until the LED goes out. Then I can change battery and do another scan of the circuit.

Groundloop.

@Groundloops

Sorry, I wasn't trying to suggest they were interference (I think the harmonics are from the circuit)... I meant... 1) are the harmonics artifacts from the DSP in the spectrum analyzer/antenna and if not, 2) what are the practical significance of the harmonics?   Are they caused by the harmonic-rich sharp wave?  Why five octaves up? 

I think the 2Mhz harmonic comes from the circuit.  It's an exact multiple of 32, so it's five octaves higher.  (Take 2,000,000hz / 62,500 hz) = 32.  Then 2^x = 32???  Well x = 5, so five octaves.

Anyway Faraday cage is one way to know for sure, maybe measure inside your microwave   ;).   

@Zon

The higher frequencies don't mean your circuit isn't 25-350khz.... it just means there are higher frequency 'reflections'. I think your circuit is probably base freq 25-350khz. We are still trying to figure out what this means.  Groundloop is just seeing higher frequency echoes.

@ Stefan

I agree with your ideas, I think Bedini style is good idea here.

@all

No mail today. Just opened old tape deck , no toroids, but now I have some nice inductors and caps!  I'll open an old computer PS and see if I can find a toroid to get a replication going. I'm interested in the phenomenon here, what exactly is causing this... is this just a really efficient LED driver or are we dealing with something more?

@Feynman,

OK, now I get it. I think there are over harmonics. When I look at the scope there was very sharp spikes.
So the oscillation is spike like. If the pulse is somewhat like an square pulse then there can be all sorts of over harmonic frequencies. I do not have a Faraday cage right now. I'm working on my version 3 right now. Will post later.

Groundloop.

Quote from: Groundloop on March 14, 2008, 03:42:20 PM
...
One funny thing, with my high Ohm resistor and very little current usage from the battery,
the LED will only light when connected ONE way. If I turn the LED around then it goes black.

Any ideas why this happens?

Hi Groundloop,

It happens because the switch-off pulse (I mean the induced voltage due to the collapsing flux just after switch-off) has got a definite polarity (usually it is opposite to the supply voltage) and LEDs need forward voltage polarity to give out light.  So if you turn it around, it will get reverse voltage polarity, hence no light.  You can check pulse polarity with your oscilloscope of course.

Gyula

Perhaps we should also explore why does 2N2222 perform better than 2N3904. I have noticed this over and over again in the past months while experimenting with the Joule Thief and my modification circuit.

2N3904 appears to be a poor performer while 2N2222 excels compared to it, yet when measured, both transistors had similar hFE here, so it must be some other characteristic that contributes to overall LED brightness and longevity.

I'm going to run more tests this weekend just to see what happens and report here...

@all,

if you look at all of the numbers in this thread, in the rodin math type base nine i think you will find  alot of, 1,2,4,8,7,5's, i wonder how the 3,9,6's can be incoporated to make this work.  the rest of the math seems to be in place!  just a thought.

lol
sam

I have started my replication.   It is trifilar , 30 AWG (0.2540mm)  and will be drilled.  I couldn't find any other wire, so no Bedini ratio (0.70) this time around.  But I will be able to try a few different circuit configurations. 

The German beer is in honor of Stefan.   :D

(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg233.imageshack.us%2Fimg233%2F7343%2Fzon1se7.jpg&hash=a117803205a86f4a111cd33e5fd5f38c806e5218)

@all

Thanks for all your attention.
We just build, see, measure, analyse, make conclusion, maybe some formula.

Here is the whole concept what i got from him.

Oscilation Device  --- Coupling/transform to coil (like third coil what we do) -- put antenna on north and ground to earth at south --- earth energy (we hope) will enter to system via this coil with harmonization --- (we hope) will get VDC --- Charging Battery ---- Inverter  --- we will get VAC enough to use the entire our house.

Oscilation Device could be solid state, mechanical etc and should run within range 30 Khz --- 350 Khz (Harmonize Earth Energy)
This concept i called it "Harmonize Earth Energy Capturing Concept (HEECC)"

If u can build device based on hisconcept, thanks God.
U can give him donate through our lovely forum organization. :)

This concept, i publish to this forum for better our live and save our environment.

regards


zon

@zon,

If you want a tuned antenna (1/4 wave long) at 100KHz then the antenna will be approx. 750 meter long.
Not practical for a free energy device. Then the antenna has to be outside not protected from lightning.

BTW: My battery is now so low in charge that the LED is very dim. It is no longer possible to read a
book in total darkness with the light from the LED. The voltage has dropped to 0,582 Volt.

Groundloop.

Hi Groundloop,
just try to use a 4th coil on the core to pulse some  pulses
back via a rectifier diode into the battery.
Then the "dipole will last longer".. as Bearden says.

Stefan,

I'm playing with different setups. Attached is my newest creation. It was a attempt to "recycle" back some lost energy to the battery. The circuit runs and the LED is at full brightness when run from a newly charged Ni Cad battery(1,2V 600mA). The battery is draining so no free energy. I can't see how a 4th coil will improve anything. The Lentz law will prevent any extra gain in the circuit. I think the trick is to find a circuit that will light the LED at full brightness for the longest possible time from one battery. So an energy saver is better than nothing.

[EDIT] I got 18 hours of full brightness from a 1,2V 600mA NiCad battery. That is approx. 30mA to the LED.

Groundloop.

@groundloop

The antenna not related Harmonized Earth Energy, thus one meter enough. Without antenna it can be but not efficient.

@all

in our circuit experiment, the battery only powering oscilation device (we hope). If we make more efficient oscilation device circuit, the battery will drain slowly. Harmonize Earth Energy come to third coil.
Third coil diameter and turns number depend on the load. u want it.

zon

I replicated the groundloop version of the circuit with trifilar drill winding.  It's working.

(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.com%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3D4223.0%3Battach%3D20071%3Bimage%255Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.com%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3D4223.0%3Battach%3D20071&hash=5eca6cced8988d6f9cdc3160c85e12b0e0c93550)

...Where to start....

1) lower oscillation frequency is giving me higher output voltage on the LED (16khz is better than 92khz).

2) my analog scope traces look ridiculous; I can see infolded waves float across the CRT inside the standing wave on certain time intervals.  I need to to determine whether or not I am picking up RF.

3) An electrolytic in parallel across the LED gives brighter output.

4) There are definitely very fast harmonics in megahertz which are occuring during the voltage transient. 

5) Using the 1k resistor, I measure a max of around 18V across gnd/coil 2 during the transient.


I will post details soon, still trying to figure out what to make of all this. I will also replicate the other circuits, post full results , scope traces etc etc.

@Feynman,

I found that the electrolytic capacitor over the LED did give a brighter LED but the current usage was higher.

Groundloop.

lol, I just realized that

...I'm wondering if there is a way to combine this circuit with EM's micro-TPU somehow...

@Feynman,

Everything is possible.

@zon,

Can you make a drawing describing where your antenna and ground connection should be in your circuit?

Groundloop.

Okay here's my toroid!  Red white blue windings for home country 'US and A' !!

(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg218.imageshack.us%2Fimg218%2F691%2Ftoroidww0.jpg&hash=e6713c67d6c9cf864e11a11fcec0e23a8ff21d20)

More photos from my latests tests; I have taken my own advice from couple of posts back where I suggested to explore why 2N2222 works better than 2N3904.

The configuration now is similar to the original Joule Thief schematic except that the LEDs are not grounded but connected to the + of the source battery like in the Bedini circuit. Left side of the photo is using 2N7000 N-FET while the right side is using 2N2222; both circuits have 7 LEDs each of the same kind (generic super bright white).
When connected to the batteries (~1.3V 2300mAh NiMH) the circuits consume about 10mA of current each (the right circuit was adjusted to consume 10mA by using two resistors in series: 4K7 and 2K to the base of the transistor). The left circuit does not have any resistors - top of the coil on the driver side is directly connected to the base.

Very important note that I have observed is that a DMM connected to measure current will skew the oscillating frequency and boost it up which is obviously inaccurate and should not be done. Have the DMM connected, measure the current, then disconnect it from the circuit and then run the circuit normally with the scope connected.

Judging by the photos, the left side is brighter than the right which shows we should do more experiments with the FET transistors... :)

Thanks amigo, great work.

The fact that your circuit is only consuming 10mA is remarkable.  I'm sure these sorts of power supplies will be useful as emergency flashlights, as they operate using an otherwise "dead" AA battery.

Here is a picture of the output, measured at the cathode (+) of the LED, using the groundloop version (trifilar) of joule thief.  I will also attempt amigo's and zon's versions as well.  Anyway, with groundloops version and a 23.5mm toroid with 30AWG (0.2540mm) wire trifilar drilled, I am getting just under 20khz as the circuit frequency.

(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg219.imageshack.us%2Fimg219%2F7654%2Ffrequencygb3.jpg&hash=bc119577ffddbbc9b21474ca7292c8ff9dfa8220)

EDIT:  V/div = 0.2 , T/div = 10us  .. but those transient peaks are real high, anywhere from 2V - 18V depending on where in the circuit you attach the probe.

Quote from: Feynman on March 14, 2008, 05:20:17 PM
Yeah, I agree.  We don't know if it's OU .   But strange enough to warrent ... EXPERIMENTS!!!   :D  8) ;)

Hi

I have played with many of these types of devices a couple of years ago and as they are presented here they are not OU devices.
But they can be.
For this to be, you only need to put in a verry small spark gap and make sure the voltage is sufficient.
Im not talking about millimeters sparkgap but rather one hunderth of a millimeter.
Much like when you use two pencils and the tips are almost touching each other.
The miniature spark will imediatly push up circuit performance.
It is in the disruptive discharge.
You also need a couple more diodes of the ceramic HV model to redirect energy back into the battery/capacitor.
A combination of capacitor / neon bulb will also work verry well.
In that case it runs on bemf and the voltage produced is many times higher as the pulsing voltage.
No need to use galvanic coupling, it can be done wit a simple primary coil only.
The capacitor builds up a charge ,and this charge will keep building up untill the voltage has reached a certain value and it will discharge itself thrue the neon bulb.
Mechanical switching works best.


M.

Feynman,

I totally agree that these could be used as emergency lights and that is the whole idea for me to explore this because just recently we had a power transformer blow up in the neighbourhood and everyone was without electricity for several hours (late afternoon in winter, dark and cold...). Having lights that would last for hours and hours at full brightness would be a good step towards making one feel better about power outages (if there's anything good about them). :)

I have driven my circuits up to 100KHz but in general they operate from 50-90KHz although depending on the core I use they go down to 25-35KHz as well. There's lots more experimentation needed with different core sizes and wire gauges to find the optimal configuration between maximum brightness and minimum current.

Now if only we could somehow plug in some capacitors in there and have them replace the battery during operation so that we only use the battery to start the process... :D

Quote from: -[marco]- on March 16, 2008, 04:21:54 PM

Quote from: Feynman on March 14, 2008, 05:20:17 PM
Yeah, I agree.  We don't know if it's OU .   But strange enough to warrent ... EXPERIMENTS!!!   :D  8) ;)

Hi

I have played with many of these types of devices a couple of years ago and as they are presented here they are not OU devices.
But they can be.
For this to be, you only need to put in a verry small spark gap and make sure the voltage is sufficient.
Im not talking about millimeters sparkgap but rather one hunderth of a millimeter.
Much like when you use two pencils and the tips are almost touching each other.
The miniature spark will imediatly push up circuit performance.
It is in the disruptive discharge.
You also need a couple more diodes of the ceramic HV model to redirect energy back into the battery/capacitor.
A combination of capacitor / neon bulb will also work verry well.
In that case it runs on bemf and the voltage produced is many times higher as the pulsing voltage.
No need to use galvanic coupling, it can be done wit a simple primary coil only.
The capacitor builds up a charge ,and this charge will keep building up untill the voltage has reached a certain value and it will discharge itself thrue the neon bulb.
Mechanical switching works best.


M.

@-[marco]-,

That is great! Could you post a circuit drawing of your system and some measurements, photos?
Could you also explain what you mean with "of the ceramic HV model"?

Groundloop.

@zon,

Still waiting for a drawing?

>Can you make a drawing describing where your antenna and ground connection should be in your circuit?

Groundloop.

@groundloop

Until, now  I'm still waiting email from my freind, what exactly his concept on schematic.
Last I got it only by phone.

But i try his concept on my opinion and make revision 03, look at attachment for antenna and grounding

Thanks God, until now , the battery not drain anymore (i hope, it will continue / forever)  :)

@marco

Thank for your comment about "spark" and based on it i change to revision 03, put capacitor before grounded

zon

@all

Sorry , correction on attachment before
I'm forget to put diode 1N4148 in between capacitor and ground

zon

@zon,

Thank you for the drawing.
I will try out your antenna and ground method.
Maybe I will pick up some FM radio energy with a 1 meter antenna?

@-[marco]-,

Still waiting for a circuit drawing on your "spark gap" system.

Groundloop.

Quote from: -[marco]- on March 16, 2008, 04:21:54 PM

Quote from: Feynman on March 14, 2008, 05:20:17 PM
Yeah, I agree.  We don't know if it's OU .   But strange enough to warrent ... EXPERIMENTS!!!   :D  8) ;)

Hi

I have played with many of these types of devices a couple of years ago and as they are presented here they are not OU devices.
But they can be.
For this to be, you only need to put in a verry small spark gap and make sure the voltage is sufficient.
Im not talking about millimeters sparkgap but rather one hunderth of a millimeter.
Much like when you use two pencils and the tips are almost touching each other.
The miniature spark will imediatly push up circuit performance.
It is in the disruptive discharge.
You also need a couple more diodes of the ceramic HV model to redirect energy back into the battery/capacitor.
A combination of capacitor / neon bulb will also work verry well.
In that case it runs on bemf and the voltage produced is many times higher as the pulsing voltage.
No need to use galvanic coupling, it can be done wit a simple primary coil only.
The capacitor builds up a charge ,and this charge will keep building up untill the voltage has reached a certain value and it will discharge itself thrue the neon bulb.
Mechanical switching works best.


M.

@ marco   awsome!!

:) ;) ;D

ist

I think the spark gap should go between the output coil and a destination capacitor.  As marco says, it will have to be measured in micrometers so I'm still trying to figure out a good way to do that.

Also , had a drive crash so I am delayed a day or two.  But I will return.   ;D

I knew I should've bought a microscope long time ago...now that this micro-spark gap is needed it would've come handy. Though I think we need a metallurgical microscope instead of biological one (which I was looking to buy).

What kind of material should the spark gap be made from and should it be encased in an evacuated capsule?

Feynman, sorry to hear about the drive crash, I hope you didn't lose any important data...

@all

My friend told me that he will go to my place next month.

I try a lot of type of circuit "led" but still not get "energy".
Some time the battery not drain for while and go down again.

zon

Thanks amigo ; it's fine data was backed up .  :)

Just need to reinstall things. 

Quote from: amigo on March 18, 2008, 08:16:46 PM
I knew I should've bought a microscope long time ago...now that this micro-spark gap is needed it would've come handy. Though I think we need a metallurgical microscope instead of biological one (which I was looking to buy).

What kind of material should the spark gap be made from and should it be encased in an evacuated capsule?

Feynman, sorry to hear about the drive crash, I hope you didn't lose any important data...

Hi,

I usually use the fillings of pencils.
You can buy them in diffrent diameter and i believe they are graphite.
You can also use normal pencils but the refill pencil fillings work best.

As i remember the miniature spark gap is located across (neon) or behind (led's) the load and it is connected to a long arial.
You also need to switch in some diodes to prevent the current from flowing back, splitting the positive.
When you use a cap de discharge rate goes down but the voltage goes up.
You can charge the cap via the A-plug or just in a closed loop.
I do not know what is so special about the Stiffler circuit and why it is called like this because these things are known for 100's of years.
The more fine turns you use ,the better the result.
This is because the inductor acts as accellerator and raises the voltage,
You can see dramatic improvement when there is a spark in the circuit.
The lights will become brilliant and i always notice they are lighting up diffrently as in more beauty.

M.

Marco's idea is great.

I just tested the resistence of No. 2   0.7mm graphite from a mechanical pencil, and the resistance is much less than 10 Ohms per cm.  Probably closer to 1 Ohm per cm or less, but my test equipment doesn't go that low.   I effectively see zero resistance, so mechanical pencil graphite is like wire more or less.


Btw, hard drive is back up.  More to come soon on weekend experiments.  I will post the 555 timer program tonite.

Thanks for the tips marco, hopefully we'll be able to put them to use.

The long aerial might be a problem for me though, living on the top floor of an apartment building I am not sure my landlord will appreciate me stringing wire across the building. It even might not be safe during thunderstorms...hehe I can already see the headlines "Apartment building burned down - wannabe mad scientist apprehended." :D

I tried using the AM radio coil from the Stiffler experiments and the circuit works with it as well, oscillating at 500KHz+. Actually I had it going at 2.1MHz or something like that, but that could've been a harmonic as well. LEDs did not light up at 2.1MHz though and looking at the 500KHz they still do not look as bright as with my other circuit where I use the tiny ferrite bead and a N-FET. Definitely something to do with N-FET boosting the output... :)

My latest trial circuit revision 05, quite bright, quite longer lit :)

It's different result between circuit with antenna-ground to earth and without antenna-grounded.
Circuit with antenna-ground to earth, battery drain slowest than circuit without antenna-ground to earth.
For the first four hours after attaching antenna-ground to earth, infact the battery increase voltage in milivolt, after that batttery drain very slowly
Anybody,  have the reason for this phenomenon ?

zon

@zon,

When you load a battery it will increase in voltage because the internal resistance is
going down a bit. Then the voltage will start to fall again. Do a test, connect a 10 Watt
light bulb to a 12 volt battery. Measure the voltage and see for yourself. First the voltage
climbs because of the load is generating a small heat inside the battery thus lowering
the internal resistance. After a while the charge is going down and the voltage drops.

