with pure hydrogen running an engine i know rusting is a factor, but is it really with a booster?
i mean how much more rust do you guys think a hydrogen assisted car would have compared to not if they were both run from new?? i personally dont think it can be all that much more but this seems to be somewhat of concern. so this is what i thought of for assisted and purley run on hydrogen...
run the engine for the last predetermined amount of time on gas either switching hydrogen booster or full on hydrogen off ,and running just on gas to "dry everything up". or maybe we could modify a turbo timer to do the job....what do ya think???
The time when that would be a problem is when you're running a very lean mixture, or pure hydrogen. If you're running a booster, you shouldn't have a problem.
Yes, boosters are not a problem at all. I assume most cars crank shaft walls are made of Stainless Steel so those ones will be able to run a car on Hydrogen only.
The only place you would probably notice water would be in your oil. Anything in the combustion chamber will be dispensed out the tail pipe. The piston oil rings will wash off the rest from the cylinder. If you notice a white milky substance in your oil its water (or antifreeze then your really fked). It's usually normal for cold weather climates.
cool this settles me on the boosting... but what do you guys think of switching to gas for the last minute when running on soley hydrogen.... i know rust is an issue there
most newer head /pistons are cast/forged aluminum
With the idiotic price of oil, I have been researching this subject for awhile but have been become quite disillusioned with the amount of conflicting info that's out there. For instance, already in this thread there is at least one matter-of-fact statements about car running completely on hydrogen whereas the math makes it clear that to achieve this requires an enormous amount of hydrogen - far more than a booster could produce. There is more conflicting info regarding engine temp running on hydrogen. BMW's ceramic engine prototypes appears to have been the catalyst for the prevaling belief that hydrogen combustion results in higher temperatures, whereas the opposite appears to be the case, at least according to one respected OU forum member. Finally, and the basis of this thread, engine rusting due to hydrogen use. The current view seems to swing towards rusting will occur, whereas all 'normal' cars will produce copious amount of water vapour when started, and continue to do so until the engine is stopped, albeit, at a much reduced rate. Now, crack open an engine and there's no rust to be found! Finally, I ran a car with the head gasket gone on it for several months - it actually looked like one of those 'clown cars', the way the steam belched from the exhaust - when I finally got around to replacing the gasket, I was expecting the valves to be in a terrible state with rust , but it was not so - yes, there was rust, but not much, which surprised me considering the amount of water it was using...
I guess what I'm saying is that most of the 'wisdom' out there seems to have become sort of urban legends, passed along chain-letter-style by interested parties, most of whom have not actually tried it out in practice - at least that's how I read it...
Sprocket well what can we do about this ?
yeah i feel that, and i have not ran an engine on hydrogen... but i have read that if one did,it would only last for 4 years... i think alot of the stuff we read about,that conflicts with other things we read,often goes into the direction of common sense, but the thing of it is that there are enough people to be detered by negative connotiations,that if someone was to try to undermine this technology it could be easily done for the majiority of the populace. and even with the see it to believers they will often just side with the majiority, who usually have no knowlegde of whats really going on, all i was sayin is that if an engine was to rust ,aybe it could be changed back to gas for a second to eliminate any water vapor if any in the cylinder that would sit overnight...i personally dont think rust is an issue but i just wanted to hear what other people, who know shit, had to say about it... the non-believers that i talk to about boosting my car always mention rust, so i just wanted to hear from knowlegable people like yourselves..... thanks all !
well there is a guy running a chevy v8 on water with flash steam back to water this would be the real test of water in an engine and he has over 30000 miles on this car and at least 10 years I don't think water is the problem I think the ECM is the problem the distributer [in new cars ]is the problem having the nerve to experiment on your new car is the problem however keeping an eye open around this forum there are some really big things going on that are ready to pop this tech has only recently got to the point where the volume of gas might run a car Bob Boyce is supposed to show a car conversion in june Chet
The inside of an engine stays Well well well above the boiling point of water so how would water form inside of the piston chambers?
before i posted this forum, i fip floped in thinking it would rust or not and that^ was one of my self-reasonings it wouldnt rust theres plans for the bob boyce cell and how to hook up all the valves out there right now... if you havent seen this one but you probubly have...http://merlib.org/files/pgfed/D9.pdf
but you were probubly refering to the one on panacea right>?
VDU yes Bobs PDF is out and production is wild but its still evolving from raceboat to runs a car !! this is happening rite now [working out the bugs] also the water only flash plasma steam chevy v8 s1r9a9m9 would suggest water is a non issue in an ICE although in his case he does do preventative maintenance during long storage Chet
I am pretty sure I remember reading somewhere that petrol contains hydrogen in some form, which may explain the slight trickle of water comming from the tailpipe on some modern cars.