Nice circuit by the way!  :D

Groundloop.

heat lowering resistance?

Quote from: Koen1 on March 26, 2008, 05:15:12 PM
heat lowering resistance?

@Koen1,

If you have a better explaination, please share.  :D

Groundloop.

No, but I was just wondering what mechanism is at work there
if it is really the case that the temporary increase in temperature
decreases the resistance,
because in general temperature increase leads to increased resistance.
I know that this temperature dependant behaviour can be very different
in electrolytes, but I have no specific info about that mechanism nor
about a negative temperature coefficient for resistance of the electrolytes
used in rechargeable batteries.
Do you?

@Koen1,

Only by observation. I have noticed that batteries goes up in voltage when loaded.
Then after some time the voltage drops again. I have seen this numerous times.
This effect has fooled many free energy researchers to believe there is o/u at play.

Think about it, a lead acid battery has a much higher charge output when warm than cold.

Groundloop.

If I may comment on the developments, I thought that the purpose of this thread is to focus on *practical* applications?
I know it's fun connecting an aerial and the ground and collecting whatever emissions are in the air, but that is totally impractical in most real world applications. You are definitely not going to use a flashlight, or any light emission device, that needs a 2m aerial and another wire to the ground, at all times.

@ Amigo:

No, but you could recharge such devices in this manner, as we are doing with the earth batteries.  you can charge batteries and caps....for free.


Bill

@amigo

I'm agree, that's funny using that circuit flash flight purpose. I'm only to try the my friend's concept.
He will arrive at my place next 2 week. I will post what i can get it from him.

zon

I think this is a decent platform for experimenting.  Zon is always making new circuits so I think his results are interesting.

Remember, marco suggested we add a sub-milimeter spark gap using mechanical pencil graphite.  I want to build one of these, but need to get access to a microscope.

Hey the long arial is not that important.
The spark gap is.
It just needs some wire it does not have to be miles.
A regular crock clip wire works fine.

M.

Quote from: Groundloop on March 26, 2008, 07:56:35 PM
@Koen1,

Only by observation. I have noticed that batteries goes up in voltage when loaded.
Then after some time the voltage drops again. I have seen this numerous times.
This effect has fooled many free energy researchers to believe there is o/u at play.

Think about it, a lead acid battery has a much higher charge output when warm than cold.

Groundloop.

Hi it is intresting you mention this.
What about boiling the acid and keep it under reflux so it condenses back into the battery..
We know the electrons move faster when hot so this would be Direct Heat into Electricity conversion...
Would that improve the battery's behaviour in a sense it does not go dead??


M.

@-[marco]-,

I think boiling acid will be dangerous!
This is NOT something one should attempt to do in a home lab.

Groundloop.

Well, that is your personal opinion.

There are a lot of things that are labeld "Dangerous"
M.

Then how about a semi-pro opinion :)

I can really say I know something about the subject because my mother is a chemistry professor and so most of the earlier days of my life I have spent around chemicals and been taught about them...

Some things should simply not be performed in your home. Without adequate environment if anything goes wrong you could mess yourself up pretty badly very fast, or succumb to injuries even. One can never be too careful, especially if you are physically present around corrosive chemicals and/or do not have proper haz-mat training/knowledge. Events can occur in a blink of an eye and without drilled training most people will do stupid things trying to remedy already a bad situation.

Amigo:

Always good advice.  Some may listen, some may not, but at least you tried and I think that is honorable.

Bill

Looks a total waste of time to me. The circuit is just a simple oscillator with the L being the core and C is the stray capacitance of the circuit which means it will oscillate at many megs. The  transformer coupling has been done in RF stages for 100 years nothing fancy going on here at all. What you will get is "mystery" readings as you start to increase power RF will get back into you DVM and convince you have have found extra power. If you do this with a power fet some will easily put out 5 watts of RF run on 12 volts and they will splutter up and down the band and make a lovely jammer for miles around!

If you start making spark gaps you will create havoc with TV's and radio and you wont be popular with your neighbors.

If you want to light up the LED with no battery make a simple tuned circuit. Ground one end and stick an aerial wire on about 150ft long thin copper wire then tune the output into an LED. It will light up from strong AM radio stations for FREE :) 

But this is all kids stuff i did all this when i was about 7.

BTW the battery starting low and increasing is well documented due to partial oxidation of the cell plates on standing. As you start to draw current this oxi layer burns off increasing plate area and the voltage comes up a tad then drops later as the battery is used. Lithium batteries suffer badly from this effect.

@Bolt,

I started to play with electronic at the age of 9. Now, at 50 I'm still learning new things.  ;D
Many of the members on this forum plays with these circuits as a hobby. I think most of
them also think this is fun. Personally, I think that ANY hobby is NOT a waste of time.

QuoteBTW the battery starting low and increasing is well documented due to partial oxidation of the cell plates on standing. As you start to draw current this oxi layer burns off increasing plate area and the voltage comes up a tad then drops later as the battery is used. Lithium batteries suffer badly from this effect.

Can you provide a reference to your statement?

Groundloop.

Do you want to know what happens when you boil the acid in a battery?  Well, I just happen to have first hand experience with this.  When I was a teenager, I was playing with batteries, and just happened to make the mistake of heating one up to the point where it started to boil inside.  After several minutes of hearing the acid boil, I noticed that the battery was bulging, and after a few more minutes it exploded.  Hot acid and pieces of battery flew everywhere.  The acid ate wholes in my clothes, and I received second degree burns from the heat of the acid, not to mention the additional burn caused by the acid eating at my skin.  It was not cool!!  If you want to try boiling the acid in a battery, I would highly advise against it.

Drossen

Sorry guys, I may be out of line but I just came across this thread and really haven't read it through so shouldn't really comment but.....

Are any of you out there Pink Floyd fans? I purchased their Pulse CD many years ago. What they had on the CD case was a red LED that pulsed. I am pretty sure I had to pull out the little plastic tab to get it started. This LED pulsed on at a slow rate ( ~.5 sec on - ~2 sec off) but it pulsed for over 4 years without changing the battery. I couldn't believe that it would have lasted that long!

Tim

Pink Floyd fan here...

The duration of the LED doesn't surprise me too much... depending on the type of battery a little LED can go a long time.   What's interesting about the joule thief circuit, however, is the high voltage transient occurring in a coil which is wound 1:1.  There may be a good conventional explanation, but I think the waveform and circuit operation are very interesting. Especially the 20V I was measuring on one of the coils, coming from a sub-1V battery.  This may all be conventional , but I didn't know this was possible until I built it.  I still haven't gotten around to doing the full scope traces around the circuit or creating the spark gap because of all the other stuff, but I hope to have some time soon.

@Bolt
You mean to tell me a tiny sub-mm spark gap is going to wreak havoc on my neighbors reception?  I've gotta build this!    :D

Passivation
     

Passivation is a very thin, high resistant,self-assembled layer formed on the surface of the lithium anode. It is formed as a result of a chemical reaction between the battery electrolyte and the lithium anode. Without the passivation layer, this type of lithium battery would not exist because the lithium would discharge and degrade quite rapidly. An advantage of the passivation layer is it allows the battery to have a very low self discharge rate and extremely long shelf life.
     The most obvious affect of the passivation layer is voltage delay. Voltage delay will occur when a load is placed on the cell as illustrated in the following drawing:
     
     After a load is applied to a cell, the high resistance of the passivation layer causes the cell's voltage to drop rapidily. The discharge reaction slowly removes the passivation layer thereby lowering the internal resistance of the cell. This in turn causes the cell's voltage to reach a peak value which should remain steady if other discharge conditions do not change. If the load increases after the cell's voltage stabilizes, then it may drop again until the passivation layer is fully removed.
     Once the load is removed or lowered, the passivation layer will reform, and voltage delay may be a factor when subsequent loads are applied.

Almost all batteries suffer some kind of paasivation problem some worse then others. Alkaline batteries have a very noticeable effect if they been on the shelf for months when first used they plummet and take many minutes to kick into life.  Google passivation for more info but i had to study this many years ago when developing low power RF solutions using lithium and getting circuits to run on a couple of micro amps. When the circuit is right you can flash an LED and run an RF transmitter on a single AA cell for EIGHT years.

Jack will know about this too i bet he followed a similar design path with his cart locking wheel.

@bolt,

Thank you for the explanation on passivation. Passivation causes a drop in battery voltage when the battery is loaded after a period of storage.  When the battery is loaded the passivation layer will be converted to other material and the battery is then at full capacity again.

See, I learned some new stuff today.  ;D

Thanks,
Groundloop.

@bolt,

Thank you for joining our thread and giving us your opinion. It is sad that you did not illuminate the thread with some good ideas or supportive suggestions since you portrayed yourself as an expert.

If we are to take your advice we should all just eat the gun and forget the whole thing of living/being alive. After all why the hell bother for when it's all a waste of time...right?

The age old advice I'll dispense back to you is if you have nothing good, positive or supportive to say, just keep your mouth shut.

Thanks again !

Hi all;

Regarding the spark gap.

Thought I'd mention one way I found to make an adjustable spark gap a while back.

Break the glass off of a NE2 bulb (use a piece of cloth over the glass and gentle pressure from a pair of needle nose pliers) and then adjust the anode and cathode (to as close as you can get them) and attaching the two leads to the high voltage end.

I found that using a piece of thin paper between the anode and cathode when adjusting the gap you can use the paper as a feeler gauge to get the spacing as close as possible.

The advantage I found of doing this as that the anode and cathode seem not to burn with high voltage compared to other types of metals..

Regards,
Paul

@Goat, @All,

The dielectric strength of air is approximately 3 kV/mm. Lets say we want to make a spark gap
to run our circuit (instead of a transistor). For 3 Volt spark gap the gap itself must be approx. 3um.
Three micro meter is 3mm / 1000. Do you think it is possible to make such a small spark gap with
your neon bulb method?

Thanks,
Groundloop.

@goat

Thank you for the information; that's a really good idea.

@groundloop
Nice math !

I think Goat's neon bulb is a great idea for higher voltages;  personally  I like marco's "mechanical pencil" graphite method for the lower voltages (<20V) because 1) graphite resistance is basically like 1 ohm per cm according to my experiments. . . 2) one can line up the graphite under a microscope, and then once the gap is precisely calibrated using a grid, one can easily glue the graphite to the surface using two drops of superglue (cyanoacrylate i think).

Of course, this require a microscope  ;)   but I am working on that part...  maybe more sneaking into labs late night at night.   ;D

@ Groundloop & All

I did not mean to say that the NE2 electrodes are better than the "mechanical pencil" graphite.  All that was meant by my post is an alternative method of making a spark gap.

As far as the "3 Volt spark gap" you mention, I have not seen the circuit that Marco has mentioned as the following in a previous post on this thread:

"I have played with many of these types of devices a couple of years ago and as they are presented here they are not OU devices.  But they can be."

Then he mentioned the spark gap.

Although spark gaps are quite visible at high voltages I have yet to make a continuous spark gap at 3 Volts or even 12 Volts!  Unless it's when you first hook up the last terminal of the battery to the correctly laid out circuit (meaning precise impedance) for the load to power source ratio and frequency.

Maybe I'm asking to be spoon fed by saying this but Marco if you're seeing this dis-agreement between me and Groundloop as a moot point please "Pray Tell" because I do not wish to alienate Groundloop and I in further discussions, could you please post what you meant by spark gap?  Was it used in your OU circuits at low or high voltage(s)?

With all regards for everyone,
Paul

@ Feynman

I'm wondering, could you try to find out what the resistance of the NE2 electrodes would be compare to the graphite?

If anyone else on the forum knows about this please reply.

Just curious as I'm not able to find out what the cathode and anode of the NE2 are made of and their resistance and breakdown voltage.

Regards,
Paul

Goat, good idea about the NE2, it's probably worth a try.

I was thinking about the graphite spark gap and to use the piece of paper as a separator. The only problem I'm trying to resolve is mounting the two bits of graphite and connecting them to wire. I suppose we can glue the wire to the ends of the graphite and then glue the graphite as Feynman proposes.

We could use a human hair to space out the ends, it being about 50um in diameter it's not too bad but not that close to 3um either. Still better than nothing for the time being, and could probably be done with a magnifying glass instead of a microscope. :)

Just for reference:

A human hair is .003" dia.  A piece of paper (copier type light weight) is about .002"

Bill

@goat

I appreciate your input, I'm open to all ideas.   When I asked Marco about specifics of his graphite spark gap, but he was sayings its been years and  there are different configurations for low voltage spark gaps.  You'd have to make it small enough that it exceeds the dielectric strength of air as groundloop mentioned.  I have a draft schematic I can draw up , but it's basically just a spark gap on the output stage going to the capacitor in parallel with the LED.

I think the spark gap might work during the higher voltage transients because of the waveform of these joule thief circuits. In between the transients, the voltage would not be sufficient to jump across.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg219.imageshack.us%2Fimg219%2F7654%2Ffrequencygb3.jpg&hash=bc119577ffddbbc9b21474ca7292c8ff9dfa8220)
V/div = 0.2 , T/div = 10us .. but those transient peaks are real high, anywhere from 2V - 18V depending on where in the circuit you attach the probe.  From my joule thief replication using groundloops trifilar circuit.

Also  sorry to be unclear, I dont think the resitance is not an important point at all, I just happened to mention it because I ran some tests on mechanical pencils.  The main reason I'd use graphite is I can calibrate it under a microscope to however many micrometers are necessary, and I have a whole pack of mechanical pencils sitting on my bench.  You could probably do this (calibrate spark gap) too with the NE lamp as well if it was on a fixed surface and could fit under a microscope.  The NE lamp idea is definitely worth investigation.

Again, Thanks to all for the thoughts

@ Feynman

Thanks for the feedback

I don't disagree with your last post or any previous posts but please understand that I have never achieved a spark gap on low voltage, I have managed fairly impressive spark gaps using high voltage(s) though.

If you or anyone could show me how to produce and measure such a low voltage spark gap discharge when used in zon's circuit or anyone else's circuit PLEASE show me the error in my ways.

It's driving me nuts!

I know Tesla points to high voltage and high frequencies, I just don't see how to do it with low voltage.

Please forgive my ignorance in this matter.

Regards,
Paul

Hi,

If you want to use a classic spark, you need to make sure the voltage potential is sufficient to make it over to the other electrode.
Just raise the voltage untill it flashes over, and then lower the input so it stays exactly between the point of spraking/not sparking.
Below is a NE2 bulb attached to a capacitor via two ceramic HV diodes.
The little black stick is a carbon rod for use in a pencil.
When the spark hits the other side (the diodes) of the spark gap the electrons are accellerated before they hit the metal.
This charge is effectively seperated by the diodes and stored into the capacitor.
Be aware that it WILL CHARGE UP TO A LETHAL VOLTAGE!!!
Dont touch it just because you think there isn't that much energy there.
When the capacitor builds up its charge it will get to a threshold of app. 65 volts where it ignites the NE2 neon.
And if the circuit is tuned right it will keep lit depending on the lengths of wire used in the circuit.
If you switch a wire ALWAYS re-tune the circuit.
This you can do by placing another NE2 bulb just before the gap.(one one wire or just wrap one lead around the signal wire)
This bulb will not discharge but it will only shimmer when the circuit is at it's highest potential.
If the voltage is not sufficient, you need to use mechanical spark gap switching.
I have also found an easy way to do this by using two little DC motors pulled out of cd-rom drives.
Magnetize the needles and attach one of the wires to the case of the motor.
Put the two in series and make sure the needles touch each other.
Both motors will run away, one clockwise and one anti-clockwise and there will be a nice mechanical spark in between.

M.

@ Marco

Thank you very much, I see much potential in what you have presented. 

You have posted a very nice picture of a balanced circuit from what I can decipher, just a little blurry at my end (no fault of yours) :)

I shall do my best to dwell upon it and try to duplicate as best I can.

If you don't mind me asking, when you mention "Just raise the voltage untill it flashes over" how are you achieving this, I don't quite see the whole picture, could you post your circuit as a diagram as I'm a little unclear on the carbon connection.  I am certain now from what you mention that low voltage will not make the spark gap flash over unless you raise the voltage so that seems to answer that question.

I have had instances in the past where a battery driven circuit seemed to generate OU but after nearly 24 hours output suddenly dropped in votage out of nowhere, not sure how that happens in a circuit but the ones I've been messing with don't act normal :)

Sorry I'm part ADD so I need a picture to tell me the story and then I can build from that  :P

Much appreciated, keep fighting the good fight.  Fight for FREEDOM :)

Regards,
Paul

Marco,

In the second photo, the motors appear to be wired in such a way that the HV actually passes through them, with opposite wires connected to the case of the motor and the other ones leading away. Is that correct?

You also say to magnetize the needle, do you mean the rotor shaft?

Thanks.

Something just occurred to me relating to what we are doing here, while reading a seemingly unrelated book (Secret of Life by Lakhovsky). On the page where I am now he's talking about radiations in general, being the disturbances in/of the aether traveling at the velocity of light. Though that's not what I'd like to draw attention here but to a small chart breaking down various spectra, X-ray, UV, visible, IR, etc.

Long story short, Visible Light is in 0.8-0.4um range while IR is 314-0.8um (1 um = 1/1000 mm) and so it dawned on me about the spark gaps we are trying to create with electrodes very very close to each other (order of a few 100um or less). It's not that the spark gaps don't work - they are most likely working, it's just that we can't see them because their emanations are in the IR range and just beyond our range of vision.

What do you think?

Well i always see a tiny blue like light between the electrodes.
The NE2's lite up a bit in open loop and they lite up a bit in closed loop.
But they lite up brilliant when the spark is present.

M.

@amigo

I tried replicating your version of joule thief, but I might have burned something out.  Cause I can't get it to work.  ??? :'(  I blame the damned HAARP.

Is this the correct schematic...  I hard wired the push-button closed.  Also, I am using approx 8mm toroid, h material, permeability 15000, 30awg bifilar drilled..  Also I am using the MPS2222.

(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.com%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3D4223.0%3Battach%3D20050%3Bimage&hash=077728f0294a14c69be443c7d3ebc6647d9f0b6a)

@Feynman,

Something with this circuit is not right. When you press the button then you are grounding the battery through the coil. I have made a drawing that is a little better. The 1K resistor is moved to the ground side of the trigger coil. Now when you press the start button, then you have the 1K to ground AND the coil resistance and inductance. This will not short circuit your battery and the circuit will start to run. Also note that the trigger coil and the power coil must be connected 180 degrees to each other. See the small black dots on the coils.

[EDIT] After the circuit has started to run you release the start button. No need to hardwire.

Hope this helps.

Groundloop.

Thanks groundloop

You are right.   I went and took the battery and hooked it back up to the original replication and its almost out of charge.  So I think the circuit is shorted out.   I'll try your recommendations, it was probably a transcription error in drawing the circuit. 

EDIT:  I tried this revised version and no go, so I'm going to do data collection on the trifilar version for now.

Here is me replication of amigo's circuit.   We will fix this soon! 

(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg134.imageshack.us%2Fimg134%2F469%2Famigo1vy3.jpg&hash=f12cbb6246adad5c5c68ff260c13f361f1c1edb3)
C'mon... light, little one!!!

(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg134.imageshack.us%2Fimg134%2F6851%2Famigo2aa8.jpg&hash=7d5755bc595158bbe79e6155172c09ed634161eb)


And here is my replication of groundloop's circuit
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg100.imageshack.us%2Fimg100%2F5909%2Fgroundloop1mu9.jpg&hash=010c8ac54d6cddebe030a71b254854d9b521e4f4)



I will post scope traces as soon as I can locate an ample supply of beer.  Since it's after midnight, this might require a trip to local bar.    
EDIT:  I just found some Guinness.   :D

For the spark gap , I am trying to reach a contact at a university lab which has microscope. Suffice to say we can thank JetBlue and the generous budget of Duke University.  ;D

As promised, here are those scope traces from groundloops circuit, which is pictured above.


(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg149.imageshack.us%2Fimg149%2F7383%2Fjoulegroundloopskr0.jpg&hash=74af0e9547349b7ab3d8ec1c5c85a41d2bdead72)

Circuit frequency is approx. 20khz.  And now for the energy measurements... which were surprising...

Battery Voltage:
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg134.imageshack.us%2Fimg134%2F9860%2Fjoulegroundloops2hw6.jpg&hash=8545137e4a7ed6bdf954d59f5404606947b729ba)

Drain at LED (milliamps):
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg134.imageshack.us%2Fimg134%2F7171%2Fjoulegroundloops3mx2.jpg&hash=6bd51f423f69122d2cec7817345d935857b9bb8a)

I didn't believe this number so I checked the analog meter
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg86.imageshack.us%2Fimg86%2F4331%2Fjoulegroundloops4bo9.jpg&hash=e9414bcda15d3f1599c23a03a07b3007bedadaab)

Well the gear says it's official.  We are using about half a volt and under half a milliamp and we are lighting a blue LED.  Kinda cool  huh

Did anybody yettry toimplement a sparkgap from dissimular
metals like copper and graphite into this circuit to
have a real recharging effect of the battery ?
At these low voltages you have to use probably mikrometer distances.
Or use a higher turn additional winding where you have High Voltage from the transformer
and feed these sparking pulses back to the battery.

It will be then based on the Newman effect and is a direct conversion of graphite ( carbon)
into electricity.
Regards, Stefan.

Ich denke, dass niemand die Funkenl?cke noch gemacht hat. Ich werde versuchen, Ein in den n?chsten wenigen Wochen zu machen. Ich denke, dass wir die Entfernung kalkuliert haben, muss 4/1000 cm sein. Nachdem ich Zugriff auf ein Universit?tlabor ich erhalte, werde dies versuchen.

Vielen Dank f?r Ihre Ideen.  :D

PS Warum verschiedene Metalle f?r die Funkenl?cke?

QuoteI think that no one yet made the spark gap.  I will try to make one in the next few weeks.  I think that we calculated the distance must be 4/1000 cm.  After I receive access to a university laboratory I will try this.

Thank you very much for your ideas. 

PS Why different metals for the spark gap?

Quote from: amigo on March 29, 2008, 11:16:46 AM
Marco,

In the second photo, the motors appear to be wired in such a way that the HV actually passes through them, with opposite wires connected to the case of the motor and the other ones leading away. Is that correct?

You also say to magnetize the needle, do you mean the rotor shaft?

Thanks.

Hi Amigo

The mechanical spark gap as shown with the DC motors is not for use in a HV setup.
They can be used in HV setup but then you need to spin them with a battery or something externally.
The motors are wired in series and though their cases in such a manner that when the rotors touch each other, the motors start to spin.
By magnetizing the tips that are touching each other you can keep it running fine but you can also mount the motors with tape or whatever.

You can raise the voltage by using more numbers of turns and redirecting collapse via diodes.
This way you can easy put in like 9Volt and get 200Volt Out as a spike.
M.

@Feynman,

Hmm, as far as I can tell that circuit worked, but it is an older version and I might have made a mistake when I was converting from the proto-board setup to a circuit schematics. I apologize if this caused you inconvenience and trouble getting it working.
You are right that the driver leads need to be reversed in order for the setup to work. Button is used to kick the circuit in because it would not self-oscillate on its own upon power for me, but then again the setup was not reversed to begin with...

The circuit works, I will put a photo into the next post...

@Marco,

Thanks for the details, so basically we can use the motors as spark gap for our present setup since our voltages for LEDs are no-where near HV?

Hi Amigo

Well i guess so....
The mechanical spark between the two rotating needles of the motors produces a diffrent effect then the micro HV spark gap.
The resistance between the two rotating needles is constantly changing in a noisy fashion.
It's like a bad connection that never comes to a good pathway.
It has a certain smell when it is going and so does the micro spark gap but this is more likely ionization and ozone production.

Basicly i use 3 methodes to get to intresting results.
These are:

1. mechanical - moving parts in the circuit.
2. spark gap   - involves voltage to pass the threshold.
3. bemf          - pulse a coil with a low voltage signal and collect a high voltage bemf spike.

Methode one is grosly inefficient as you need power to drive the motors and it's mechanical so the parameters are changing all the time, it's not stable.
Methode two is hard to tune and some of the energy is lost in the form of heat, it also reacts to the environment like humidity and dust.
Methode three is best because there are no moving parts but it is sensitive for leaking, if there is some capacitive coupling the energy will be gone in a nanosec and even holding a wire destroys the effect.
In all three methodes the goal is to create a point of charge diffrence between a point in the the setup and a point in the environment.
This is like creating a sink so the energy starts to flow in.
Much like punching a hole into a baloon so the air comes out.
This charge diffrence is needed because we and everything around us is charged to the same potential.
We are sitting on only one plate of the gigantic capacitor.
So we can:

1. Take a wire up to the end of the ionosphere and connect it to the other plate (not pratical and quite dangerous)
2. Establish resonance (also not practical as we look into the sizes of the wavelengths)
3. Create a pressure diffrence.

Now pressure diffrences are evreywhere, and when they get too big it just flashes over between the plates in the form of lightning.
The pressure zone is electric (ambient potential), but as soon as it discharges by lightning, the energy is radiated away in magnetic form.(Schumann-Resonance).

M.

Ok here are the photos, I've just put the circuit together quickly and it works.

(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg296.imageshack.us%2Fimg296%2F7146%2Famigojoulethief2su1.jpg&hash=4d761e45645af282971ab5bd87cc1b66de375906)

(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg296.imageshack.us%2Fimg296%2F5868%2Famigojoulethief3fj3.jpg&hash=65b9b9218aa7ea940d7bb0169d262ef0987ead24)

The circuit will work either with reversed or not-reversed driver leads, but in my configuration (straight connection) it appears to use ~600uA less (through battery) than with the reversed connection. It depends what frequency it clocks in I guess so it probably means nothing and we can ignore it...

The LED is extremely bright and it's daytime here - you simply cannot look at the LED directly above or you'll get burn image in your eyes after a few seconds.

Hi,

I build the circuit following Groundloop's schematic (trifilar) and after testing it with various npn transistors, this is what I found out.

This circuit is driving 9 5mm white LEDs. No matter how many LEDs I put in (I only have 9), the amp remains the same. I would have thought that the more LEDs I hook it up, the dimmer it will be. It doesn't. Is this normal?

- 2N3904, lowest current comsumption at 30mA. LEDs. Dimmest but still bright enough to see "white" and not green tint when it's not enough power.
- 2222A, higher comsumption at 65mA (tried another 2222A, it goes up to 75mA)
- BC548, 2nd lowest at around 60mA
- BC337, highest at 80mA

Frequency as suspected, changes with various transistors.lower frequency, lower current consumption.

Right now, I'm putting the circuit (2N3904) to on test-run for time until battery runs flat (it's a NmH 1V2 batt). So far, it's running for 4 hours. Too early to tell anything.

Cheers, cp

Marco,

Thank you for the break-out of the methods, I just wonder why some people still prefer spark gap over pulsing the coil...there's lots of talk about hydrogen spark gaps, etc...

Also, if we were to encase the micro-gap into a glass ampule and (partially) evacuate the air wouldn't that prevent atmospherics from interfering with it?

@sanmankl

You really need to measure the hFE of the transistors you use because it makes a difference (bigger the better). I've noticed 2N2222 works better than 2N3904 though your current consumption is way too high, even 30mA is more than a standard Joule Thief circuit and not even my modified version which runs at about 12-13mA.

Actually in my latest incarnation of the circuit, there's no need for 1K resistor because I am using a 2N7000 N-FET which seems to be giving much better amplification than standard NPNs. Circuit uses standard 20 turns of bi-filar 30-34 AWG on a miniature ferrite bead/toroid core. Also, the current consumption has fallen down below 10mA (around 8-9mA depending on the oscillating frequency).

I believe our goal here is to get the LEDs to be the brightest and connect as many as possible, with the lowest current consumption thus prolonging the battery life.

Quote from: amigo on March 30, 2008, 11:59:56 AM
Marco,

Thank you for the break-out of the methods, I just wonder why some people still prefer spark gap over pulsing the coil...there's lots of talk about hydrogen spark gaps, etc...

Also, if we were to encase the micro-gap into a glass ampule and (partially) evacuate the air wouldn't that prevent atmospherics from interfering with it?

Well i have also used NE2 bulbs as THE spark gap.
I just discharged a full capacitor into the bulb.
This creates a violent blue flash rather then an orange glow, but the bulb didn't like it...it's now in the damaged components collection.
Anyway at high voltage it's a dielectric thing, you can pick up a NE2 bulb and it will even glow brighter as the energy flows from your finger thrue the glass and into the bulb, or the other way around.
Much like those plasma globes with all the sparks inside.
Those are glass too.
But, i think indeed it is best to use open air spark gapping as i also think it needs to be in contact with the environment.
However if we go into the Radiant energy area, it will just penetrate about anything.

M.

Quote from: sanmankl on March 30, 2008, 11:59:52 AM
Hi,

This circuit is driving 9 5mm white LEDs. No matter how many LEDs I put in (I only have 9), the amp remains the same. I would have thought that the more LEDs I hook it up, the dimmer it will be. It doesn't. Is this normal?

Hi

Do you think that is normal? i think it's magic.
I have seen the same thing many times....one time my whole room was filled with UV solar tubes all in series and it did not matter how much i connected they all lite up..

It looks as if the power feed only acts as a catalyst to establish the connection.
My next step is to focus all that light onto a little solar cell to see what it put's out, as you know solar cells are only about 15% efficient.

M.

Quote from: -[marco]- on March 30, 2008, 01:16:09 PM

Hi

Do you think that is normal? i think it's magic.
I have seen the same thing many times....one time my whole room was filled with UV solar tubes all in series and it did not matter how much i connected they all lite up..

It looks as if the power feed only acts as a catalyst to establish the connection.
My next step is to focus all that light onto a little solar cell to see what it put's out, as you know solar cells are only about 15% efficient.

M.

This is quite a coincidence since I was trying to get the following post through, but it was giving me a hard time...

QuoteThis might sound funny but maybe you could try and hang a small sollar cell, like those found in calculators,above the leds (works probably best with white leds). If this led is bright for a very longer time than it should be then maybe just maybe you can extract an intresting sized amperage from the solar cell.

Good to hear someone is actually going to give it a go.

Quote from: sanmankl on March 30, 2008, 11:59:52 AM
Hi,

I build the circuit following Groundloop's schematic (trifilar) and after testing it with various npn transistors, this is what I found out.

This circuit is driving 9 5mm white LEDs. No matter how many LEDs I put in (I only have 9), the amp remains the same. I would have thought that the more LEDs I hook it up, the dimmer it will be. It doesn't. Is this normal?

- 2N3904, lowest current comsumption at 30mA. LEDs. Dimmest but still bright enough to see "white" and not green tint when it's not enough power.
- 2222A, higher comsumption at 65mA (tried another 2222A, it goes up to 75mA)
- BC548, 2nd lowest at around 60mA
- BC337, highest at 80mA

Frequency as suspected, changes with various transistors.lower frequency, lower current consumption.

Right now, I'm putting the circuit (2N3904) to on test-run for time until battery runs flat (it's a NmH 1V2 batt). So far, it's running for 4 hours. Too early to tell anything.

Cheers, cp

@sanmankl,

No, that is NOT normal. Can you be more specific? When you say current did not go up did you mean the input current from the battery to the circuit? Also can you give some values to your measurements?
Measure the input current in mA and then add some more LEDs to the output. Did all your LEDs light at the same level? Etc.

Groundloop.

@amigo

Okay I will double check my circuit.  Thank you for going back and reconstructing it and posting the photos.


@sanmankl

I think normally adding more LEDs should increase current consumption. Adding more LEDs without increasing current consumption might happen, if the aggregate brightness reduces by an exactly proportional amount.   This is just a thought though.  The results you were getting are interesting, I look forward to hearing more about your results.

A spark gap from 2 dissimular metals like graphite and copper
produces a galvanic cell when a spark ( plasma) jumps.
The spark acts like the electrolyte in a normal battery.

This way you have a "galvanic battery" in series with your circuit and
can draw "free" electrons from it, which come into your circuit and will
recharge your battery.
You are probably using up the graphite and the other metal due to
oxidation and corrosion, but this is the source of free electrons which will
charge up your batteries.
Quite simple, if you have understood it.
The same effect is true in all the Newman machines, that used big sparking
commutators from copper and graphite brushes..

This way also a direct conversion of graphite can be done to electricity.

Regards, Stefan.

Hi Stefan,

I'm going to try and build a simple micro-gap using two pencil graphite rods, as Marco outlined, spaced by a "hair". No microscope here so it'll have to do for now, but hopefully something actually happens when it's plugged in... :)

Okay, if just 2 pencils do not work,
then try pencil onto copper.
Or pencil onto lead solder.

Here's my attempt at creating a miniature spark gap using two graphite pencil rods. I used a hair (thankfully I still have some left on my head :) ) as a spacer between the electrodes, and wrapped tinned 34 AWG wire around the other ends, then hot glued them to a small piece of plexiglass.

So now what do I do with it because from what Marco said we should either pulse the coil or use the spark gap but not both?

(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg339.imageshack.us%2Fimg339%2F5813%2Famigomicrosparkgap1ff4.jpg&hash=30d5d2beb1443ae18663e538eded85ebc28acd68)

Quote from: Feynman on March 30, 2008, 03:42:14 PM
@amigo

Okay I will double check my circuit.  Thank you for going back and reconstructing it and posting the photos.


@sanmankl

I think normally adding more LEDs should increase current consumption. Adding more LEDs without increasing current consumption might happen, if the aggregate brightness reduces by an exactly proportional amount.   This is just a thought though.  The results you were getting are interesting, I look forward to hearing more about your results.

@Groundloop/Feynman

Correct. The input current from the battery to the circuit remains constant i.e. 35 30mA with 1,2,3.... or 9 LEDs. LEDs all at same level brightness. I would have thought that the more LEDs you have, the higher current it consumes? Strange.


To add. The starting voltage is 1.229V and after 30+ hours, it's at 1.132V.

Cheers, cp

You can imediatly tell when the spark gap is working because only then the light will be brilliant and it will have this "warm" special glow.
If it is not working the light only glows soft in closed and in open loop.

M.

Hi Marco,

How should I wire this micro spark-gap, could you provide a sample schematic that we can base our future work on?

Thanks.

Any of you thinking to put a magnet in the circuit to increase the bright of the LED?

I don't think magnets add anything to the circuit.
I do know Tesla using magnets to blow out the spark as fast as possible.

The spark gap was always across the NE2 bulb and as soon as it starts sparking, the light production doubles or tripels depending on the length of the spark.
I was always wondering if this was the radiant energy component i was looking at.

M.

Quote from: -[marco]- on March 06, 2008, 01:58:09 AM
why is this in the tpu thread?

Tesla or Special-Coil Magnet Setups or Half-baked ideas, not related to SM's work, how many spark gaps in a TPU, the TPU lit multiple 100w lightbulbs not LEDs... how is lighting leds on the cheap going to get people off grid?

If we are going to resort to solar panels we all might as well throw out the circuit move to Spain and connect the solar panel directly to the led  ;) (or a wind turbine in less sunny climates) And we can store the excess energy in batteries for when there is no wind or light...

A

Originally it's in the TPU section because Zon wound the circuit on a toroid.  It's fine with me if Stefan wants to move the thread. 

But in broader terms, I think its clear this is all connected...  It's not just lighting LEDs, it's about doing experiments to understand nature.  For instance, Dr. Stiffler started with lighting LEDs and now he is doing one wire transmission of power to off-the-shelf motors. One must advance forward in iterations. ;)

Feynman

Quote from: -[marco]- on April 01, 2008, 10:12:06 AM
The spark gap was always across the NE2 bulb and as soon as it starts sparking, the light production doubles or tripels depending on the length of the spark.
I was always wondering if this was the radiant energy component i was looking at.