As for the combution chambers, the pistons are always constantly cleaning the cylinder walls. If you are worried about water stored after stopping the engine, running the engine for a few seconds after switching off should be enough to disperse any moisture from the cylinders.
The main issue would be the exhaust system, and/or the valves, and exhaust manifold.
good point Bulbz if the by product of hydrogen combustion is water short trips that don't heat up the exhaust system [which is a problem in gas engines] would be murder on an hho only system
Quote from: Bulbz on April 27, 2008, 01:25:59 PM
I am pretty sure I remember reading somewhere that petrol contains hydrogen in some form, which may explain the slight trickle of water comming from the tailpipe on some modern cars.
Carbon 83-87%
Hydrogen 10-14%
Nitrogen 0.1-2%
Oxygen 0.1-1.5%
Sulfur 0.5-6%
Metals <1000 ppm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum
It has a good amount of it. Some of that water is from condensation too. Seems like people saying a normal vehicle cant run on a mix of petrol/hydrogen is full of it. Once i have enough equipment and the right supply's to make sufficient hydrogen ill be doing tests on a number of engines. Also ill have the ability and know how to take everything apart and document everything.
Quote from: Dr.Greenthumb on April 27, 2008, 05:32:03 PM
Quote from: Bulbz on April 27, 2008, 01:25:59 PM
I am pretty sure I remember reading somewhere that petrol contains hydrogen in some form, which may explain the slight trickle of water comming from the tailpipe on some modern cars.
Carbon 83-87%
Hydrogen 10-14%
Nitrogen 0.1-2%
Oxygen 0.1-1.5%
Sulfur 0.5-6%
Metals <1000 ppm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum
It has a good amount of it. Some of that water is from condensation too. Seems like people saying a normal vehicle cant run on a mix of petrol/hydrogen is full of it. Once i have enough equipment and the right supply's to make sufficient hydrogen ill be doing tests on a number of engines. Also ill have the ability and know how to take everything apart and document everything.
Good for you, I'm planning the same thing, as soon as my local scrap metal merchant gets a few sheets of stainless steel laying about.
@vdubdipr: Personally, I think most of the conflicting stuff is deliberately put out there to dissuade people from trying this stuff. For instance, take the math issue - if this is true, then Stan Meyers and Daniel Dingel were frauds, which I certainly don't believe. Furthermore, 'conventional' electrolysis math has been telling us for decades that its uneconomical to even attempt running your car on hydrogen, and as a result, they are trying to force their 'hybrids' on us, where we end up paying for gas and hydrogen! Reeks of bigoil...
@ramset: I don't have any answers, just voicing an opinion.
Quote from: Dr.Greenthumb on April 26, 2008, 08:27:46 PM
The inside of an engine stays Well well well above the boiling point of water so how would water form inside of the piston chambers?
You obviously never had a head gasket fail. Water is pumped around the engine to cool it. When the gasket fails, this cooling water leaks onto the very hot head, turns to steam and is blown out the exhaust. This gasket failure is normally confined to a single cylinder, so any rust damage should be confined to this valve area. Generally, you need to have the whole head 'skimmed' anyway - mainly 'cos overheating will probably have occurred.
Straight hydrogen will not produce enough engine heat to evaporate moisture in the crankcase. Present engine design in autos are not sufficient for much more than 25% hydrogen. I have no idea were you can find a manufacturer that is presently selling a well designed engine. Prototypes heralded as the answer with dubious hours of testing are easy to get, finding one in production that has test units with 15000 hours or more on pure hydrogen fuel? I don't think that's available yet anywhere. I'm going to try water4gas when or if the check comes from this stimulus package. I would imagine the Mag system delivering enough hydrogen to fuel an engine has information on hardening an engine.If the info is anywhere look there.
I plan on running a turbo timer on my car, I don't want to take a chance of the massive amounts of water vapor in the exhaust rusting it out or the remaining vapor in the combustion chambers that have yet to be expelled rusting the valves, rings, pistons, walls, and/or cylinder head. I'm currently doing experiments with different electrolytes and electrodes for my HHO generator and have completely destroyed two stainless steel mesh drain covers so I would rather not take a chance on anything rusting over time. Truthfully, I don't care if there actually is no chance of anything rusting out due to my HHO/water vapor set up I'm still going to run full gas and zero HHO/water vapor on idle and for a minute or two after taking the key out of the ignition just for the piece of mind. In fact, the water vapor system is only going to be active while the cruise control is on to prevent unnecessary water accumulation in the engine during "city" driving.
This is my opinion, use it as you wish.