M.

Hi Marco,

When you say across the NE2, which circuit are you referring to?

Thanks.

Amigo,
looks good your sparkgap.
Can you still adjust the distance of the 2 rods ?
Looks still a bit far away for lower voltages...

Anyway, just wind an additional coil with more turns onto the torroid
and use this to pulse the High Voltage pulse during
BackEMF back via the sparkgap into the battery.

So the additional coil is in series with the sparkgap.

So when the high voltage is about + 500 Volts from
this coil, the spark jumps and connects the +500 Volts to
the + 9 Volts side of the battery and the other end of the coil
is directly connected to the minus side of the 9 Volts battery.
This way you pulse in this example + 500 Volts pulses
onto the + 9 Volts side of the battery and charge it up.

Hope this helps.

Hi Stefan,

I think I'm getting the picture, though don't you need to rectify the output of the coil with at least a diode on one end of the coil (before the spark gap perhaps)?

Regarding my micro spark-gap, I can't bring the electrodes any closer, they are glued to the plexiglass, and I don't have a microscope to see if they would be touching...

Thanks.

No,
no diode needed.
Just measure first the voltage from this additional coil
on the scope and see, which amplitude is higher,
the positive or the negative and then use the higher amplitude
for the positive side.
So in other words, just find the right polarity to pulse it through
the sparkgap onto the battery.

On my SSG I have a separate tri-filar power coil wound alongside the bi-filer trigger-power and there I only get ~200V spikes which appears not sufficient for this spark-gap I made because nothing happens.

I suppose the electrodes needs to be even closer for these low voltages, or I'm not doing something right...

Yes, 200 Volts is a bit low.
You need at least I would say 500 Volts or you need to cut
the rods into needle sharp like tips !
If you make them needle shaped at the end, there
the electric fields are much more dense and thus
the spark will jump much easier !

I was able to squeeze 400V out with a fresh battery and get the micro spark-gap to work, sort of.

I followed Stefan's advice and sharpened the ends to a needle point and when plugged into the circuit had to push one end of the electrodes to create a momentary contact and then it would spark. Suffice to say it does not smell nice. :)

Turns out the electrodes in the micro spark-gap have to be *really* close, much closer than I thought. Also, because my wire was wrapped around the electrodes and then electrodes glued to the plexiglass with hot glue gun, it started sparking where my wire was wrapped around on one electrode. As a consequence, it was getting hotter around that area and the glue started to melt. Talk about a chain reaction, hehe.

I can see the potential in the spark gap, but we need voltages in excess of 1000V to be able to use a spark gap of nominal size and not something super miniature.

This also makes me wonder about something else, a multi-filar circuit where one coil is a start-up driver, using conventional pulse electronics to kick start the self oscillations. Post start-up set of driver coils wired via a spark gap to a large high voltage capacitor(s) to continue the process. Last set of coils would be power coils used for whatever output is deemed necessary.

Of course that post start-up driver set of coils would need to produce 1kV and above, and be tuned properly with the right capacitor(s) and the spark gap so that the oscillations continue and do not stop. Definitely out of my reach of experimentation, for the time being anyway.

Hi

I was usually using a car ignition coil but they consume a lot of power and these type of coils can make big sparks.
So i was looking for a methode to produce high voltage with not too much input and i found some old backlight inverters used in laptops.
These you can just pulse with a signal generator to get high voltage out.
The primary is wound as two coils so it's also possible to use one for the drive and the other for the trigger in a blocking oscillator setup.
Then you can adjust the frequency just by bringing a magnet close to the core.
Another way is to pulse a coil which has many turns of fine wire and connect the signal generator in a way that only the pulse can go into the coil ,but not out of it into the signal generator.
Then you use two other diodes connected in reverse so that they only let the pulse out of the coil to collect the high voltage spike which is caused right after the Bemf due to extremly rapid collapsing of the field.
Basicly the circuits i have tested have had 5 elements.
1.a signal source.
2.a step up item.
3.wires of equal lengths and a means to guide the flow in and out of the coils and sometimes capacitors too.
4.the spark gap.
5.offcource is the output element, which mostly was NE2 bulbs but other things were used too.

M.

Hi Marco,

That's pretty interesting about backlight inverters in laptops, I'll look some up if I can find cheap.

Something else came to mind, I am not sure if you have seen that video with Eric Dollard called Transverse and Longitudinal Electric Waves?
To make the story short, in it Eric says that using the analog networks they have devised (basically combinations of chokes and capacitors) they were able to achieve high voltages and behaviour similar to Tesla coil's but without the big coils and spark gaps. They have used a generic signal generator passed through an audio amplifier to boos the signal up into those analog networks.

Do you have any knowledge of that, how it would be done in our present times (using more available solid state components)?

Thanks.

Hi,

Here is my latest circuit design, revision no 07.
Combining with Time Energy Pump (i hope it's right or relevant). Honoured Jean Louis Naudin
3rd coil  act as feedback coil too.

Wow, and now i got more longest than before. Battery drain very slowly. Only 0.003 Volt every 30 minutes !!!

Anyone could help me to see on oscilloscope at point transistor collector lead.

My friend will arrive at my place on 8th April 2008, I hope he will tell me what i should do.


zon

Hi zon,

What frequency is your toroid rated for because there are many different kinds and they are colour coded for specific frequency ranges/responses?

Thanks.

@amigo

I don't know the frequency , I've got.
My target as my friend's concept between 30 Khz to 350 Khz
I wound 1200 mm coil on that toroid size.

zon

Quote from: zon on April 02, 2008, 10:24:59 PM
Hi,

Here is my latest circuit design, revision no 07.
Combining with Time Energy Pump (i hope it's right or relevant). Honoured Jean Louis Naudin
3rd coil  act as feedback coil too.

Wow, and now i got more longest than before. Battery drain very slowly. Only 0.003 Volt every 30 minutes !!!

Anyone could help me to see on oscilloscope at point transistor collector lead.

My friend will arrive at my place on 8th April 2008, I hope he will tell me what i should do.


zon

@zon,

I've tried your modification and my result is the same/similar to my earlier circuit (groundloop design).

2N2222A transistor, 60~65mA drainage. I somehow cannot get the circuit to >30mA like others do. The funny thing is that the drainage is the same with 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 and 9 LEDs. Still at 65mA. In fact, the current drops slight from 1 to 2 LEDs.

Strange.

cp

LATEST

Now voltage dropped to V556 and current at 20mA. Removed all and leave only 1 LED. It is still bright.

Quote from: amigo on April 02, 2008, 07:57:12 PM
Hi Marco,

That's pretty interesting about backlight inverters in laptops, I'll look some up if I can find cheap.

Something else came to mind, I am not sure if you have seen that video with Eric Dollard called Transverse and Longitudinal Electric Waves?
To make the story short, in it Eric says that using the analog networks they have devised (basically combinations of chokes and capacitors) they were able to achieve high voltages and behaviour similar to Tesla coil's but without the big coils and spark gaps. They have used a generic signal generator passed through an audio amplifier to boos the signal up into those analog networks.

Do you have any knowledge of that, how it would be done in our present times (using more available solid state components)?

Thanks.

Hi

Yes i know what you are talking about.
Dave (CTG-Labs) has also replicated that specific setup.
Eric Dollard was good at replicating Tesla's findings.
There are several things most people seem to miss when whe look at things like the Avramenko's plug.
One for example is, when it is used to charge up a capacitor, the effective adding to the charge in the cap decreases when the voltage the cap is charged to rises.
The reason for this is simple, The charge in the cap "pushes" against the charge comming from the plug.
If the cap is empty it will store much of the energy comming from the plug, but when the cap is charged to let's say 100 volts, the cap pushes 100 volts against the plug...
So let's say the plug sends 200 volts to the cap, the effective voltage will be only 200 minus the 100 that already is in the cap = 100 in stead of 200.
This means the cap charges rather fast at first but when it becomes charged, only the voltage from the plug that is above the voltage of the cap will add to the charge.
So in effect, the voltage the plug has to overcome the charge of the cap to add to the charge, the 100 volts, is lost in the process.
If we could start with an totally empty capacitor all the time, we would see diffrent things.
Therefore it is important that we get rid of the charge that is in the cap, fighting agains the energy comming from the plug.
That is one of the things some people miss and i do not want to make it too difficult to understand.
Another thing is that Diodes are leaky, they never cut off the flow totally.
You could look at them as if their resistance changes but not between a zero ohm and infinty.
Vacuum diodes, however do block the flow in one direction.
There is a great diffrence between them.
you can have something that is totally closed or you can have something that is almost closed.
In the case of the almost closed situation there can be a back flow of energy due to charge diffrences, and even in opposide directions.
An intresting thing to look at is the "Avalanche breakdown" where the electrons are ripped off.
It has been claimed that when this happens, the ripped off electrons are replaced by electrons out of the environment, so in effect they attract energy from the local environment.
I could write a book about all of this but there are many,many good books already that deal with these kind of things.

M.

Quote from: amigo on April 01, 2008, 10:49:50 PM
I was able to squeeze 400V out with a fresh battery and get the micro spark-gap to work, sort of.

I followed Stefan's advice and sharpened the ends to a needle point and when plugged into the circuit had to push one end of the electrodes to create a momentary contact and then it would spark. Suffice to say it does not smell nice. :)

Turns out the electrodes in the micro spark-gap have to be *really* close, much closer than I thought. Also, because my wire was wrapped around the electrodes and then electrodes glued to the plexiglass with hot glue gun, it started sparking where my wire was wrapped around on one electrode. As a consequence, it was getting hotter around that area and the glue started to melt. Talk about a chain reaction, hehe.

I can see the potential in the spark gap, but we need voltages in excess of 1000V to be able to use a spark gap of nominal size and not something super miniature.

This also makes me wonder about something else, a multi-filar circuit where one coil is a start-up driver, using conventional pulse electronics to kick start the self oscillations. Post start-up set of driver coils wired via a spark gap to a large high voltage capacitor(s) to continue the process. Last set of coils would be power coils used for whatever output is deemed necessary.

Of course that post start-up driver set of coils would need to produce 1kV and above, and be tuned properly with the right capacitor(s) and the spark gap so that the oscillations continue and do not stop. Definitely out of my reach of experimentation, for the time being anyway.

Hi Amigo,
you see, how much power this sparkgap puts out that the glue already got hot with this milliWatts input !
Just try to wind a few more turns of small size diameter wire onto your core and
thus you will get higher voltages.
Also try to see the difference of graphite versus copper in the sparkgap.
or graphite versus solder lead.

Regards, Stefan.

Quote from: sanmankl on April 03, 2008, 06:29:44 AM

2N2222A transistor, 60~65mA drainage. I somehow cannot get the circuit to >30mA like others do.

Hi Sanmankl,

I have included a trimmer potmeter in Zon schematics so that you could try to reduce the 60-65mA current consumption you have. The 470nF capacitor in parallel to this trimmer potmeter is to prevent the reducing effect of the potmeter in AC drive to the transistor base, so that only the DC base current can change when you turn the potmeter.
The 1000uF electrolytic capacitor I drew in parallel with the battery is not obligatory of course, it may help lower the AC inner impedance of the battery.

Gyula

Quote from: -[marco]- on April 03, 2008, 08:57:36 AM
Hi

Yes i know what you are talking about.
Dave (CTG-Labs) has also replicated that specific setup.
Eric Dollard was good at replicating Tesla's findings.
There are several things most people seem to miss when whe look at things like the Avramenko's plug.
One for example is, when it is used to charge up a capacitor, the effective adding to the charge in the cap decreases when the voltage the cap is charged to rises.
The reason for this is simple, The charge in the cap "pushes" against the charge comming from the plug.
If the cap is empty it will store much of the energy comming from the plug, but when the cap is charged to let's say 100 volts, the cap pushes 100 volts against the plug...
So let's say the plug sends 200 volts to the cap, the effective voltage will be only 200 minus the 100 that already is in the cap = 100 in stead of 200.
This means the cap charges rather fast at first but when it becomes charged, only the voltage from the plug that is above the voltage of the cap will add to the charge.
So in effect, the voltage the plug has to overcome the charge of the cap to add to the charge, the 100 volts, is lost in the process.
If we could start with an totally empty capacitor all the time, we would see diffrent things.
Therefore it is important that we get rid of the charge that is in the cap, fighting agains the energy comming from the plug.
That is one of the things some people miss and i do not want to make it too difficult to understand.
Another thing is that Diodes are leaky, they never cut off the flow totally.
You could look at them as if their resistance changes but not between a zero ohm and infinty.
Vacuum diodes, however do block the flow in one direction.
There is a great diffrence between them.
you can have something that is totally closed or you can have something that is almost closed.
In the case of the almost closed situation there can be a back flow of energy due to charge diffrences, and even in opposide directions.
An intresting thing to look at is the "Avalanche breakdown" where the electrons are ripped off.
It has been claimed that when this happens, the ripped off electrons are replaced by electrons out of the environment, so in effect they attract energy from the local environment.
I could write a book about all of this but there are many,many good books already that deal with these kind of things.

M.

Hi Marco,

See I did not know that about AV plug and the capacitor pushing against the charge, thus we need to discharge the capacitor often as well, something similar to what Bedini did in his chargers with capacitor and 555 timer triggering an opto-coupled transistor and SCR?

I see you mention avalanche and I've seen elsewhere mention of avalanche diodes, would using those help instead of normal ones since they appear could conduct high voltage away to wherever we want it to go?

Do you know if there's anything written up on the Web about those analog networks and how to replicate them and the effects they create? I'm looking for an alternative source of effects that Tesla coils create, without the use of the Tesla coils and those networks seemed like a good start...this is for a totally different application though, not free energy, but alternative medicine.

Soooo, how do we coerce you to write up a book on your experiences and findings? :D

Thanks again.

Yeah Marco, write a book and school us in the analog skills!  I will buy a copy!  ;D

Hi Guyla

You're right about put capacitor 1000 uF pararel with battery.
Now i change the schematic and made revision to 08 (see attachment).
I've got email from my friend with attachment TEP (time energy pump) his version for 12V lead acid battery, 2 x TIP3055 and put C1,C2,C3 with 100nf, 100nf, 1000uF.
C1, C2, C3 must match with frekuensi oscilation.
I can't post his diagram without get permit from him.
What will i do only learn his concept and combining with my circuit design.
I can't find on my stock for 100nf, 100nf and 1000uf
I try with 150 nf, 150nf, 4700 uf
Now, with my circuit design , i got battery drain only 0.001 volt  every hours, without reducing brightness LED (output).
Thanks GOD

If we can find matching between frequency oscilation with c1,c2,c3, the battery will not drain anymore maybe only little bit.  It will  proof the led/output not related again with source/battery.

Unfortunally, i don't have the right tools to countinue my eksperiment, we must now exactly of freqeuncy oscilation and try with some combination of c1,c2,c3 . I think try with 100nf,100nf,1000uf and other 150nf,150nf,1500uf etc and some trial freqeuncy oscilation. After that make new equatation/formula relation between frequency oscilation and c1,c2,c3. Please share on this thread after u get result.


zon

Quote from: sanmankl on April 03, 2008, 06:29:44 AM
I've tried your modification and my result is the same/similar to my earlier circuit (groundloop design).

@sanmank

Please allow your circuit running minimum 10 hours, before you make measurement.
Because the toroid will energized for that time.

zon

Hi Zon,

Re on your C1, C2 and C3 in your revision 08.

I understand the role of C1 as to make your 3rd coil resonant at the oscillator frequency so the value of C1 should be chosen by trial, you may wish to obtain some 10nF, 22nF,  56nF and 100nF capacitors and putting them in parallel gradually at C1 to see if the LED brightness increases or decreases (approaching the oscillator frequency by the self-resonant frequency of your 3rd coil+C1 should make the LED brighter and brighter and at the same time the current consumption from the battery less and less).

The role of C2 and C3 as I understand it is not making resonance but making the battery AC impedance the smallest possible on the ocsillator's frequency.  And high value electrolytic capacitors in general are poor performers at your 20-150kHz frequency range because their series equivalent resistances increases with the frequency. To compensate this, the rule of thumb is to connect smaller value capacitors in parallel with them which are not electrolytic types and they will have much better higher frequency performance.  So your C3 will work well from some Hertz up to some kHz as an AC shunt for the battery and your C2 will take over this role from some kHz to some tens of kHz frequency (a better selection were using a 470nF and 47 or 56nF extra capacitor also in parallel with the battery to get a really wide band AC shunt across the battery).

I apologize for saying this: I personally do not think your circuit you have shown is overunity, I would say only a highly efficient oscillator to convert battery energy into light energy (though the LEDs are still not approach your oscillator circuit efficiency).  A few years ago I built joule thief like oscillator circuits with germanium transistors and diodes to minimize active devices inherent voltage drops. It is true then I did not have your 3rd coil added to regain some energy from the input energy but even so I do not think to reach over unity.  Perhaps when you get permission from your friend to show here a different circuit with a 'twist', I may start such experiments again.

Bill earlier in this thread mentioned replacing the battery with capacitors. This is a very good idea to see its DC voltage increasing or decreasing when you tweak your circuit: you charge up a supercap of a few Farad to 1.2V from your battery or from a supply and run your circuit from this supercap. After some time you will clearly see its DC voltage changing down or stays on or maybe inreasing as you tune or adjust your components.
You may find some Farad capacitors here http://www.readycomponents.com/1/3/gold-cap  and a 3.3F for 2.3V max DC working voltage costs $3.90 here http://www.readycomponents.com/1/1/197157-cap-33f-23v-gold-hw-radial-eechw0d335.html   Of course there are many places to buy similar Farad caps. If you use such cap instead of the battery, you will not get any illusion on the efficiency of you wonder circuits: once the initial input charge you start with gets reducing from your capacitor, you can be sure you still have a circuit of underunity...

Keep up your good work, do not be discouraged by my thoughts!

rgds,  Gyula

Quote from: zon on April 03, 2008, 11:27:44 PM
Hi Guyla

You're right about put capacitor 1000 uF pararel with battery.
Now i change the schematic and made revision to 08 (see attachment).
I've got email from my friend with attachment TEP (time energy pump) his version for 12V lead acid battery, 2 x TIP3055 and put C1,C2,C3 with 100nf, 100nf, 1000uF.
C1, C2, C3 must match with frekuensi oscilation.
I can't post his diagram without get permit from him.
What will i do only learn his concept and combining with my circuit design.
I can't find on my stock for 100nf, 100nf and 1000uf
I try with 150 nf, 150nf, 4700 uf
Now, with my circuit design , i got battery drain only 0.001 volt  every hours, without reducing brightness LED (output).
Thanks GOD

If we can find matching between frequency oscilation with c1,c2,c3, the battery will not drain anymore maybe only little bit.  It will  proof the led/output not related again with source/battery.

Unfortunally, i don't have the right tools to countinue my eksperiment, we must now exactly of freqeuncy oscilation and try with some combination of c1,c2,c3 . I think try with 100nf,100nf,1000uf and other 150nf,150nf,1500uf etc and some trial freqeuncy oscilation. After that make new equatation/formula relation between frequency oscilation and c1,c2,c3. Please share on this thread after u get result.


zon

Quote from: zon on April 03, 2008, 11:43:00 PM

Quote from: sanmankl on April 03, 2008, 06:29:44 AM
I've tried your modification and my result is the same/similar to my earlier circuit (groundloop design).

@sanmank

Please allow your circuit running minimum 10 hours, before you make measurement.
Because the toroid will energized for that time.

zon

@zon, I'll do that. Actually, I changed my toroid to a bigger one so I may need longer run time before measurement.

Thanks. cp

Quote from: gyulasun on April 03, 2008, 11:04:54 AM

Quote from: sanmankl on April 03, 2008, 06:29:44 AM

2N2222A transistor, 60~65mA drainage. I somehow cannot get the circuit to >30mA like others do.

Hi Sanmankl,

I have included a trimmer potmeter in Zon schematics so that you could try to reduce the 60-65mA current consumption you have. The 470nF capacitor in parallel to this trimmer potmeter is to prevent the reducing effect of the potmeter in AC drive to the transistor base, so that only the DC base current can change when you turn the potmeter.
The 1000uF electrolytic capacitor I drew in parallel with the battery is not obligatory of course, it may help lower the AC inner impedance of the battery.

Gyula

@Gyula,

Thanks. I'll put in a 4700uF in parallel to the battery. I also found out that I can trim the mA consumption with a 220 ohm pot. Can't do it with the value suggested. Now, current consumption is at 20mA.

Cheers, cp

Quote from: sanmankl on April 05, 2008, 04:18:05 AM

@Gyula,

Thanks. I'll put in a 4700uF in parallel to the battery. I also found out that I can trim the mA consumption with a 220 ohm pot. Can't do it with the value suggested. Now, current consumption is at 20mA.

Cheers, cp

Hi, 

OK on the 220 Ohm pot, and you may wish to connect some more resistance in series with the pot (starting from some hundred Ohms),  the some hundred kOhm value I suggested is to high for the 1.2V supply voltage I agree, it was better for 9-12V supply voltages.
One more thing: ok on your high value cap in parallel with the battery, and consider what I suggested to Zon on the role and values of C1 and C2 capacitors too.

Cheers,  Gyula

Quote from: gyulasun on April 05, 2008, 04:47:36 AM

Quote from: sanmankl on April 05, 2008, 04:18:05 AM

@Gyula,

Thanks. I'll put in a 4700uF in parallel to the battery. I also found out that I can trim the mA consumption with a 220 ohm pot. Can't do it with the value suggested. Now, current consumption is at 20mA.

Cheers, cp

Hi, 

OK on the 220 Ohm pot, and you may wish to connect some more resistance in series with the pot (starting from some hundred Ohms),  the some hundred kOhm value I suggested is to high for the 1.2V supply voltage I agree, it was better for 9-12V supply voltages.
One more thing: ok on your high value cap in parallel with the battery, and consider what I suggested to Zon on the role and values of C1 and C2 capacitors too.

Cheers,  Gyula

Hi,

I'm using a 1V2 battery. After some tuning with various caps, the circuit draw is not at 15mA. The LED is not as bright as before but it is still visible in daylight. I'll leave this circuit running until the LED is not lit anymore and I'll report the run time.

Thanks for the pointers.

cp

Quote from: amigo on April 03, 2008, 10:16:54 PM

Hi Marco,

See I did not know that about AV plug and the capacitor pushing against the charge, thus
we need to discharge the capacitor often as well, something similar to what Bedini did in his
chargers with capacitor and 555 timer triggering an opto-coupled transistor and SCR?

Hi
Yes we really need to move the charge elswhere so the cap can store it all in stead of just
the part that is above the level that the cap is charged to.
Note that when we look at A battery things are diffrent.
If we charge a 12 volt NICD battery with a voltage of let's say 11 volt, the battery will
not recharge above 11 volts.
If we try to charge a empty battery it just does not charge when the voltage is below the
nominal voltage rating of the cell.
So here we can see a diffrent thing compared to the capacitor.
We can hit a rechagable battery wit many, many high voltage pulses from the avramenko's
plug.
The battery slowly charges and the voltage will not push against the plug like the capacitor.
As soon as the high voltage pulse is gone, the voltage of the battery drops so it is quite
diffrent compared to the capacitor.
I have done both, first store the avramenko's pulse into a cap and then discharge the cap
into a rechargable battery.
This is also why in solar panels a charge controller is needed.
When the sun goes behind the clouds, the boltage of the solar panels drop, resulting in the
fact that the voltage is too low to charge the battery.
Therfore the voltage needs to be stepped up so it is always above the voltage of the
storing cells.
The goal is to keep the voltage high enough so the batterys charge even when there is not
much light.

Quote from: amigo on April 03, 2008, 10:16:54 PM

I see you mention avalanche and I've seen elsewhere mention of avalanche diodes, would
using those help instead of normal ones since they appear could conduct high voltage away to
wherever we want it to go?

Well i was pointing out to the effect so not really component based.
Voltage acts as stress on semiconductors and metals.
The effect depends on how fast an object is hit by electrons,so it releases more electrons.
In vacuum tubes this is called secondary emmission and it's like a chain reaction.

Quote from: amigo on April 03, 2008, 10:16:54 PM

Do you know if there's anything written up on the Web about those analog networks and how
to replicate them and the effects they create? I'm looking for an alternative source of
effects that Tesla coils create, without the use of the Tesla coils and those networks
seemed like a good start...this is for a totally different application though, not free
energy, but alternative medicine.

Soooo, how do we coerce you to write up a book on your experiences and findings? :D

Thanks again.

I know that dave from ctg-labs aswell as jl naudin have replicated these experiments.
Borderland sciences sells books written by Dollard and others.
I have done some experimanting myself in this area and i was certain the frequency was key in which kind of load the circuit powerd.
I had attached diffrent kinds of loads and to my surprise by moving the frequency up and down i was able to power the loads seperatly from each other while they were on the same line.
It was a good example as to see which path the electrons choose at what frequency.
It's not always the way with the lowest resistance...
As for the book, maybe one day, but now im just busy with sport and work.

Marco

Hi builders and circuits designers,

Sorry for disturbing, but:
An average 'bright' white LED is given for about 3 Volts and 20 ma. Right?
With one of the simple circuit proposed here (with a bifilar coil and a 470 microF cap),
I got about 1.2 volts (NimH) and 25 ma. My LED was not 'glowing' but 'firmly' bright
(according to my old eyes  :)).

This must not be 'OU' but is, obviously, more efficient than what is 'officially' advised.
(1.2*25 < 3 * 20) . Actually it is a 'Joule Thief'.

BTW: please do not 'hot-plug' your LED when the 470microF cap is filled  :P!

I also tried one of the 3filar coil circuit proposed here. I got the same results (light-wise)
but with an amp consumption of about 50/60 ma. So, what is the advantage of a tri-filar coil?
Are, any of you,suggesting that the (single) bat could also be refilled while working? Why not?

Another question please : What does "Long Long time" mean?
Anyway, thanks a lot for sharing all these creative circuits.

Best

@gyula

My friend's email to me (sample DC Pump Energy, Maybe from JLN Labs).  Concept only.
I want combining with our "LED" design.
Could u help me and share to us

zon

Quote from: zon on April 08, 2008, 02:00:13 AM
@gyula

My friend's email to me (sample DC Pump Energy, Maybe from JLN Labs).  Concept only.
I want combining with our "LED" design.
Could u help me and share to us

zon

Hi Zon,

I combined your "LED" design with this latest circuit you showed. I hope it is how you wished?

Naudin made some test on such circuits  (of course without the LED circuit addition) in 1997 he called it TEP projects, see here:
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/tep50a3.htm

He used a 12V battery and 100mA average current and his battery maintained its starting voltage for one day.  It is a pity he did not include some more days' tests... I guess his battery started to discharge...?

Gyula

@gyula

Thanks for your circuit combining
How much value of R2 and R3  ?
I have try with 1K, but it's not working.
Sorry for my poor electronic background.

My friend sugest for TEP ver 50a3, http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/tep50a3.htm to take off C7 , it's would be better.

zon

Quote from: zon on April 08, 2008, 09:29:28 PM
@gyula

Thanks for your circuit combining
How much value of R2 and R3  ?
I have try with 1K, but it's not working.
Sorry for my poor electronic background.

My friend sugest for TEP ver 50a3, http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/tep50a3.htm to take off C7 , it's would be better.

zon

Hi zon,

The values of R2 and R3 depends on the transistor DC current gain parameter (hFE) you are using.  The best is to experiment with  220 kOhm trimmer potmeters in places of R2 and R3 (your 1 kOhm value is too low).  If you look at Naudin's schematics he used 470 kOhms but it was for the 12V battery and you use 1.2V battery. 
Here the choice/type of transistors narrows down to types of low collector-emitter saturation voltages and the best would be to look around your shopping possibilities to choose from.  Hint: see this Fairchild transistor tablet:
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/sitesearch/fsc.jsp?command=toggleSort&attr1=Small+Signal+Transistor%2F%2FSaturation+Voltage+Vcesat&attr2=0&q=50&qt=1207735589&vid=%24__visitId__%24&i=part_number&qid=%24__queryId__%24&s1=Product+Volume%2F%2F0&s0=Product+New%2F%2F0&g=Family&a1=Saturation+Voltage+Vcesat%2F%2Fv%3A0&a0=AAAFamily%2F%2Fv%3A0&as=1&qtid=%24__lastTextQueryId__%24&t=0&ia=1&c2=n3%3A2%2F%2FSaturation+Voltage+Vcesat%2F%2F0..0%2F%2F1..0&c1=e%3A12%2F%2Fpart_type%2F%2F%3Aeq%2F%2Fg&c0=e%3A0%2F%2FAAAFamily%2F%2F%3Aeq%2F%2FSmall+Signal+Transistor&domains=fairchild_db%3Apart_number&text=

It lists the transistors by saturation voltages, starting by the lowest saturation types (so the best in your application).  There is the FJC690 transistor with 80mV saturation voltage at 100mA collector current, this type is developed for camera flash circuits ( http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/FJ/FJC690.pdf ) and its 45V max collector emitter breakdown voltage hopefully will be enough for the inductive peaks of your coils if you always run your circuit under a load i.e. with LEDs on the 3rd coil etc.
Of course it is possible this type is not readily avaiable at your local electric components shop but probably you can select from the choices there for the minimum saturation voltage (0.2 - 0.3V  is just the bearable max value as a trade-off).  The higher the saturation voltage the worse the circuit efficiency becomes due to the dissipation on the transistor. If you use a transistor with 0.3V saturation voltage, the effect is like you were using a 0.9V battery (1.2V-0.3V=0.9V).

Re on the C7:  in an earlier post above I answered my views on caps in parallel with the battery. It is possible that there are circuits and its components in which it is not needed, experiment can only tell.  Nevertheless, a bank of good capacitors of 22nF 47nF 100nF 220nF values are always a good thing to have in your junk box!

rgds, Gyula

Hey guys and gals.
Just got here yesterday and have been thumbing thru the pages. My main objective is researching fuel efficiency devices/tchniques but I cam across this and found it pretty awesome. I put headlights in my daughters power wheels jeep powered by a big 6v flashlight battery. Does not last long at all. I wanted to switch to a cluster of leds in each headlight and was wondering if anyone could clue me in with some simple direction on how I would go about it using this circuit? ........ Would this be a good experiment for her powerwheels batt and motor as well. If I could extend the batt life between charges that would be awesome. Just curious...
Notsure

Quote from: notsure on April 09, 2008, 11:18:32 AM
Hey guys and gals.
Just got here yesterday and have been thumbing thru the pages. My main objective is researching fuel efficiency devices/tchniques but I cam across this and found it pretty awesome. I put headlights in my daughters power wheels jeep powered by a big 6v flashlight battery. Does not last long at all. I wanted to switch to a cluster of leds in each headlight and was wondering if anyone could clue me in with some simple direction on how I would go about it using this circuit? ........ Would this be a good experiment for her powerwheels batt and motor as well. If I could extend the batt life between charges that would be awesome. Just curious...
Notsure

Hi Notsure,

The best powersavings come from energy not consumed. The trick with LEDs (or normal lamps) is our eye does not senses when we switch on and off a LED quickly enough. So if you supply your LEDs with current pulses of appropiate strength instead of normal continuous DC current (in fact you chop up the continuous flow), then your average current consumption will be less,  with nearly the same LED brigthness sensation.
And if you could combine the pulsed current supply with inductive circuits in which the collapsing magnetic field at pulse switch-off induces a socalled flyback pulse across the coil and you make sure this flyback pulse is regained, then this is another possibility for increasing efficiency of your circuit i.e. reduce input energy consumption. 
A good example for the combination of both abovementioned tricks is the joule-thief type circuits.

There are other circuits whereby you quickly charge up a capacitor to a given voltage level under a half periode time of a full period and connect this capacitor in series with the main supply voltage under the other half periode to get quasi the double supply voltage to feed a LED, this solution also gives a reduced average current consumption.  Here you can see circuits applying this principle:  http://www.discovercircuits.com/PDF-FILES/1vled3.pdf or http://www.imagineeringezine.com/PDF-FILES/ac14fls.pdf 

Your specific problem you mentioned is partly solved by this circuit: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Bill_Bowden/555.htm#555leds.gif  where the NE555 timer gives out 4.7Hz pulses to drive transistor that switch LED arrays for flashing bicycle lights.  This circuit can only achieve powersawings by the pulsed switching of the LEDs on and off I mentioned first above ( the frequency and the duty cycle of the pulses should be experimented with),  and has no coil with collapsing field to regain some energy from the input energy. 

Further useful links with very good explanations: http://cappels.org/dproj/ledpage/leddrv.htm or http://cappels.org/dproj/PulseBoostLED/Pulse_Boost_White_LED.html or http://www.talkingelectronics.com/projects/LEDTorchCircuits/LEDTorchCircuits-P1.html

Armed with these hints you now can start experimenting with simple, low power circuits first then attack your powerhungry headlights with the knowledge gained.    :) :D

rgds, Gyula

@ Gyula:

Thanks for supplying all of the links when you answered the other posted question.  Now I have even more reading to do and more to learn.  Excellent.  Thanks.

Bill

@all

Here is improvement idea from  my friends, he is already at my town
Replicate it  and we will see phenomena

zon

Hi Zon,
thanks for the circuit, but I guess you connected the LEDs the wrong way ?
in series with the 1N4148 they could not light like this...

@harti

you're correct, i'm forget to rotate the led :)

How to see that phenomena;

Use full charged battery Nimh 1.2 V. The voltage around 1.3xx V
First, drain full charged battery from 1.3xx V to 1.2xx V with 8 leds
after the voltage reach the 1.2xx V, take off 7 leds , leave just 1 led.
After that the battery looks never drain again. Amazing
Thanks GOD

zon

My friend told me a couple way to make OU and I asking how to implementation OU on my led circuit.

Now, i make revision no 10, i hope it will over unity.
Look at picture, i put two permanent magnet and close the hole of toroid, there are two posibilities depend on polarity of third coil. Posibility are    N-S TOROID COIL  N-S  or  S-N T0ROID COIL S-N

Wow, my circuit charging itself. Start i put battery with voltage 1.290 and now became 1.340.

Now,  My circuit OU suspect. Please replicate it, see it and measure it. If true OU maybe i can get the PRIZE :)

?We are nothing without support of God"

zon

Hi Zon,

Very interesting circuit you have, thanks for showing it. 

Could you ask you friend why is it important to use different diameter wires for the trigger and power coils?

I think the circuit can only prove it is producing OU if you continuosly monitor the voltage level across the battery for a long long period of time.  And long periode should mean even some weeks, not some days. This is one way to make sure you are not tricked by the battery effect Groundloop mentioned earlier http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4223.msg85436.html#msg85436

Another way to get rid of the battery effect is to use a very high value capacitor instead of the battery, have a look at supercap, goldcap, ultracap by google. See prices here for instance, out of many choices: http://www.banzaieffects.com/Goldcaps-c-462.html   If you could place such a high value capacitor say either a 0.22F or a 0.47F in parallel with the battery and several minutes later you remove the battery (which also showed a steady slow increase in voltage) and see the voltage also across the supercap which way it changes,  you could receive a much better info on possible extra output from your circuit.  It is a good idea to charge up the supercap first from a separate battery to around 1.2 - 1.3V and connect it then in parallel to the battery which runs your circuit.

(Make sure that during the day or week long tests the dry battery inside your multimeter is in a good condition because it affects accuracy of your meter when it starts depleting...)

If you wish to further minimize circuit inherent losses, I advise using germanium or schottky diodes instead of the 1N4148 diodes (which by the way very very good diodes here but have a forward voltage drop of 0.6 - 0.7V what you simply have to sacrifice).
Though germanium diodes are rare nowadays if you could get some 1N34s or OA160 OA161 or similar diodes (they have 0.1 - 0.2V forward drop only)   or schottky diodes like 1N5817 (0.3V forward drop) or BAT46 or 48 (drop of 0.3 - 0.4V).  These are not a "must buy" components,  only give some further improvements in fight against losses.
The transistor 2N2222 is a good type with low saturation collector emitter voltage.

Keep up good work!

rgds,  Gyula

@Zon,

Always run your circuit for a long time before reporting o/u.
See my simple drawing on how batteries behave when discharged.

I have replicated your circuit. I run the circuit from a depleted NiMeh battery.
It runs well and the battery is slowly climbing in voltage. I will let it run until I can
determine if this is real charge or just the battery playing tricks on me.

[EDIT] I did a test. Disconnected the L3 coil. Battery fell rapidly from 0.576 Volt down to 0.570 Volt.
                           Connected L3 again. Battery is climbing back towards 0.576 Volt again.
                           Hmmmm................

          My circuit is like the Zon circuit but without the electrolytic capacitor. I also 100nF Ceramic
          capacitors instead of plastfilm capacitors.

Stay tuned.....

Groundloop.

Quote from: Groundloop on April 12, 2008, 09:15:55 AM

[EDIT] I did a test. Disconnected the L3 coil. Battery fell rapidly from 0.576 Volt down to 0.570 Volt.
                           Connected L3 again. Battery is climbing back towards 0.576 Volt again.
                           Hmmmm................

Hi Groundloop,

My present understanding on the role of the 3rd coil is that when the transistor switches off, the collapsing field in the toroid core induces a voltage in (all three) coils so the diodes can rectify it in the 3rd coil and from this respect the battery is the load for this rectified current.  If a DC current meter were inserted in series with the battery, it would show a reduced (or in case of real overunity) a zero or negative current consumption!  Of course it is difficult to insert a real DC current meter without disturbing the normal working of the oscillator but maybe somehow it can be matched.  Maybe a small 1 Ohm resistor shunted by capacitors and monitoring the voltage drop across it would be enough, with short wire leads to the meter.

On your note on the missing electrolytic cap: you mean the 100uF across the battery?  If so what happens when you do use one?

Thanks,  Gyula

@Gyulasun,

Yes, it is the electrolytic capacitor across the battery. I will solder in one and see what happens.

I have been running the circuit for some (4) hours now and the LED is going dim. The loaded battery voltage
has climbed to 0,580 Volt. Even if the battery voltage has climbed a bit the LED is going more dim indicating
less charge in the battery. So my circuit is not o/u as it is now. The higher battery voltage can be explained with a higher battery resistance due to deep discharge.

[EDIT] I see no difference in circuit behaviour with or without a electrolytic cap.

Groundloop.

Quote from: Groundloop on April 12, 2008, 02:01:57 PM
Even if the battery voltage has climbed a bit the LED is going more dim indicating
less charge in the battery. So my circuit is not o/u as it is now. The higher battery voltage can be explained with a higher battery resistance due to deep discharge.

Groundloop.

Groundloop,
this is unlogical.
It should then show less voltage as you can not measure at the internal resistor of the battery.
Or did you disconnect the circuit and did measure then the open circuit voltage ?
Thanks.
Regards, Stefan.

Stefan,

No, it is the loaded voltage. The battery voltage when disconnected is much higher.
And it is logic. A discharged battery has a internal resistanse that is higher than
a charged battery. I have seen this many times when using deep discharged
batteries.

Groundloop.

Ahh,
I see, I thought you said  the loaded voltage would be higher than the unloaded.
Okay, then you are right...

@All
did anybody again try it with a sparkgap ?
That would be the only way to get more free electrons into the circuit..

Stefan,

You don't give up on the spark gap do you?  :D

My problem is how it could be done with this sort of circuit. I think we first must
make an oscillator that make a very high voltage on the L3 coil. On this coil
output there can be a spark gap. Then we must transform the voltage down with
another transformer again before looping the output back to the battery. So if we
drive the first circuit from a 1,2 Volt battery and the L1/L2 is approx. 20 turn then
the L3 must be made with many turns. It IS doable I think.

Groundloop.

@All,

I connected one Duracell Ultra size AAA to test the Zon version 10 circuit. I got full led brightness for 12 Hours,
reduced led brightness for 4 more hours and now the circuit has very dim led brightness. I can say that my replica is not overunity.

Groundloop.

Thanks groundloop

@stefan
I have not tried yet with the spark gap, but hopefully I will be able to do this soon. I plan on using a microscope to attach a micrometer graphite / silver spark gap on a glass slide.

@zon
Great work, I am glad to see you are willing to try so many new circuits!

Quote from: gyulasun on April 12, 2008, 07:25:19 AM
Could you ask you friend why is it important to use different diameter wires for the trigger and power coils?

I think the circuit can only prove it is producing OU if you continuosly monitor the voltage level across the battery for a long long period of time.  And long periode should mean even some weeks, not some days. This is one way to make sure you are not tricked by the battery effect Groundloop mentioned earlier http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4223.msg85436.html#msg85436

@Gyulasun
My friend said, different diameter wire it's not important. I use it because already coil.

I said my circuit suspect OU, and now i'm still monitoring.
Battery voltage still on 1.270 Volt , on 24 hours
Start from 12 April 2008, 11 April 2008, 07.00 am GMT+7
Starting climbing to 1.310 Volt, and now steady at 1.270 Volt for last two days.

@groundloop
Please, use battery only for charging type  like NiMH because circuit have self charging for get OU (I hope).

@all
Please replicate , my revision 10 with two LED (forget it, another revision)  because revision 10 (with two led)
I will try with my friend for implementation OU (big hope). 

My friend at my place for 2 months doing  energy project.


zon

After, i have a lot of trial/experiment, here is my summary about efficiency.

Type of toroid transformer, from lowest to highest effiency

1. Bifilar same diameter coil
2. Bifilar with different diameter coil (keep the ratio 0.7, trigger coil and power coil ratio)
3. Trifilar  same diameter coil
4. Bifilar same diameter coil + third coil same diameter with power coil
5. Bifilar with different diameter coil + third coil same diameter power coil
6. Bifilar with different diameter coil + third coil same diameter power coil different number of turn (more than number turn of power coil)

Until now.. i can't get the OU :(


regards

zon

Quote from: zon on April 21, 2008, 11:30:06 PM
After, i have a lot of trial/experiment, here is my summary about efficiency.

Type of toroid transformer, from lowest to highest effiency

1. Bifilar same diameter coil
2. Bifilar with different diameter coil (keep the ratio 0.7, trigger coil and power coil ratio)
3. Trifilar  same diameter coil
4. Bifilar same diameter coil + third coil same diameter with power coil
5. Bifilar with different diameter coil + third coil same diameter power coil
6. Bifilar with different diameter coil + third coil same diameter power coil different number of turn (more than number turn of power coil)

Until now.. i can't get the OU :(

regards
zon 

Hi Zon,

Your 'ou'  friend

either knows a "secret" and he really achieved extra output power (but he does not want to share you the secret)

or  he does not know the "secret" and he can or cannot reproduce it again

or  he thinks he achieved extra output (and does not know how) by either  misled  by "battery effect" or wrong measurements.

This is what I think.  Sorry for this conclusion.

Keep up good spirit and experimenting!  If you consider some of my earlier advices on the transistor and diode types, you may still increase your present efficiency after your point 6.  Also, if you make your third coil to be resonant with an extra capacitor at the frequency the circuit is running?  just a guess...

rgds,  Gyula

@gyula

Thanks for your attention.
My "OU" friends not tell me what i should do or drawing schematic for me, he only give me a clue.
Unfortunantly to realize his clue , i should have osciloscope.

Now , he promise me to build gadget with battery 12 v 3.5 AH, inverter DC-AC 220V, inductor, magnet etc.

He promise this gadget will give the energy around 300 watt continous, without charging battery from electricity anymore.  I promise to take picture that gadget and sharing it,  but maybe for schematic he not allowed it. I still collecting the component that he want it. Maybe next week i will show it.


zon

Hi all, i've been playing around with the led circuit and i had a bifilar wound ferrite toroid and a trifilar wound ceramic?(yellow ring) and the voltage in the system goes up. the led's don't light at all but the voltage in the batteries goes up. not sure how to tell wether the battery is playing tricks on me but i had 5 led's hooked up, with 4AA batteries and the circuit would start out and the led's were not lit, came back in 5 min and the LED's were lit up and the battery voltage had went up.

i'll draw up a diagram of my circuit which battery voltage can start at 0.5 and it'll end above 1V, not sure if the batteries are playing tricks on me or the circuit is actually charging the batteries, i'll post the schematic and a picture of the circuit, i think it's all in the coil windings to be honest, bifilar coils to me look like a relay race of the electrons, except for when A passes to B he still has to finish the race, so you start with A and end up with AB.

Here is my latest trial.
It's works. The battery not drain anymore. :)   
Thanks GOD.
Maybe, Energy enter to system come from 3 of NE2 bulb (see pict)
Replicate it !

zon

Quote from: zon on April 28, 2008, 10:57:37 PM
Here is my latest trial.
It's works. The battery not drain anymore. :)   
Thanks GOD.
Maybe, Energy enter to system come from 3 of NE2 bulb (see pict)
Replicate it !

zon

Hi Zon,

Thanks for this circuit.  I would like to ask how long the battery "not drain anymore"?

Do you monitor the current consumption from the battery by a multimeter?  If yes, do you see any change in battery current when you remove one or all three Neon bulbs?
Are the Neon bulbs faintly lit or they remain dark?  How many white LEDs do you use now?

Here is some good info on Neon bulbs and on NE-2 too:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neon_bulb

They have a negative resistance characterictic when they reach the so called striking voltage limit and current starts flowing in the noble gas inside the bulb, usually this voltage is around 85-90V or higher. Below this voltage the bulb is an open circuit just like an air gap.

Sorry for the many questions... ;) 

rgds,  Gyula

Quote from: zon on April 28, 2008, 10:57:37 PM
Here is my latest trial.
It's works. The battery not drain anymore. :)   
Thanks GOD.
Maybe, Energy enter to system come from 3 of NE2 bulb (see pict)
Replicate it !

zon

That is very interesting.
Could you please also post a few pictures of your coils
setup ?

As the LED would shortout the Neon bulbs at around 2.7 Volts
I wonder, how they get the power into the circuit ?
But gas discharges also played a major role in the Chernetski
device, so maybe this is a small version
of a Chernetski device ?

I don't get it, is the NE2 lit or not in that photo?

I mean that's a pretty good step-up from 1.2v to 70v if you got the NE2 to light up, especially three of them...

Sorry, here is my latest trial, revision number 14.
Measurement at + battery, 3.6 mA
The battery still drain in certain time but improve the duration.

What i do is combining my circuit with my friend's free energy charging (FEC) system.

I share FEC'S my friend pict.
Component are :
    3 pcs NE2
    4 pcs Diode 6A2
    6 toys magnet (Rattlesnake sound eggs, made in China)
    Coil SWG 35, 0.2130 mm
    Capacitor 4700uF/25V
    Capacitor 100 nF
    Ferit (not torroid)

Unfortunantly, my friend's not allowed me to share coil setup.
I have try use FEC to charge LEAD ACID BATTERY 6 V 4AH and 12 V 3.5AH.
It's work ! no tricky

It's encourage me to combining with my circuit and guest the coil setup.
If i got it by my self , i will share it

zon

Quote from: zon on April 29, 2008, 09:37:35 PM
Sorry, here is my latest trial, revision number 14.
Measurement at + battery, 3.6 mA
The battery still drain in certain time but improve the duration.

Hi Zon,

When you measured 3.6mA current from the battery, how strongly your LED (and/or the NE2 bulbs) were lit?  You used one or more LEDs?

Quote
What i do is combining my circuit with my friend's free energy charging (FEC) system.

I share FEC'S my friend pict.
Component are :
    3 pcs NE2
    4 pcs Diode 6A2
    6 toys magnet (Rattlesnake sound eggs, made in China)
    Coil SWG 35, 0.2130 mm
    Capacitor 4700uF/25V
    Capacitor 100 nF
    Ferit (not torroid)

Unfortunantly, my friend's not allowed me to share coil setup.
I have try use FEC to charge LEAD ACID BATTERY 6 V 4AH and 12 V 3.5AH.
It's work ! no tricky 

Regarding the FEC circuit, can you measure its current comsumption from its own 1.2V battery  when it charges the 6V 4Ah lead acid battery and the 12V 3.5Ah battery?  Also can you check the charging currents too?   And the NE2 bulbs in the FEC circuit are lit when while it charges the batteries?

Thanks for the infos and keep up good work!

rgds,  Gyula

Quote from: zon on April 29, 2008, 09:37:35 PM
I share FEC'S my friend pict.
Component are :
    3 pcs NE2
    4 pcs Diode 6A2
    6 toys magnet (Rattlesnake sound eggs, made in China)
    Coil SWG 35, 0.2130 mm
    Capacitor 4700uF/25V
    Capacitor 100 nF
    Ferit (not torroid)

Unfortunantly, my friend's not allowed me to share coil setup.

Hi Zon,

One more question:  in the above component list for the FEC, I cannot see any transistor (or any active device),  is it NOT needed for the FEC?  And you know how many coils are used, one or more?

The 6a2 diodes are normal rectifier types (like 1n4002) but they are rated for 6A current and 200V, and not at all fast switching types but general purpose, I assume fast diodes are either not needed for the FEC circuit  or  they were at hand in the junk box...
thanks,  Gyula

@Gyula

my LED Circuit:
NE2 not lit.
LED lit as usual (without ne2)
but current drain change, less than without NE2.


FEC:
NE2 not lit,  is act as ion/electron valve only (he said)
No transistor or active component.
if you find fast swicthing diode is better.
i haven't measure the current yet. I'll post later


zon

Hi Zon,

thanks for the answers!   

Have you thought if there is no transistor (active component), then what makes the flux change? (because I guess something has to induce voltage in the coil to get output power and the 6 toy magnets have a static magnetic fields only, right?)    A mechanical switch perhaps  or an active device hidden inside the coil??

rgds,  Gyula

EDIT PS:  Can you ask your friend if his FEC is able to run from a super capacitor of 1 or 3.3 or 4.7 Farad, charged up first to 1.2V then connected to his circuit?  Because if it can, it is SURELY an exceptional circuit!!!

@gyula

Absolutely no active component. I saw on he winding before covering with tapes.
We don't try it on super capacitor.
He said this FEC , motionless generator ?


zon

Quote from: zon on May 02, 2008, 03:24:25 AM
@gyula

Absolutely no active component. I saw on he winding before covering with tapes.
We don't try it on super capacitor.
He said this FEC , motionless generator ?

zon

Hi Zon,

Thanks,  it is absolutly amazing if there is no active component for changing the flux in the coils or in the ferrit core because the permanent magnets have a static (non changing) magnetic field and something has got to induce AC voltage in the (output) coil for the diodes to rectify...

I have drawn a possible schematics on the FEC circuit from the three pictures as I can see the components connected, see below.  I guess normally the output comes from the 4700uF capacitor but as shown in your photos the output and the battery input is connected together to charge the 1.2V battery, this is why the short wires from the crocodile clips go to the output capacitor.

Now what remains is to find the coils data, the ferrit core material data and probably the poles of the magnets facing the cores/coils... ;) 

rgds, Gyula

I like this circuit ;D, I will take a guess and say the magnets have the same poles facing the core (in opposition) but balance this opposition in the core as attraction. Any small imbalance in the core would then produce oscillations which can be maintained with a feedback loop. Tesla once stated a neon bulb is a superconductor when excited having no resistance, but could possibly have external electrostatic effects on the circuit as the wires are very close to the neon's.
Very cool

Quote from: allcanadian on May 02, 2008, 06:50:45 PM
I like this circuit ;D, I will take a guess and say the magnets have the same poles facing the core (in opposition) but balance this opposition in the core as attraction. Any small imbalance in the core would then produce oscillations which can be maintained with a feedback loop. Tesla once stated a neon bulb is a superconductor when excited having no resistance, but could possibly have external electrostatic effects on the circuit as the wires are very close to the neon's.
Very cool

@allcanadian
I agree with what you are saying, yet when looking at the circuit the 100nF is useless, it is in parallel with 4700uF. Any such oscillation would be well below 1Hz, unless the actual feed back circuit is not shown in the diagram??

Yes, I agree with both of you.  However, am I correct to assume that in order for the neon bulb to work as a kind of 'superconductor',  the level of the DC or pulse voltage across it must reach the ON or striking voltage limit of the gas inside the bulb?   which is about 85V for the NE2 bulb type and this is NOT reached because Zon says the neon bulbs remain dark during operation.

Something (either components or wires) is still missing from the schematics but from the three pictures Zon uploaded I cannot make out any better schematics ...  If anybody could improve on the schematics I would welcome him!
Hopefully we can learn some more "secrets"  from this very interesting circuit sooner or later.

Thanks for your comments.

rgds,  Gyula

I am constantly "concerned" about the use of DVMs in any of our experiments...Somehow I have a feeling that they are either skewing the measurements or interfering with the measured circuits.
On more than one occasion I have noticed irregular readings, which have mostly happened when the battery power of the DVM was (or nearly) running out. Low battery is not an isolated incident and still I think that even with fresh batteries there could possibly be interference from the DVM to the circuit being tested.

What are your thoughts on the implications of use of analog panel meters as a replacement for DVM in these tests?

Quote from: amigo on May 03, 2008, 08:59:41 PM
I am constantly "concerned" about the use of DVMs in any of our experiments...Somehow I have a feeling that they are either skewing the measurements or interfering with the measured circuits.
On more than one occasion I have noticed irregular readings, which have mostly happened when the battery power of the DVM was (or nearly) running out. Low battery is not an isolated incident and still I think that even with fresh batteries there could possibly be interference from the DVM to the circuit being tested.

What are your thoughts on the implications of use of analog panel meters as a replacement for DVM in these tests?

@amigo
Being an old duffer, I started with the old linear meters, the loaders as I called them. Then the great invention of the vacuum tube voltmeter 10M or more input impedance and still drove a linear meter movement. Then we got the FET, now we could have a good portable running on battery and still have HiZ input. Then the greatest of the worst the DMM or DVM or whatever you call the things with digital readout and great accuracy.

I still hold in my mind the old VTVM was about the best of both worlds, you could put it in a metal box and decouple it from RF, the meter was slow so you did not see anomalous spikes etc.

Unless you spend $500 to over $5000 for a DVM/DMM I would agree that you are rolling dice when you make any claim based on the readings. What needs to be developed is a standardized protocol that will remove this problem.

@RStiffler

Dang it doc, why does everything have to revolve around expensive equipment? :)
I guess I'll have to pick up couple of analog meters on eBay, just to have around as an alternative.

I am all for establishing a protocol for measurements, iirc I did write about a need for one in some of the other threads (perhaps it was even in your SEC thread).
But then again how do we know that our test tools are telling us the truth? Even if we all get the same piece of equipment they could all be giving us false data because of the nature of our experiments and what we deal with (non-standard science).

Quote from: amigo on May 04, 2008, 02:58:10 PM
@RStiffler

Dang it doc, why does everything have to revolve around expensive equipment? :)
I guess I'll have to pick up couple of analog meters on eBay, just to have around as an alternative.

I am all for establishing a protocol for measurements, iirc I did write about a need for one in some of the other threads (perhaps it was even in your SEC thread).
But then again how do we know that our test tools are telling us the truth? Even if we all get the same piece of equipment they could all be giving us false data because of the nature of our experiments and what we deal with (non-standard science).

**Dang it doc, why does everything have to revolve around expensive equipment?
Hey! I don't set the prices on good gear. Once the US farmed everything out to (other countries) we have ("shit") for gear. I once would have given body parts for HP gear, it was one of the standards along with Tek, then you know what happened. You got problems, hey I am funding all my work out of savings and with interest rate so damn low and the market so volatile all I see is (-, negatives) so stop complaining and accept the fact that we are in a new world, one filled with crapy gear unless you pay top dollar. **END of my rant**

Well I have some good ideas on how a protocol can be set up and used by all (independent of crappy gear) and will cover that in my thread. But I like this thread because of some work I did in the late 90's with "Poly-phase" coils. I don't want to cover it here, but I do think that it is still available on the SS site.

Another thing for (All) those "Rattle Snake Magnets" are wild things.

No offense meant, but bite the bullet on the gear issue or revolt with me and go back to the old ways.

@RStiffler

I was just kidding about equipment being so expensive. I know that economic situation is not that great and most of us are stuck "between a rock and a hard place". Should've put a smiley at the end of the sentence... :)

I am willing to go back to the old ways because the more I read old papers and writings of pre-WWII era the more I realize they had more sense and intuition (dare I say "a clue") about certain things than we do today.

Maybe we could design and build our own test equipment geared towards alternative science?
I just don't know what we are even looking for or how we'd quantify it into a measurement when many of those are subtle energies being constantly interfered by the EM radiations in the environment.

Finaly, I get help from my friend to build special transformer/coil for combining "my circuit".
I have measurement for 4 days, yeah it's prove  my circuit not drain anymore.
Unfortunatly, i can't share the special coil setup because made by him (not my design), i only share the picture.
I'm only to say, it's posible to show free energy with electronic circuit and magnet.!

Now, the end of my adventure of "Led Lit for Long Long Time"  :)
I still on this forum.
See you on another energy experiment

zon

Note:
For "my circuit", i use same diameter coil, but different length only.
u can use different diameter coil that i use , but follow the length of coil (effect on the number of turn).
T01 i wound coil one by one,  not bifilar because not same length.

Quote from: zerotensor on March 05, 2008, 11:50:21 PM
I built a simple voltage-regulated driver circuit to run a pair of high-intensity leds off a single 9v battery for an art installation last November.  While taking down the show, I decided to leave the circuit running to see how long the leds would continue to glow.  Well, it's March now, and the leds are still lit.  Not super-bright, but still quite visible, even in broad daylight.  They have been putting out a flux of photons 24/7 for 4 months, and they don't seem to be getting any dimmer.

6 months now and still going, a wee bit dimmer it seems, but still cooking.  No coils, no magnets, no exotic materials.  Just a semiconductor voltage regulator, a diode, and a couple of resistors and caps.  LEDs are efficient, and human eyes are sensitive.

Hi Zon,

Very good,  thank you for the picture and the drawing!  Now that you have finished, Please do not dismantle your circuit but let it work continuosly as long as it is able to work, ok?  If the battery is getting overcharged, you may connect any further load (like a 20 Ohm resistor) in parallel with the battery to discharge it to 1.15-1.19V and let it run again for days, ok?

Would you answer some questions if you can:

1) Do you have to adjust the distance between the toroid core and the magnet(s)?  If yes, is it sensitive to the distance, is there a critical, narrow "sweet" distance?

2) In Reply #251 above 'allcanadian' referred to possible repel magnet poles facing the core, is that correct? Does the circuit work if attract poles are facing the core?

3) Would you measure the DC current from the battery? I mean for instance unsolder the two red wires at the bottom of your photo and insert your multimeter set to DCmA position.

4) I assume the 6 white LEDs are in parallel?

5) If you remove the two 1N4148 diodes going to the battery/100uF capacitor, will the brightness of the 6 LEDs change stronger or dimmer or remains the same?

If you think any one of the questions are violating your given word to your FE friend, then do not answer it.

Thanks,  Gyula

Quote from: zon on May 04, 2008, 11:22:37 PM
Finaly, I get help from my friend to build special transformer/coil for combining "my circuit".
I have measurement for 4 days, yeah it's prove  my circuit not drain anymore.
Unfortunatly, i can't share the special coil setup because made by him (not my design), i only share the picture.
I'm only to say, it's posible to show free energy with electronic circuit and magnet.!

Now, the end of my adventure of "Led Lit for Long Long Time"  :)
I still on this forum.
See you on another energy experiment

zon

Note:
For "my circuit", i use same diameter coil, but different length only.
u can use different diameter coil that i use , but follow the length of coil (effect on the number of turn).
T01 i wound coil one by one,  not bifilar because not same length.

@all
Revision number 15, correction for length of 3rd coil are 270 cm not 200 cm

@gyulasun

Configuration for magnet   NS --- Coil --- NS.
I haven't try  the distance of magnet corelation.

3. DC Current at + battery , for 2 LED 11 ma , for 6 LED 22 ma
4. Correct, pararel to get more drain (current)
5. Yes, if I remove the two 1N4148 diodes going to the battery/100uF capacitor, the led will the brightness/stonger. But i can't do it for long time because it' will burn the led if the led not tight on place (unsteady)

Voltage at output without load/LED and without  the two 1N4148 diodes going to the battery/100uF capacitor will 80 volt DC
Voltage at output without T02 (special coil/Motionless DC Generator/MDG) are 40 volt DC.
Voltage at output with LED and without  the two 1N4148 diodes going to the battery/100uF capacitor will 1.3xx volt DC and increase voltage in certain time

Charging will stop at certain voltage (i don't know why) maybe at balancing state.

zon

Quote from: zon on May 06, 2008, 07:04:13 AM
....
Voltage at output with LED and without  the two 1N4148 diodes going to the battery/100uF capacitor will 1.3xx volt DC and increase voltage in certain time

Charging will stop at certain voltage (i don't know why) maybe at balancing state.

zon

Hi Zon,

Thank you very much for your answers! 
I do not really understand where the output voltage is 1.3xx V DC?  Across the white LEDs when the two 1N4148 diodes are removed from the input?
If yes, then your meter shows wrong value because a white LED forward voltage drop usually around  3.1V when lit. It is possible your digital meter is fooled by both the pulse and the DC voltages coming from T02 in this case. Because without the two 1N4148 diodes in place the load at the output is less than when the diodes are in place, so the output pulse from T02 is also higher.

Thanks again,  Gyula

@Zon

QuoteConfiguration for magnet   NS --- Coil --- NS.
I haven't try  the distance of magnet corelation.
3. DC Current at + battery , for 2 LED 11 ma , for 6 LED 22 ma
4. Correct, pararel to get more drain (current)
5. Yes, if I remove the two 1N4148 diodes going to the battery/100uF capacitor, the led will the brightness/stonger. But i can't do it for long time because it' will burn the led if the led not tight on place (unsteady)

This is starting to make more sense now, the magnets being NS---Coil---NS will induce a polarity in the core of NS---(Coil NS)---NS, this would produce a point of neutrality(Bloch wall) in the middle of the core and between the core and the magnets.
Looking at your circuit it seems obvious what is happening, the small primary winding of the external toroid TO1 is feeding the secondaries of TO2 an inductive discharge, when the transistor turns off there is no path other than an inductive discharge into TO2. The diodes, high self-inductance windings and LED in TO2 form a HV tank circuit which stores energy in moving the bloch wall in the core. On discharge of TO2 the magnetic moment back to neutrality coupled with the high self inductance coils charges the small primary of TO1, it also charges the battery through the diodes on either side of the LED, with the 100nF cap dampening the high voltage inductive discharge to some degree. I think the most relevant point is that this circuit will always raise its potential through every step made by the current, at 80 or 90v in the working circuit we could say a majority of the working current is returned to the source battery. As well the magnets provide the necessary bias against the inductive discharge to efficiently store this energy but over time there may be issues with the magnets as the frequency of oscillation in the core of TO2 is probably pretty high.
I included a picture of what may be happening----red is conventional current, blue is the inductive discharge current, the green box is the external toroid TO1 which I believe may be the oscillator section. There is a lot happening in this little circuit ;)
I give it two thumbs up ;D   Good job

@All,

If you need a home made mini flash light then this is one way to make it.
The few components is soldered together inside the plastic top and bottom
from a used Duracell 9V battery. Use a side cutter to get the top plastic
with the battery connectors off, and also take out the bottom plastic. The
bottom plastic is drilled (5,5mm) for two ultra bright white LEDs. The
regulator need a little heat sink and the way to do that is by placing
the regulator at the + connector metal. I use a little heat sink silicone
compond between the regulator and the metal. The heat from the regulator
is then transferred down to the battery and dissipated to the environment.
The ultra bright LEDs has a full light output and a Duracell Ultra 9V battery
will light the LEDs for approx. 14 - 15 hours. This is not a free energy light,
just a fun project when you are bored and have nothing to do.

Groundloop.

@ Groundloop:

Nice project man!  I remember seeing something similar (but not as nice) in a catalog a year or so ago.  It had only one led and was not bright at all.  So with your design, you can just toss the dead 9 volt when consumed, and snap on a fresh one?  Or, use a rechargeable one?  Excellent!  You should make a video on how to do this and post it on Metacafe.  If you submit it to their "Producer Rewards" program, you can earn some decent money depending upon how many view it.  This project would be perfect for that.

Fantastic!

Bill

@Bill,

Thanks for the nice comment. Yes, the black part is the connector top from the old used up Duracell.
It has the snap on connectors. The bottom of the Duracell is blue plastic and is the top of my design.
It is plenty of room for two ultrabright LEDs. I use hot glue to secure everything in place after I have
tested that the led light. You get plenty of light from two LEDs if there is a power out. It is also a handy
light to have in your car to help you if your car breaks down in the middle of the night.

I think the smart thing in my circuit is the use of a voltage regulator. The light output of the two LEDs will stay
at full power until the battery is empty. (Below 5 volt.) Then the light will dim. If one use just a resistor
then the light will be very bright when the battery is full, but after a while the led will lose strength because
the battery voltage falls. This will not happen when one use a regulator.

I'm way too lazy to make a video.  ;D Money is not an issue. I do for the fun of this hobby.

Groundloop.

Hi Groundloop,

Very nice job!  Congratulations.

I would like to suggest an improvement for squeezing out the most power from the 9V Duracell and gain some more operating hours beyond what you indicated.
If you use an adjustable (and also a low dropout type) regulator, you can precisely set the output voltage, hence the current for the LEDs, without using the two diodes for the the voltage drop. This way the LEDs will be able to light full brightness till the 9V drops to as low as the forward voltage of the LEDs i.e to 3.6V plus the dropout voltage of  65 to 110mV.
See this link for one possible regulator type, out of many: http://www.national.com/pf/LP/LP38693-ADJ.html   (by using its ENABLE pin feature the on/off switching could be solved easily also,  though I understand the use of the snap on/off connector is good and simple).

rgds, Gyula

@gyulasun,

Yes it is possible to use an adjustable regulator. I did just use what I had in my box. LOL
With an adjustable regulator one can also more easy adjust the voltage for different
types of LEDs. If you look at the datasheet for the LM2931 then you will see:

Quote"The LM2931 positive voltage regulator features a very low
quiescent current of 1 mA or less when supplying 10 mA
loads. This unique characteristic and the extremely low
input-output differential required for proper regulation (0.2V
for output currents of 10 mA) make the LM2931 the ideal
regulator for standby power systems. Applications include
memory standby circuits, CMOS and other low power processor
power supplies as well as systems demanding as
much as 100 mA of output current.
Designed originally for automotive applications, the LM2931
and all regulated circuitry are protected from reverse battery
installations or 2 battery jumps. During line transients, such
as a load dump (60V) when the input voltage to the regulator
can momentarily exceed the specified maximum operating
voltage, the regulator will automatically shut down to protect
both internal circuits and the load. The LM2931 cannot be
harmed by temporary mirror-image insertion. Familiar regulator
features such as short circuit and thermal overload protection
are also provided."

So the regulator uses very little power by itself. It will also provide enough output to the LEDs until the 9V battery is falling below 5 volt.
The regulator also has an built in thermal overload protection. This is nice to have because the two LEDs is using approx. 50 mA and
the regulator gets hot. I have made a "heatsink" solution for the regulator since it is glued on top of the battery connector metal.

Groundloop.

Quote from: zon on May 04, 2008, 11:22:37 PM
Finaly, I get help from my friend to build special transformer/coil for combining "my circuit".
I have measurement for 4 days, yeah it's prove  my circuit not drain anymore.
Unfortunatly, i can't share the special coil setup because made by him (not my design), i only share the picture.
I'm only to say, it's posible to show free energy with electronic circuit and magnet.!

Now, the end of my adventure of "Led Lit for Long Long Time"  :)
I still on this forum.
See you on another energy experiment

zon

Note:
For "my circuit", i use same diameter coil, but different length only.
u can use different diameter coil that i use , but follow the length of coil (effect on the number of turn).
T01 i wound coil one by one,  not bifilar because not same length.

Hi Zon,
many thanks for your circuit and all the help.
Why don?t you try to scale this up with the help of your friend
to at least put out 3 Watts contineously and go for the
OverUnity Prize ?

Please continue to work on it and let us know,
if you can scale up this effect.
Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

@All

I saw a question about an NE1 or 2 being an active device. They are - very.
One of my first code practice oscillators used small ne's as the active devices. It used a small piezo buzzer as one of the caps. If you ever had an HV power supply that used the OA series tubes as regulators you will never think they are passive.
The circuit attached will have the lights firing in a sequence. You add more than three stages and they will likely fire at random. The neat thing about such a circuit is when you remove the power they generally fire again in reverse order - no power connected.

Neon lights are conductive long before they glow. Granted this information is old basic knowledge but still basic.

I'll wager the FE coil is nothing without the ne's nearby or without the magnets.

@all

Good news.
My friend want to share what reference he use for build T02.
Look at http://magnetism.fateback.com/Sweet.htm
I found that similiar coil setup (not exactly the same).

zon

Adding measurement for revision number 15

Voltage at output without load/LED and without  the two 1N4148 diodes going to the battery/100uF capacitor will 80 volt DC and 90 volt AC

Dear Groundloop,

Thanks for the further info on the regulator you have used and the reason I mentioned the adjustable regulator type is that approximately a further 2V will be available from the 9V Duracell  so it could be loaded down to about 3V instead of the 5V.
The other reason I mentioned  the LP38693-ADJ regulator (but there are several other and similar types of course) is because it has two attractive features especially useful for such linear regulator circuits:
-- its ground pin current remains below 100 ?A (typically 65 ?A) regardless of load current, input voltage, or operating temperature and
-- it has a typical 65mV dropout voltage when the load current is 100mA @ 3.3V output voltage
This means the dissipation hence the heat developed should be much less wrt LM2931.

I meant this info as an addition for those people who seek for better performance and I fully appreciate your excellent contributions on this forum and sincerely thank for it again.

Regards,  Gyula

Hi BEP and all,

Thanks for the unusual RC oscillator schematics with the neon bulbs. 

Recently I found a very good description on such neons on the net, it is about a 10MB PDF file:

Glow Lamp Manual by the General Electric Miniature Lamp Department Staff, second edition, 1966

Here is the link (be patient, slow server): http://www.tech-systems-labs.com/books/GE-lamps.pdf

Includes lots of useful info on theory and practice on these neon lamps, with oscillator and other circuit schematics too.

rgds,  Gyula

Quote from: Groundloop on May 06, 2008, 03:52:53 PM
@All,

If you need a home made mini flash light then this is one way to make it.
The few components is soldered together inside the plastic top and bottom
from a used Duracell 9V battery. Use a side cutter to get the top plastic
with the battery connectors off, and also take out the bottom plastic. The
bottom plastic is drilled (5,5mm) for two ultra bright white LEDs. The
regulator need a little heat sink and the way to do that is by placing
the regulator at the + connector metal. I use a little heat sink silicone
compond between the regulator and the metal. The heat from the regulator
is then transferred down to the battery and dissipated to the environment.
The ultra bright LEDs has a full light output and a Duracell Ultra 9V battery
will light the LEDs for approx. 14 - 15 hours. This is not a free energy light,
just a fun project when you are bored and have nothing to do.

Groundloop.

Wow, that's a cool little flashlight you've designed! You could take any old flattish 9V battery and just clip this on. In my local DIY store there's a big bin for people to throw their used batteries in, I'll bet there's plenty of Joules still in most of them, next time I'm in I might fish around in it like some battery hobo.

@Yucca,

My little clip on flash light will not light on dead 9 volt batteries.
It must be some charge in the battery. That said, most people
trow away their batteries long before the battery are empty, so the answer
is yes, you will probably find batteries in the bin that still are usefull
for some few hours of light.

@All,

Did anybody replicate the Sweet DTO circuit?

Groundloop.

@all
Here is my design favorite for highly efficient of led driver.
Easy to build and will run a couple of weeks with 24 hours lit on.

Coil setup:

Take 1.2 metres  of two wire the SWG 38 and SWG 35.
Wound together (bifilar).
Fill surrounded of toroid
At my toroid size will fill at 50 turns

After we make one layer coil, take 3.4 metres of the SWG 35
Wound on top of bifilar layer, same direction.
Make 2 layers,  at my toroid size will fill at 150 turns.

Now, we have coil with three layer, one layer of bifilar coil and two layers of feedback coil.
Covering the hole toroid with 2 magnets, configuration from bottom is   
     South-North  ?   Coil  ?   South-North

Current measurement at + battery  is 14 mA.
But running time not same with capacity battery mAH / 14 ma = xxx Hours.
It's longer than xxx hours
I don't know why ?

zon

Quote from: zon on May 29, 2008, 05:01:17 AM

Current measurement at + battery  is 14 mA.
But running time not same with capacity battery mAH / 14 ma = xxx Hours.
It's longer than xxx hours
I don't know why ?

zon

Hi Zon,

Thanks for these interesting infos.  For the time being I think the only possible answer for your 'why' question is that you found/experimented a good practical circuit for feeding back the flyback pulse energy of the coil to the battery so that the load on the battery is eased, its mAh capacity is extended out for a longer time periode.
Because if I am mistaken and you get any extra energy, then your battery at least would stay on a charged up state for several months due to the continuos trickle charge it receives back from the circuit.
OR if you could replace the battery for a few seconds with a 1F or 3.3F supercapacitor charged up in advance to around 1.274V and see how long the LED stays on with the same or similar brightness and measure the supercap voltage if it starts decreasing or increasing or just does not change:  This would prove for yourself if you have any extra output or not?

Would you measure the current that flows through your LED?  I am curious because its brightness seems stronger on your photo with respect to the total current of 14mA consumed (I know the angle of view can also be decisive on the brightness).

thanks,  Gyula

@all
sorry, i make mistake on  schematic drawing. See attachment for correction.


@Gyula
I will measure the current that flows through LED and disconnect LED with capacitor together, because if i disconnect without capacitor, the LED will burn. Output voltage without load is 20 VDC


zon

Hi Zon,

Ok on the schematics correction,  now the neon bulbs' connections make more sense for me, although I am still puzzled by the role of the third bulb in parallel with the LED:  usually a white LED has a 3.1-3.2V forward voltage drop and a neon bulb usually is a totally open circuit at such low voltages...  so what is its role?

Re on your earlier news:  Good news.
My friend want to share what reference he use for build T02.
Look at http://magnetism.fateback.com/Sweet.htm
I found that similiar coil setup (not exactly the same).

I ask if there is any further news on the T02 transformer?  Unfortunately I am puzzled by the reference link theory you gave the link.  Do you understand it?

Thanks, Gyula

@gyula

I haven't continue T02 transformer because it's not my design
Here is some clue (last answer), he never told me , why it's works.. he just built and go.


zon

Hi ZOn,

Thanks for the drawing, seems interesting and mysterious... :)

Have you managed to measure your LED current already?  Sorry I forgot to mention to switch the battery out before disconneting the LED for current measuring, otherwise voltage goes up high DC on the cap...

By the way, do you keep on operating your latest circuit for 3 weeks now and battery voltage more or less stays around 1.2..V ?

Thanks,  Gyula

Hi all
Mi circuit, zon revision 16:
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cobaltus.com%2Ffh%2Fsaaled_01.jpg&hash=99dd6d75534ce5712f94b4e73212b8aa306edbf0)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cobaltus.com%2Ffh%2Fsaaled_02.jpg&hash=164481e739a8182f53f53d9b5b332b8f7af5491b)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cobaltus.com%2Ffh%2Fsaaled_03.jpg&hash=b101b2aab42b529a5f2e2c9d562ab98ffc403d29)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cobaltus.com%2Ffh%2Fsaaled_04.jpg&hash=9cfeaca7d5d3fd5d1537d10fa4250bd8638fb29a)

The wire diameter is not accurate. The magnets (in a pic) are of an old hard disk. I ignore the distribution of the poles, i think left-right, not up-down :(

Observations:
BC549b drain 25.4 mA
MPS2222A drain 40.7 mA
2N2222A drain 61.8 mA

BC549b:
across Led: 2.9 V
2 Leds drain 25.8 mA

I don't observe effect with magnets, different sizes of magnets, battery drop slowly. But with strong magnet (see pic 3) if magnet touch wire the led not lights. I have used a (hitech ;D) cardboard separator.

Time   Battery V.
00:00  1.325
00:12  1.324
05:00  1.208
17:00  0.883


Regards, Hhx

Hi Hhx,

many thanks for the replication trial.

Well, as long as we don?t know the exact effect behind the circuit from user zon
and his friend, it is very difficult to get the same effect with different parts...

@zon,

what are your 2 hexagonal  magnets made of ?
Are these ferrite magnets ?
Where did you get them from ?

also what is the cut off text of your last circuit diagram at the top ?

Can you scale this circuit up,
so that it constantly light up 10 to 20  LEDs brightly from maybe 3 or 4 batteries
without dropping the voltage ?

If you can scale this circuit up into the 1 Watts range, that would be really great !
Many thanks.

Regardsm, Stefan.

Hi all

Quote from: hartiberlin on June 03, 2008, 10:37:29 AM
Well, as long as we don?t know the exact effect behind the circuit from user zon
and his friend, it is very difficult to get the same effect with different parts...

Yes, i agree. :)

Time   Battery V.
00:00  1.325
00:12  1.324
05:00  1.208
17:00  0.883
41:30  0.414
52:40  0.382  Stop exp. :(
Battery is old retired with internal resistance, no good state.
I have tested with battery in normal state, only low time tests.

New modification:
New wound bifiliar over old coil, both wire are same diammeter. Not effect in test.
I have replaced 1k resistor for 3k9 resistor and 1n5 capacitor.
Drain current: 9.7 mA (Aparently same light on 2 leds).
Battery drop slowly

Regards, Hhx

@all

At this moment, i share the basic coil setup what i do usually.
I get help my friend to ilustrate the coil setup (right corner side of schematic). Thanks for him.
Now, i use same diameter coil , SWG 35, 0.1230 mm.

Start, i wound (T) triger coil from lead no 1  to lead no 2 , minimum 20 turns
and then I wound (P) power coil from lead no 3 to lead no 4, minimum 3x times of (T) triger coil and must fill 1 circle. for my torroid size approx 70 turns.

After i make one layer coil, on top of them i wound 3rd/feed back coil, must start from lead no 1  and must fill minimum 1 circle, for my toroid size approx 90 turns. Now i have coil with 2 layers.

All  direction of wound coil all same, if u choice CW , all must CW

Aftet make the coil, setup other component and i get measurement at point A(+) to B(-) and C(+) to D(-). The result as a picture on file ledAtoB.jpg and ledCtoD.jpg.

Voltage at A(+) to B(-) is 27 VDC
and
Voltage at C(+) to D(-) is 115 VDC (always amazing to me)

That voltage without  load/super bright white LED.

With this basic coil setup i combine with all my eksperiment to send back "energy" to battery and play with magnet or neon NE2.

After now the lowest battery drain , i have build is 0.001 volt  per 1 hour

zon

Here is a sample schematic using my "basic coil setup".
Play with NE2 only , without magnet

Start , i charged battery with my carger until full charge.
I put in my gadget and measurement the voltage is 1.380 volt
Leave it drain for moment.
If the voltage come to 1.299 Volt, drain will steady arround 0.001 volt / hours
On my calculation if battery drain from 1.299 volt to 0.500 volt, it will raise 799 hours or 33.29 days


zon

Hi Zon,

I like your tests and your efforts and I'm following them already since some time. Unfortunately I don't find currently enough time to do my own tests, but that will be better soon.  :)
There is a conflict in your last descriptions.
Either you wrote:

QuoteAll  direction of wound coil all same, if u choice CW , all must CW

But the picture of the toroid with the 2 windings shows it different. The blue one is clockwise and the black one is counter clockwise.

What is the correct setup?

cheers
Martin

I check out , the ilustration. it's correct
1 to 2 (black one) he ilustrate to CCW wound
3 to 4 (blue one) CCW too.
if u choice CCW wound, all must same CCW wound

Actually , i always use CW wound

zon

outsch, you 're right.
I need to go in the same direction when I turn the wire...  :o

It looks like mixing up left and right  ;)
sorry for bothering

cheers
Martin

Hi all

@Zon
Thank you to share detailed information. I believe that it is very important to be able to replicate with success.

Regards, Hhx

Hi Harti_Berlin,

Quote from: hartiberlin on June 03, 2008, 10:37:29 AM
@zon,

what are your 2 hexagonal magnets made of ?
Are these ferrite magnets ?
Where did you get them from ?

Should I be mistaken, but, I have noticed that your questions were not answered.
Anyway, IMO, these (Neo, I guess) hexagonal magnets are from (old) computer disk.
The only problem is to 'unglue'/remove them safely.

I have tested some of the first Zon circuit with 6 LEDs with a 1.2 volts rechargeable bat.
It actually have, IMO again,  a 'non conventional' behavior.

Best

The magnet are magnet toys with brand RattlesnakesSoundEggs, made in china
http://www.made-in-china.com/trade-offers/offerviewrfnJYIxVuRZj/Sell-Rattlesnake-Sound-Eggs.html
They have some types, heart, bullet, sausage, coin and hexagonal as i use it.
I don't know the material.



zon

Quote from: hartiberlin on June 03, 2008, 10:37:29 AM
also what is the cut off text of your last circuit diagram at the top ?

Can you scale this circuit up,
so that it constantly light up 10 to 20  LEDs brightly from maybe 3 or 4 batteries
without dropping the voltage ?

If you can scale this circuit up into the 1 Watts range, that would be really great !

Sorry, cut off text come from resizing file, the text is 3rd Coil (part of previous schematic)
I try to open T02 coil and "learn it" but I missing label of lead and now T02 is disamble
I try to contact my friends again.

for  1 Watts range
If someone could help me, to convert my design for using source 6Volt and 12 Volt DC ?
I'm using battery 1.2 volt schematic because the basic design is The Joule Thief
I haven't a good electronic background. I'm only can play with bread board and coil/transformer :)


zon

Quote from: zon on June 11, 2008, 09:32:41 PM
The magnet are magnet toys with brand RattlesnakesSoundEggs, made in china
http://www.made-in-china.com/trade-offers/offerviewrfnJYIxVuRZj/Sell-Rattlesnake-Sound-Eggs.html
They have some types, heart, bullet, sausage, coin and hexagonal as i use it.
I don't know the material.



zon

Hi Zon,
I have a pair ( 2 pieces) of these oval shaped
rattlesnake magnets.
But where do you exactly get these hexagonal shapes ?
Or did you stick 6 pieces together to get a hexagonal magnet structure ?

I guess they are made from Hematite , which is some kind of IronOxid.

Quote from: zon on June 11, 2008, 09:59:55 PM
Sorry, cut off text come from resizing file, the text is 3rd Coil (part of previous schematic)
I try to open T02 coil and "learn it" but I missing label of lead and now T02 is disamble
I try to contact my friends again.

for  1 Watts range
If someone could help me, to convert my design for using source 6Volt and 12 Volt DC ?
I'm using battery 1.2 volt schematic because the basic design is The Joule Thief
I haven't a good electronic background. I'm only can play with bread board and coil/transformer :)


zon

You would need to get much bigger transformers then with much bigger cores
and much bigger magnets to extract more power...

Quote from: hartiberlin on June 11, 2008, 10:29:29 PM
I have a pair ( 2 pieces) of these oval shaped
rattlesnake magnets.
But where do you exactly get these hexagonal shapes ?
Or did you stick 6 pieces together to get a hexagonal magnet structure ?
I guess they are made from Hematite , which is some kind of IronOxid.

Yup, rattlesnake magnet hexagonal shapes, package in a pair (2 pieces).
Magnet size close to my torroid size


zon

My friend, introduce me about induction coil.
I try by my self to combine with my "basic coil" but my wire/coil not enough to make T02 (induction coil)
I try with bifilar T02 only 60 turns and 3rd coil of T02 only 90 turns
I'm still monitoring on it, i i get the wire i will build as my friend said.


zon

Revision no 20, I make mistake on T02, all pair of bifillar lead connected.
and correction on position T02.
I'm still monitoring and until now... more than 1 hours still not drain

zon


note: my T02 still not as my friend said, only 60 turns and 90 turns.
If u replicate it , please try directly to 150 turns and 200 turns.

hmmmm - don't think you intended your correction to short out the bifilar windings on TO2?

this friend of yours with the 'OU' circuit isn't called Randi by any chance?  ;)

rock steady, zon
sandy

---

Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc

wow, 2 hours pass (battery still not drain)...
most efficient !  (my last achievement, drain 0.01 volt every 1 hours)

Wow my battery drain again :(

Here is result with T02 only 60 turns bifillar + 90 turns 3rd.

Time          Volt
10.15        1.248
13.17        1.247
16.21        1.246

Average : drain 0.001 every 3 hours ......amazing!
Measurement at + battery : 13 mA

On my calculation , if I start from 1.299 volt  to 0.500 volt , drain 0.001 volt every 3 hours its mean
  1.299 - 0.500 = 799 * 180 minutes = 143820 minutes
  143820 minutes / 60 minutes = 2397 hours = 2397/24 days = 99.875 days (more than 3 months)

Wow great, most efficient i've got.

My question is, 13 mA * 2397 hours = 31161 mAH    , more than my capacity battery ?

I got my stock wire/coil, tonight i'll make T02 as my friends said.


zon

Maybe you guys can help me..
I make led hula hoops for my GF and her friends.. Right now i am powering them with 4 rechargeable AA batteries.
I am trying to make them cheaper for everyone..
I would like to make them powered by a single AA or 2 AA rechargeables with a drop in style battery holder.. Would i be able to use a circuit like this to power 21 LED's?

Here is my site with instructions how i make them right now.. any info would be greatly appreciated..
http://ledhulahoop.com (http://ledhulahoop.com)
Please email me with any suggestions or ideas, i am always looking for new ideas.

Go and check out my joule thief topic here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.0;topicseen

I have been able to light up to 400 leds from a single AA battery.  we have many circuits listed there that will do exactly what you are looking for.  I know it is a very long topic, but you can skim around and find exactly what you need.  If not, post there and ask, the folks there are very helpful.

Bill

awesome thanks.. Ill take a look.
I am new to building circuits.. is there a palce that i can buy wht i need pre-made?

Or maybe someone can just tell me what i need to do to power 21 LED 3.6V / 30ma   with 1 AA rechargeable.
How long it will last for?
etc....

dog:

Just introduce yourself on the topic there and tell folks what you are trying to do.  Then, go back and read as much of the topic as you can because it is all there. (someone will probably suggest this)  These are very simple circuits and just about anyone can replicate them.  Also, you can check out my youtube joule thief videos if you want.  Many others have them as well.  Some are very basic and simple and some are very advanced.  Just search youtube for my channel: Pirate88179.  I look forward to seeing you on our topic.

Bill

@ dog812

Check out a user named gadgetmall in the above thread that Pirate pointed you to, he has units for sale that will run a long time on 1 AA battery, he has his site in his signature, it's: www.sunpowerwindpower.com.

Regards,
Paul

Thanks for the info.. I just found these joule thiefs today.. so i am deffinetly going to do some research about them..
I had no idea this was even possible.
Thanks again..
any more info to point me in the right direction for my application would be greatly appreciated.

@ Dog:

Goat is correct.  I forgot that Gadgetmall had units for sale.  He really has some great stuff that he has developed and he is a really good guy.  If you want cheap light that last a really, really long time, the joule thief topic is the place to be.

Bill

hello sir how r u?
i am really impressed with youre interest and efforts for designing a very very eficient jt..or an overunity one...
sir i hava a small request from you do you know a samll 1.5v joule thief circuit which will run a white led brightely for more than 150 hrs?? or maybe 100 hrs???
ive been looking on this site for 4 days now but there ret many circuits and i am not sure which one is the most efficient.....sir,do u have the circuit of GadgetMall Joule Thief some 1 told me that its very very efficient and uses only 1 mili amp...
kindly please send me GadgetMall Joule Thief circuit if you have it or any other which according to you is useful for me...
thanks
here is my email address---
shubhamforme@gmail.com

regards
shubham

Quote from: shubhamforme on May 12, 2009, 01:08:23 PM
hello sir how r u?
i am really impressed with youre interest and efforts for designing a very very eficient jt..or an overunity one...
sir i hava a small request from you do you know a samll 1.5v joule thief circuit which will run a white led brightely for more than 150 hrs?? or maybe 100 hrs???
ive been looking on this site for 4 days now but there ret many circuits and i am not sure which one is the most efficient.....sir,do u have the circuit of GadgetMall Joule Thief some 1 told me that its very very efficient and uses only 1 mili amp...
kindly please send me GadgetMall Joule Thief circuit if you have it or any other which according to you is useful for me...
thanks
here is my email address---
shubhamforme@gmail.com

regards
shubham

I would recomend looking at the diagrams section on that topic.  You should try to build a very simple JT first and work your way up to some recent ones.  You will have a better understaing of how they work so you can come up with your own designs..  Who know maybe your design with be the most efficient ;)